1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hello there. I am on holidays for a couple of weeks, 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: so I have hand picked some episodes that have been 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: my absolute favorites over the last two years to share 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: with you. I'll be back with brand new episodes in 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: two weeks time. I hit delete on almost every newsletter 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: I have found myself subscribed to, but I have never 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: hit delete on anything written by Eric Barker. Eric is 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: one of my favorite writers in the area of human behavior, 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: and I am not alone. Over three hundred and fifty 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: thousand people subscribed to his newsletter. Eric's the author of 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: Barking Up the Wrong Tree and more recently Plays Well 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: with Others, two books that take some of the most 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: fundamental ideas, platitudes, and niceties that society has to offer 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: and puts them under the microscope. Eric's convinced that too 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: much of the work coming out of the self help, 16 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: productivity and health arenas is vague and confusing, and he's 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: using his blog and his books to help make self 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: help feel more like an ike emmanual, which, trust me, 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: is a good thing. So given Eric is immersed in 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: human behavior research every day and writes about it for 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: the masses, I wanted to note which strategies he actually 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: uses himself. My name is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: And this is how I work a show about how 25 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. So Eric is 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: not a fan of work life balance, and I wanted 27 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: to know if he's not striving for balance, what is 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: he aiming for with his work life? 29 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I don't really believe work life balance. 30 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: I mean I think that I mean, in the end, 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: you're you're going to have to draw a line like 32 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: that's That's what it comes down to, is that you know, 33 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: the in the past, we we could have better work 34 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: life balance simply because you know, the office closed at 35 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: five pm, or you know, there was no email, the 36 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: mail only came once a day, the newspaper only came 37 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: once a day. It's like, now you can work as 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: long as you want to, you know, So in the end, 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: you you you kind of have to draw a line 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: yourself if you want it. But I don't know. For 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: me personally, imbalance is more of the way to go. 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: Like I well, I think if you if you really 43 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: want to, if you really want to excel. If you 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: really want to go hard on something, you know, I 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: think you need to devote a positively disproportionate, if not obsessional, 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: level of energy towards something. And and a lot of 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: people I think here that and they it's you know, 48 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: they they they might reject it, but I think actually 49 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: a lot of us live like that. It's just not deliberate. 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people, you know, miss that email, 51 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: miss that phone call, you know, maybe don't pay that bill. 52 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: They do let balls drop, but it's not deliberate, it's 53 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 2: not strategic. 54 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: Okay, So I like this idea. It's interesting of being 55 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: consciously unbalanced or imbalanced, and I think that for people 56 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: that are that way, there's often a lot of guilt 57 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: associated with it, but it sounds like for you there's not. 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: So how have you deliberately leant into that imbalance? Like, 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: how is your life deliberately crafted? Differently? 60 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: I think the issue here is having to face and 61 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: make tough decisions. I think one of the reasons why, 62 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: well why a lot of people want why a lot 63 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: of people do drop balls but they make it feel accidental, 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: is that prevents them from having to make hard decisions. 65 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: That prevents them from having to say, you know what, 66 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: I really don't want to talk to that person who 67 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: called me, and they if you have to say that 68 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: in order to make it low priority, you have to 69 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: make that decision and say, you know what, this isn't 70 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: that important. I know it's supposed to be important. I 71 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: know everybody tells me it's important, but it's really not 72 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: that important. And you have to make that decision for yourself. 73 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: So for me, like I know, you know, if I'm 74 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: working on a book, if I'm if I'm you know, 75 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: working promoting promoting a book, if I'm working on a 76 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 2: blog post, it's like every day I wake up and 77 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: I know what is number one, and for me, what 78 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: is number one is usually also number two, three, and four, 79 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 2: And so I am I try and structure my life 80 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 2: so that I am monotasking and I really don't have 81 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 2: to think about anything else, and most of what could 82 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: come up, like I said, I have already. I've already 83 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: become comfortable with like like like like a samurai, I'm 84 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 2: comfortable with the idea of death. I know this could happen. 85 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: That's fine. Now I can just move forward. And for me, 86 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: it's literally, uh, every day I wake up, and I 87 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: have a countdown time around my iPad and it's set 88 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: for five hours. And when I start working, I hit 89 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: the start button and it starts coming down from five hours. 90 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: And if I get up to pee, I hit the 91 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: pause button, and if I check email, I hit the 92 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: pause button. I have to take a phone call, I 93 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: hit the pause button, and by the end of the 94 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: day that needs to get to zero, and if it 95 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: doesn't get to zero, then I guess I got more 96 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: work to do. And it's that way. I know I've 97 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 2: designated this is what's work. And if you're doing anything 98 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: but work doesn't count. And because I think it's so 99 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: easy to rationalize, it's so easy to rationalize and trick yourself, 100 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: or you accomplish something and you feel good and then it's, oh, yeah, 101 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: let's I did six good minutes of work. I deserve 102 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: three days off, and like, it's all too easy to 103 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: do that, and this keeps me accountable and it's ruthless. 104 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 2: It's ruthless, but it works five hours. 105 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 1: I am freaking out about that. So I do deep 106 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: work sprints almost every day of one to two hours 107 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: in length, typically closer to sixty to nineteen minutes in length, 108 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: and maybe two or three of those and then sort 109 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: of the day we'll progress into more shallow work. So 110 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: why five hours that seems like a lot in a way. 111 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: Well, like I said, it's not one continuous stretch. I 112 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 2: can take a break whenever I want, but you know, 113 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: and I could take a break, I do whatever I 114 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: have to. So five hours of solid work usually takes 115 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: more like eight to ten hours if I'm really kicking. 116 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: If I'm really kicking ass, it's like I could do 117 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: it in seven. But no, it's like I mean, part 118 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: of that is a cumult like is built up stamina 119 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: over time, where you know, once you can do it, 120 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: And part of that is like definitely the you know, 121 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: I always prioritize, what I use the technical term of 122 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: thinky work, thinky work that I have to use a 123 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: lot of cognitive forest power for that always comes first, 124 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: you know, And by the end of the five hours, 125 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 2: you know, maybe it is you know, looking at research 126 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: or something. It's not busy work. It still has to 127 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: be something like constructive, you know, but it definitely tones 128 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: down from like really active. I can probably only like 129 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: really focus on like solid writing probably for three to 130 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: four you know, But it needs to be contributing to 131 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 2: the to the bottom line and in that sense, and 132 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: the other good thing about it is if you are 133 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: the super productive, uh somewhat anxious type, then you know 134 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: you can you can do a lot of stuff, but 135 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: you can get to that place at the end of 136 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: the day where you're like, like, did I really get 137 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: stuff done? Did I really move the needle? Did I? 138 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: And that five hours and that prioritization, like when that 139 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: when that buzzer goes off and that bell rings, like 140 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: there's no guilt. I did fine. I know I did 141 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: five hours, you know, pausing for anything that was not 142 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: worth and I'm done. I am done, and I can 143 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: relax because otherwise I would drive myself crazy? 144 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: And what else do you do to help optimize those 145 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: five hours in terms of planning for what you will 146 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: do during that time? 147 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: I mean, well, a lot of people can give you 148 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: the short term kind of okay, Like I said, do 149 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: the think you work first, do the like I think. 150 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: I think the advice that I'd rather give people, which 151 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: I think is less discussed and I think should be 152 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: more discussed, is while I am involved in pretty much 153 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: any project, like I have a I have a like 154 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: a word doc open where I am kind of taking 155 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: notes regarding process and stuff. I call it kind of 156 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: like the Book of Me, where basically it's like instead 157 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: of these all purpose, generally good sort of advice tips, 158 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: these are like specific to me where it's like, you, Eric, 159 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: you are going to tell yourself that you will get 160 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: to this later and you never do, so do not 161 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: fool your s. It's like it's like it's like Doctor 162 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: Jekyl like chaining himself when he knows that mister Hyde 163 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: is coming, where it's like, okay, how do you lie 164 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: to yourself? What are the rationalizations you usually tell? Like, oh, 165 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 2: you know what today, I'll start off with something simple. 166 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: I can do that really hard work. Late, No, you can't, 167 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: and you know it, and we have. If you look 168 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: in the notebook here, you've written this down four times 169 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: that you thought you could do it and you never 170 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: did it. And I think that's the advice that no 171 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: book can ever ever ever give you, no guru can 172 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: ever give you, no blog post can ever give you. 173 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: Is your own idiosyncrasies. You know nobody can kind of 174 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: maybe a spouse might have some clue or something, or 175 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 2: a partner you live with but overall, really that's there 176 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 2: is an enormous amount of good advice that can only 177 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: come from you to you, and you need to write 178 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: it down. You need to write it down, You need 179 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 2: to review it because otherwise you will rationalize and you 180 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 2: will tell yourself things and to have answers to those 181 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: questions to be able to say, you know what, taking 182 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: you know, an extra day off? Is that the kind 183 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: of thing that you come back and you are energized 184 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: and ready to go, and it's such a good idea. 185 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: Or you take a day off and all of a sudden, 186 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: you just took three days off and you did, like 187 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: which kind of person are you? That can have different 188 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: effects on people? If you start writing down I know 189 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: that this happens. I know if I wake up after 190 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: this hour, you know, stuff doesn't get done. If I 191 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: go to bed this night, Eric, that third drink is 192 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: not a good idea, you know, just like having that 193 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: list is so powerful and like I said, it's it's 194 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: advice that only you can give you. And then reading 195 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: a lot of productivity stuff like all of a sudden 196 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: an easy way to implement it. Because once you start 197 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 2: having these personal rules and you and you like I 198 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 2: said you, you real man, today went really badly? What 199 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: did I do? And then you can say, oh, I 200 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: did X. You make a note, and all of a sudden, 201 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: the structure creates itself because like it or not, you're 202 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: kind of a b testing. You know, maybe you woke 203 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night and couldn't get 204 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: back to sleep. Okay, you're going to learn something today. 205 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: Maybe you overslept today. Okay, you're going to learn something today. 206 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: And every time I get a tip, I can now, 207 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, it can slot right in like oh, 208 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: they say break should be this long, and let me 209 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: try that. Oh that didn't work, And you can like 210 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, and then what you find is 211 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: it just kind of all comes together like voltron, Like 212 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: you got all the pieces and they're just kind of clicking, 213 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: because all of a sudden, you have these rules and 214 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: you you sort of know, you sort of know what works. 215 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: And as long as you read the Bible of you, 216 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: then your productivity religion will stay sacred. 217 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: You write a lot about happiness in general and just 218 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: how to live, you know, a life that is, you know, 219 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: less stressful and more mindful, being more present, being more grateful, 220 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: and being being happier and those sorts of topics. What 221 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: have been some of the tips and strategies that have 222 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: impacted you the most in those areas. 223 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: First, let me caveat by saying that I'm terrible about 224 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 2: all these things. I just like it's it's funny because 225 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: I'll meet people who read my blog and I just 226 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: I feel bad because I think they expect me to 227 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: be a guru or something, and like I am, I 228 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: am not. I am looking for these answers for the 229 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: same reasons other people are. I. You know, it's like 230 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: that's why I started. You don't build an iron Man 231 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: suit because you're invulnerable. You build an iron Man's suit 232 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: because you're not invulnerable. And you know, I started down 233 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: this journey because I have trouble with these things. But 234 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: I have to say that, you know, as cliche as 235 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: it may sound, pausing, stopping whatever the heck crazy thing 236 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 2: my circus brain is doing, and just thinking about the 237 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: good stuff in my life and feeling gratitude like it 238 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: is an enormous perspective shift, and that I mean, your 239 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: mileage may vary, but you know, the study show it's 240 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: it is one of the single most powerful things you 241 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: can do. And for me, that perspective shift is enormous 242 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: because I am the type who will just go on 243 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: to the this is good, this is done, great, Okay, good, 244 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: we want to know about prize? That's nice? What's next? 245 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: You know, like I won't really like appreciate like a 246 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: lot of things. And and it's it's crazy, it's great. 247 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 2: Like gratitude is so powerful simply because we spend so 248 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: much time trying to do things to be happier that 249 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: oh I have to get this, I have to accomplish that. 250 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: I have to you know, you have to like reach 251 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: out and to gratitude doesn't cost anything. It doesn't costs 252 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: a damn thing. You just have All you have to 253 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 2: do is change your perspective. And it's right there waiting. 254 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: You just have to just put a different lens on it, 255 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: you know. And just you know, I had some internet 256 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: trouble today, you know, driving me crazy this morning. You 257 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 2: know what, it could have been so much worse, you know, 258 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: it just it resolved itself in the end. Didn't have 259 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: to you know, it didn't have to go buy a 260 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: new cable modem, didn't have to have a repairman comment. 261 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: It's like it could have been so much worse. I 262 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: am thankful that it did not. It was not worse, 263 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: and just taking a moment to switch that perspective. It's 264 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: all you have to do. It's free, it's right there waiting, 265 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: and trust me, I forget to do it at least 266 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: as much as anybody else does. But it really works, definitely. 267 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: And your latest book is Cold plays well with others 268 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: and it's awesome. I would expect nothing less though, and 269 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: it's hilarious, like all your writing. I'm so curious about, 270 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: particularly business writers that use humor, because sadly it is rare, 271 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: and I think it was a couple of years back, 272 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: I got to speak to Naomi Bagdonis, who was one 273 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: of the co authors of Humor Seriously, and it was 274 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: really interesting hearing her process for making Humor Seriously funny. 275 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: And that would have been like quite odd if it wasn't. 276 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: But you're writing like I'll laugh out loud when I'm 277 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: reading your newsletter, which I've subscribed to for many years. 278 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: How was your process for building so much humor into 279 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: your writing, Like I want to know, does it come 280 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: naturally or are there kind of tricks and formulas and 281 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: things that you're consciously using. 282 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: So happy you asked this question nobody, but I get 283 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: a lot of compliments in the humor, but nobody ever 284 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: asked me about the process regarding it. And I mean, 285 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: you know, I was a screenwriter in Hollywood for ten 286 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 2: years before I ever started blogging or stuff like that, 287 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: and so like, you know, like writing comedy was something 288 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: that I worked on assiduously for a long time. But 289 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: more specific, more specific to what you said it like, 290 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: is this you know, like come to this coum naturally 291 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: or is it like really hard? The answer is both. 292 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: I mean, like very often, you know, very often, like 293 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: my first perspective will be to like, rather than just 294 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: stating something plainly or just like what did I see 295 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: in the book here, I'll ask myself, like, Eric, what's 296 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: your perspective on this? Because I know whatever crazy thing 297 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: comes out of like my brain, like I'll just be okay, 298 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: Like there is an aspect of me saying like, oh, okay, 299 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: like what should I not be saying now? And I 300 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: will and it'll just be like thank God for everything. 301 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: But there's a part of it that's natural. But there's 302 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: also a part of it where you know, I'm always 303 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: looking for different perspectives. I'm always looking at, you know, 304 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: just different ways of seeing things. And sometimes, you know, 305 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: jokes are funny lines and stuff will occur to me, 306 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: and I'll keep a list, you know, And I'll also 307 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: keep like we're s thoughts, ideas, metaphors, like funny things 308 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: that occur to me where I'm like, oh that's a 309 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: and I have, you know, much my process list. I 310 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: also have my joke list and it is obscenely long, 311 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: and I will just go through it and I'll just start. 312 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: I keep a lot of lists like that, like for 313 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: both of my books. I have a lot of illustrated 314 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: stories there to like try and just you know, make 315 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: clear on a more visceral level, like the what the 316 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: research is conveying and those stories. You know. I'll just 317 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: be reading articles, I'll be reading books. I'll come across 318 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: something and make a note, and then when it's book time, Oh, 319 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: get out the story list and let's go to town. 320 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: And so there is an aspect that for all humor, 321 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: that that is very spontaneous for me. And then there 322 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: is a time where I will literally, like a sitcom writer, 323 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 2: I will look at a blog poster, I'll look at 324 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 2: a section in my book. And I will look at 325 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: it much like a like a like a showrunner on 326 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 2: a sitcom. I'll just be like it two jokes per page. 327 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, we got to bring that up a 328 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: little bit. Let's say, oh, three jokes per page? Doing 329 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: good here? Like I will say, you know, not really there, 330 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: or is there another way to get this across, you know, 331 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: or like just something where because I find it makes 332 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: such a difference. It makes such a difference, Like if 333 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: people wanted to just read completely straight up research, they 334 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: could do that. It's out there. People don't want to. 335 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: It's like, you want something accessible, you want something fun. 336 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: And that's how I see. I don't have a p 337 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: I got. I have a PhD from the University of nowhere. 338 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: You know. It's like for me, it's I'm a translator. 339 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: Like I take the stuff and I try and you know, 340 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: ad add a little bit of sugar and make the 341 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 2: medicine go down, Like, try and make it accessible, try 342 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: and make a fun, try and make it human. And 343 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: how I keep trying. 344 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: How do you know if it's going to land? I 345 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 1: remember in your acknowledgement section, and your acknowledgement section is 346 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: funny my god, like literally every part of the book 347 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: is funny. There was this great quote, and if I 348 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: was an organized podcast host, I would actually have my 349 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: iPad sitting next to me is where your book is 350 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: stored that has the actual quote, but it's something like 351 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: like oh no, you can, you do you have it 352 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: in front of you. It's the one about like writing 353 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: a joke and not knowing if it lands for two years. 354 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 2: Writing a book is like telling a joke and having 355 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 2: to wait two years to find out if it was funny. 356 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I love that quote, and like for you, 357 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: how do you know if it's going to land? If 358 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: all these jokes are going to land? 359 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is that my writing process is bonkers, 360 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: like like, and it's not bonkers because it's like, oh 361 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: I am an artiste and I'm like, you know, no, 362 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: I am like like a machine. Like most almost every 363 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: rater I know does like a vomit draft where they 364 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 2: just kind of like, you know, because most people are 365 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 2: much more comfortable editing than they are creating. Most people 366 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: are much more comfortable, you know, even if they like 367 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 2: have to knock out this like very mediocre initial draft, 368 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: but then they have something to hang things on to 369 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: build from. They've got a foundation. Most people are much 370 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: more comfortable with that. But I don't like that that 371 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: like to me, I take I take more of an 372 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 2: architecture perspective, where you would never be like, hey, let's 373 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: build a crappy building and then we'll knock it down 374 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: and then we'll build a good one. Like you would 375 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: never do that, you know. It's like what you do 376 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: in architecture is you have blueprints and you rigorously to 377 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 2: the millimeter, you know, just figure out, okay, this and 378 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 2: the screws need to be this long. We need this 379 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: for the you know, for the for the water line, 380 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 2: the power line. And so my outlines are longer, often 381 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: much longer than the book itself. And like I am constantly, 382 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: like you know, outlining and outlining and outlining and so 383 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: so my first drafts are not really first drafts. They're 384 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: more like third or fourth drafts. You know, they're like 385 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: ninety percent of the way they are. But it takes 386 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: me forever, like months, till there's pages. And then in 387 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: a handful of days, boom there's all these pages, and 388 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,239 Speaker 2: people are like, how long do they take you? Right, 389 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: there's pages, and I'm like, oh, three days. No, it's 390 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: not to be four months of outlining, you know. But 391 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: like so for me, it's really about that outline and 392 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 2: going this happens, and this happens, and this happen, and 393 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: I've gone over it so many times, you know, in 394 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: that outlining prost because it's not this organic type of 395 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: ty type of ty type of the type of tip type, 396 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 2: and then edit, edit it. Like for me, my my 397 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: first drafts are very close to the finished product because 398 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: I've spent so much time going to this goes first, Okay, 399 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: this goes before that? No way, Okay, what's going to 400 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: segue from this to this? It's for me, it's like Tetris, 401 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: and like I take so long agonizing over that that 402 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: it gives me a pretty good idea of what will 403 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 2: work and what won't. And yeah, it's it's mostly in 404 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: the outlining. And then I have a good friend who 405 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: is far, far, far more risk averse than than I am, 406 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: and he will read it and he will say, oh 407 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: my god, you can't say that, And fifty percent of 408 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: the time I'll listen to him, and fifty percent of 409 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: the time I'll go, well, hey, probably just lost another 410 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 2: one hundred email subscribers poll. 411 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: We will be back soon with Eric talking about the 412 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: strategies he uses to deliberately deepen relationships in his life 413 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: and also how to get better at reading other people. 414 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 415 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where 416 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve 417 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: your life. You can sign up for that at Amantha 418 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot substack dot com. Now, 419 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: your book is all about really connecting with others and 420 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: friendships and relationships, and you know, there's a whole section 421 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: on making friends, which is a topic as an adult 422 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: that I'm really interested in because, like, it's easy to 423 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: make friends, fairly easy when you're at school or you're 424 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: at university, and maybe in the work place, but you 425 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: know a lot of us don't even work in an 426 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: office now. So I'd love to know how you've applied 427 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: what you learnt in researching and writing your latest book 428 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: around making friends as an adult. 429 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it was funny because the well morbid funny, 430 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: I guess. But this deal from my book closed February 431 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: twenty eighth, twenty twenty and two weeks after the deal 432 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: from my book closed like California where I live, completely 433 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 2: locked down, and so I had already done the proposal. 434 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 2: I was sat on writing a walk about relationships. But 435 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 2: two weeks after I closed the deal was round to go. 436 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, it took on an entirely new meaning. 437 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: It was just like, oh, this is the next thing 438 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: I next. It was the next book I'm writing about. 439 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 2: It's like, oh my god, people are gonna need this. 440 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 2: I mean, I know I need this, My friends know 441 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: I need this, my ex girlfriends know I need this. 442 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: Uh but like you know, I mean i I'm like, wow, 443 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: people are really going to need this. And so like 444 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 2: it became this really important thing to me. And you know, 445 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: making friends when you're an adult is really hard, and 446 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: we don't like to talk about it, you know we 447 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: I think we don't like to discuss just how difficult. 448 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: Like you said, like when you're a kid, it's kind 449 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: of default. You know, you start school and it's like hey, 450 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: there you are, and you know work to a degree. 451 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 2: But as an adult, you know, as I write in 452 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: the book, it's like, you know, usually it's around people. 453 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: When people get married. Usually they get married, you gather 454 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: all your friends together and they prompably never see them again. 455 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: You know, it's like that's really tricky and it's really tough. 456 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: You know. For me personally, I'm lucky that I have 457 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: some really, some really good friends, and I have not 458 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: given that. I was, you know, crazed writing a book, 459 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: and now I'm you know, crazed promoting a book. What's 460 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: really been good for me is that this has given 461 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 2: me like kind of a natural, organic reason to start 462 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: reaching out to a lot of people, you know, And 463 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 2: so I was going to have to contact people anyway, 464 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: and now I've maybe I'm not making as many new friends. 465 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 2: But for me, it's about there are some relationships that 466 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: went dormant. There's some people I didn't connect with during 467 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: the pandemic, and there's some great friendships that I want 468 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: to sustain. And I've been putting a lot of energy 469 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 2: into that because in the in the book, you know, 470 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 2: I do mention, you know, like the Dale Carnegie stuff 471 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: about like making new friends. But you know, for me, 472 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 2: it's really about deepening friendships. It's about getting those friends 473 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: that really matter. As Aristotle called friends, he said that 474 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: they were another self. And you know, after two thousand 475 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: years science got around to proving him right. You know, 476 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: It's that's what I'm missing, you know, I'm I'm not 477 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 2: necessarily in the market for new acquaintances, but like having strong, 478 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: reliable friends I can trust, you know, I don't know 479 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 2: a lot of the things. The past few years, including 480 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: the pandemic, have told me how important it is to 481 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: just have those deep, meaningful relationships. And that's that's what 482 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: I find myself really working on. 483 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: What strategies have you used to deliberately help deepen relationships? 484 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: I mean, the two key ones I talk about in 485 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: the book, like really do the trick for me? And 486 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: you know, because Dale Carnegie talks about the easy stuff. 487 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: That's why we like the book because his stuff is 488 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 2: easy to do, but it's really only good for the 489 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: beginning of relationships. To deepen relationships, we need to send 490 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: what economics refers to as costly signals, you know, and 491 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 2: they're costly because they you know, by being costly, they're 492 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: hard to replicate and that tells you that they're meaningful. 493 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: And those two costly signals when it comes to friendship 494 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: are time and vulnerability. You know, time is costly because 495 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: it's scarce. You know, if I if I talk to 496 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: someone for an hour every day, I can look that 497 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 2: for twenty four people end the story the end, that's it. 498 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 2: Thanks for calling, you know, they're say I do need 499 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 2: to sleep, So like that's a costly signal when you 500 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: routinely get people your time. And second is vulnerability is 501 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, the quickest way that we can build trust 502 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,239 Speaker 2: with others is to show them our own trust. And 503 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: if we tell people something that is personal, something something 504 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 2: that scares us, something that might make us look bad, 505 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: if we trust somebody with that, you know, that says 506 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: I'm trusting you, and most likely, very often good friends 507 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: will reciprocate. And that's how you deepen friendships. That's what 508 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: Arthur Aaron, It's Donybrook University found. There's a research by 509 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: Jeff Hall that shows just how long it takes dozens 510 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: or hundreds of hours to build good friendships. But Arthur 511 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: Aaron was able to make people feel like lifelong friends 512 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: in forty five minutes. And he did it by having 513 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: people be vulnerable, by having people open up, say the 514 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 2: things that are scary, say the things they're feeling. And 515 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 2: we've got a good reason to Now we've all been 516 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: through some scary cold emotional stuff with the pandemic. So 517 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: we should we should take this this opportunity to do it. 518 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: And that's what I've been doing, is I've been I've 519 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: been more. Hey, I got my five hour countdown for 520 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: my writing, you know, and I try to make sure 521 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 2: to make time for my friends, you know, in the 522 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: same in the same way, like evenings are set aside 523 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: in you know, for that vulnerability I as ill right 524 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 2: about in the book. I now follow the scary rule. Uh, 525 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: if it's scary, I say it. And you know, as 526 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: I do, say, be incremental, don't confess any murders at 527 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: Christmas dinner. But like it's it's you know, be incremental. 528 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: But but uh, you know, I've I've I've I've played 529 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: the distant, tough guy for many years and frankly, it 530 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: didn't work out too well for me. So, you know, 531 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: opening up and being a little more honest about what 532 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 2: I'm dealing with. I find it's a good litmus test. 533 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: I find it's a really good litmus test because if 534 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: people react well to it, they're probably a good friend. 535 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: Then if they don't react well to it, well, I 536 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: just learned something you talk. 537 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: About quite quite a lot of research in the book 538 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: around how people are surprisingly bad at reading other people. 539 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, after knowing all that research and writing 540 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: about it in the book, how have you become better? 541 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: I guess reading other people knowing what's going on in 542 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: their minds. 543 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: Well, we're doing a podcast right now, and you know, 544 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: one of the big big things I point out there 545 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: is that deliberately attempting to read body language is you know, 546 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: it's false. God really doesn't work out that well. But 547 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: the voice is very telling. You know, if you can 548 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: hear someone but you can't see them, empathic accuracy only 549 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: drops off about four percent. But if you can see 550 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: someone you can't hear them, empathic accuracy drops off fifty 551 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 2: four percent. So the voice is really what's telling us versus, Oh, 552 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: we moved his eyebrow. That means he's nervous. It's like, no, no, no, 553 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: it's all of that. You know, you never know if 554 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: somebody's shivering because they're nervous, because they're cold, like, you 555 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: can't be sure, and especially with strangers, we don't have 556 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: a baseline. You know, it's much more about the voice, 557 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: and it's much more about you know, outside influences, bringing 558 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: other people into the mix, putting people in new environments, 559 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, saying provocative things like those are the things 560 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: that really gives us. Because our reading ability for others, 561 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: nobody's going to be Sherlock Holmes. You know, it's it's 562 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 2: way too hard to passively read others. But what we 563 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 2: can do is strategically make others more readable. What we 564 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: can do as well, is we can increase motivation. You know, 565 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: if we're focused, if we see some gainer reward, people 566 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: are much better at reading others on a first date 567 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: because again, there's something to gain. So if we can 568 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: put ourselves in that mindset of like, you know, having 569 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: something to gain or lose, get focused, that can help. 570 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: But in the end, the game is really one by 571 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: making others more readable, not by trying to prove our 572 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: very poor reading skills. 573 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: Now, this is probably like asking you to choose your 574 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: favorite child. But are there like one or two kind 575 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: of top things that you learned in the book that 576 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 1: have really changed you know, how you see, or how 577 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: you think about or how you do you know, relationships 578 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: and human connection. 579 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: Now, the one thing you know that that was very 580 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: insightful to me and I think very useful to other 581 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: people coming out of the pandemic is that there was 582 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: There's work I talk about by fail Bertie who's a 583 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: historian at the University of York, and she basically said 584 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: that before the nineteenth century, loneliness, both as a topical 585 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: word and pretty much an experience, pretty much didn't exist. 586 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: Now that sounds categorically and scene, but she goes through 587 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: and you can find the word lonely in books, but 588 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 2: what it means is something that is by itself. It 589 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: doesn't have the negative emotional connotation that we add to it. 590 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: And it was only in the nineteenth century when we 591 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: had the rise of individualism, a lot of isms, you know, capitalism, existentialism, 592 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: all these you know, much more individualistic society because before 593 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, people felt like they were a part 594 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 2: of a religion, they're part of a nation, part of 595 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: a tribe, part of a family, part of a group. 596 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: Like we were very much enmeshed and embedded, you know, 597 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: in these groups. And it was just interesting because it 598 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: tied in with a lot of very modern research on 599 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: loneliness where John Cacioppo, who's the leading leading researcher on loneliness, 600 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: he found that lonely people don't spend any less time 601 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: with other people than non lonely people do. Again, another 602 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: thing that sounds categorically insane, Yet we've all felt lonely 603 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: in a crowd, and that tells you right there that 604 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: just having people like having people around you is great. 605 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: But just having people around you, that's not enough to 606 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: cure loneliness. You can still feel lonely in a crowd. 607 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: And that's because loneliness is a subjective experience. Loneliness is 608 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 2: how you. Loneliness is not mere isolation, because solitude, solitude 609 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: is being alone. In solitude we regard as a positive. Solitude, 610 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 2: you know, is really strongly tied with creativity, while loneliness 611 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: is correlated with pretty much every negative health metric you 612 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: can imagine. Solitude. According to VIVEC. Murphy, the Surgeon General 613 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: of the United States, solitude is you know, a very 614 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: very positive for you. So being alone it's not about 615 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: being alone. Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships. 616 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: And if you feel good about your relationships, then being 617 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: by yourself is solitude, And if you feel negative or 618 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: bad or concerned about your relationships, then being alone is loneliness. 619 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: And the fact that that difference is a mere perspective shift, 620 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: and it can be a big one to change if 621 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: you're harmed by it. But that it's a perspective shift 622 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: that has really change something for me because if I 623 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 2: start to feel lonely, you know, sure I can spend 624 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: more time with other people, but to me, that's a 625 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: canary in the coal mine. To me, that makes me say, Okay, 626 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: how am I feeling about my relationships and what do 627 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: I need to do to address that? How can I 628 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: change that feeling? Sure I can spend more time with 629 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 2: other people, but again the lonely in the crowd issue, 630 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 2: So I need to make sure that I feel I'm 631 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: a part of something, not be a part of something 632 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 2: on paper, not letter of the law, spirit of law, 633 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: Like what do I have to do? What do I 634 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: have to contribute? What do I have to add to? 635 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: How? 636 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: Where can I feel responsible? Where can I feel necessary? 637 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: Where can I feel that like you know, I'm adding 638 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 2: something and that if I wasn't there, people would miss 639 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 2: me and people would miss my contribution. How can I 640 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: add to that to that group, that community. So that's 641 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 2: been a really powerful insight for me and how I 642 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 2: think about my relationships is whether I feel solitude or loneliness, 643 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: especially being a very introverted guy. That has been a 644 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 2: really powerful insight from the book in terms of what 645 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: next steps I take relationship wise. 646 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: I love that I found that very powerful in the 647 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: book when when I read that as well, also being 648 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: someone that is quite introverted. Now, Eric, I don't know 649 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: where time is gone, but it has gone, and I 650 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: would love to note for people that want to connect 651 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: with you and read your brilliant, brilliant newsletter which I 652 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: just whole whole, wholeheartedly recommend. I've been subscribing for years 653 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: and I love it and also get their hands on 654 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: plays well with others? 655 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: How do they do that plays well with others? Is 656 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 2: available on Amazon and a Barnes Noble, whatever bookseller should 657 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 2: be out there. My first book is Parking Up Throwing Tree. 658 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 2: My website has a very difficult to pronounce URL. It's Japanese. 659 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 2: It's a Japanese inside joke. I wasn't exactly thinking like 660 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: good marketing when I came up with the name for 661 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: my r L not. I didn't expect it to become 662 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 2: what it did. Then maybe I would have would have 663 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 2: given that anyway, you can either google my name Eric Barker, 664 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 2: or if you go to Eric Barker dot org E 665 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 2: R I C B r kr dot org that will 666 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: redirect you to my blog with its very unique r L. 667 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,959 Speaker 1: We will link to all that in the show notes. Eric. 668 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for taking the time 669 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: to have a chat. I had high expectations, even though 670 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: you told me to have very low expectations. You've exceeded 671 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: lower expectations, and you've acceeded my high expectations. So it's 672 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: been an absolute pleasure. Please keep writing more and more 673 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: things that make me laugh and make me smarter and 674 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 1: have a more awesome life. So thank you so much. 675 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 2: Thank you. This has been great. 676 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: I loved Eric's five hour time as strategy. That really 677 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: was the thing that stuck with me from this interview. 678 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: It's definitely something that I am planning on trying this 679 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: week in my own life, partly as an experiment to 680 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: see how much deep work I actually get done in 681 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: a day, but also to be disciplined in stopping it 682 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: when I'm doing shallow or less valuable work. Thank you 683 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: for sharing part of your day with me by listening 684 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: to how I work. If you're keen for more tips, 685 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: on how to work better. Connect with me via LinkedIn 686 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for 687 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the traditional 688 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: land of the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation. 689 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: I am so grateful for being able to work and 690 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: live on this beautiful land and I want to pay 691 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: my respects to elder's past, present and emerging. How I 692 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,479 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead 693 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan 694 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: and thank you to Martin Nimba who did the audio 695 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: mix and makes everything sound better, better than it would 696 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: have otherwise.