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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Happy Families podcast. My name's

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Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coulson, and I have a confession to make.

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Speaker 1: I don't drink alcohol, full stop, don't touch it, not

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Speaker 1: as Kylie my wife, missus Happy Families. But over the

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Speaker 1: last several months, in fact, over the last several years,

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Speaker 1: I've had several people ask me to do a podcast

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Speaker 1: about parents and alcohol, specifically Mummy Wine Time. I just

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Speaker 1: haven't felt like I can do it without sounding snobby

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Speaker 1: and self righteous and a bit of an old or

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Speaker 1: because I don't drink. So today I'm a Happy Families podcast,

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Speaker 1: a conversation about Mummy wine Time with someone who can

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Speaker 1: speak about it with more insight than anyone that I know.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this year, I spoke with Victoria Vanstone. Victoria is

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Speaker 1: the podcast host of Sober Awkward and the author of

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Speaker 1: a parenting memoir that I didn't want to read but

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Speaker 1: ended up loving, called Mumming. It was just delightful. Now,

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Speaker 1: after that podcast episode a, Victoria and I kept on chatting.

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Speaker 1: She told me about her podcast, Sober Awkward. She has

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Speaker 1: won awards for that pod, and she insisted on handing

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Speaker 1: me a personally signed copy of her book One thousand

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Speaker 1: wasted Sundays. I didn't think that it was going to

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Speaker 1: be my kind of thing because I don't drink and

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Speaker 1: it's not my kind of thing, like in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways. But I read it in two sittings. I

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Speaker 1: would have read it in one sitting, but my flight

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Speaker 1: to Perth wasn't quite long enough to finish it. So

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Speaker 1: that is a long introduction, but I think it's worth it.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Vanstone is my guest on the podcast today and

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about alcohol and parenting. Stay with us. Hello,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Happy Family's Podcast. I'm doctor Justin Colson.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Vanstone, Welcome back to The Happy Family's Pod.

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Speaker 2: Hi, thanks so much for having me again. I feel

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Speaker 2: sort of privileged to come on twice in such a

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Speaker 2: short period of time.

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Speaker 1: Justin doesn't happen very often. I'm pretty selective about things.

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Speaker 1: But I think the ultimate compliment you can hear from

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Speaker 1: somebody about a book that you've written is wasn't interested,

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Speaker 1: didn't want to read it, couldn't put it down. And

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Speaker 1: that's how I kind of was with both of your books.

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Speaker 1: I don't read very many parenting books because I kind

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Speaker 1: of got the PhD in pairing, I don't need to

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Speaker 1: and I loved Mummy, which was what led to you

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Speaker 1: handing me A Thousand Wasted Sundays and saying, I think

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Speaker 1: you really like it, and oh my goodness, I mean

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Speaker 1: as a non drinker who doesn't do the stuff that

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Speaker 1: you describe in the book, I was completely captivated. But

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Speaker 1: even as a drinker, I think that I would have

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Speaker 1: been had I been one, if you know what I mean. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: let's just start at the start. A Thousand Wasted Sundays

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Speaker 1: tells the story of the role that alcohol played in

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Speaker 1: your life. I thought that it was a really enlarging

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Speaker 1: and remarkably redemptive read. I just I loved it, literally,

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Speaker 1: like I said, couldn't put it down except that the

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Speaker 1: flight ended and I had to get off the airplane.

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Speaker 1: Describe a bit more about the role of alcohol in

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Speaker 1: your life.

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Speaker 2: I feel like alcohol was always coming for me from

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Speaker 2: the moment I was born, whether that was environmentally, culturally, generationally,

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Speaker 2: it felt like it was an arrow coming straight for

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Speaker 2: me and that I couldn't avoid it. So I don't

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Speaker 2: have a lot of shame about my drinking, because I

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Speaker 2: was just copying what the people around me were doing when.

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Speaker 2: As I grew up, my parents were sort of entertainers.

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Speaker 2: In the book, I describe if in a street full

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Speaker 2: of darkness, Our house was like the shining disco ball.

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Speaker 2: There was always something going on, always a party, and

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Speaker 2: it was never any sad drinking or alone drinking. It

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Speaker 2: was always what I would call a sort of cheerful pandemonium,

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Speaker 2: a sort of celebratory style of drinking. So from a

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Speaker 2: very young age, all I thought was, well, I want

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Speaker 2: a piece of that. Doesn't that look like fun? This

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Speaker 2: is how everybody lets their hair down and has fun,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to join in. So that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: From a very young age, I started stealing alcohol from

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Speaker 2: the garage. As a teenager, I started using it to

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Speaker 2: help with my confidence. And it's a shame that alcohol

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Speaker 2: comes along at a very vulnerable age for most kids.

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Speaker 2: That's sort of twelve thirteen, fourteen, where we feel like

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Speaker 2: we really don't fit in. I certainly felt like that,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly I had this tool to make me the

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Speaker 2: funnest person in the room. And that continued through my teens,

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Speaker 2: and alcohol gave me something. It gave me a personality

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Speaker 2: almost and I never looked outside that personality until I

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Speaker 2: was in my forties. I became the ultimate party animal.

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Speaker 2: I was a reliable drinking buddy, and you would have

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Speaker 2: wanted me around. I was a good laugh. There were

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Speaker 2: lots of red flags whipping me across the face all

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Speaker 2: of those years, justin which I chose to ignore. You know,

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Speaker 2: I had promiscuous relationships. I was a recreational drug user,

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Speaker 2: because as soon as my inhibitions were out of the window,

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Speaker 2: anyone was passing me anything, I was shoving it down

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Speaker 2: my throat, like ecstasy and all sorts of things. I

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Speaker 2: was just a crazy party girl and I blew my

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Speaker 2: finger off with a firework on the Millennium Night. There

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Speaker 2: was a cult involved. I mean, you'll have to read

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Speaker 2: the book to find out about all of that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But alcohol was a huge part of my identity, and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't until I had my first child that I

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Speaker 2: was forced into questioning my intake.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk more about their parenting aspects shortly, Victoria.

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Speaker 1: I've read a lot of memoirs. There's some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite books to read. I would say that this book,

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Speaker 1: A Thousand Wasted Sundays is potentially the most revealing memoir

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Speaker 1: that I've ever read. You don't really know me at all.

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Speaker 1: We've had a couple of conversations, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: I know you as a person. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: feel like I could sit down and just start chatting

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Speaker 1: away with you, as I'm sure many people have told

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Speaker 1: you when they've read your book, because it makes you

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Speaker 1: feel like we've known you your whole life, and anyone

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Speaker 1: who's listened to this conversation our family's home was the

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Speaker 1: shining disco ball in a dark street, cheerful, pandema. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just love the way that you speak and right

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Speaker 1: revealing memoir in spite of the very, very very challenging

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Speaker 1: things that you share. I've already highlighted hopeful and redemptive

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Speaker 1: is how I would describe the book. I got weepy,

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Speaker 1: I laughed out loud on the airplane a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: But the thing for me was your personal insight into

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Speaker 1: the impact that alcohol was having. Can you step us

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Speaker 1: through that transition time as you went from being a

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Speaker 1: single to a marriage to now I've got a baby

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Speaker 1: and this, oh my goodness, alcohol is not doing for

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Speaker 1: me what I always thought it did for me.

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Speaker 2: Well, when I got pregnant, Actually, my first ever sober

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Speaker 2: social event was actually my wedding day. I was about

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Speaker 2: three months pregnant and I went to my own wedding

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Speaker 2: and experience. You know, I was able to soak up

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Speaker 2: all the love in the room, and I thought, Oh,

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Speaker 2: isn't this strange? What strange world I've stepped into? Ye?

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Speaker 1: Sorry, can I just I know that you've said that

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Speaker 1: so easily, but I want to emphasize this. The first

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Speaker 1: time that you've been to a social event and been

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Speaker 1: sober is your wedding day. And the only reason that

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Speaker 1: you're sober on your wedding day is because you've got

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Speaker 1: a little embryo growing away there, becoming a fetus. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, even that for me, I think that's mind

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Speaker 1: blowing and worth just pausing on. Yes, never had a

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Speaker 1: social event, so but that's just astonishing.

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Speaker 2: Well why would I? Why would I? Somebody like me?

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Speaker 2: Why would I have ever gone to a party and

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Speaker 2: not had a drink. It just wasn't on my radar.

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Speaker 2: I equated drinking with fun, so I was always going

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Speaker 2: to be there, whether it was a house party, a

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Speaker 2: birthday or awake. I would have been bringing the fun.

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Speaker 2: That was my responsibility as a human being was to

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Speaker 2: show every body a good time, and actually to my

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Speaker 2: own detriment because it meant I gave myself away for

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Speaker 2: the entertainment of others, and that led to me having

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Speaker 2: to question my alcohol intake. Actually, but at my wedding

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Speaker 2: it was my first real insight into what sobriety might

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Speaker 2: be like, and I thought, well, isn't this lovely? But then,

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Speaker 2: of course, as soon as that baby was born, I

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Speaker 2: was actually in the hospital having a glass of champagne

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Speaker 2: still in the bed after a CEA section. So it

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Speaker 2: was clear that I wasn't going to stop and something

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Speaker 2: had to happen. And what happened was that I tried

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Speaker 2: to combine these two lives. There's a point in the

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Speaker 2: book where the mum and the party girl collide, and

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Speaker 2: that is really where my life began to change. It

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Speaker 2: was when I decided that I wanted to carry on

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Speaker 2: my very frivolous drinking habit. And when I talk about

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Speaker 2: a frivolous drinking habit, I mean I wasn't drinking every day.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have a bottle of Jack Daniels clutch to

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Speaker 2: my chest and on a park bench. I wasn't losing everything.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about, a very normalized social binge drinking habit

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Speaker 2: which a lot of people will resonate with. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: anyone that you'd pick out of the crowd and say

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Speaker 2: she's got a problem. They'd probably say, well, VIC likes

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Speaker 2: a drink, isn't she fun? And because I grew up

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Speaker 2: with that mentality, I never stopped and questioned it. So

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Speaker 2: when I had a baby, suddenly I wanted to carry

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Speaker 2: on my normal life and go out at the weekends.

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Speaker 2: And I woke up one morning with a terrible hangover

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Speaker 2: and a baby crying in the room beyond, and it

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Speaker 2: was too much to bear. Well, I say it was

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Speaker 2: too much, but it caused me to question my intake,

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Speaker 2: and I spent four years questioning I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: having waters between wines and even like doing stupid things

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Speaker 2: like eating a fish on a Friday to try and

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Speaker 2: get rid of my hangovers. I was trying all the

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Speaker 2: Old wives tales. I never considered once actually stopping drinking.

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Speaker 2: But the problem with that was that when I was hungover,

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Speaker 2: I carried a lot of shame. For the first time ever,

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Speaker 2: having a baby was a massive consequence to my very

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Speaker 2: normal drinking habit, and it showed me that I wasn't

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Speaker 2: functional on a Sunday morning. Hence the book's called A

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Speaker 2: Thousand Wasted Sundays was because I wasn't able to function

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Speaker 2: and take care of my child. And that struggle went

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Speaker 2: on for four years where I'd go out with great,

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Speaker 2: great sort of thoughts that I'm going to be the

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Speaker 2: best drink in the world, and I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: home after one. But of course when I had that one,

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Speaker 2: my inhibitions were out of the window and I was

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Speaker 2: ordering a tray of shots. That's just the sort of

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Speaker 2: person I am. And you know, somebody might call me

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic, but I don't put myself in that box.

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Speaker 2: I'd say I was someone that struggled with an alcohol

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Speaker 2: use disorder. But it took me a long time to

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Speaker 2: realize that. In fact, I had to have another baby,

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Speaker 2: and after she was born six weeks afterwards, realized I

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Speaker 2: wasn't solving my own problems on my own, and I

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Speaker 2: walked into the land and I said to my husband,

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Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. I need help. And that

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Speaker 2: was the moment everything changed.

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Speaker 1: I've got to know what is your husband. It's John,

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Speaker 1: isn't it your husband?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what did he.

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Speaker 1: Think as you were writing the book? Did he ever

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Speaker 1: say to you, Vica, it's pretty revealing. Do you really

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Speaker 1: need to tell that story? Did he ask you to

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Speaker 1: pull it back at any point or did he just say,

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Speaker 1: to your life, it's your story.

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Speaker 2: He knew I was never going to pull it back.

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Speaker 2: And actually I was asked this question on my book

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Speaker 2: launch recently. Somebody said, you know, what does your husband think?

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Speaker 2: And I said to the audience, who here cares what

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Speaker 2: their husband thinks? We were like, there you go, there's

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Speaker 2: your answer. I mean, I think when I sat down

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Speaker 2: to write the book, never in a million years did

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Speaker 2: I imagine everyone reading it. I just thought, well, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to write this. I need to get this story

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Speaker 2: out of it. Therapy. Writing is a form of therapy

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Speaker 2: for me, and I knew that I could make people

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Speaker 2: laugh with all my kind of ridiculous tales, but perhaps

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Speaker 2: be able to help some people along the way by

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Speaker 2: people tuning into something that they never normally would like

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Speaker 2: yourself because of the humor and because of the honesty.

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Speaker 2: And that's what happened. So it's brutally honest, because literally,

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Speaker 2: I never imagined in a million years that anybody would

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Speaker 2: sit you know, read my inside my brain about my life.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it made it a much more real and

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Speaker 2: you know, more interesting and tangible story because of that.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Vnstone is the author of A thousand Wasted Sundays. Victoria,

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Speaker 1: what's your reaction to things like there's memes all over

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Speaker 1: the place mummy wine, tyme beer, a clock. There's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of comments and ideas around this. What are your

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Speaker 1: general thoughts from a sort of I guess a sociological perspective.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I was a perfect candidate for that.

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Speaker 2: You know, this transition from party girl to mum. It

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Speaker 2: made me quite vulnerable. They're pinking drinks, for example, which

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Speaker 2: is when you put rose in a pink can to

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Speaker 2: make it look like it's a nice drink from mum

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Speaker 2: who's got a new baby. So actually they're targeting people

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Speaker 2: like me, and I was the perfect person to be

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Speaker 2: targeted because I did struggle. I've gone from traveling all

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Speaker 2: over the world and being independent to being stuck at

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Speaker 2: home on my own with beige walls and a baby

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Speaker 2: crying in my arms, and obviously I found it quite dull.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be one hundred percent honest with you,

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Speaker 2: that transition. I wasn't prepared for it. So therefore alcohol

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Speaker 2: became an answer for me and mummy wine time, that

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Speaker 2: wine down and reward at the end of the day

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Speaker 2: hit the right dopamine for me, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh right, I've worked really hard. I deserve a glass

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Speaker 2: of wine. Here's the baby to my husband, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to sit and have a glass of wine in the evening.

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Speaker 2: And I never questioned the messaging that that was giving.

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Speaker 2: I know now looking back that drinking in front of children,

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Speaker 2: it kind of gives them a message. You know, I

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Speaker 2: need to drink to deal with you. I need to

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Speaker 2: drink to deal with your behavior. You are stressing me out,

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Speaker 2: so therefore mummy needs to numb out. And I look

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Speaker 2: back and think, gosh, I'm so glad that my kids

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Speaker 2: were so young when I gave up drinking, because I

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Speaker 2: realized now it was really bad messaging. And it was

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Speaker 2: exactly the messaging that I was given as a child

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Speaker 2: which led me to become an drinker. And I think

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Speaker 2: when you're growing up and looking up to your peers

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Speaker 2: or your parents in particular, your spongy little child brain

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Speaker 2: is absorbing everything, and like me, my kids would have

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Speaker 2: equated fun having a glass of wine. So I'm glad

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Speaker 2: that I've been the cycle breaker, and I hope you

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Speaker 2: know I'm not silly justin. I'm sure my children may

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Speaker 2: drink as they get older. I've got three little kids,

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Speaker 2: one of them's turning thirteen. But I feel with me quitting.

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Speaker 2: I'm nearly eight years sober now that perhaps I didn't

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Speaker 2: have a choice about alcohol as I grew up, and

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping that my children do so.

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Speaker 1: Fitting in is a really big deal. I mean, Australian

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Speaker 1: culture so much of it is centered around the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to drink alcohol. Over the years, I've faced enormous pressure

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Speaker 1: from fully grown adults who just can't comprehend that I

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Speaker 1: would go out and say, actually, no, I'm not drinking.

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Speaker 1: I don't drink alcohol. I just think it's bizarre. I've

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Speaker 1: had fully grown like people in their forties and fifties

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Speaker 1: and sixties doing everything I can to either course or

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Speaker 1: even trick me into consuming alcohol. I just don't drink.

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Speaker 1: What I'd love to know is when you look at

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Speaker 1: the social pressure around drinking, both for us and for

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Speaker 1: our kids, let's just stay with us for now. How

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Speaker 1: much of mummy wine time culture do you think is

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Speaker 1: actually about fitting in versus genuinely wanting to drink.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree with you, justin that this is a

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Speaker 2: cultural issue where we think we have to drink to

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Speaker 2: fit in. But things are changing. Even in the time

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Speaker 2: that I've been sober. I think people worry what other

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Speaker 2: people's reactions are going to be. And I think we've

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Speaker 2: spent so many years of our lives, you know, dependent

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Speaker 2: on the opinions of others. And something that is wonderful

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Speaker 2: that comes along with sobriety is that you start to

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Speaker 2: have boundaries and really care about yourself, which is something

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Speaker 2: I never did. I never realized in this equation of

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Speaker 2: life that I mattered, and that my opinions mattered, and

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Speaker 2: that how I take care of myself matters, and how

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Speaker 2: that ripples on through my family. It's been a real

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Speaker 2: adjustment since I had therapy to understand that it's okay

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Speaker 2: for me to say no and stand my ground in

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Speaker 2: social situations. And actually, there is nothing more empowering now

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Speaker 2: for me than stepping into one of those situations where

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Speaker 2: you know, a mother's group and everybody's having a glass

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Speaker 2: of wine and going here I am, I'm owning it,

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Speaker 2: and I don't drink anymore. And things are changing in

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Speaker 2: a way that you know, people used to try and

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Speaker 2: twist my elbow and say, oh, you're boring, what's wrong

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Speaker 2: with you? And that's not happening as much anymore. In fact,

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Speaker 2: people are so much more aware of the impact on

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Speaker 2: mental health from drinking lots of alcohol that they're a

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Speaker 2: bit more like, well, well done, you know, well done.

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Speaker 2: Here's a pat on the back. You're doing a great thing.

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Speaker 2: And actually now people question me. Instead of going what

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Speaker 2: are you doing, they say why are you doing it?

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Speaker 2: Which is a really lovely turnaround.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Certainly, Statistically, the numbers show that people are less

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Speaker 1: inclined to drink today than at any point since we've

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Speaker 1: had research on this, that the pressure is definitely declining,

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Speaker 1: and it's been some time since anyone's given me a

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Speaker 1: hard time. Generally, it's more of a oh, good on you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I remember I did dry July, or I did sober October,

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Speaker 1: or I did whatever, and I felt better than I've

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Speaker 1: ever felt when I gave up drinking. There's more articles

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Speaker 1: in the press about giving up drinking than ever before,

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Speaker 1: but it still persists. Here's probably maybe the last question

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Speaker 1: to wrap up our conversation. For parents who are listening

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Speaker 1: to this and thinking maybe I should look at my

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Speaker 1: relationship with alcohol, but they're not ready to start using

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Speaker 1: the word sober or teetotaler or I've given up drinking,

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Speaker 1: what would you say to them? I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: not a conversation to convince the whole world to dry out,

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Speaker 1: but rather to question their drinking. Scott Galloway, who has

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Speaker 1: a very famous podcast, has been quoted as saying, from

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Speaker 1: his point of view, he just wants to make sure

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Speaker 1: that alcohol gives more to him than it takes from him,

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Speaker 1: and if it's giving him more than it's taken, then

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Speaker 1: he's happy with the equation there. How do you talk

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Speaker 1: to people about this when they start to strike up

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Speaker 1: these discussions with you.

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Speaker 2: I'd say, not about how much you drink. It's about

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Speaker 2: your own mental relationship with alcohol. If that's going awry,

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Speaker 2: then it's you're worthy of seeking out support. And also

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Speaker 2: we forget that it's not really about alcohol. It's about

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Speaker 2: who you were before it and who comes after it.

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Speaker 2: That's really the journey. But also if you're someone that's

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Speaker 2: waking up on a Sunday morning, questioning your behavior the

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Speaker 2: night before and perhaps have a bit of a blackout

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Speaker 2: or you're really hungover or suffering from anxiety. We kind

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Speaker 2: of let that go as being part of the drinking,

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Speaker 2: and we're like, oh, well, I'm hungover, and we normalize

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Speaker 2: the feeling of being hungover, and actually that hangover is

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Speaker 2: a siren blaring in your face. This isn't working for you,

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Speaker 2: This is not working. And for me it was really hard.

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Speaker 2: I kind of fell through the gaps because I wasn't

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Speaker 2: that extreme drinker and I was this gray area drinker

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Speaker 2: where a lot of people don't get seen because they

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Speaker 2: don't feel like their problems got bad enough to be

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Speaker 2: deserving a professional help. So what I will say is

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Speaker 2: that no matter how much you drink or how it's

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Speaker 2: making you feel, you are worthy of reaching out for

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Speaker 2: some level of support. There's so much out there nowadays,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a book, a podcast, therapy or AA it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter how much you drink.

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Speaker 2: If drinking is not working, it is worthy of reaching

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Speaker 2: out and finding out. You are now sober curious. This

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Speaker 2: is this lovely term that's kind of been coined by

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Speaker 2: a lady called Ruby Warrington about ten years ago, and

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Speaker 2: it's for anyone who's questioning their alcohol intake. You are

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Speaker 2: now sober curious, and it's not this big word like alcoholic.

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Speaker 2: It's more like a warm hug that's going to go.

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Speaker 2: It's okay to question, and actually it means you're on

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Speaker 2: the right path to bettering yourself and your mental health.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Venstone is the author of A Thousand Wasted Sundays

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Speaker 1: and Mumming, the memoir about a life in the year

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Speaker 1: of am I'm trying to get better, Victoria, as always,

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Speaker 1: just love the conversations, love you're insights, and love your

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Speaker 1: generosity and willingness to share. Thank you, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Justin.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Like this one, share it Let your friends know.

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Speaker 1: I think that anything that can make your family happier

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Speaker 1: is worth sharing around. Just click those buttons. It takes

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Speaker 1: about ten seconds and share the Happy Families podcast. We

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Speaker 1: will link to Victoria's books in the show notes, as

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Speaker 1: well as her podcast Sober Awkward. If you'd like more

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Speaker 1: info about making your family happier, check out Happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot a You