1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: In March twenty twenty, Simon Griffiths was watching as toilet 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: paper sold out across Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan. Even 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: as the CEO of Toilet Paper Innovators Who Gives a Crap, 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: he never imagined the same thing was about to happen 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: in Australia, the UK and the US. But on March four, 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: things took a dramatic turn as the Great toilet Paper 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: was broke out across supermarket aisles. Sales rose by thirty 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: to forty times what they would do in a regular day. 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: Who Gives a Crap sold out with half a million 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: buyers on their waiting list. The challenge excited Simon Griffiths, 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: and over an eight week period, the company pushed its 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: systems to the absolute limit. So how did Simon keep 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: his team motivated? Who Gives a Crap donates fifty percent 14 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: of profits towards building toilets and providing sanitation to those 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: in need. So Simon knew that he and his team 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: it was their moment to shine. Having a purpose at 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: the heart of the company propelled the team into action. 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: and founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,559 Speaker 1: do your best work. So I'm very excited to share 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: this chat with Simon because I've actually known him for 23 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: nearly a decade. We first met when we spoke at 24 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: Tedex Melbourne together, and I remember running an idea generation 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: session for Who Gives a Crap when they had just 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: launched and were still working out of Simon's inner city apartment. 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: In this chat, Simon gets really practical about a whole 28 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: range of things, from how he thinks about goal setting, 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: how he links purpose with productivity, and how he is 30 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: obsessed with working on his weaknesses. So let's start by 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: going back to March twenty twenty. 32 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: It was a really interesting time for me personally. We'd 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: had a second child at the end of January, and 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: so I was six weeks into my eight weeks of 35 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: parental leave, and I noticed that our daily sales in 36 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 2: the last couple of days of February were up fifty percent. 37 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And we'd sort of seen 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: the run on toilet paper in Hong Kong and then 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: Singapore and Japan and said, oh, that would never happen 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: in any of the markets we're in. You know, you 41 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 2: imagine that phenomenon in Australia or the UK, the US, 42 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: It's just not possible. And then the first day of March, 43 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 2: our sales were up two x on a regular day. 44 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: The next day they were up five x on a 45 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: regular day, and the day after that they hit twelve x. 46 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: And then they looked like they were going to do 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: thirty to forty times what a regular day of sales 48 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 2: would be on the fourth of March. And so we realized, 49 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: you know, pretty quickly that this phenomenon that we'd seen 50 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: happen in other parts of the world was happening here 51 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: in Australia and photos of empty shelves are being shared 52 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: on social media, and we just had tens of thousands 53 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 2: of social media it's coming in saying why are you 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 2: buying toilet paper from supermarkets? You should be buying from 55 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: he gives a crap. They sell environmentally friendly product and 56 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: use their profits to help build toilets. And so we 57 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: got sent viral by our customers and that was what 58 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: led to this exponential growth day on day that got 59 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: us to the point where we realized pretty quickly that 60 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 2: we had to mark our stores sold out to hold 61 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: onto product for our subscribers. We want to make sure 62 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: never ever run out of product again, and our business 63 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: customers who we knew relied on us to keep the 64 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: bathroom in their businesses running, and so we marked our 65 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: site as sold out. We sold out globally pretty quickly, 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: and we turned on an email sign up so you 67 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: could find out when we were back in stock. We 68 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: thought we'd get a few thousand people on that waitlist, 69 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: and we ended up with more than half a million 70 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: people on there, which was a little bit unexpected and 71 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: created a pretty serious business challenge of how do we 72 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: get toilet paper to the most people possible? 73 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: Wow, half a million. Do you remember your emotions, like 74 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: how are you feeling day to day or hour to 75 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: hour during this insane period of time? 76 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was crazy. And I think the other part 77 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: of that was I got phone calls from like radio 78 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: stations at six in the morning, and we had a 79 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: six week old baby at home and I was looking 80 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: after our four year old son at the same time, 81 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: and so I got pulled back from parental leave and 82 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: basically did before week of media. So was driving to 83 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: and from TV interviews and doing radio in the car 84 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: and talking to journalists in between, and it was really 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: full on kind of an amazing way to come back 86 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: into the business because it was a real kind of 87 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: high which was super fun. But yeah, I think it 88 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: was really mixed emotions across the company. I think there's 89 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: an excitement to it, which is pretty amazing to be 90 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: in a business that's really humming and buzzing, but also 91 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 2: this terrifying feeling of knowing that this is happening because 92 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: there's something horrible going on in the world and that's 93 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: creating a whole lot of panic that is obviously not 94 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: good to have in society. And then for our teams, 95 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: I think some of the growth side of the business 96 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: so like this is incredible, on some of the upside 97 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: of the business are like, oh my god, we're going 98 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: to run out of stock. And so there was even 99 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: those mixed emotions going on in our team, which made 100 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: it quite hard to really keep our eye on the 101 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: ball because there was a lot of emotion makes it 102 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: hard to be rational, and there was a lot of 103 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: emotion at that point in time. 104 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: Definitely, an emotion makes decision making a whole lot harder. 105 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm curious, at a really practical level, how did you 106 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: change the way that you approached your work during that time. 107 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: What happened was we realized, in the end, more than 108 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: six hundred thousand people on our weight list, we were 109 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: never going to have enough toilet paper in our warehouses 110 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: to be able to email half a million people and 111 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: say hey, we're back in stock, because we'd sell out 112 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: straight away. We have more arriving every week into our warehouse, 113 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: but we'd never have enough to service all of those 114 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: customers at once, and so we had to come up 115 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 2: with a plan of, you know, how do we try 116 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: to get toilet paper into the most houses possible because 117 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: people don't need a big forty eight roll box, which 118 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: is what they're typically buying from us. They just need 119 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: a six pack today and then send more toilet paper 120 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: in the future. And so we kind of broke the 121 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: problem down into how do we get the most orders 122 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: out possible, And we realized that inventory was the biggest constraint, 123 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: and so we repacked our big forty eight row boxes 124 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: into two twenty four packs so we could double the 125 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 2: number of orders that we could ship. We hired and 126 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 2: trained twenty five freelancers in a week to triple our 127 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: customer service capacity, because we knew that if you send 128 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: double the number of orders, you get twice as many 129 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: customer service inquiries coming in. And then we set up 130 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: an invite only version of our website and we sent 131 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 2: just enough emails every day to sell just enough orders 132 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: to take our warehouses to their absolute daily limits of 133 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: the number of orders that they could pick and pack 134 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 2: and dispatch before the wheel would fall off. And so 135 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: we did that for eight weeks, sending just enough emails 136 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: every day to take our warehouses to their absolute limits 137 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: based on pick and pack volumes and inventory. And at 138 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: the end of that eight week period, after a lot 139 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: of early mornings, late nights, breaking the Shopify API, like 140 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: all sorts of crazy stuff going on, pushing all of 141 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: our system to their absolute limits, at the end of 142 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: that eight week period, we had got through that whole 143 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: email list and were able to come back in stock 144 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: properly and run the website as normal. And so our 145 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: team at the start of that whole process realized that 146 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: that was our moment to shine as a remote first 147 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: company that sells toilet paper online. It was like we'd 148 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: been training for twenty twenty for the five or six 149 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: years prior, and so everyone's got their heads down and 150 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: worked really hard, knowing that if we got this right 151 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: and we solved this problem in the right way, it 152 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: would ultimately end up in this huge donation at the 153 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: end of the financial which for us is the thirtieth 154 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: of June. And so when we got to the end 155 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: of that mailing list in June and then made a 156 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: five million dollar donation at the end of June, it 157 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: was the icing on the cake of all of this 158 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: incredible work that had come before that. And so back 159 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: to your question of how did we work through that period, 160 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: I think what was really interesting was that there was 161 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: two things that were really important. The first was that 162 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: we framed the problem in the right way, and so 163 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: getting to thective of getting toilet paper to the most 164 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 2: people possible actually took us a long time to distill 165 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: down that that was the problem that we had to solve, 166 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: and we were trying to figure out, like, we've got 167 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: a global toilet paper problem. How do we solve this? 168 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: Do we ship in toilet paper in seven four seven jets? 169 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: Like what's the right solution here, which obviously for us 170 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: isn't what we wanted to do from an environmental perspective, 171 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: but we're trying to figure out, like, let's look at 172 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: all solutions and see what's possible. And it took to 173 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: getting to the distilled version of how do we get 174 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: toilet paper to the most people possible? That actually allowed 175 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: us to understand what the constraints were in our business 176 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: that would hold us back and how we could overcome 177 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: them to ultimately reach the most people possible. And the 178 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: other part of it was having purpose at the root 179 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: of who we are meant that our team jumped into 180 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: the problem without us having to ask them to work 181 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: early mornings or late nights. I think everyone knew that 182 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: because we had this huge problem in front of us 183 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: and if we got it right, it would mean so 184 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 2: many new customers coming into the bussiness that we had 185 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: to dig deep and try to solve it to ultimately 186 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: create this amazing donation at the end of the financial year. 187 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: That is amazing. I remember reading that on social media 188 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: and I'm a subscriber as well, so congratulations, it's amazing. 189 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: And you said that purpose is at the root of 190 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: who gives a crap? And you made the decision when 191 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: you started the business that you would donate fifty percent 192 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: of profits to charitable causes. And I wanted to know 193 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: why fifty percent. I mean, it's a nice even number, 194 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: but why not more or why not less? 195 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: The original concept was a nonprofit toilet paper company, and 196 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: we won a spot at a social business incubator in Boulder, 197 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: Colorado called the Unreasonable Institute in the year that we 198 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: did it's now called Uncharted. And while we were there, 199 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 2: we had all of these mentors from really amazing backgrounds, 200 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 2: corporate philanthropists, all sorts of very backgrounds, and a lot 201 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: of them challenged us and said, if this is a nonprofit, 202 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: we don't think you can grow it as fast as 203 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 2: if it's a for profit company, because you won't be 204 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: able to use equity investments to help you accelerate the 205 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: growth of the company. You won't be able to offer 206 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: equity packages to your early staff members who are probably 207 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: taking big pay cuts to come and work for you, 208 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: and all these other things. And so we really felt 209 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: strongly about using the company to create the most impact possible. 210 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: And when we zoomed out and thought, how do we 211 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 2: create the most impact possible if we're constraining the growth 212 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: of the business by the nonprofit status, then is there 213 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: a version of it being a for profit business that 214 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: can actually be more impactful. And we got to the 215 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: place of, well, if we can grow at least twice 216 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 2: as fast, then we can have more impact donating fifty 217 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: percent of our profits if that enables that extra two 218 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: x plus growth, And so that was the theory behind it, 219 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: but really wanting to keep the core message to our 220 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 2: customer that without the sanitation problem existing in the developing world, 221 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 2: there was no reason for our business to exist, and 222 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 2: so fifty percent of profits really sent that message home. 223 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: Of the reason why we exist is because the sanitation 224 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: problem is there, and we believe that this fifty percent 225 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 2: mechanism will allow us to tackle that problem in the 226 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: fastest way possible. And we think that's that's played out. 227 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: You know, the fifty percent model means that we have 228 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: cash flow in the business to be able to grow 229 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: the business year on year. It's been able to help 230 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: us now go global and we sell into thirty six 231 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: countries globally today with warehousing in three continents, and as 232 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: a result of kind of getting that fifty percent right, 233 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: we think that we have definitely been able to grow 234 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: more than twice as big, and ultimately that's meant that 235 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: we'll have more impact today but importantly more impact in 236 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: the long run as well. 237 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: I feel like I can I can hear birds chirping 238 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: in the background. Is that right? 239 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: That's a real yeah. We live in our south of 240 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: Melbourne on the Moines and Peninsula and it's a like 241 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 2: a hazard of doing podcasts. Oh, I love it. 242 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: It's an unusual sound that I don't often hear when 243 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm interviewing people, but it's probably a good segue into 244 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: the fact that you are a remote first organization and 245 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: you did it way before it was almost a business requirement. 246 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: And I want to know, having been a remote first 247 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: organization for many years, how do you balance having staff 248 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: work from anywhere but making sure that they're motivated and 249 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: proactive when you can't actually see them every day. 250 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: What we come back to around motivation is Dan Pink's 251 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: theory from Drive around motivation not being linked to money 252 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 2: or remuneration or in this instance, FaceTime. It's linked to autonomy, 253 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: mastery and purpose, and so we think a lot about 254 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: how to build those three things into our business. You know, 255 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 2: autonomy being setting clear goals and then getting out of 256 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: the way and allowing people to achieve them. Mastery being 257 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: working on a core skill set that someone wants to 258 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: truly master themselves, and purpose being something that we're very 259 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: lucky to have embedded in our DNA and have it 260 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: in spades. But so we have to think a lot 261 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: about how do we connect the everyday actions of the 262 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: team to the greater purpose that we have as business. 263 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 2: And so we have our thirty year b HAG, which 264 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: is to make sure that everyone in the world has 265 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 2: access to a toilet. And then we have our five 266 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: year vision, which tells us where we need to be 267 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: in the next five years to enable us to hit 268 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: that thirty year goal. And then from there we come 269 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: down to our annual strategy, which tells us what we 270 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 2: have to do this year to set us up to 271 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: hit that five year vision to get to the thirty 272 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: year b HAG. And then from there we come down 273 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: to our quarterly OKRs, which tell us what the company 274 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: has to do and what every team has to do, 275 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: and for a lot of individuals, what every individual has 276 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: to do this quarter to help us hit the individual goals, 277 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 2: to hit the functional goals, to hit the team goals 278 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: to hit our annual strategy, to hit our five year vision, 279 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: to hit that thirty year b HAG. And if we 280 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: get that right, then it purposes a part of those OKRs, 281 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: and so it kind of lines up autonomy and the 282 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: clear goal setting and then getting out of people's way 283 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 2: mastery where people are working on those core skill sets 284 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 2: that we check in on every year to make sure 285 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: that they're still the right skill set or developing people 286 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: in the right way, and then purpose really understand how 287 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 2: what we're doing today and this quarter ultimately helps us 288 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: to get to that big thirty year goal that we have. 289 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: And so when we get that right, the motivation just 290 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: comes from there and it's not something that we have 291 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: to think too much about. You know, we need to 292 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: obviously check that we're moving in the right direction, but 293 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: it's really embedded into how we work and so we 294 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: just trust that people will do the right thing and 295 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: we also want to give them the flexibility so that 296 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: a big part of not being in the office is 297 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: that you can do things that you would not otherwise 298 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: be able to do. So you can drop the kids 299 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: off or pick them up from school. You can, for 300 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: me personally, go surfing when the swells good and the 301 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: wind's blowing offshore, which doesn't happen all that often, and 302 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: you don't want to miss those great surf days. If 303 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: it's important to you, you can go to the gym. And 304 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: we have this belief that if you're on a call 305 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: with someone and they'd rather be somewhere else, then you 306 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: probably don't want to be on that call with someone 307 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: while they're thinking about that other thing that they could 308 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: be doing. And so people make it clear and transparent 309 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: around what it is that they're doing in the middle 310 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 2: of the day to pick up their kids from school 311 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: or go surfing and have that much the calendar, but 312 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: that they'll make that up and make sure that their 313 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: work gets done throughout the rest of the week in 314 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: the way that makes the most sense for them. And 315 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: so we have always flipped that work life balance on 316 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: its head and think about it more as being life 317 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: work balance as long as the performance outcomes are there 318 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: and we're achieving what we need to, which our business 319 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: is a big requirement because we're still growing very quickly, 320 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: and that requires a lot of discipline to make sure 321 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: that we get that right. 322 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: So life work balance, so people are putting things like 323 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: school pickup or dentist appointment or whatever in their work diary. 324 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: So how else are you driving that life work balance. 325 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I'm sort of not going 326 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: to directly answer your question here, but I don't think 327 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: it's as simple as I'm making it out there. I 328 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: think we also realize that FaceTime is very important, and 329 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: so we started with a completely remote team initially, and 330 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: I think probably two or three years in we brought 331 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: everyone together for the first time and realized how much 332 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: benefit there was from having FaceTime together. Now, some companies 333 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: would have said, well, we need to have an office 334 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: and co locate everyone and make sure that we've got 335 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: FaceTime every day, whereas we said, how do we create 336 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: those moments of FaceTime on the right frequency that makes 337 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: sense for the teams and the company in order to 338 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: get the outcomes that we need without sacrificing the benefits 339 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: that people have from the flexibility that comes from being 340 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: able to work remotely most of the time. And so 341 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: we ended up making a few shifts. We stopped hiring 342 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: people anywhere in the world and instead started to focus 343 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: our hiring on global hubs. So in Australia, we've got 344 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: Melbourne's our hub. In the Philippines, we have Manilla. In 345 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: the US, we have LA and we've focused our hiring 346 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: on those areas so that although people are working from 347 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: home a lot of the time, they can still come 348 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: together and do things socially or spend time in the 349 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: office and for different functions, particularly in Australia, we've got 350 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: more operational functions where there's more focus on deep work 351 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: or headphone style work. People prefer to work at home 352 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: a bit more. And so the Melbourne Hub said, will 353 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: come together one day a week and we'll choose what 354 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: day that is individually, so not everyone will be in 355 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: the office at the same time, whereas our LA Hub 356 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 2: we're working more on marketing and digital product and creative, 357 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: more collaborative functions. And they said, we'd like to work 358 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: together three days a week and it will be Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, 359 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: so that we're all in the office at the same time. 360 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 2: And Manila Hub said, the traffic is terrible, you know, 361 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to spend time together during the week 362 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 2: because we end up with one to four hours in 363 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: the traffic to meet up for a day. So let's 364 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: catch up on a weekend, and we'll do that every 365 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: one or two months instead, and our China hub said 366 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: we'll travel together, so we'll spend time on the road 367 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: in seeing our production partners together and that's our way 368 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 2: of getting our own FaceTime. And then we bring the 369 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: whole company together for one week of the year where 370 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 2: we launch our new strategy for the year ahead and 371 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 2: we connect people either into the purpose of the business 372 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: by taking them into the field to see the work 373 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: of our partners firsthand. So the last time we did 374 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: that was with Water eight in Cambodia and half the 375 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 2: team unfortunately came to down with food poisoning, which gave 376 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: them a little bit more empathy for the problem we're 377 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: trying to solve than what we're expecting. And then every 378 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: other year we do that in a city hub, so 379 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 2: we've started in Melbourne. We did that in Manila last 380 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: year or the year before, and then in twenty twenty 381 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: we weren't able to travel, so we've got a little 382 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: bit of catching up to do once things return to 383 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: normal again. 384 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: I really like how you've let the different hubs determine 385 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: their own rhythm in terms of how much FaceTime they need, 386 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: rather than dictating that from the top, Am I correct 387 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: in assuming that you basically said to each hub, you guys, 388 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: just figure it out what works for you and do that. 389 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct, And I split my time now between 390 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: the Melbourne hub and we're in the Los Angeles hub 391 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: usually for three months a year, not at the moment 392 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: because travel is not a thing, but that means for me, 393 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: I prefer to be at home four days a week, 394 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: but when I'm in LA I have to go into 395 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: the office three days a week. They're the rules, and 396 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: so the team decides that, and the team holds each 397 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: other to account. And obviously there's some flexibility in that. 398 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: If people need to work from home for a little bit, 399 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: then of course we make that work, and then we 400 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: do other stuff like there's a remote work policy where 401 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: someone can apply to travel and work remotely for up 402 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: to three months a year, provided that they get signed 403 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 2: off from their manager, so they could be in Bali 404 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: or wherever they want, provided they make that work with 405 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: their manager and their team. So usually that means working 406 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: on the same time zone. So the first person that 407 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 2: did this actually applied to go to Ireland and the 408 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 2: deal was that he could totally do that if he 409 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: was able to make his meetings work, which meant that 410 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: he stayed up until two or three am, three days 411 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 2: a week to squeeze it all in and he was 412 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: happy to do that. So it worked out well. Wow. 413 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned okay as, and I assume that a 414 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: lot of listeners will be familiar with what they are 415 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: for those that are not. The stands for objectives and 416 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: key results and originally came from Intel by a guy 417 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: called John Duer And for anyone that wants to read 418 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 1: more about it, Measure what Matters is a brilliant book. 419 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: We use okay as at Inventium and I'm always interested 420 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: in how companies apply okayrs. So, for you, bringing it 421 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: back to those elements of motivation that Dan Pink writes about, 422 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: do you let people set their own OKRs? How does 423 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: that work in practice in terms of individuals having or 424 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: setting okayrs. 425 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: So we use them at an annual company wide level, 426 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 2: and then a quarterly company wide level, and then a 427 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: quarterly functional level, so that the company wide okays trickle 428 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: down to the teams, and then we have them set 429 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: for the teams, and then some teams and some individuals 430 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: will also have their own personal OKRs, and usually there's 431 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: always some work stuff in there, and usually there's some 432 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 2: personal stuff in there as well, which gives the managers 433 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: a bit of an insight into what's important for that 434 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: individual outside of work. So often there'll be something around, 435 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: you know, quite common to see exercise or you know, 436 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: some of these kind of things that people might usually 437 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: have as a years resolution creeping into their personal OKRs, 438 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: which is really cool because then you get this level 439 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: of accountability that I think is hard to have otherwise. 440 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: And so the company, any OKRs get set between the 441 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: executive team and our planning team, which are two leadership teams. 442 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: I don't like that word. You should have leaders ever 443 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: owned the business, not just in teams, but really they 444 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: get set in collaboration and then same with the functional 445 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: OKR as that happens with the teams, and then their 446 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: executive rep work to sign off those functional OKRs, and 447 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: then the personal OKRs usually get set by the individual 448 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: with a little bit of help from their functional head. 449 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 2: But if you're in a team with a little bit 450 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: of help with their functional head or their manager, if 451 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: you're a manager who's got many reports, then you can't 452 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: really go in depth to set everyone's individual personal OKRs, 453 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: but you want to be able to make sure that 454 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 2: they're laddering up to what you're trying to achieve as 455 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: a team, to get that cascading effect that allows you 456 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: to make sure that the OKRs are ultimately going to 457 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: help us achieve what we need to do. 458 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: I like that you've got personal okays. I don't think 459 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: i've come across that. What made you decide to do 460 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: that originally? 461 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we tried it originally because we thought that 462 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 2: it was beautiful to have them cast aid through the 463 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: whole organization. So knowing that connecting everyone's individual work up 464 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: to the work of the team and the company, which 465 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: allowed us to have that link of mission to metrics 466 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: and that link from individual work today to the greater 467 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 2: purpose that we have as an organization. But we found 468 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: that for some people it was too much, and some 469 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: teams it was too much. I think OKRs are an 470 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: amazing tool, but they take a few, I would say 471 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 2: a few years to get into the rhythm of really 472 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: distilling them, the process of creating them down so that 473 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: it's not so much work that it's overwhelming. And I 474 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: think we found with personal OKRs that they're amazing for 475 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: kind of holding to account. But for some people it's 476 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: too much to have so many layers of OKRs in 477 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: the organization, and so we've made the personal ones optional, 478 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: and we find that some teams and some individuals will 479 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: use them, whereas other teams and other individuals are happy 480 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: just to use the functional OKRs and divide up ownership 481 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 2: of those amongst their team. 482 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: Do you have any personal okayrs for yourself? Is that 483 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: something you've been doing. 484 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: I did personal OKRs probably the first three quarters that 485 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 2: we had them, and I found them amazingly useful. So 486 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: for me, I was trying to exercise more and I 487 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: set myself a goal of three to four times a 488 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 2: week of exercise, and because they were my personal OKRs, 489 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 2: it made it really easy for me to you know, 490 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: and everyone knew them. They were shared company wide, anyone 491 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 2: could see them. It made it really easy for me 492 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 2: to say, I would love to have that meeting then, 493 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: but I have to go and do some exercise otherwise 494 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: I won't hit my personal krs. And so they became 495 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: a very powerful tool for me to create new habits 496 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 2: in my workday that everyone understood why they were important 497 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: to me, because I laid out that that was specifically 498 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 2: something I was focusing on personally that quarter. Now I 499 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 2: have more of a rolling to do list that I 500 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: look at and prioritize every quarter and set the goals 501 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: for the quarter ahead. But exercise is more baked into 502 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: my routine these days, and so I'm not trying to 503 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: make a big shift there, which is probably why I 504 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: haven't shared those as publicly as what I did for 505 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 2: the first few quarters that we ran them. 506 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm inspired to suggest inventive takes on some personal okays 507 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: as well. 508 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: I really like that. Now. 509 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: Something I've read about Who Gives a Crap is that 510 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: you tell staff that you're in the business of delight, 511 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: and I want to know, like, how do you demonstrate 512 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: that both to people within the business and also to 513 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: your customers. 514 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 2: I think to our customers, it's just a part of 515 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: the customer experience, and so it's not something that we 516 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 2: talk about externally, but internally it's something that we come 517 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: back to a lot, and so there's lots of different 518 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: examples of this, but I think that it's often very 519 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: easy to say, well, if we're in the toilet paper business, 520 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 2: we just do this. But if we ask ourselves a 521 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: question of well, what would we do if we're in 522 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: the business of delight to how we solve this problem? 523 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: Then you'll come at it from a very different place. 524 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: So I think that our packaging is an example of that, 525 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 2: where when we very first had the early kind of 526 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: concept for who Gives a Crap, we realized that we 527 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: weren't going to be in supermarkets, which is where most 528 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 2: toilet paper was sold when we first got started, so 529 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: we could think about our packaging a little bit more 530 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: creatively and differently, and we said, okay, well, if we 531 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 2: put ourselves in the shoes of the customer, how do 532 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 2: they think about toilet paper being in their house? And 533 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: you often see rolls being stacked up in the bathroom, 534 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: and so we said, well, what if we could wrap 535 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: every role individually and design the packaging so that when 536 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: it's stacked up, it creates a really fun, delightful moment. 537 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: And so we took inspiration from I think one of 538 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 2: the co founders, Danny, who was working on this with me, 539 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: had walked past the barbershop and seen one of those 540 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: red and white striped poles earlier in the day, and 541 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: so he mocked up, what would it look like if 542 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: we had these roles and you stack them on top 543 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: of each other, and they created that sort of barber 544 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: pole effect with a red and white striped wrapper, And 545 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: so that was what led us to initially say, well, 546 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: what if we did forty eight different design wrappers boxes, 547 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 2: And I said, well, our production team will kill us. 548 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 2: We can probably do five, And so we mocked up 549 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 2: five different roles, with the first of them being a red, 550 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: orange and blue striped wrapper with a white stripe in 551 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: there as well. Was one of the very first designs 552 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: that we did that part of our first packaging. And 553 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: so I think we have a lot of wouldn't it 554 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 2: be cool if moments, and packaging was certainly one of those. 555 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be cool if we could design something that 556 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: was so beautiful our customers would want to take it 557 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: out of the back of the bathroom cupboard where toilet 558 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: paper is traditionally stored and put it on display. And 559 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: there's probably fifty ideas that we have for every one 560 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: or two that stick, and packaging was one of the 561 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 2: one or two that really stuck in a way that 562 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 2: was meaningful for our customer to the point where when 563 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: people first opened up boxes it was so delightful that 564 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: they wanted to take a photo of that and share 565 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 2: that with someone else, either in a text message or 566 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: WhatsApp or on social media. And so I think if 567 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: we come back to that putting ourselves in the shoes 568 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 2: of the customer and saying, well, what if we're in 569 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 2: the business of delight, how would we insert delight into 570 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 2: this moment? It allows us to think very differently about 571 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 2: what we would do rather than just being a regular 572 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: old toilet paper company. 573 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: I feel like you've achieved that so well. I know 574 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: within my own home. I had some people over for 575 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: dinner last night, and I made sure that I topped 576 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: up my little pile of who gives toilet paper in 577 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: the bathroom because it just looks so cool. Now. One 578 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: of the things I love about your brand is how 579 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: you use humor and especially puns, which you have done 580 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: from day one, and I'm personally surprised at how few 581 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: businesses use humor at all. I mean, let alone use 582 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: humor as amazingly as you guys do. And I want 583 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: to know how do you personally encourage humor at work 584 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 1: and with your team, because I just feel it's so 585 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: core to who you are and why you have built 586 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: such a lovable brand. 587 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think like this is just like 588 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 2: a core part of our culture. I think we have 589 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 2: this philosophy of if you can't have a laugh at work, 590 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: then what's the point of being at work? And so 591 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: we sort of have a culture in a way and 592 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 2: a brand now that self selects people that thrive in 593 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: that environment and want to be there, to have a 594 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 2: bit of fun and to think about things a little 595 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: bit differently. And I think the challenging part of that 596 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: is really being content of crafting a culture that's quirky 597 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: fun rather than dirty fun. And we tread this fine 598 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: line and we say that our brand name is the 599 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: dirtiest thing that you'll ever hear us say. And so 600 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: all of our humor has to be witty and clever 601 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: and quirky without going down the path of being gross 602 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: and disgusting. And that cannot necessarily be an easy thing 603 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: to do for a toilet paper company, but it's something 604 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: that we think about a lot, and particularly as we're 605 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 2: interviewing for our creative team, for example, we'd really test 606 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: how people think about the humor and the brand. 607 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: How do you test someone's humor. 608 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 2: A big part of our interview processes is the homework assignment. 609 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: So we have a five stage interview process, and I 610 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: think the fourth stage of that is a homework assignment 611 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 2: where we get someone to usually do four to eight 612 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: hours of work and we pay them for that time 613 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: because we don't want ideas for free or people to 614 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: think that we're taking advantage of them, which is certainly 615 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: not the intent. And with our creative team in particular, 616 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: that can be a brainstorming session with our other team 617 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: members to understand how they id eate and what nuggets 618 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: of ideas they group together to turn into something that 619 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: they think will be potentially a good campaign for the brand. 620 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: And so an environment like that allows us to understand, yeah, 621 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 2: like how someone approaches the humor of the brand, what 622 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: they think is good humor versus bad humor and why, 623 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: and we can find what are the kind of culture 624 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: ads or the humor ads of the people that will 625 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: potentially join the team. And so homeworks keep out of 626 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: every role that we interview for, but especially key I 627 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: think in the creative team, because you learn so much 628 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: about how someone approaches their work in that session. 629 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: Will you deliberately ask them like, come up with something 630 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: that uses humor that would be inappropriate for who gives 631 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: it crap? 632 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I know we've definitely asked for 633 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: jokes on job applications and stuff like that, so it 634 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: can become a really early filter in the process. I 635 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: don't know if you've ever asked for inappropriate jokes, but yeah, 636 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: I can check with the team. That's a good question. 637 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: So when you're recruiting for any role, will that be 638 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: a prerequisite that people I don't know, how do you 639 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: learn if someone's funny and they're willing to have fun 640 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: at work through a recruitment process. 641 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: This is something we think a lot about in some 642 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: of the more serious functions as well. So finance is 643 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,719 Speaker 2: a great example of this, where we need people in 644 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: that function who can take really serious concepts and break 645 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: them down into bite sized chunks that relate to their team. 646 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: And so we're looking for the way that people go 647 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: above and beyond and if someone in finance can insert 648 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: humor into what they're doing, then for us, that's just 649 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: like a huge win because it's a function that has 650 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 2: a terrible reputation for being stale and boring, and if 651 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: we can change that within our business and make it 652 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: more fun. Then that's a real win for us in 653 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: terms of how we're building a culture that rewards the 654 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 2: right things and helps engage our team in what some 655 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: people perceive as being less exciting parts of the business. Personally. 656 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: You know, I'm a big finance fan, so I'd never 657 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: say that out loud. 658 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: I'd so like, when you're recruiting a finance person, how 659 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: would you find out if they can do these things, 660 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: if they can communicate complex concepts clearly and maybe with 661 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: a bit of. 662 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: Humor as well. So again, homework assignments here is so 663 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: important and so now brief. For our homework assignments, we 664 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: encourage people to use jokes and gifts and emojis and 665 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: allow them to start bringing out their own personality through 666 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: what they're presenting back to the team. And so it 667 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 2: becomes a real moment of allowing someone to get access 668 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 2: to our brand guidelines, interpret them, and then use them 669 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: to create a presentation that for a finance person would 670 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: typically be quite boring and straight. And if they can 671 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: turn that into something that hits the right brand notes 672 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: even a little bit, then it gives us an indication 673 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: or a glimpse into what might be possible for that individual, 674 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: and so we make all of our brand guidelines available 675 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: through that process to help guide people on that journey 676 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: and then see how they interpret them and what they 677 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: come back with it as the end result. 678 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: I like the idea of being encouraged to use gifts 679 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: and memes as part of a home work assignment for 680 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: getting a job. That sounds very appealing. Now, something I've 681 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: heard about you is that you're someone that is very 682 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: aware of your strengths and also your weaknesses, and that 683 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: you're very proactive in working on your weaknesses or addressing 684 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: those and improving those. And I want to know what 685 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: are you currently working on in yourself to improve. 686 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, that's very flattering to here. I 687 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: think it's worth pointing out that there's a lot of 688 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: weaknesses still, so there's always a lot to be able 689 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 2: to work on, which is good and bad. And I'm 690 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: an optimizer, so I love finding a problem and then 691 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 2: figuring out what the optimal solution to that problem is. 692 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: When you start looking at what your own weaknesses are, 693 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: this becomes a really interesting challenge for someone who loves 694 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: to optimize, because you start to find what are the 695 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: tricks and the tools that you can use to break 696 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 2: your own habits and to allow you to be more 697 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: efficient or better at things that you find really challenging. 698 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: But it can also be very emotionally draining because you're 699 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: always holding a mirror up to yourself to try and 700 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: understand what's not perfect and what can be done better. 701 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: And I think everyone has a lot of imperfections. And 702 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: so the other thing to acknowledge here is that I 703 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: think that for me, this happens in like in step changes, 704 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,719 Speaker 2: where I'll go through periods of really intensely working on 705 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: something and being really disciplined about making progress on that 706 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 2: thing that I'm working on, and then inevitably I'll be 707 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: underwater with a project and I revert back to what 708 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: my current set of habits is. And so what that 709 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: means is that you make these leaps and bounds, and 710 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: then you might have a stagnant period and then you 711 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: do some self reflection and figure out what it is 712 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: that isn't working and that you want to improve on 713 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: before you start working on it again. And so it's 714 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: not this linear kind of improvement that you make. It's 715 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: often these big, jagged kind of step changes or nonlinear 716 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 2: progressions with a kind of jagged line through them. At 717 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 2: the moment, I think mobile phone is a big one, 718 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: so trying to use my phone less to be more present, 719 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 2: and so for me often the success comes from not 720 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 2: changing behavior so much as removing the things that make 721 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 2: it easier to slip into bad habits. So I don't 722 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: have any social media apps on my phone. I've removed 723 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: Slack from my phone At the moment, I run my 724 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 2: phone on black and white to make it less addictive, 725 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: and then I get locked out of all of my 726 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 2: apps between nine pm and six am, so that after 727 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 2: a certain time I physically can't use my phone without 728 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: kind of using a jail break, and then setting screen 729 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 2: time limits for most apps so there's a maximum of 730 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: half an hour on most things, so that if I 731 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: accidentally go down a wormhole, then I get pulled back 732 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 2: out of it by my phone. So that's a big 733 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 2: one for me at the moment. Another one is on 734 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: figuring out that there's some tasks that I can do 735 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 2: them myself, but it might take three or four hours, 736 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: whereas other people who are really good at them can 737 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: do them in half an hour. And so dead and 738 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 2: so often I'll procrastinate those tasks because they're things that 739 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 2: I find really challenging, and as a result, they're often 740 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 2: the last thing to be done. And so the trick 741 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: that I've got there at the moment is that I'll 742 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: actually schedule time with someone else who I know is 743 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: really amazing at that task and can do it incredibly quickly, 744 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 2: because if we work on it together for half an 745 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 2: hour an hour, I can get it completely done. And 746 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 2: so that becomes a little bit of a trick to 747 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 2: now instead of procrastinating and being worried about doing this 748 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: thing that I don't enjoy doing and prioritizing everything else 749 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: in front of it, now I have a time where 750 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: once I get into that half an hour hour long meeting, 751 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 2: this is the only thing that we'll work on, and 752 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 2: by the end of it will be finished and we 753 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 2: can put it behind us. And so that's another kind 754 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 2: of trick for removing the thing that makes it hard 755 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: to get started in the first place. So that's often 756 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: how I think about trying to improve on those weaknesses. 757 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: Now, I know that you're also a big reader, and 758 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: I'm curious around what are some of the books that 759 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: you've read, maybe in the last few years that have 760 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: had the big impact on how you think about your 761 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: business and the way that you approach your work. 762 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually less of a reader since we've had kids. 763 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,760 Speaker 2: I find it much more challenging now to read books 764 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 2: than what I ever did before. But as I said before, 765 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: we live in the countryside so inevitably spend a lot 766 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 2: of the time in the car. Everything's just a bit 767 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 2: further away than what it was when we lived in 768 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: the city, and so a lot of my consumption of 769 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: information outside of work now happens through like podcasts or 770 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: clubhouse or other bits and pieces. So the one podcast 771 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 2: that I've actually found I listened to the most often 772 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 2: is actually the Wall Street Journal's daily podcast called The Journal, 773 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 2: which is like this kind of deep dive into one 774 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: topic every day that goes for fifteen minutes in total. 775 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 2: And that's a great way of me staying on top 776 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,280 Speaker 2: of what's going on, particularly with sort of American news, 777 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 2: which I think in the last couple of years has 778 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: been pretty fascinating to have that snapshot into another country 779 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 2: when we have been able to spend time there. 780 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: Any other podcasts that you find that you dip into 781 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: and find particularly useful. 782 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I'm a real sucker for business podcasts, 783 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: so How I Built This is a big one, Amantha. 784 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 2: I love listening to How I Work as well. Yeah. 785 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 2: I kind of dip in and out of different business 786 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: related podcasts, usually on one and a half time speed, 787 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: so I can try to get through them quickly. But 788 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: I don't have something that I listen to religiously. Go 789 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 2: through periods where I'll listen to something a lot and 790 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: then I'll stop and listen to something else. And so 791 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 2: I think twenty VC will be in there. I listen 792 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: to that for a lot for a while, and a 793 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 2: few other podcasts along those lines. 794 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: I'll link to all those in the show notes. And 795 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: one thing you might want to check out that I've 796 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: gotten into in the last few months is Pivot with 797 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: Scott Galloway and Carra Swisher. 798 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 2: I feel like you'd like that one, Yeah, And I've 799 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 2: been meaning to get into Malcolm Gladwell's podcast as well. Yes, 800 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: it is very very good. 801 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: And any books like back when you didn't have little 802 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: people occupying your time and maybe depriving you of some sleep, 803 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: are there any books that were fundamental in influencing the 804 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: way that you work and think I. 805 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 2: Feel like this one's obvious now, but the lean startup 806 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: ten years ago revolutionized how we thought about what we 807 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: were working on, and just the encouragement to get things 808 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: into market as fast as possible, knowing that they're half 809 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: baked or eighty percent ready, because you don't know what 810 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 2: you don't know, and you'll learn so much from putting 811 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: things out into the world. That is just like at 812 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 2: the heart of almost everything we do it who gives 813 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 2: a crap. There's some situations where you don't want to 814 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 2: launch something that's half baked, but generally speaking, anything that's 815 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 2: customer facing or trying to get out into market as 816 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 2: quickly as possible to try and learn from that. So 817 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 2: that's still the number one book that I recommend to 818 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 2: any new entrepreneur because I think it is so different 819 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: to what you get taught at university or in the 820 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 2: corporate world that people really need to read that to 821 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: get used to their thinking. 822 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And now my final question for you, 823 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: if people want to connect with you and who gives 824 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 1: a crown in some way, shape or form and maybe 825 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: order some toilet paper, what is the best way to 826 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: do that? 827 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: So we're just at who Gives a Crap dot org 828 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 2: and shipping now US, UK, Australia, and we've just opened 829 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 2: up European warehouse that we're shipping into all of Europe, 830 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 2: a lot of it with free shipping, which is super exciting. 831 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 2: And then personally I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn I'm just 832 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: at Simon Griffiths on Twitter and LinkedIn something a little 833 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: bit similar but I can't corre remember what it is. 834 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 2: And then more recently a clubhouse I found really interesting. 835 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 2: It's an app to be able to be a fly 836 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: on the wall at a conference that you can duck 837 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 2: in and out of with some amazing speakers. So on there, 838 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 2: more and more amazing. 839 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: I will link to all that in the show notes. 840 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 2: Simon, It's been so. 841 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: Good talking and learning all these new things about you 842 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: that I did not previously know. So thank you so 843 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: much for your time. 844 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank Samantha. I feel like a long time coming, 845 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 2: so super nice to chat and to do this together. 846 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: Hello there, I hope you enjoyed this chat with Simon. 847 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: If you did, and you know someone else that might 848 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: enjoy it, why not share it with them now next 849 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: week on the show. I'm very excited to have Yob 850 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: van Dervaut, who is the co founder and CEO of 851 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: remote dot Com and the XVP of Product for git Lab, 852 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: and we will be talking about the world of remote 853 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: working the optimal office set up, which I will say 854 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 1: Yob setup is amazing and so much more. So make 855 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: sure you have clicked subscribe wherever you listen to your 856 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,439 Speaker 1: podcast to be alerted when that episode drops and how 857 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: I Work is produced by Inventing Him with production support 858 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 859 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: Jenna Coder and thank you to Martin Nimba who did 860 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it 861 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,399 Speaker 1: would have otherwise. That is it for today and I'll 862 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: see you next time.