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Speaker 1: One conversation that keeps on coming up over and over

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Speaker 1: and over again has to do with I guess you'd

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Speaker 1: call it equality in the household. Who's doing what? And

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Speaker 1: not just who's doing what, but who's carrying the mental load,

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Speaker 1: the cognitive load. Who's the one that's remembering when sports

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Speaker 1: day is, when library day is, when piano lessons are,

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Speaker 1: when swimming lessons are, and what we're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: doing on Saturday morning, and who's bringing what to the barbecue?

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Speaker 1: The cognitive load consistently falls upon women today. My special

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Speaker 1: guest is an expert researcher from the University of Melbourne

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Speaker 1: who studies what's going on in families when it comes

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Speaker 1: to who's taking on the household mental load. Hello and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name is

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Speaker 1: Justin Coolson. Today, my guest on the podcast is Professor

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Speaker 1: Lea Ruppaner. That's how you'd say it if you're an American.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to go with Professor Lea or maybe

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Speaker 1: just Leah. Is that okay? Lea? Just perfect, perfect professor.

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Speaker 2: That's my Instagram Hamital because I know no one can

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Speaker 2: do that last name. Don't worry, You're not alone.

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Speaker 1: I love the rupanner, though I'm going to try it. Well,

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Speaker 1: I should be gentle and polite about it. Leah is

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Speaker 1: a research professor at the University of Melbourne who studies

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Speaker 1: how modern families work. Her research focuses on gender equality,

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Speaker 1: mental load, and how the demands of family management impact

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Speaker 1: women's lives and careers. I think this is fascinating. Kylie

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Speaker 1: and I talk about it all the time. In addition,

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Speaker 1: Leah is the podcast host of I haven't listened yet.

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Speaker 1: I feel really guilty, but I only just found out

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Speaker 1: as we began our introduction conversation just now a podcast

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Speaker 1: called Misperceived Lea, what's that one about?

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Speaker 2: So I am an academic. I'm Australia's top sociologist last

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Speaker 2: year with Australia's top gender scholar. And that is just

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Speaker 2: me bragging. That's the first interest. It's a nice ones,

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Speaker 2: thank you, thank you. And what I was really committed

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Speaker 2: to doing is how do we take research and make

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Speaker 2: it tangible? How do we take research and translate in

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Speaker 2: the way that's really easy, digestible for people who don't

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Speaker 2: really have enough time, so they're ten, fifteen, maybe twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes unpacking research on things like can women actually multitask?

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Speaker 2: Do men who have a do more housework get more sex?

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Speaker 2: What is the mental load? Should you be friends with

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Speaker 2: people at work? So we're doing episodes each week, just

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Speaker 2: a little short listen based on empirical research and giving

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Speaker 2: you the knowledge without having to get the PhD.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I actually think that I need to subscribe by

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Speaker 1: the end of this podcast. That sounds like it's a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun. Leah. I want to ask you some

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Speaker 1: softball questions, but I also want to be fairly provocative

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Speaker 1: in this conversation. So here's my first question for you,

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Speaker 1: expert Professor Leah. Your research shows that mothers take on

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Speaker 1: seventy one percent of household mental load tasks. What is

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Speaker 1: the household mental load? Firstly, and this is a double

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Speaker 1: barren question, terrible interview technique, but I want to get

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Speaker 1: it all out at once. Number one, what is that

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Speaker 1: household mental load that women are taking on seventy one

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Speaker 1: percent all? But secondly, what's happening in families where the

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Speaker 1: split is more equitable? What are they doing differently?

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Speaker 2: This is actually a very good question, because we are

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Speaker 2: doing some work currently where we're really trying to get

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Speaker 2: a clear definition of the mental load. One of the problems,

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Speaker 2: I think is that we don't really understand what the

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Speaker 2: mental load is and how it's different from say like

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Speaker 2: emotional labor or cognitive labor, or housework and child care.

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Speaker 2: And so I have a book coming out later on

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Speaker 2: that'll really give you a brand new definition, but that'll

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Speaker 2: come in twenty twenty six Strain. But what I want

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Speaker 2: to say right now is that the mental load is

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Speaker 2: the emotional thinking work that we do to keep our

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Speaker 2: households functioning. It's that work that you do, and that

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Speaker 2: our research we're calling it cognitive labor because it's this

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Speaker 2: thinking work. It's around remembering if your kids are signed

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Speaker 2: up prafter school activities. We have twenty one items and

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Speaker 2: it's asking the question of like, you know, are you

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Speaker 2: remembering if the kids nails are cut? Are you remembering

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Speaker 2: if to bring that thing that activity for school? Are

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Speaker 2: you thinking about the finances, are thinking about car maintenance?

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Speaker 2: Are you thinking about childcare? So there's a range of items,

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Speaker 2: but is that work around the domestic work, that's the

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Speaker 2: thinking work to making sure everyone's doing what they're doing

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Speaker 2: as they need to be doing when they need to

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Speaker 2: be doing it.

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Speaker 1: I have a question on this before we get into

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Speaker 1: the families that are splitting it equitably. You mentioned one

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Speaker 1: item there that was definitely what I would categorize as

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Speaker 1: male oriented rather than female oriented. And I know that

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Speaker 1: this is probably right at the very heart of everything

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Speaker 1: that you do from a research point of view. Why

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Speaker 1: do we perceive that the car maintenance booking is the

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Speaker 1: man's job, whereas the kids getting their haircut or having

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Speaker 1: their toenails clipped is the woman's job. I know that

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Speaker 1: I'm sounding I'm probably sounding like I was born in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. I'm sounding completely ideologically pure when it

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Speaker 1: comes to what male and female are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: all about or not about. But how do you balance

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Speaker 1: those items? Do you have more that orient towards the

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Speaker 1: men as well? Because you only mentioned the one, whereas

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Speaker 1: you mentioned all of those more female oriented items.

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Speaker 2: I'd bless you because there's this is literally what the

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Speaker 2: research article did, right. So what we did was and

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Speaker 2: it's with Anna Weeks at the University of Bath and

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Speaker 2: this is part of Anna Week's PhD project. So what

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Speaker 2: she did was she collected these twenty one items right,

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Speaker 2: and they fall into these broad categories food, care, maintenance, finance, socialization, right,

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Speaker 2: the organization. And it's that thinking we're going on behind.

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Speaker 2: And the research project was to do exactly that to

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Speaker 2: see because we know to see how this shakes out

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Speaker 2: by gender, like our men sharing all of it? Are

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Speaker 2: and this is all parents, right? Are they sharing it all?

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Speaker 2: Is it not sharing it all? And in part this

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Speaker 2: is because I've been studying housework, right who does what

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Speaker 2: at home? For decades and in the housework literature, what's

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Speaker 2: really clear is that men take on the more episodic tasks.

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Speaker 2: They do the maintenance, they do the finance, they do

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Speaker 2: the bills, they do the changing of the light bulb

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Speaker 2: right when things go wrong, they do the yard maintenance.

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Speaker 2: And this is often called episodic or outdoor tasks. These

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Speaker 2: are the things that are not done every day, and

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Speaker 2: women tend to take on the daily tasks, the cooking,

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Speaker 2: the cleaning, the laundry, the childcare, these types of things.

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Speaker 2: And so what we were really interested in understanding is

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Speaker 2: like does the mental load split in that way? Do

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Speaker 2: you actually see that men are taking on more of

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Speaker 2: the mental load around say finance and maintenance, which, as

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Speaker 2: you said, is like that's gender roles that we tend

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Speaker 2: to say, these are the tasks that men do in

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Speaker 2: part because their fathers did it, in part because you know,

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Speaker 2: we could do the whole lineage. Right, it's logical work,

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Speaker 2: it's tied to it's tied to machines. Or do we

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Speaker 2: actually see that the mental load is different and it blends.

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Speaker 2: And what we found was on the edge of your seats,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure what we found was is that, yes, it

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Speaker 2: splits in that way that actually men are much with

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Speaker 2: the fathers are much more likely to say they do

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Speaker 2: the maintenance stuff. They're much more likely they say they

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Speaker 2: do the finance stuff and the mothers. That leaves the

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Speaker 2: mothers with pretty much everything else. But what was kind

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Speaker 2: of interesting is because the mental load can be duplicated. Now,

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Speaker 2: just like bear with me, when we think about something

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Speaker 2: like changing the light bulb, you are not going to

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Speaker 2: have one partner in the family go change that light

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Speaker 2: bulb and then the other partner is going to unscrew

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Speaker 2: it and change that light bulb again. Right, This is

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Speaker 2: like very unlikely if you're doing this stop. But with

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Speaker 2: the mental load. You could have both partners carrying both

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Speaker 2: things right. The father and the family could be thinking about, Okay,

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Speaker 2: that dishwasher doesn't look well. It needs you know, it's

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Speaker 2: breaking down, it needs to be repaired, and the mother

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Speaker 2: can be doing the same work. Right, Both people can

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Speaker 2: be monitoring the same thing because it's internal, it's your

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Speaker 2: mental load, and we're tracking it. And so this was

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Speaker 2: one of the things that we did find. Right, that

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Speaker 2: fathers do do more of those episodic tasks. They're much

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Speaker 2: more likely to say they're primarily responsible. But it's not

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Speaker 2: an even split. It's not like the fathers do it

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Speaker 2: and the mothers drop it. The mothers do it too.

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Speaker 2: And you can say the same thing when we look

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Speaker 2: at you know, the childcare and stuff like that. You know,

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Speaker 2: father's picked up pieces of this, pieces of the childcare,

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Speaker 2: pieces of the meal preparation. But the mental load is

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Speaker 2: this really different type of war work that both people

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Speaker 2: can be doing simultaneously. It's invisible, it's boundaryless, it's never ending,

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Speaker 2: and it's a really different and distinct tape.

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Speaker 1: The second part of my question was about what's happening

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Speaker 1: in the families, whether split is more equitable, but I

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Speaker 1: want to change the question ready for two reasons. What

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Speaker 1: you've just highlighted is it's kind of a light bulb

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Speaker 1: moment for me when I've talked about mental load, because

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Speaker 1: my expertise is in psychology, not in household domestic labor

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Speaker 1: and cognitive wear and tear. It's just occurred to me

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Speaker 1: Kylie and I worry about the same things we check

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Speaker 1: up on each other. I've got the fact that I've

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Speaker 1: got a daughter who's supposed to be bouldering or at drums,

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Speaker 1: or a child who's got to be picked up from

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Speaker 1: here and taken to there. That's going through my head

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Speaker 1: at the same time that it's going through hers. I'm

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Speaker 1: worrying about dinner tonight just as much as she's worrying

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Speaker 1: about dinner tonight. So there's a whole lot of duplication

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Speaker 1: that's happening in couples when it comes to this mental load.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that there's a lot more mental load

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Speaker 1: being carried than one hundred percent. Is kind of what

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Speaker 1: I'm getting at right, Like, I'm worried about it eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of the time, Kylie's worried about it ninety two

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Speaker 1: percent of the time. Therefore, one hundred and seventy percent

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Speaker 1: of the time we're worried about dinner, and yet we

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Speaker 1: still have to buy takeout because because we haven't organized dinner.

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Speaker 1: So isn't about equality? What do we do about the duplication?

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Speaker 2: How do we.

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Speaker 1: Solve the heaviness of this? Because I can't imagine couple

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Speaker 1: sitting down and saying, well, I'm just not going to

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Speaker 1: worry about these things anymore. You worry about them, I'm

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Speaker 1: putting them out of my mind? Or do they.

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Speaker 2: Why can't you?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I'm just too much of a

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Speaker 1: backseat driver. One of the things I was just on.

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Speaker 2: A conversation with Eve Rotsky, who wrote this New York

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Speaker 2: Times bestseller and it's called Fairplay, And she read this Wellga,

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Speaker 2: and what she basically is saying is she has this.

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Speaker 2: When she was asked to think about all the things

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Speaker 2: that she does right before the baby is born, she

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Speaker 2: made this list of tasks. And what this has happened

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Speaker 2: is the list of tasks has grown and grown and

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Speaker 2: grown and grown and grown grown. So if you think

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Speaker 2: what do we do at home, like, what are if

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Speaker 2: we broke everything we do down into tasks? What does

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Speaker 2: it look like, and so what she's done is she

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Speaker 2: has this deck of cards right where you sit down

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Speaker 2: with your partner and you can buy them on Amazon

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Speaker 2: and you allocate them based on who does what you know,

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Speaker 2: I love and load the dishwasher from its top to

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Speaker 2: bottom minutia right. And and her argument is you have

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Speaker 2: to take the whole task. You have to take the

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Speaker 2: whole task, including the mental load. And you have like

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Speaker 2: that is it? So when you said to me, we're duplicating,

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Speaker 2: I'm having this light bulb moment. I think many people

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Speaker 2: listening will have the same light bulb moment because I

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Speaker 2: think we don't think about the mental load. We're doing it,

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Speaker 2: we're in it, we're swimming in it, but we're not

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Speaker 2: cognizant of it. When you have that light bull moment,

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Speaker 2: I want to say to you, but why couldn't you

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Speaker 2: guys specialize? Like why couldn't you drop drop? What would happen?

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Speaker 2: I'm going to thank you for my research project, thank

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Speaker 2: you for thank you very much for participating in my interview.

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Speaker 2: What would have if you actually one of you stopped?

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Speaker 2: I feel and our interviews?

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Speaker 1: So what do you have for ye? So if I

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Speaker 1: was a research participant and I was asked this question,

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Speaker 1: I would tell you that I felt uncomfortable with the

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Speaker 1: proposition that I was going to leave things entirely to

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Speaker 1: my wife, and I would feel uncomfortable that she left

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Speaker 1: things entirely to me. That would feel transactional. And I

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Speaker 1: would also potentially, I feel like there's the potential for

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Speaker 1: conflict here. And I'll tell you why, because if Kylie

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Speaker 1: is looking after let's say, for example, dinner, and I

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Speaker 1: walk into the house and dinner's not done, there's the

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Speaker 1: possibility that I'll become resentful and say, well, I'm doing

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Speaker 1: everything on my list. I'm working my backside into the ground.

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Speaker 1: I don't have time to do everything on my list

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Speaker 1: because my list is so big. I know you've got

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Speaker 1: a big list too, but I'm getting mine done. You're lazy,

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Speaker 1: you're not doing your thing. And of course I would

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Speaker 1: never speak to my wife like that, but the potential

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Speaker 1: for resentment to build when somebody isn't doing what's on

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Speaker 1: their list, it makes it feel transactional to me. Moreover,

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Speaker 1: if something comes up that's an emergency, like one of

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Speaker 1: the kids calls and says, I forgot this thing and

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Speaker 1: it's really important. It's life and death. I need you

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Speaker 1: to drive to the school, or my life is over

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, which happens frequently. That will impinge

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Speaker 1: unfairly on her lists, which means that it's harder for

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Speaker 1: her to do her things, which means that I start

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Speaker 1: to get irritated at the children because they're ruining their

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Speaker 1: mother's life, and therefore they're ruining mine because I rely

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Speaker 1: on highly to do those things, because I'm doing the

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Speaker 1: things that she's relying on me to do, and it's

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Speaker 1: just not fair. So my response would be, I don't

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Speaker 1: like the transactional nature of it. That was a long

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Speaker 1: way of saying that I liked it.

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Speaker 2: So if you have duplication, it's interesting because if you

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Speaker 2: have duplication being saying, if we all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: become transactional, then our relationship becomes transactional, which is interesting

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Speaker 2: because I think for a lot of couples that don't have,

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Speaker 2: you know, aren't put focused on equally sharing something. It's

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Speaker 2: sometimes a way to reshuffle away from the women and

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Speaker 2: into the men's laps, right, get fathers engaged. But you're saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm a fully engaged father, and actually I like to

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Speaker 2: have this equal share because otherwise I feel like it'll

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Speaker 2: create tension.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't even think that our share is equal.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea, and that's because I don't keep score.

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Speaker 1: But what I do have, and this is my opportunity

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Speaker 1: virtue sickle and tell everyone how great I am. So

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Speaker 1: forgive me for being a little bit all about me

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Speaker 1: for a minute. But my orientation when I walk into

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Speaker 1: the house unless I'm absolutely exhausted and just need to

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Speaker 1: pass out, which does happen from time to time. We

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Speaker 1: all have those days. But my orientation is how can

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Speaker 1: I serve who needs me? What can I do? Oh,

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Speaker 1: the dishwasher needs unstacking, Well I'll do that, and I'll

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Speaker 1: call a couple of the kids in because they need

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Speaker 1: to contribute, and we can be together while we do it.

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Speaker 1: At nighttime, after dinner, we do this thing called all in,

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Speaker 1: which is literally what it sounds like. We're all in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen and we're cleaning and we're putting away. We're

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Speaker 1: washing dishes. We don't use the dish washer. We wash

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Speaker 1: them and drive them and put them away, and the

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Speaker 1: vacuum cleaner comes out, and the benches are clean and

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Speaker 1: the food's put away. It's all in. So the orientation

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Speaker 1: that we've tried to instill, the family culture we've tried

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Speaker 1: to create is one of let me see the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to contribute, rather than that's not my job, which is

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Speaker 1: a sentence that if I hear, I kind of crack it.

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Speaker 2: I love this. Actually, Hailey Swinson, we're doing some live

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Speaker 2: interview podcasts that will come out later on, but one

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Speaker 2: of the things we're trying to do is help give

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Speaker 2: families like concrete tools to help produce their mental load, right, like,

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Speaker 2: how do we help people understand how AI could help you?

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Speaker 2: How do we help them understand you know, what you

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Speaker 2: can do on a day to day task. And Hailey Swinson,

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Speaker 2: she's a she's at New America and they have this

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Speaker 2: Better Life Lab and they're doing these experiments where they're

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Speaker 2: trying to give people actually concrete like worksheets like and

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Speaker 2: one of the things you're saying that all in sounds

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Speaker 2: like something that she was talking about, Like they have

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Speaker 2: an experiment like this where it's like everyone's involved, so

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Speaker 2: everyone can see what's going on. Everyone comes together for

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Speaker 2: a period of time to go all in to do

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Speaker 2: a task, and at the end the mom said, then

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Speaker 2: we bake cookies, like we put cookies into the oven,

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Speaker 2: and we all come together and while the cookies are

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Speaker 2: baking for thirty minutes, we're all in the kitchen or

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Speaker 2: in the house doing everything. And then at the end

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Speaker 2: of the thirty minutes, you get the cookies right. And

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Speaker 2: I thought, what a beautiful way to create family bonding

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Speaker 2: but also raise visibility about what's being done in house right,

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Speaker 2: shared responsibility in the household. And so I think that

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Speaker 2: all in is an incredible tool for people who haven't

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Speaker 2: heard it or haven't used it. And it seems like

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Speaker 2: it really does work. Am I right?

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Speaker 1: It does? And we make it fun because sometimes the

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Speaker 1: kids come in pretty grumpy and they don't want to

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Speaker 1: do all in. But we play games, we talk about

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Speaker 1: our days, we engage in in constructive conversations. You've raised

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Speaker 1: two things in your quick response there that I need

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Speaker 1: to ask about. The first is the invisibility of the

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Speaker 1: labor of others. The children consistently say to me, you

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Speaker 1: always make me do all the work. My sisters never

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Speaker 1: do anything. My response to them is, you don't know

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Speaker 1: what they're doing. You don't know what I'm asking them

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Speaker 1: to do. You're only aware of yourself talk to that idea,

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Speaker 1: because I'd imagine that's right in the sweet spot of

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Speaker 1: the research that you do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely so. In twenty twenty I published an article

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Speaker 2: with Lisdy and Brenda Churchill at University in Melbourne and

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Speaker 2: one of the things we were really trying to understand

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Speaker 2: is how is the mental load different from cognitive or

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Speaker 2: emotional labor. So just bear with me because I'll be

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Speaker 2: a little bit of an academic right now. So when

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Speaker 2: we think about the type of labor that you do,

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Speaker 2: you might do cognitive labor, like thinking work. This could

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Speaker 2: be keeping a track of everything that needs to be done.

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Speaker 2: It could be a list, you know, tracking. This could

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Speaker 2: be making a list, for example, of what ingredients we

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Speaker 2: need for dinner. Cognitive labor thinking work. You also might

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Speaker 2: do some emotional work, thinking about if your child is,

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Speaker 2: you know, having a hard day, or something in your

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Speaker 2: partners having hard day, someone in your family requires emotional

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Speaker 2: work and emotional support. These are two types of work

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Speaker 2: that you're probably doing every day, all day long. Then

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Speaker 2: you're also doing paid work. You know, you're getting paid

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Speaker 2: in your job if you're working, or you're doing domestic work,

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Speaker 2: which again is work but is unpaid childcare and housework,

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Speaker 2: and these are kind of four types of labor. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things we talked about was that the

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Speaker 2: mental load is something different. It's when thinking work becomes emotional.

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Speaker 2: So it's this idea that it's the coming together of

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Speaker 2: emotional thinking work and that's what makes it heavy, and

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Speaker 2: that's what makes it a load. So it's not just

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Speaker 2: did we remember to, I don't know, buy the milk,

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Speaker 2: It's more did we remember to buy the milk? Do

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Speaker 2: we get the right type? Actually, are the kids going

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Speaker 2: to be able to have cereal in the morning? If

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Speaker 2: they don't have cereal in the morning, they're going to

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Speaker 2: start their day off terribly. What am I going to

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Speaker 2: try to find? Right? That's the emotional thinking work that

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Speaker 2: you can see kind of goes in different directions. In

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Speaker 2: addition to that, we said that the mental load was

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Speaker 2: three things. It's invisible, which means it's done internally. It's

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Speaker 2: in your brain. You can't literally cannot see when people

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Speaker 2: are doing mental load work or the work. You might

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Speaker 2: right now as I'm talking be thinking about something else,

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Speaker 2: like I might have tiggered, like do we have enough milk?

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Speaker 1: Am I going to have to go to the shops

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Speaker 1: and get the groceries for that amazing recipe we're going

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Speaker 1: to cook tonight, exactly, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things we're trying to get is like,

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Speaker 2: how do you measure the mental load? Do you measure

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Speaker 2: it in seconds? Measure it in minutes? Do you measure

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Speaker 2: How do you do that? Because it comes like a

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Speaker 2: split second right into your brain and you're derailed, and

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Speaker 2: it can leave just as quickly, but you're still derailed.

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Speaker 2: So it's invisible. It's it's invisible work. It's boundaryless. And

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Speaker 2: what we mean by that is like you, if you

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Speaker 2: have unfinished laundry or you have dishes that are dirty

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Speaker 2: at home, you are not carrying your dishes into work.

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Speaker 2: You're not like, hey, everybody, sorry, I just didn't get

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Speaker 2: to finish these fifteen dishes, so I'm gonna bring up

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Speaker 2: a stack them in the work dishwasher, right like, You're

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Speaker 2: not doing that. And that means that that kind of

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Speaker 2: work is bound to a space and a place like you.

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Speaker 2: It stays at home.

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Speaker 1: Yes it does, but it doesn't right like you carry

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Speaker 1: it in your head. You're like, ah, when I get home,

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Speaker 1: I've got to do this and this and this. So

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Speaker 1: you're not bringing it to work, but you kind of, ah.

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Speaker 2: You're bringing the mental load of it to work. You

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Speaker 2: a break. Correct, Absolutely, you're not going to bring your

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Speaker 2: physical dishes, but you'll bring that mental load to your

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Speaker 2: job exactly like you said, right, God, I gotta go home,

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Speaker 2: dishes are there, so you'll bring So that's where it

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Speaker 2: doesn't sit in one spot, right. It's not tied to

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Speaker 2: a place or things or people. It goes with you

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Speaker 2: and everywhere you go on, walks in the bath, wakes

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Speaker 2: you up at night. You take it to work, you

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Speaker 2: take it when you're at the someplace where you're trying

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Speaker 2: to decompress. It goes with you everywhere. And then the

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Speaker 2: last thing is it's enduring because it's tied to the

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Speaker 2: love and care of people you love and care about.

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Speaker 2: When do you stop having a mental load to your children?

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Speaker 2: When you die? Like right, like when you die.

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Speaker 1: That's so optimistic, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It'll never end, right, It just morphs. And so that

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Speaker 2: invisibility is what makes it. Like all these three characteristics

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Speaker 2: of invisibility, emotional thinking, work that is invisible, boundaryless, and enduring,

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Speaker 2: I think is what makes a mental load so pernicious,

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Speaker 2: like so potentially damaging. It also can be really beautiful, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean in our interviews we're hearing things like when

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Speaker 2: the mental load goes well, when I've done all that

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Speaker 2: planning work and there's joy in my face family, Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's the best feeling. So it's not all bad. I

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Speaker 2: don't want people to be like the goal is not

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Speaker 2: to have a zero mental load, but the goal is

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Speaker 2: to understand what it is and think about when it's

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Speaker 2: bringing us value and when it's draining us. When are

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Speaker 2: we do lookinning and when are we not? How do

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Speaker 2: we use it more effectively?

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you the second question that I

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Speaker 1: had From your answer previously, you highlighted that AI could

429
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: be used to reduce the mental load that parents are carrying.

430
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 1: Kylie and I have experimented a little bit with this

431
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 1: in terms of having AI put together an itinery for

432
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 1: a family trip, help us to work out some fun

433
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,199
Speaker 1: activities on a weekend because every now and again we

434
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,199
Speaker 1: just don't want to think about what to do. We

435
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,640
Speaker 1: just want to be told what to do. And even

436
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 1: finding recipes or having AI sort of cheat a little

437
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: bit for us, is it cheating I don't think it's cheating.

438
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: It makes some shortcuts so that we don't have to

439
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: carry the load. What's your take on AI's you found

440
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: intrusion or implementation in family life?

441
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 2: I think what you described is perfect. It's a tool.

442
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 2: Use it effectively to your benefit, right, Like the AI

443
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: I think has the potential to be an important solution.

444
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: And I'm really what I'm really committed to. We're doing

445
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 2: a research project and we're doing it with Goldie whose

446
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: apps that's taking generative AI and helping to read parents' emails,

447
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 2: correspondence calendar invites and seeing if helping that kind of

448
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 2: break you down and then put it into your calendar. Right.

449
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 1: I like this, and I'll tell you why. I just

450
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 1: delete the emails. I don't even read them, and I

451
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 1: must know. Schools tell me all the time this is

452
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: a problem. So what's called Goldie, Goldie Goldie And it

453
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: does that for me?

454
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: Yes? And then yes it does Okay. And if we

455
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 2: think about the fact that Google or like if Google,

456
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: it's funny because I'm reading this book right, I'm there

457
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: at the computer blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and

458
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: I write this thing where I say I think one

459
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 2: of the great solutions is if things like Google who

460
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 2: they can read our email and they can tell me

461
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 2: when I haven't replied to anything, when a bill is due,

462
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: when something needs to be done. Why can't we take

463
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 2: this and move it into family life? And then all

464
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,120
Speaker 2: of a sudden, someone sends me this beautiful thing about

465
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 2: Verity Tuck who started Goldie. Who's this woman founder? And

466
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 2: is you know, stepping into the world. And she's done it.

467
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: She's done it, She's built the out that can do it.

468
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,239
Speaker 2: So I think, like, how can we think about this

469
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: is one of the powerful things. How do we think

470
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: about the ways in which we use AI in other

471
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: areas to create efficiencies? How can we help it to

472
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: lighten the family elements? And this is one example of

473
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: a technology that can do that. We all just if

474
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 2: you will indulge me for one more second. One of

475
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 2: the things I'm working on now is and we did

476
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 2: a little pilot of it, is how do you give

477
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: Goldie's one solution but it's not the only solution, and

478
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: so how do we help understand the suite of solutions?

479
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: So what we did was we gave parents money. We

480
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 2: gave mothers money to see where would they spend it,

481
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 2: what would they do, and how would they allocate that

482
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: resource to lighten their mental load. And this, I think

483
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 2: is what we need to do more of understanding the

484
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: range of things that are on the market, coming together

485
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 2: with good ideas like that everyone in the kitchen moment right,

486
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: sharing them across, having them on one spot, because there's

487
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: not going to be a single solution to this problem.

488
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 2: So if you can have a range of solutions and

489
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: you can see what they are, and you can see

490
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: what's worked for other people, you could then adopt what

491
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: works for you at whatever moment in time.

492
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,719
Speaker 1: Let's stay on this theme. I read that nearly three

493
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: thousand WhatsApp messages land in parents WhatsApp groups every single

494
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: year per child. That must be adding to the digital load,

495
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: because I would guess that it's the mom's not the

496
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: dads that tend to be in the WhatsApp groups. What's

497
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: that doing in terms of adding to mother's men? What's

498
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: your research showing.

499
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 2: It's interesting because we asked this question in our interviews,

500
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 2: or let me say it a different way, this question

501
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: came up in our interviews again and again and again,

502
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: and the idea is basically that schools are a huge

503
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 2: generator of correspondence and meant a huge drain on parents'

504
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: mental load. One of the things we're hearing from the

505
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: interviews is like mothers can't escape it even if they

506
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 2: put the fathers as a contact person. We had one

507
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: mother that said, like, I am in a secure location

508
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: because of my job, which means literally my cell phone

509
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: does not work, and yet the school calls me even

510
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: though the forum says to call the dad. Let me

511
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: be clear, I'm not here blaming schools, right. I think

512
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: schools have an incredible pressure on them to be everything

513
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: to everyone at all moments in time. And I understand

514
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: why schools are making the decisions that they're making. But

515
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: we can see the ways when you ask me that

516
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: question of like at the start of it, how do

517
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 2: we understand why certain things get allocated to mom and

518
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: certain things get allocated to dad. That is one example

519
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: of gender norms that have mothers is like the primary

520
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: contact person that even if the course, even if the

521
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 2: directive is do not call me, call him, she gets called.

522
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: And so I think it's thinking about ways in which

523
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 2: so we heard this a lot that schools generate a

524
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 2: huge amount of correspondence that it's not just coming from

525
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 2: the compass. I don't know what your children have, but

526
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: like the compass, like constant stream of that kind of

527
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: stuff that comes at the most inopportune times across the day.

528
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: You get a letter from the math teacher, you get

529
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: a letter from the English teacher, you get a letter

530
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: from the principle. You get right, the volume of correspondence,

531
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 2: But then also it goes into the groups, and then

532
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 2: what happens if you don't monitor them. What happens if

533
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: you miss something and the parents are worried that their

534
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: kids are going to miss out right, that's that's going

535
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 2: to be a missing out. So I guess in summary,

536
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: what I want to say is huge amount of correspondence,

537
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: drain on the mental load, difficulty to put a boundaries

538
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 2: because how do you put it boundaries to the concert stream,

539
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: and then a worry that if I do and I

540
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: forget something, the person who suffers as my kid.

541
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, I'd delete them. I don't have

542
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: the headspace for them. I travel a lot for work,

543
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: so I'm not the person who's going to be implementing

544
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of it. Anyway. I also tell Kylie

545
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: the dee that to delete it. My guess is, if it's

546
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: really important, my daughters will already know about it. But

547
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: it's something that she refuses to do. She says, no, no, no, no,

548
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm keeping the emails. I've got to stay across it.

549
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: But then she also tells me that she has six

550
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: hundred unopened emails in her inbox because who's got time

551
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: for all of that? I just I look at this

552
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: and I mean to hear you talk about an app

553
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: that can do this for you, and I think there's

554
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: actually some good value in that. I think that that

555
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: could be worth playing around with. Okay, the very first

556
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: question I asked you I ended up changing, but I

557
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: want to come back to it for a sec. This

558
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: idea of equality is the right idea. Should we be

559
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: aiming for equality? Is it about both doing fifty percent

560
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: of the load? How do how do you even measure that?

561
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: Is the whole concept flawed? Or is it something that

562
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: is both desirable and attainable? Or are we just worrying

563
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: about the wrong stuff.

564
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: This is like a very difficult question. So my brain

565
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: went to thirteen different things. Get ready, Okay, there's a

566
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: discussion about whether it should be about equality, which is

567
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: like a fifty to fifty split, everyone shares everything equally,

568
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: or should it be about equity whoever needs this is

569
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: I think you're taking an equity perspective right, like who

570
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: needs at what moment in time? When we come in

571
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 2: and we support that person from an equity perspective, I

572
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: think the challenge is is that if we go from

573
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: an equity perspective, which is who needs what at that

574
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: moment in time, and how do we step in and

575
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: support that person. The thing that worries me is sometimes

576
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 2: mothers have a very hard time, and I'm hearing this interviews,

577
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: they have a very hard time sharing through what they need.

578
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: There is a block.

579
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: I wish I had Kylie here right now because we've

580
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: had this conversation. If I say to her, I want

581
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: to have a weekend away. I just want to go surfing.

582
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: I need to clear my head, Kylie says, Okay, go surfing,

583
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: have a great time. But when I make the offer

584
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: to her, it's been a while since you've had a

585
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: day or two to yourself. Do you want to do anything?

586
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 1: She'll say no, Why I've got too much to do

587
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: or I can't leave this And we've heard Unfortunately from

588
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: way too many moms. They'll just say, I can't trust

589
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 1: my husband or my partner with the kids while I'm gone.

590
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: Everything's going to fall apart while I'm gone. So I

591
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: guess that's kind of what you're angling at, isn't it correct.

592
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: It's a huge amount of guilt, right, It's a huge

593
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: amount of guilt, a huge amount of loss trust, Like

594
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: you're saying, if they don't trust them, This is one

595
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: of the things that e Rothi said just actually in

596
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: the podcast we're recording, like, you need to have trust

597
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: that if that person's going to take it step in.

598
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: Accountability and trust. Those are her two keywords, accountability and trust,

599
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: and then mothers feeling they can step away. I'm saying

600
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: to you, I am also hearing a huge block about

601
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: I don't give to myself. I give to others, and

602
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: it's hard to take. And so my goal in this

603
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: world is to break down some of that, right, like,

604
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 2: to break down some of that guilt and shame about taking,

605
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: because I think mothers are so conditioned to give, give, give, give,

606
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: and if you have ten dollars, then you're going to

607
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: put it into your kid's college fund, university fund for y'all,

608
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: and probably is private school tuition. I don't know where.

609
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: I don't know where the money goes in this country,

610
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: but like if the US would be like saving for

611
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: college or you know, their down payment for their home.

612
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: So there's this idea that if there's extra, it should

613
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: go to everyone else. And that has to I think

614
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: they three have to come together on that. There has

615
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: to be trust, some accountability that when you step out,

616
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: you're not coming back to a chaotic mess. But there

617
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: also has to be an ability to say, I can't

618
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: hold this all together at one person cannot be responsible

619
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: for this whole thing. That's fair on me. We don't

620
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: ask in any other circumstance for one person to be

621
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: responsible for everything, right, Like it's weird, right, you wouldn't say,

622
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: like no one says to me at Melbourne UNI, Okay,

623
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: you're now in charge of Melbourn UNI, good luck. Right.

624
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: But for some reason, it's like there's this incredible pressure

625
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: social norms on mothers to be like you're in charge

626
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: of the future of this family. Good luck, And so

627
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: that's unrealistic and that's unsustainable, and so there has to

628
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: be some moment too. And again when mothers get extra

629
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: they give in or they give forward to either their

630
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: kids or their husband or their family. I heard this

631
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: one I said to mothers. I said to them, here's

632
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: four hundred dollars to do what you want. And the

633
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: first thing most of the mothers did was they try

634
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: to give it back to the family. And I had

635
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: to say, no, no, no, I didn't tell you. I mean,

636
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: if you want to, but you don't have to give

637
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: it to yourself. And that is I'm here to break

638
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: that down. I guess that's my last thing. I'm here

639
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: to break that down, that shame around giving to yourself,

640
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: because in giving to yourself, you're giving to the group,

641
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: and in no other circumstances won't feel that.

642
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now, Kylie would go straight

643
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: to the day spa. Four hundred dollars is going to

644
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: give her a good couple of hours of Ah, just joy,

645
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't like day spars anyway. I Digress's Kylie's special place.

646
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: Your research, Leah, as you're highlighted in relation to your

647
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: podcast topics, involves and investigates the area of how male

648
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: and female or partnered contributions in the home impact on

649
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: relationship satisfaction, sexual satisfaction, life satisfaction. Tell me for men

650
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: who contribute more, do they get luckier?

651
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: They get it all. Let me tell you something, they

652
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: get everything.

653
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll.

654
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: Tell you across and the research, like I've done across

655
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: the research. They get better sleep. Right Like, if you

656
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: live in a more equitable, gender equal society, let me

657
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: tell you the things you get. You get more better

658
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: sleep or high quality sleep, you get better health, You're

659
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: less riskier decisions. You know, they're less likely to make risky,

660
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: they're less likely to die. The sex question, I'm going

661
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: it's a little bit murky on that one. But they

662
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: have more sustained relationships, they have more life satisfaction, Their

663
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: partners are more satisfied. I mean, I think the weird

664
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: thing is like we often think about this and I

665
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: talk a lot about this and have for decades, but

666
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: like we think of the conversations are often pitted like

667
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: men versus women, And it's like the answer is is

668
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: actually these social norms that tell men you need to

669
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: be solely responsible for bringing in all the money for

670
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: the family. You know what, rising inflation, I don't know,

671
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: work harder. You know what, global pandemic work harder. COVID nineteen.

672
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: Just dig in and work harder. It's detrimental to men.

673
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: They're traps for men too. And what we're hearing is

674
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: men are like, I want to be there with my partner,

675
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: I want to be there with my kids. I want

676
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: to work less, but I don't know how to do that.

677
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: I don't have the incredible pressure of like I want

678
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: to be less focused on work, but I don't know

679
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: how to do that because I have simultaneous pressure to

680
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: be focused on work, and I'm worried. We have a study. God,

681
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: I could be here for like four hours, but we

682
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: have a study where we actually looked at what happens

683
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: when men take a career gap, what happens if we

684
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: put us in their CV a gap for caregiving. And

685
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: we found that the men get punished more than the fathers,

686
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: get punished more than the mothers. And in particular and

687
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: men dominated industries, like we fed them through algorithms, right

688
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: and just saw what happens is a project with Shila

689
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: and Nijodo, Mark Chong and Leah Furman at the at

690
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: University of Molment. And so the consequences, the structural consequences

691
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 2: for men stepping into care can be serious, and it

692
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: makes sense that they're hesitant. They want to be equal cares.

693
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: They want to be equal shares. They want to have

694
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: lives where they can be connected to their children emotionally,

695
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: they want to be actively engaged. And until we start

696
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: to shift work, shift our policy structures and understand that

697
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: men aren't insane on this. They're just looking at the

698
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,239
Speaker 2: world and facing pressures too that stressful for them too.

699
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: It's not men versus women, it's us together to help

700
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: create worlds in which everyone can step into love, life, laughter, care,

701
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: and enjoyable experiences. That's Michael.

702
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: Much of the conversation has been centered around women and

703
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: the load that they carry as a man. Listening to

704
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: what you're saying, I'm feeling like I'm getting goosebumps and

705
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: think to myself that this is something that I hear

706
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: men say all the time. They'll say, nobody understands the

707
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: load that I carry as a man, especially in single

708
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: income families, having to provide and provision and protect and

709
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: do all the things that men are quote unquote supposed

710
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: to do. Even if that sounds a little bit archaic,

711
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: there is that masculinity drive to do those things that

712
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: men have done across cultures and across millennia. But I'm

713
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: also supposed to show up and have the energy to

714
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: do X, Y and Z when I get home, and

715
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: be willing to have the input and the emotional burden

716
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: that lands on a man's shoulders when he walks in

717
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: the door after he's done all the stuff and gone

718
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: out and slain the line every day which he's supposed

719
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: to go and do all the elephant or whatever it is.

720
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: I've had men literally look at me and almost weep

721
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: as they say, I just don't know if I'm saying this.

722
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: It is such a heavy load. Now I'm again, I'm

723
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: not trying to make it sound like life is extra

724
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: hard for men or anything like that, but rather the

725
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: cognitive load that we've been talking about, this idea of

726
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: a household mental load. It seems it seems like, especially

727
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: in a single income family, if we only focus on

728
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: who's doing what at home, this might be a bit provocative,

729
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: But if we only focus on the split at home,

730
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: it will look like men are loafing. And yet the

731
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: men that I speak to, specifically those who are in

732
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: singling income situations, are doing anything but loafing. They are

733
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: absolutely killing it. So let me ask you this. If

734
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: both parts are happy with the split, and I mean

735
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: genuinely happy, if both are feeling satisfied with the split,

736
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: there's no coercion, there's no manipulation, there's no martyrdom occurring.

737
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: If both in the couple are happy with the split,

738
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: do we have a problem.

739
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: The first answer is no. The only thing I want

740
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: women to think about right in their relationships is when

741
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 2: women step out of and paid employment, there's a lot

742
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: of long term consequences for them, especially if they end

743
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: up divorcing or separating from their partner. So I always

744
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: want women to be thinking, like, in the end, if

745
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: I think that there are multiple family forums, that what

746
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: works for you at point for this person may not

747
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: work for the other. What works for you at point

748
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: A may not work at B, C and D. Right,

749
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 2: But I want women to as they're thinking about making

750
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: these decisions, to go, Okay, what does it mean for

751
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: my superannuation? What does it mean for my long term earnings?

752
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: And what would happen if we actually split? What would

753
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: it look like for me? And if in making those decisions,

754
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 2: in thinking about those things, you're like, no problem, right,

755
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 2: I can be independent I have enough financial resources, Like, great,

756
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 2: do whatever you want, but having the knowledge. My goal

757
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: is always to give women as much knowledge and men

758
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: to as much knowledge as possible so that they're making

759
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: informed decisions at key pivot points. There's these pivot points

760
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: right where we end up on different tracks. And so

761
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: if you have all the information at that point and

762
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: then you make your decision, great, whatever decision you make, perfect,

763
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: but let's make sure you have all that information. But

764
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: in terms of what men are doing, So in our

765
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: study that we just published Internal Marriage and Family with

766
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 2: Enne Weeks on the mental load, what we found is

767
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: in single households and non partnered for non partnered parents,

768
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: it was exactly as you said the men did. There

769
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: was no difference. The mental loads were similar between you know,

770
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: single moms and single dads. So the men stepped in

771
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: right and and they and they did it all. And

772
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 2: so you're right on that, like you're right that there,

773
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: You're right there is and I think you're also right there.

774
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: Like the problem happens sometimes when we point like we

775
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: point the finger at each other. It's hard because I

776
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: can see that mothers are overwhelmed. Everyone's burnt out right now,

777
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: and we show that in our research too. Australia is

778
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: like experiencing this great burnout, especially post pandemic. So how

779
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: do we think about this as like a public health problem?

780
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 2: And then if we have a public health problem where

781
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: everyone's burnt out, how do we make sure we're supporting

782
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: men's mental loads and women's mental loads. It may look different,

783
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: the composition may be different, but how do we make

784
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: sure we're understanding that composition and then giving the supports

785
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: as as necessary, and how do we have honest conversations

786
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: about that.

787
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: I was about to say, it feels to me like

788
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: this is about couples talking to each other, being transparent,

789
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: being vulnerable, having real conversations, and looking for opportunities to contribute.

790
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: That's what I'm hearing, and that's where the satisfaction is.

791
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: That's why both the men and the women who are

792
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: in those relationships sleep better or at not have been

793
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: life satisfaction and marital satisfaction and so on. Okay, last

794
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: question for you. This podcast is about giving parents real solutions.

795
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: In some ways, this has been quite an academic discussion.

796
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: We've been talking about research and what we see in

797
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: terms of this family is doing X, Y and Z

798
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: and how that's playing out in their lives. If you

799
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: could pull out your favorite solution, your number one solution

800
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: from the bag and guide us to it so that

801
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: we can have the kind of life and family and

802
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: marital satisfaction that we all crave. What would you recommend.

803
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: You're going to hear my answer. Sorry, I'm sorry for

804
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: what it's about to happen. You're going to need to

805
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 2: buy my book next year.

806
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: Right, that's a long time. Can you give us something

807
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: when your book comes out, I'll get you back on

808
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 1: the pod because I think it's to It'll be another

809
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: There's so much we haven't talked about that we could.

810
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: But if there was one thing today that a family

811
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: could do, that a couple could do to make that

812
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: load feel lot of for the person who's carrying the

813
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: ball cover at the seventy one percent that women are carrying.

814
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: What what would the one thing be that you'd recommend.

815
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: Let me be clear too, I would love to tell

816
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: you what I had the solution I give you in

817
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 2: the book because and I am I love telling everybody everything,

818
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,919
Speaker 2: and I have to put handcuffs on my on my mouth,

819
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: tape my mouth because I'm always like, let me tell

820
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: you what I found, I think, but until then, because

821
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: I'll probably be busted by every editor and publisher in

822
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 2: the world. Until then, what I think one thing to

823
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 2: do is I think what you said about I think

824
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: coming into it being like, Okay, I don't think we

825
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: totally understand this work right, right, Like I don't think

826
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: people have a good understanding exactly of what is the

827
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: mental load, what is the cognitive labor. Even the fact

828
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: that you said in this conversation like I had a

829
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: million light bulb moments, which means I'm saying something to

830
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: you that you haven't heard before or right, So, I

831
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: think understanding that at this moment in time, we are

832
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: not having quite the right conversation about this because we

833
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: don't yet have the language for it, and so trying

834
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: to work as a couple in terms of communication to

835
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: better to really hear without the resistance coming behind. Take

836
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: the twenty years of baggage and drop it for one

837
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: second and come in and listen. I think that's the

838
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 2: first step to hear it, to understand it, to ask questions,

839
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: to remain curious, and to acknowledge that what you're carrying

840
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 2: on what I carry are two different things. But they're

841
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 2: equally heavy and that start, I think is the start.

842
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: I'll tell you that in my book too, but you

843
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: have to wait till twenty twenty six.

844
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: And I'm going to add mums. When you get the

845
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: opportunity to breathe, or you get someone give you four

846
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: hundred bucks, run with it, run with it, take it,

847
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: do something with it. This has been such a fun conversation.

848
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: So glad to spend some time with your. Professor Lea

849
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: Rupaner is rese Sorry I had to do it.

850
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: You did great.

851
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: Professor Lea Rupana is a research professor at the University

852
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: of Melbourne in sociology is how modern families work, and

853
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: her podcast is called Misperceived.

854
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 2: Perfect and you. I have a at craft Leah, because

855
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: no one can do my last name and at miss

856
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: perceived handle on Instagram. If you want me to tell

857
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 2: you how great I am every single day, great.

858
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Speaker 1: Stuff, We'll make sure we link to all of that

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. Great to be with you. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much, Leah, thank you for having me. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: If you would like more information and resources to make

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Speaker 1: your family happier, check the show notes for today's episode

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Speaker 1: for everything that you need to know about Professor Leah

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Speaker 1: Rapana from the University of Melbourne, or visit happyfamilies dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au