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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, whatever reason they're doing it for, ultimately, what they're

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Speaker 2: trying to do is make this situation go away as

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Speaker 2: painlessly as they possibly can, so that we can just get.

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Speaker 3: On with our lives again.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 4: You know that.

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Speaker 2: Every now and again, I love to use this podcast

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Speaker 2: as a platform to pretend that I'm still in radio

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Speaker 2: like I was twenty years ago. I mean, it was

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Speaker 2: a long time ago, but you know, I can't help

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Speaker 2: it every now and again. I haven't lost it my hand,

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Speaker 2: I know, but I just want to that the topic

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Speaker 2: of today's conversation.

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Speaker 3: Based on an email that we've received from one.

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Speaker 2: Of our listeners via podcasts at Happy Families dot com,

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Speaker 2: makes me think of Billy Joel, But it also makes

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Speaker 2: me think.

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Speaker 3: Of Charles and Eddie.

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Speaker 2: But it also makes me think of the Mix. And

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Speaker 2: then there's that other song by Fleetwood, Matt and I

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Speaker 2: could keep on going, but they're the big ones. I

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Speaker 2: can't help myself because today's topic is, like I said,

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Speaker 2: in response to an email that we had from Emma

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Speaker 2: who says and I quote, we are having a lot

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Speaker 2: of trouble understanding why our eight year old is constantly lying.

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Speaker 2: It can be about absolutely trivial things or the very

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Speaker 2: age appropriate lies to get out of trouble. I find

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Speaker 2: it very hurtful, and unlike any of our other three

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Speaker 2: girls behavior, lying seems to be our biggest behavior challenge

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Speaker 2: with this daughter.

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Speaker 3: Any strategies to help would be so very appreciated.

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Speaker 2: So Kylie, today we're having a conversation about honesty and

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Speaker 2: teaching our children not to lie. Let me ask you

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Speaker 2: this though, do you remember House? You remember the TV

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Speaker 2: show we used.

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Speaker 3: To watch House? Yeah, you remember the one phrase rank doctor? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the cranky doctor. Do you remember the one.

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Speaker 2: Phrase He's actually Brittish but he had the great American

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Speaker 2: accent the whole way throw. I never knew till I

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Speaker 2: heard him speaking in English in British with the British accents.

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Speaker 2: Heard him speaking with the British accent, and I remember going, Wow,

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Speaker 2: he really does a good British accent. And then I

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Speaker 2: discovered that he's British and he was speaking with an

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Speaker 2: American accent in the series. But do you remember the

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Speaker 2: one line that he had about every patient.

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Speaker 3: That came in.

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Speaker 4: You don't remember, No, I don't.

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Speaker 3: He used to say, everybody lies. The only variable is

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Speaker 3: but what do you believe it? Do you lie? Important question?

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Speaker 4: Do you not intentionally?

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Speaker 3: Really?

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Speaker 2: So you're saying that you unintentionally lie? We just you

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Speaker 2: accidentally say the wrong thing. You sound like one of

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Speaker 2: our children right now. I accidently light I didn't mean

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Speaker 2: to mislead you. It just kind of did. It happened

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Speaker 2: to be my advantage.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm reading some books and understanding that our perceptions

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Speaker 4: are quite skewed at times, Yes, in our efforts to

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Speaker 4: preserve ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Right, So what you're reading about his self deception the

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Speaker 2: way we don't just lie to other people, we actually

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Speaker 2: lie to ourselves.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but we believe it's truth because if we

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Speaker 4: don't believe it's true, then what.

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Speaker 3: Does that say about us?

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: So we don't actually believe it's truth, but we lie

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Speaker 2: to ourselves about the truth that it.

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Speaker 3: Isn't so that we can think that it is so

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Speaker 3: that we can feel good.

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Speaker 2: About ourselves, because otherwise would feel terrible about ourselves because

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Speaker 2: we're awful people. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: So up lifting. Aren't you glad that you listened to

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Speaker 2: this podcast the morning? I reckon it would be fascinating

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Speaker 2: to do a challenge and see how long you can

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Speaker 2: go without lying, without a single lie escaping your lips.

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Speaker 2: I reckon it would be very, very hard to get through.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say a day, but I'm going

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Speaker 2: to suggest both you and I work pretty hard on

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Speaker 2: being transparent and honest and not shying away from hard conversations.

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Speaker 4: Look, everybody asks you how you're doing, and more times

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Speaker 4: than not, I'll.

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Speaker 3: Say fine, were you saying you're not fine?

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Speaker 4: No? Often I'm not Why Why are you asking me?

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 2: Why do you lie about how you're doing? I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is the whole thing that are you okay?

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Speaker 3: They right? How you doing? Are you okay?

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Speaker 4: Because I don't have the capacity to have a conversation

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Speaker 4: with you right now, or I don't feel you're genuine

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Speaker 4: in your request to find out how I'm doing okay?

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Speaker 2: So it's timing, and it's also a feeling of safety. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: is there anything.

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Speaker 4: Else a concern about judgment?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Right, okay, which sort of ties back in with the

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Speaker 2: idea of safety. So I think if we're going to

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Speaker 2: answer Emma's question, we need to pause and consider why

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Speaker 2: we lie. If House is right, if everybody lies, and

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Speaker 2: if we do deceive our own selves, then it's a

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Speaker 2: really important consideration. It's a really important question. And if

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Speaker 2: we understand why we lie, it can help us to

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Speaker 2: then step into the world of our children and get

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Speaker 2: why they might be lying. So when you think about

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Speaker 2: these little liars that we've got running around our ankles

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Speaker 2: every now and again, and Emma certainly is dealing it

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Speaker 2: with one of her children, and I shouldn't talk about

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Speaker 2: our kids like that, because they're not just little lies,

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Speaker 2: they're also cherubs. Why do you think kids are most

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Speaker 2: likely to lie? Do you think that they're engaging in

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Speaker 2: self deception? Are they trying to preserve their identity in

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Speaker 2: the same way that you or I am?

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Speaker 4: No, I don't think they have the same cognition.

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Speaker 3: No, they don't. They don't, especially at the age of eight.

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Speaker 4: This is more about either being fearful of getting in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Right, And so Emma said exactly that in her email

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Speaker 2: to us. She highlighted that specific issue. But why else

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Speaker 2: do you reckon they'd be lying?

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Speaker 4: Well, like it's another thing they'd be concerned about as

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Speaker 4: a rupture in the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So if I tell Mom that I've done this and

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Speaker 4: then she gets angry at me, maybe she won't love

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Speaker 4: me anymore.

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Speaker 2: So I would write that down as they're scared that

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Speaker 2: they won't be loved. Not only are they afraid that

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Speaker 2: they'll be in trouble, but they're scared that they will

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Speaker 2: become unlovable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A couple of other reasons that I can think of

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Speaker 2: that kids might lie to us. One of them is

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Speaker 2: when they think they've got this, Like, I know I'm

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Speaker 2: in over my head, I know things aren't working out

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Speaker 2: so well. I know that I kind of just got

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Speaker 2: red handed. But I've got this, I've got it under control.

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Speaker 2: I can get my way through this. It's going to

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Speaker 2: be okay. I want to demonstrate my confidence, my capability.

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Speaker 2: I want to just be independent. Don't want interference from

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Speaker 2: the big people in my life. And so there's that

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Speaker 2: line where they think that they've got it, they think

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Speaker 2: that they can handle it, and then they end up

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Speaker 2: in deeper and.

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Speaker 3: Deeper water as a result.

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Speaker 2: And the other reason that I think that our kids

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Speaker 2: lie is because we've taught them with all of our

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Speaker 2: white lives, with all of our hedging and fudging. Oh

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Speaker 2: you can do that on the weekend. I will come

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Speaker 2: back here another time. And no, no, no, I wasn't on

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Speaker 2: my phone doing that. I was doing this instead.

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Speaker 3: It's one of those.

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Speaker 2: Important things that I have to do, all of the

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Speaker 2: little white lives that we come up with. I'll be

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Speaker 2: with you in two minutes. I've just got to finish

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Speaker 2: this thing, and I'll be with you in two minutes.

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Speaker 2: I think that we teach them as well that honesty

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Speaker 2: is not as valuable as we sometimes make it.

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Speaker 3: Out to be.

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Speaker 2: So we've got, example, we've got afraid of being in trouble,

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Speaker 2: we've got afraid that they're not going to be loved,

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Speaker 2: and we've got the feeling that they've got it all together.

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Speaker 2: To me, when I read an email like Emma's, I

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Speaker 2: think to myself, this is probably why we've got an

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Speaker 2: eight year old who's telling FIBs constantly, lying even about

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Speaker 2: the trivial things. I mean, it even makes more sense

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Speaker 2: with the trivial things, because they want to prove that

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Speaker 2: they've got this the control.

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Speaker 3: That they're big enough that they can handle it. So

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Speaker 3: they're gonna lie.

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Speaker 2: You might say it's cold outside and they'll say, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm really hot, even though they've got goose pimples,

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Speaker 2: goose goosebumps on their.

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Speaker 3: Skin, goose pimples.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, do you not call them goose pimpless goose pimples. Well,

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Speaker 5: I've heard people call them goose pimples, and I don't

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Speaker 5: know why, but I call them goose pimples. And I'm

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Speaker 5: not even telling a lie about it. So here's the thing, kylie.

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Speaker 5: Lying is actually a developmental achievement.

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Speaker 3: We should be excited when our kids can lie. Tell

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Speaker 3: me why, I'm just trying to put a positive spin

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Speaker 3: on it.

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Speaker 2: Well, what it really shows is if your child knows

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Speaker 2: how to lie, it means that cognitively they've gotten to

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Speaker 2: a point where they know that they can manipulate information.

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Speaker 2: They can hold information that's different to your information without

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Speaker 2: passing that along. You see the world differently for them.

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Speaker 2: They're developing this thing that we call theory of mind. Now,

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Speaker 2: researchers argue that this difference in perception, the ability to

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Speaker 2: say I'm seeing it this way and they're seeing it

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Speaker 2: that way, and I get it, and I can hold

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Speaker 2: both of those perspectives. At the same time, researchers think

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Speaker 2: that that comes in somewhere around four and a half, five,

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Speaker 2: maybe five and a half. But in the last year

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Speaker 2: or two that's been called into question. And that's why

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Speaker 2: we see kids doing really lousy lies when they're only three, four, five, six,

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Speaker 2: and the longing becomes a bit more sophisticated when they

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Speaker 2: get to eight, nine, ten, because that theory of mind

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Speaker 2: capacity is really.

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Speaker 3: Starting to embed itself. It's starting to build itself.

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Speaker 2: In to the child's way of being, the child's way

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Speaker 2: of thinking.

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Speaker 4: We actually had a pretty i'm going to say cool

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Speaker 4: experience because we actually watched this play out with the

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Speaker 4: kids the other week. One of our children had done

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Speaker 4: the wrong thing, but she recognized that if she owned

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Speaker 4: up to it, that she would probably get in a

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Speaker 4: bit more trouble than her little sister, and so she

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Speaker 4: convinced her little sister to take the blame.

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Speaker 3: To take the fall. Yeah, And her.

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Speaker 4: Little sister did it with so so much sincerity that

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Speaker 4: I believed her, in spite of the fact that it

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Speaker 4: actually went against her nature to do what she was

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Speaker 4: saying that she had done. But she was just so

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Speaker 4: contrite and so apologetic for doing the wrong thing. And

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Speaker 4: it wasn't until we kind of sat back and went,

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Speaker 4: this doesn't make sense. And finally the bigger one, the

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Speaker 4: bigger one actually came and told us what had happened.

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Speaker 4: But like I said, it was cool because as I'm

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Speaker 4: looking at this and dissecting and we're having this conversation,

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Speaker 4: I'm watching I'm actually watching in real time those cognitive

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Speaker 4: wheels turning in each of the kid's minds as they

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Speaker 4: try to negate this challenging situation that they've found themselves

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Speaker 4: in and what is the best and most pain free

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Speaker 4: way to get through it right?

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Speaker 2: And that's ultimately where line is coming from. Whether it's

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Speaker 2: trying to prove that they can do something in their competent,

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Speaker 2: or trying to avoid loss of parental love, or whether

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Speaker 2: it's trying to avoid getting in trouble or whatever reason

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Speaker 2: they'd do doing it for. Ultimately, what they're trying to

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Speaker 2: do is make this situation go away as painlessly as

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Speaker 2: they possibly can, so that we can just get on

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Speaker 2: with our lives again.

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Speaker 3: I think that we need.

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Speaker 2: To talk about how we can help our kids when

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Speaker 2: they are being dishonest, What conversations we need to have,

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Speaker 2: how we can guide them towards more integrity in the

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Speaker 2: way they engage with us.

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Speaker 4: Well, we already spoke about this situation on the podcasts

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Speaker 4: a week or so ago, but the conversation we were

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Speaker 4: able to have with our daughter after she told the

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Speaker 4: truth yes, was such a powerful one because it reinforced

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Speaker 4: to her that no matter what she does, she's loved. Okay,

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Speaker 4: there is literally nothing she could do that would stop

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Speaker 4: us from loving her.

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Speaker 2: So if we step through what needs to happen, the

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Speaker 2: first thing I would say is we've got to keep

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Speaker 2: our emotions in check because there's something, at least for me,

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Speaker 2: something really I don't like the word triggering, but for me,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to dishonesty, it's probably the thing that

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Speaker 2: sets me off more than anything else. Why do you

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Speaker 2: think that's the case, I don't know, but there's just

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Speaker 2: something about I feel as though we don't If we

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Speaker 2: can't be honest in our relationship, we don't have a relationship.

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Speaker 3: If you feel like you have to lie.

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Speaker 2: To me, it demonstrates that you don't think I'm going

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Speaker 2: to act in your best interest, or you have interests

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Speaker 2: that are deeply differentiated from mine. As a result of that,

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Speaker 2: we can't be on the same page, we can't be aligned.

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Speaker 4: But you're expecting an eight year old to think like

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Speaker 4: you think.

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Speaker 3: I know, that's a big call, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: But if I can help my eight year old to

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Speaker 2: trust me, and this is what I want EMA to

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Speaker 2: really emphasize here, if we can help our eight year

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Speaker 2: old to trust us, to know that we are there

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Speaker 2: to act in their best interests, then they will not

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Speaker 2: feel a need.

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Speaker 3: To lie to avoid getting in trouble.

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Speaker 2: They'll see us as their advocate, not their adversary. So

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Speaker 2: the only way that we can do that is to

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Speaker 2: stay level, calm, and cool even if they do lie.

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Speaker 4: So in most cases this will be probably actually not

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Speaker 4: dealing with it in the moment. Yes, for most of us,

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Speaker 4: we're not going to be calm, call and collected.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: We have a society wide expectation that people will tell

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Speaker 2: the truth.

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Speaker 3: That's at the very core.

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Speaker 2: I mean, trust in a relationship makes everything work, It

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Speaker 2: makes things more efficient. When there's no trust, that's when

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Speaker 2: you start getting lawyers involved and everything gets costly, not

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Speaker 2: just financially but emotionally and socially. A lack of trust

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Speaker 2: brings everything to a grinding halt while we work out

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Speaker 2: every single detail of every single thing. And it's the

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Speaker 2: same in our families. When there's no trust. Our child

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Speaker 2: says I want to go and do this, and we say, well,

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Speaker 2: tell me what that means.

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Speaker 3: Where will you be, who will you be with? How

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Speaker 3: long will you be gone?

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Speaker 2: Now they might be normal questions to ask anyway, but

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Speaker 2: we start to interrogate. Rather than having a quick conversation

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Speaker 2: to check in that everything's okay, we start to really

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Speaker 2: interrogate the matter, really dive into the nitty gritty and

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Speaker 2: pull them up on any inconsistencies. When there's trust, you

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Speaker 2: actually you'll often let inconsistencies slide because you know that

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Speaker 2: it was just a slip of the tongue, It wasn't

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Speaker 2: actually anything meaningful. So if a child lies to your

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Speaker 2: number one, keep your emotions balanced, stay in.

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Speaker 3: Check, keep it level.

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Speaker 2: It might mean you say, at the moment, I'm struggling

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Speaker 2: with the way this conversation is going. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: right to me. I'm going to step out until I

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Speaker 2: can take a big, deep breath and come back in integrity.

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Speaker 2: Telling the truth, being honest is really important in our

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Speaker 2: family and you step out.

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Speaker 3: Another thing to do is that perhaps.

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Speaker 2: You can let your children know that you understand that

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Speaker 2: they are struggling to understand the difference between what's true

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Speaker 2: and what they wish was true. So, if they're lying

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Speaker 2: about something, instead of challenging them on it and saying,

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Speaker 2: why do you always have to lie? I think that

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Speaker 2: it's really reasonable to say you wish that was true,

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Speaker 2: don't you wouldn't it be fantastic if what is true

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Speaker 2: and what you wish were true, we're exactly the same thing.

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Speaker 2: What you wish though isn't how it actually is. And

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Speaker 2: you know that and I know that. And I found

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Speaker 2: that specific phrase to be really helpful in conversations with

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Speaker 2: the kids. You know this and I know this. It

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Speaker 2: kind of just brings them back right here right now.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those things where they don't go, you

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Speaker 2: don't know that, and I know something different. They kind

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Speaker 2: of go, yeah, actually, I do know that, and I

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Speaker 2: know that you know that as well.

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Speaker 3: It helps soften all of that. Well.

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Speaker 4: In doing that, what you're actually giving them is the

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Speaker 4: empathy that they need, right instead of having them feel

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Speaker 4: like they have to justify the lie that they've told.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Another compassionate way to do that is, let's say there's

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Speaker 2: your treat, your treat that was in the fridge that

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Speaker 2: you've been saving for Sunday night, that special chocolate that

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Speaker 2: you're given as a gift. Suddenly it disappears and the

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Speaker 2: wrapping ends up in the bin. And what you can

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Speaker 2: say to your child when your child says, I didn't

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Speaker 2: eat it, and you've checked with everyone else in the house,

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Speaker 2: and you know that nobody else did. It was only

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Speaker 2: that child that was home, and it somehow managed to

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Speaker 2: get eaten in the time that you were out, and that.

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Speaker 3: Child was the only one at home. You can just

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Speaker 3: say something like, well, I've never seen that happen before.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen the chocolate eat itself and put its

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Speaker 2: wrapper in the bin when no one else was home

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Speaker 2: except for one person.

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Speaker 3: That's miraculous. Like you can make light of.

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Speaker 2: It, you can keep it nice and gentle, but you're

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Speaker 2: sending a really clear message I've never seen it happen before,

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Speaker 2: because it just doesn't stack up. There's no parsimonious reason

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Speaker 2: for this to have happened other than we've got some dishonesty.

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Speaker 2: And I think the most important thing in spite of

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Speaker 2: those fun alternative ways of dealing with dishonesty. I think

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Speaker 2: the most important thing is just to explain the impact

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Speaker 2: on the relationship. When we do that really gently, really

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Speaker 2: softly and kindly.

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Speaker 3: When we say to our kids, if you lie to me,

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Speaker 3: I can't believe you.

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Speaker 2: If I can't believe you, we don't have a relationship.

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Speaker 2: I have to follow you everywhere, I have to check

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Speaker 2: up on you all the time. It makes life hard

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Speaker 2: for us all. When we explain the impact on the relationship,

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Speaker 2: the costs to the relationship, our kids get it eventually,

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Speaker 2: but more than anything, for Emma and anyone else who's

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Speaker 2: got a child who's lying, it's important to highlight that

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Speaker 2: so long as we treat our child with love, with unconditionality,

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Speaker 2: and continue to teach them gently and patiently, they grow

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Speaker 2: out of it. Lying is to a very large degree

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Speaker 2: an issue of age and inexperience and immaturity, And as

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Speaker 2: they become more experienced and more mature, it's true that

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Speaker 2: they'll still lie about some stuff.

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Speaker 3: Plenty of about lessons, and plenty of adults still lie

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Speaker 3: about things, but the.

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Speaker 2: Lies will not be as destructive to relationships. If we

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Speaker 2: get this right in the early years.

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Speaker 4: For me, I think that regardless of what the challenge

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Speaker 4: is that we're having with our children, the number one

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Speaker 4: thing to focus on is the relationship. At the moment,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about lying, but it's actually about trust. That's right,

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Speaker 4: and everything that we I guess are challenged by with

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Speaker 4: our children comes down to having that relationship of trust,

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Speaker 4: a trust that you've got their best interest at heart,

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Speaker 4: that you love them no matter what, and that you're

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Speaker 4: going to do everything in your power to keep them safe.

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Speaker 4: And so if we can kind of just take the

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Speaker 4: heat of the lying and focus more heavily on the

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Speaker 4: relationship and building that sense of trust, then hopefully, over

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Speaker 4: time lying actually becomes obsolete. It no longer plays a

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Speaker 4: part in your relationship because your children just know.

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Speaker 3: Exactly well, Emma.

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Speaker 2: We really really do hope that this has been a

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Speaker 2: helpful conversation as we seek to offer some gentle guidance

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Speaker 2: in dealing with an eight year old who has a

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Speaker 2: flexible relationship with the truth. The Happy Family's podcast is

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive

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Speaker 2: Producer, and for more information about making your family happier,

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Speaker 2: we'd love for you to join us at happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au or on our Facebook page at

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Speaker 2: doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families