1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,079 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 2: Just the trigger warning before we start today's episode. It 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: deals with some distressing themes, including the loss of children. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: If you aren't feeling up to it, why not go 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: back and listen to another episode of TDA you may 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: have missed and if you need to speak to someone, 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: you can give Lifeline a call. On thirteen eleven fourteen. 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to The Daily oz It's Friday, 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 3: the twenty eighth of April. 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: I'm Zara, I'm Sam. Welcome back, Zara to the podcast. 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: Very happy to be back. And while I was gone 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 3: there was a very interesting news story. 18 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: She was once labeled as Australia's worst female serial killer, 19 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: convicted of murdering her three children as well as the 20 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: manslaughter of her. 21 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: Firstborn Kathleen Folbigg was jailed in two thousand and three 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: and is currently serving a twenty five year minimum sentence. 23 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 3: She was convicted using evidence from her diary, but as 24 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: science has advanced over time, new information has cast doubt 25 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 3: over Folbig's guilt. Two eminent pediatricians testify today that it 26 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: was likely Kathleen Folbig's children died of natural causes. We're 27 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 3: going to tell you what you need to know in 28 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 3: the deep dive, but first the headlines. 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: Home Affairs Minister Claire O'Neill has declared Australia's immigration system broken. 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: During an address to the National Press Club yesterday, O'Neil 31 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: said the system is not delivering the skills needed to 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: address workforce pressures and that all Australians are suffering as 33 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: a result. 34 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 3: The Victorian Gambling and Casino Control Commission, the VG Triple C, 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: has fired Melbourne's Crown Casino thirty million dollars. Comes after 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: a twenty twenty one royal commission found the casino allowed 37 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: customers to gamble by depositing uncleared bank checks mean out 38 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: to themselves, not to Crown. The VG Triple C said 39 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: the practice exposed Crown to potential money laundering and put 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: gamblers at risk of harm. 41 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,559 Speaker 2: Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenski has spoken to Chinese President Jijingping 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: for the first time since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 2: Both nations leaders said it would improve relations between the 44 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: two countries. It comes after she embarked on their two 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: day visit to Russia last month for talks with Russian 46 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: President Vladimir Putin. 47 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 3: And the good news. The Archibald Packing Room Prize has 48 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 3: been won by cans based artist Andrew Hulin for her 49 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 3: portrait of comedian Cal Wilson. Hewlen's entry, her first ever, 50 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: was declared the winner by a three person jury from 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 3: the Art Gallery of New South Wales. Her portrait is 52 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: one of fifty seven finals for the Archibald Prize, which 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: will be displayed in Sydney Regional, New South Wales and 54 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 3: Victoria later this year. We've had a strong indication this 55 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: week that Kathleen Folbig could be released from prison. That's 56 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: with submissions to an inquiry on the case casting doubts 57 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: on Folbig's guilt. It's a case that's captured the nation's 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: attention since Folbig's trial in two thousand and three. We 59 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: haven't heard the findings from the inquiry that's been ongoing 60 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 3: this week, but we thought it'd be good to lay 61 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: out some of the context to the case until this point, because, 62 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: of course, Sam, you and I were very young in 63 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: two thousand and three. 64 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: Zarah, I was in year three at the time. That 65 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: means that you were in year one. So anybody who's 66 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: currently in their twenties or even the early thirties won't 67 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: be as familiar with this case. So why don't we 68 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: go back to that point. Give me a sense of 69 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: the facts of the case. 70 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: Okay, So it all started with the death of Kathleen 71 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 3: Folbig's first child. His name is Caleb, born in nineteen 72 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: eighty nine, who died when he was just nineteen days old. 73 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: The autopsy report and death certificate gave the direct cause 74 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: of death as SIDS. 75 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: And remind me exactly what SIDS is. 76 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: So SIDS stands for sudden infant death syndrome and it's 77 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 3: basically the cause of death given when a baby dies 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 3: unexpectedly and there's no clear cause of death, just a 79 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: thing to keep in mind, though a coroner might also 80 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 3: leave the cause of death as unknown if there's a 81 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,239 Speaker 3: lot of uncertainty around the details of the death. 82 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: Okay, so Folbig's first child was found to have died 83 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: of SIDS. What happened next? 84 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: So next, the Folbiggs had another baby, Patrick in nineteen ninety. 85 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: He appeared healthy at birth, but at age four months 86 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: and fifteen days he had a medical episode causing brain 87 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 3: damage and seizures, and then in nineteen ninety one he died. 88 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 3: His death certificate recorded the cause of death as related 89 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 3: to epileptic fit. Folbey went on to have two more 90 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: children over the next six years, Sarah and Laura. Sarah 91 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 3: died aged ten months and sixteen days in nineteen ninety three, 92 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 3: with the autopsy and death certificate giving SIDS again as 93 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 3: the cause of death. Laura died aged eighteen months and 94 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,799 Speaker 3: twenty two days in nineteen ninety nine. The autopsy result 95 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 3: gave the cause of Laura's death as undetermined, though it 96 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 3: was reported that she also had a heart condition. 97 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: And so none of those deaths were recorded at the 98 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: time as foul play. How did we get to a 99 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: point where folbeg ended up being convicted. 100 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: Well, what we know from the court documents is that 101 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: after Laura died, Folbig and her husband separated, but her husband, 102 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: Craig read something in one of Kathleen's diaries that actually 103 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 3: led him to contact police. The case ended up going 104 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: to trial, and the diaries became key evidence, with the 105 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 3: prosecutor arguing that they contained what he labeled as virtual 106 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 3: admissions of guilt for the deaths of three of the 107 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 3: children and an acknowledgment that she was at risk of 108 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 3: causing the fourth. 109 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: And what was contained in those diaries. 110 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 3: There are too many diary entries for us to read, 111 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 3: but they show that Folbig was really struggling with motherhood. 112 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: She wrote about feelings of frustration and loneliness. One from 113 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 3: the twenty eighth of January nineteen ninety eight includes an 114 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: account of Folbig getting angry at Laura, who was her daughter, 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 3: because she wouldn't stop crying. She wrote that she almost 116 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 3: purposely dropped her on the floor and left, but she 117 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 3: walked away instead. It says, and I quote, I feel 118 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 3: like the worst mother on this earth, Scared that she'll 119 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 3: leave me now like Sarah did I know? I was 120 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: short tempered and cruel sometimes to her, and she left 121 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 3: with a bit of help. I don't want that to 122 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 3: ever happen again. So these diary entries, and there were 123 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: others like this during her other children's lives were considered 124 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 3: to be damning evidence in her trial. Kathleen Folbig was 125 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: eventually charged with the murder and slaughter of her children. 126 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: It's now been a number of years since she was sentenced. 127 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: What's led to an inquiry into the case. 128 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 3: All these years later, well with the advancement of science, 129 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: medical experts have actually been able to provide new genetic 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: evidence as to what could have caused the children's deaths. 131 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: Sarah and Laura were found to have both had a 132 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 3: mutation in what's called the CALM two gene, which controls 133 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: how calcium is transported in and out of heart cells. 134 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: We now know that these mutations are one of the 135 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: most recognized causes of sudden death in infancy and childhood, 136 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 3: and scientists say that they were able to determine that 137 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: this mutation was, according to their research, the likely cause 138 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 3: of Laura and Sarah's deaths. More recently, scientists have been 139 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: able to make a bit more sense of what happened 140 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: to the fall Big Baby Boys as well. They were 141 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: found to have two different novel and rare variants of 142 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: a gene called BSN or soon. It's a condition that 143 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: can cause early onset lethal epilepsy in mice, and researchers 144 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: are looking into whether this could have been the cause 145 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: of Patrick and Caleb's death, But at this point there 146 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: isn't enough evidence to know for sure. 147 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: And so how is all of this new evidence that's 148 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: come to light thanks to medical and scientific advances coming 149 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: into play at the inquiry? This week, the. 150 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: Inquiry is hearing submissions on this new evidence, especially that 151 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 3: calm to genetic variant I was speaking about before. The 152 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: lead counsel assisting the inquiry has now said that based 153 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: on the evidence, there is reasonable doubt as to Folbig's guilt. 154 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: The Inquiry has also heard psychological and psychiatric evidence about 155 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 3: Folbigg's diaries for the very first time. While experts say 156 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 3: they could be interpreted as containing confessions of guilt, they've 157 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: cast a different light when considered in the context of 158 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: Folbigg's mental health at the time, and that the evidence 159 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 3: suggested that Folbigg was suffering from depress. 160 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: So does all of this mean that Folbig is likely 161 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: to get out of prison? 162 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 3: I mean, that's the big question. So today it will 163 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: be the last day of submissions to this inquiry. From there, 164 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: the presiding judicial officer will have to consider all of 165 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 3: the evidence in deciding whether Folbig's convictions should stand. We 166 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 3: don't know when he'll have to make this final decision, 167 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: but if he finds it there is doubt as to 168 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: Folbig's guilt, he could refer the matter to the Court 169 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: of Criminal Appeal to then review her sentenced. So just 170 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 3: to clear that up, this isn't actually the Court of 171 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: Appeal looking at it themselves. It is an inquiry that 172 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 3: will then feed into that court process. 173 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: It's such an interesting case and it's one that is 174 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: expected to have ramifications on other cases moving forward. What 175 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: are the lessons being identified now for the justice system 176 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: moving forward? 177 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I think one of the really interesting things 178 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: about this trial is what seems to have been the 179 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 3: use of something called Meadow's life law in Falbig's initial trial. 180 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: And Meadow's law is essentially this assumption that's attributed to 181 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 3: a UK pediatrician called Roy Meadow that and this is 182 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: a quote. One Cot death is a tragedy, two Cot 183 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 3: deaths is suspicious and until the country is proved, three 184 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 3: Cot deaths is murder. And so basically what that means 185 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 3: is that the chances of multiple babies dying in one 186 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: family from natural causes is so unlikely that it has 187 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 3: to be suspicious, and this logic is thought to have 188 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 3: influenced Folbig's initial trial, but it's since been rejected as 189 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: a valid form of evidence, and Meadow himself was struck 190 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: off the medical register. And so now we have an 191 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: inquiry interrogating new genetic evidence for the first time, and 192 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: Australian scientists are heralding this as a step towards a 193 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 3: better use of science in the justice system, no matter 194 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: what that outcome looks like. 195 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: With that all said, if this episode has raised anything 196 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 2: for you, you can give Lifeline a call on thirteen 197 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: eleven fourteen. 198 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 3: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to 199 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 3: hit subscribe. So there's a TVA episode waiting for you 200 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: every weekday morning. 201 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: We'll be back again 202 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 3: Tomorrow morning, but until then, have a brilliant day.