WEBVTT - 03 - Meeting a Murderer 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.119 Once a high flying minister, now a broken man. 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.640 It was a significant error of judgment on my part, 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:17.079 but it was an honester. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:22.040 In two thousand and nine, he was found guilty of 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:28.720 corruptly receiving secret commissions and jailed for seven years. In 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.519 twenty ten, he was found guilty on five charges of 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:37.599 official corruption and five charges of perjury and jailed for 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:39.880 an additional seven years. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.560 And I said, but I'm going to get searched. You'll 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:45.400 be right, stick, get down the front of your pants, 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.120 and fuck if I say no, I'm going to get 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.120 the crap belted out of me somewhere down the road. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:01:07.000 My name is Gordon Nuddle, and this is my story. 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:08.440 The Man behind the Rose. Episode three. Hello, my name 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:13.440 is Patrick Condrey. This episode finds us still in maximum security, 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.399 where Gordon Nuttle was to eventually spend more than five 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:22.240 years of his life, a brutal punishment that many now 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:29.520 say was over the top and unnecessarily harsh. Gordon Nuttle 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.920 has not been paid for taking part in this podcast. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:41.000 Last Time, Nuttle revealed that first occasion in maximum security 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:46.399 when it feared he was going to be bashed. Now 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.000 a notorious multiple murderer who was the boss of the 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.840 entire jail. Wanted a quiet word with the former cabinet minister. 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:03.000 And he was mean, that mean, all tough, just me, 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.560 but me. And he's sitting down again. I'm going to 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.400 the oble and he's sitting in a chair and he's 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.959 sitting back there. Someone said, George wants to see you. 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.360 Could you say no? 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.760 No, you don't say no, Well if you can, but 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.800 it's got consequences to that. And George was the tough 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.000 guy in the all of the job. Every wing had 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.480 its tough guy, but he was the toughest of the tough. 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:41.080 I got called over and he said sit down. He said, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.880 I've been watching you. So he said, you're all right. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.160 He didn't give anybody up. There was no one to 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:56.560 give up, but anyone that nothing. You didn't give anybody up. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.200 He said, there might be a favorite to our want 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.840 from me down the rain. Let's bear that in mind, 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:12.000 all right. So a few days later here comes to 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.120 favor in those sage. You can still smoke in the general. 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.000 In that unit where I was isolated, there's ten isolation cells. 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:26.600 There's two that are kept for prisoners like mate, and 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.720 the other eight for the boys. That have been really 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:34.800 naughty in jab and so they strum in isolation. And 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.800 in those isolation shells there's nothing. It's just the walls 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.480 and the toilet, and they're fed by other inmates. The 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.920 other they pulled Trilley along, lift the lid to the 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.560 door and put the food through like that. A few 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.000 days later, I'm at the able. Spake walked up to 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:58.000 me with a pouch of tobacco. Because when you go 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.080 back to yourself after being an be able, you get 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:07.560 searched again. He said, there's a blake in your unit 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.040 that's feeding the boys in isolation. He said, you ought 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.960 to give this to him. He's got instructions to do 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:20.200 something else with it. I said, all right. He said, 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.200 you're going to take it back, and I said, but 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.719 I'm going to get searched. You'll be right. Stick it 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.960 down the front. Stick it down the front of your pants. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:35.880 They won't search you there. Fuck If I say no, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:38.839 I'm going to get the crap belt it out of 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.599 me somewhere down the road. And if the guard catches 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.400 me with this ship, any trusts that they had in 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:53.240 me gone. So I'm between the devil and the deep 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.400 blue sea here. So I stick it down the front, 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:04.599 come up to the guard and I'm, you know, trying 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.719 to stay calm, shipping bricks. So they searched me and 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:14.480 I got through, but sometimes the script searcher they didn't 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.839 and that's why they stript searcher. So I got through 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.800 and I went straight over to this other bike and 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.760 I said here. He said, yep, I've been expecting it. 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.640 And I didn't know who he gave it to, where 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:33.840 it went, didn't know, didn't care, did my job so 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:40.640 out of relief. So you live in that environment. That's 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.880 the environment you live in. And what I learned with 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.080 the guards in their defense, they don't know you. They 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:50.640 don't know whether you're going to play out, where you're 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:52.039 going to behave or what you're going to be like. 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.080 But once you've earnt their trust, you're okay. 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.880 Nottle's time in maximum security still haunts him to this 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.080 day and has followed him to the quiet, sleepy community 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.599 of Woodgate Beach. He might be a free man now, 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.560 but the level of violence he witnessed isn't easily raised 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.279 in terms of your time in maximum security? Do you 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.479 still have nightmares about it? Do you still have flat? 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:20.840 Yeah? 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:25.240 Yeah, they're a lot less frequent, but yeah, I still have. 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.840 Is any one thing that no not urgitated, not. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.440 In particular, you know, one day it might be it 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.680 might be about someone getting bashed up or whatever. 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.080 And did you see people being bashed. 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw, I saw. I looked out 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.359 at the football level and two blocks were up against 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.120 the fence and belting my crap out of each other. 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.400 They were hammer and tong and of course the guards 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.720 come run along and they would have been put in 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:56.080 isolation and probably transferred to different trails. After that, I 0:06:56.080 --> 0:07:00.320 had another fella. I was in my unit. I just 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.640 walked up, he was next to me, bang just decked him. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.680 Didn't like him, didn't like him, just and belt it 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.840 into it. You know, blood everywhere, and it's just so. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.600 Then the one time that I nearly got into trouble, 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.640 I was at the gym and I'd found these old 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.800 lawn bars and I had chunks out of it and 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.840 I cleaned them up, and this fella come to get 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.680 when I said, hang on, mate, hang on, and my 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.960 mate behind me, I didn't realize this black had picked 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:34.440 it up and he was going to bang me with it. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.760 He just come charging and I was getting these balls 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.400 out for people and he come charging and just idiot 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.560 and I said, I hang on, I just hang on, 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.000 and he picked a bup. I didn't see it. He 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.520 picked him up. He was going to bang me on 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.640 the back of the head with it, and one of 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:54.400 the boys stopped him. That was close and one of 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.440 my fellows that I got on with, he said, you 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:02.120 need to be more mindful around you because you just slipped. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.080 You don't think, and he said you need to be 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:10.080 more mindful around you and you're surround school. He said, 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.320 you went really class. He said that could have killed her. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.840 I know it's might be difficult to talk about, but 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.400 did you ever think of self harming yourself? 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.960 No? No, I'm a great believer in I need to 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.119 be careful because it's a sensitive subject for lots of people, 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.960 you know, people like self harm or suicide. There's a 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.880 whole range of issues around that. I felt I had 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.760 too much to live for with my family, and that's 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:49.960 what kept me going. You know. My youngest daughter, Kim 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:55.079 once said to me, every storm has its ending, Dad, 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.080 and at the end of that storm is a rainbow. 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:06.839 And that's truism. At some stage, it ends and that's 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.320 when when I went to the farm, it felt like 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.760 it was the beginning of that end. You know, the 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:19.840 storm was dying. So you know the thing. The thing 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.880 about being a maximum security it's very hard to escape 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:28.600 the misery and find a happy place and find it quiet. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.000 It's nearly impossible to find somewhere where it's quiet because 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:38.199 in your cell there is a speaker built into the wall, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.600 and that thing never shuts up all day. The guards 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.240 are on it all day. Solence I come here, sonce, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.559 I go there. You know you do this, do that, 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.840 and that never stops all bloody day, drives insaying I 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.600 used to get toilet paper and soak it, stick it 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.160 on to try and cut the noise out. You're not 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.560 allowed to do that. Now that I'm f they can't 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:06.160 come again in it. But there was nowhere to go, 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.520 nowhere for peace, nowhere to go for quiet. Even at 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.800 night you'd hear guys screaming and all that sort of stuff. 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.640 So it's very hard to escape that bubble of misery 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:19.680 and be out of that. 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.160 Did you ever fear for his life while he was 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:27.240 in maximum security? 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.160 I wasn't really scared that somebody would kill him. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:31.880 In there. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.400 I was scared that because you know what you think about, 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.959 because you don't know what it's like in there, your 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.480 mind goes to places that. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.400 You did you see in the movie that's right. 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.079 And I remember there was one day there was a 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.960 terrible fight in there, and Dad was very shaken up 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:50.440 about it. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.760 Lisa Nuttel took the lead in coordinating family visits for 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:59.200 her brother and sister and the growing brood of grandchildren 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:01.439 as well was her father's friends. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.920 I was more worried that he would do something to 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.960 himself in there. That was my concern. 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:08.800 He would be soul destroyed. 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.319 Oh devastating. And I'll never forget one day we visited 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:18.400 him and he was empty. He was I don't know 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:20.840 how long this was in maybe an a bit over 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.680 a year, and he was just in his eyes, he 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.200 was just empty and he was really sad that day 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.640 and I just had a feeling and I remember I 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.480 can close my eyes and see this. I hugged him 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.240 and I said, don't do anything, Please, don't do anything stupid. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:41.600 And he said to me that he was thinking about 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:47.480 it at that point and that that visit changed his mind. Yeah, 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.000 so I worried. I knew that if he wanted to, 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:56.839 he could have done something and that would have that 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.160 just would have been devastating. So I was more scared 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:09.360 of that than somebody else hurting him. 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.560 Nuhle's health when he was in the bad place, as 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.920 he refers to his time in maximum security, did deteriorate. 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.360 At one stage, things were so bad the prison nurse 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.600 thought he might die. And even though he was at 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.360 death's door, he still wasn't getting any favors from some 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.240 of the guards. 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:34.400 I collapsed and mysel couldn't stop vomiting. I was in 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.040 a really, really, really bad way. It took me up 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.480 to the infirmary. The nurses tried everything. She said, you 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.000 need to go to hospital with called the ambulance. His 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.160 guard came in, so they handcuffed my hands and I've 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.200 got a sick bag like that, and I'm struggling that 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.360 I was a crook and that out of it. He 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.440 wanted to shackle me. He's standing there was shackled like 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.160 shackle me hands and feet with a chain in between. 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:10.439 He wanted to shackle me. I am in la la land. 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.160 But it's about the treatment of you as if you 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:19.440 were dangerous. And I know that when the ambulance arrived. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.120 There was a discussion I heard it between the nurse, 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.920 the ambo and this guard and they had to fight 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.679 tooth and nail to get this guard to agree not 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.599 to shackle me. But they handcuffed me. They put me 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.080 on the bed and they handcuffed me there on the 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.600 rail of the bed. In the bottom of the PA hospital. 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:45.760 There's a whole section for prisoners. So this is the 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.080 funny part of this. There's got to be a funny 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.840 side somewhere. I'm in them, I'm in the ambulance and 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:54.400 the guy said, look, I'm going to give you a 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.880 bit of stuff here, just to ease the pain and all. 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.960 And I said, oh, thank you for that. He said, 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.080 what did you do before you got here? He said, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:09.840 I was a health minister. He kind of looked at me. 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.439 How in this belief. 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.480 Not all was shaking. As he sat in the prisoner's dock, 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.280 he held his head in his hands and was visibly 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:22.520 fighting back tears. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.680 In the immediate aftermath of his convictions for receiving secret commissions, 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:33.000 corruption and perjury, his former labor mates were not sympathetic. 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.920 These crimes are serious, and frankly, they are reprehensible. I'm 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.960 very pleased to see that the courts have taken them seriously. 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.560 And I'm bla I took over as Premier from Peter 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.920 Beedy in September two thousand and seven and were still 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.920 premiere in two thousand and nine when Nuttle was convicted 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.040 and jailed the first time. 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.120 These are sort of crimes that go to the heart 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.760 of public trust in our system of government. 0:14:56.000 --> 0:15:00.600 In October twenty ten, after Nuttle's second corruption conviction, former 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:05.760 colleagues likened Nuttle's convictions with the long serving Nationals Premiere, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:06.760 Sir Joe B. 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:07.200 LK. 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:11.160 Peterson, who in nineteen ninety one faced criminal trial for 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:16.600 perjury following evidence he'd given to the Fitzgerald inquiry. An 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:22.320 earlier proposed charge of corruption was incorporated into the perjury charge. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.840 Yeah, yeah, I noticed that. But the irony, the irony 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:33.240 of that is that when the Sun Corpse Stadium was rebuilt, 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.040 Peter Betty pushed jar around in a wheelchair, checking him off, 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.200 welcome you here, I hope you enjoy it, and gave 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:45.880 him a state funeral. You've got to put it all 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:46.840 the perspective at it. 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.280 If you had your time again, would you do it 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.800 exactly the same or would you what would you do differently? 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.680 Look, it was a significant error of judgment on my part. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:04.480 I don't shy away from that, but it was an 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.800 honest ere I get it. If you're trying to be 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.480 a crook. If I'm going to be crooked, why would 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.200 I bug our eyes around with three hundred green You know, 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:19.440 none of it made sense, but certainly in hindsight I 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:24.480 can see that people would think businessman politician money exchanged 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:34.720 their crooks. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.920 Good and that'll spend more than five years in maximum 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.120 security and another twelve months at a prison farm before 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.520 serving eight years out on parole, for a total of 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:47.560 a fourteen year sentence. A glance through the sentences of 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:52.360 other politicians who were charged and convicted are illuminating. In 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.520 nineteen eighty nine, former National Party MP Don Lane was 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.080 sentenced to twelve months prison on twenty seven counts of 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.360 misappropriate adding public money. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.080 After six months holding his tongue, Don Lane was ready 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.520 to tell the world the sorry story of his time 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.680 as a guest at Her Majesty's correctional Center. But I 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.400 must say that the shock of being imprisoned behind twenty 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:19.919 foot of razawi and steel gates is not a pleasant one. 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.360 From Parliament House to the courthouse. 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.080 Mister Driscoll, why did you do it? Was it great? 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.680 He asked their rivals supermarket giants, West Farmers and Woolworths 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.320 the secret commissions that were never paid. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.840 More recently, former LPMP Scott Driscoll was sentenced to jail 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:41.040 time after being found guilty of fraud. Sentenced to six 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.640 years imprisonment for fraud and corruption. It'll be at least 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.320 eighteen months before Driscoll serves his time and is eligible 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.160 for parole. So Queensland has a rich history of politicians 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.119 going to jail for doing the wrong thing, but only 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.399 Gordon Nattle had to spend more than five years in 0:17:58.560 --> 0:17:59.680 maximum security. 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:01.600 Can you believe. 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.120 That you had to spend five years in that environment 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:08.080 for what you did. 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:15.719 And it was wrong? And whoever, whoever made those decisions 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:20.960 and did that, that's a million dollar question. The question 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.600 to me is why why don't you progress me like 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.920 any other normal prisoner. And it took my eldest daughter 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:35.400 in a letter campaign to top management as to why 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.359 eventually they should send me to the farm. I mean 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.159 my kid, my grandkids, they're little. They would come and 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.919 visit me in this horrible environment. Even in the visiting 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.480 area it's all caged and all the rest of it. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.679 They would come and visit me, these little ones, and 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.040 there are pedophiles in there there, and I felt like, 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:57.280 you know, I said to my don't bring the kids. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.920 Don't just don't bring them. But the kids wanted to 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.440 see me. But you can't nurse them, you can't hold them, 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.679 you can't cuddle them, and all that sort of stuff. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.400 So actually they were advised not to bring the. 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:17.280 Kids, yes, but we persevered with that. But we sat, 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.080 We tried to sit in a corner. There'd be a 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.760 big group of people visiting it at the same time. 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.920 And did those family visits they help. 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:26.800 You through it? 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.440 Yeah, they do. You look forward to it, but it's 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.679 after the event, when you've got to go and you 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.680 go back to your cell. That's that's when it really 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:47.040 hits you. After those visits. It it's so hard to 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.639 deal with. And I couldn't tell you the number of 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:55.720 times I cried and broke down in my cell on 0:19:55.760 --> 0:20:01.119 my own because after it, before and after the visits, 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.600 you get strip searched. You know, it's humiliating, It is 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:07.080 really humiliating. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:10.000 You know you're not a bad bugger. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:15.479 No, But what I what I never understood was why 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:17.320 they kept me there? 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:18.240 Why? 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.280 What? What? What purpose was that? 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.399 What? To me? 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:29.359 More? Or what or why? My view was that it 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.960 was about they didn't want the perception that I was 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.600 getting any favors, and they didn't want any media around that. 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:43.720 So because of who you were, and we should say 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.400 that that that coughs as a result of the can 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:52.439 cancer that you so, So your view is that because 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.919 of who you were, yes, you spent more time in 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:57.840 maximum security, but. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.359 It wasn't But it wasn't about my welfare either. It 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:02.600 was about their welfare. 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.360 When you say there, well, well the. 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.800 Department or the politicians that he's not getting any special treatment. 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.600 But I didn't ask. All I wanted was to be 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:18.000 progressed through the system like everyone else. And I remember 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.479 the day I finally got to go to the farm. 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:27.119 I got called up and I said, there's a so 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.920 and so from in town's here to see you. Well, 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.479 they called me in, sat me down, she said, And 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.639 this is five and a bit years and I'm still 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:43.679 there maximum security, more than five years maximum security. So 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.679 I've only got eleven and a half months ago to 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:51.560 I'm eligible for parole, and she said, ah, we're going 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:56.640 to send you to the farm. I said, okay, I said, 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.440 what brought this on? She said, out there visiting is 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.840 a lot different, and you'll have an opportunity to one 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.440 closer to your grandkids and all the rest of it 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.320 before your release. And I thought, what a croc of 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.360 shit that is. You know, what a weak, bloody excuse 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.840 that is, you know, And I felt like screaming at her. 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.560 But you're thankful for small mercies. 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.199 But it seems Gordon had a guardian angel in the 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.639 form of his daughter Lisa, who remembers the day well. 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.679 Lisa felt she had a full time job coordinating family 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.639 and friends to visit, wrote letters and made calls to 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:46.320 Governor General, Corrective services ministers, Directors General, trying to get 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.400 her father moved out of the maximum security jail cell. 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.359 And I remember I was ironing and I had this 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.160 final phone call with the DJ because he'd been rejected 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.639 again going to the farm, because he'd have review and 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:02.919 he'd always passed with flying colors, like he was a 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.440 model prisoner. He wasn't doing anything, you know, he kept 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.639 his head down, he did everything right and they just 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.359 kept saying, it's you know, it's they called it the 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:17.280 Curer mail test, so we can't be seen to be 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:21.280 doing you favors. But at this point he was in 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:29.120 Wolston with the murderer of Daniel Morcombe, with Max Seeker, 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:34.200 with you know, people that had committed very violent crimes 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:39.560 against women, children, you know, And it had gotten to 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.080 a point where the guards had said to me, and 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.119 this was probably my final straw, but they said, you 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.000 need to stop bringing the kids here. Now there are 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.160 predators in here and they will find you. You need 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.960 to be very, very careful. And that was when I 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:56.040 kind of ramped up. Okay, we've got to get him 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:01.080 out of here for his sake, for everyone's. But he'd 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.320 had enough to like he was skin and bone. He 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.760 was trying to make the best of the situation as 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.359 it was, but he just we just couldn't understand, Like 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:14.200 year but went by year after year, and it's like, 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:15.760 why aren't they shifting you? 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:15.960 You know? 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:19.520 But I remember I was ironing. I was standing there, 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:22.280 I was ironing, and I was on the phone to 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.000 the DG. And I told her what the guards had 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.600 said to me, and I said, I can't do this 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:32.760 to my kids anymore. We can't do this anymore, I said, 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.840 we can't keep taking our kids there, so you need 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:38.679 to shift him. And when she finally went in to 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:41.040 do another review, she said to Dad that it was 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.840 that that made her make the decision to shift him. 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.200 So that was a really exciting day. If I hadn't 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:51.720 brought up my kids and the guards hadn't have said 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:53.159 that to me that day, I don't know if they 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:56.560 ever would have moved Dad. I don't I don't know 0:24:56.720 --> 0:25:00.240 if they would have, but he really needed was so 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:01.840 worn out at that point. 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:05.640 Meanwhile, back at the prison, it was moving day. 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:07.879 So normally when they send it to the farm, it 0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:10.359 takes a couple of weeks, she told. A couple of 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:15.280 weeks later, she said, you'll be advised, but it won't 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:20.240 be long, Okay, So she went. I got sent back, 0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:22.679 and then about an hour later I got called up 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:25.240 again and there's other officer comes to see me and said, 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:29.280 you're going within the next twenty four hours. You may 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:34.120 be going tonight, you may be going at daylight tomorrow, 0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:37.359 or you may be going at nine o'clock tonight. I 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:40.359 don't know. She said, you've got to go back to yourself. 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:44.200