Speaker 1: Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty
Speaker 1: verdicts against all three defendants.
Speaker 2: It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just
Speaker 2: absolutely really.
Speaker 1: Heavant blood on his clothing the day after the alleged attap.
Speaker 3: A shallow mud bank and it fits through a river.
Speaker 4: Basically, I think most of the people are used to
Speaker 4: me are good people.
Speaker 3: I think a really important question we need to ask
Speaker 3: is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent.
Speaker 1: This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the
Speaker 1: blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of
Speaker 1: our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm
Speaker 1: Amy Maguire and I'm.
Speaker 3: Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service.
Speaker 3: And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased
Speaker 3: peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners.
Speaker 3: So over the.
Speaker 2: Past year of investigating Kevin Henry's case for curtin the podcast,
Speaker 2: we've had numerous questions post to us by listeners and
Speaker 2: one of the main ones is how does Kevin Henry
Speaker 2: think about our investigation? Another one is have we had
Speaker 2: contact with Kevin Henry now Mardin. You've had regular contact
Speaker 2: with Kevin. Can you tell me a little bit about
Speaker 2: his state of mind and what he thinks about the podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I actually spoke to Kevin as recently as
Speaker 4: Monday this week, and we spoke for over an hour
Speaker 4: on the telephone. Kevin is really grateful for the podcast
Speaker 4: and in general the support that it's created. But most
Speaker 4: of all, I think for Kevin, the big thing has
Speaker 4: been the hearing week after week, because he listens as
Speaker 4: well as everyone else to his innocence being proven. And
Speaker 4: I think that's a huge thing for any person who's
Speaker 4: been wrongfully convicted and who's in prison to hear that
Speaker 4: the facts are coming forward, that more evidence is being found,
Speaker 4: but also to know that your own family is hearing
Speaker 4: those things, that your friends are hearing those things, and
Speaker 4: that the community in general is hearing that. Because for
Speaker 4: someone in prison, locked away, they don't have a voice,
Speaker 4: they don't even know what other people are saying. All
Speaker 4: they can do is assume the worst. And when you
Speaker 4: have been found guilty of such a heinous crime and
Speaker 4: you are an innocent person, it just compounds that trauma.
Speaker 4: Of all you know is that everyone surely must just
Speaker 4: think you're one of the worst people on earth, and
Speaker 4: that is a huge burden to carry. So after twenty
Speaker 4: six years, for that to start to be lifted from
Speaker 4: his shoulders is probably the big thing that Kevin takes
Speaker 4: away from the podcast.
Speaker 2: Have you had an insight in to his state of mind,
Speaker 2: how he's actually feeling now given the progress in his
Speaker 2: case to actually prove that he was wrongly collected.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's been an amazing journey this last
Speaker 4: year or so, from the first time I spoke to
Speaker 4: Kevin when we were just getting started with this process
Speaker 4: to now, and I think it's fair to say that
Speaker 4: his state of mind now is a lot calmer. But
Speaker 4: having said that, Kevin has always struck me from the
Speaker 4: very first time I spoke to him as being an
Speaker 4: incredibly calm, well thought, well considered individual. Kevin doesn't say
Speaker 4: things that don't need to be said. He's very clear.
Speaker 4: This is someone who, to me, from the very first
Speaker 4: time I spoke to him, was just so clear in
Speaker 4: his innocence and what is right and wrong. For anyone
Speaker 4: who knows Kevin or has got to know him over
Speaker 4: the years will know that when Kevin speaks about things
Speaker 4: not just his own case, but any case mistreatment of
Speaker 4: Aboriginal people around Australia just thinks he observes in the
Speaker 4: daily goings on in prison. His main concern is about
Speaker 4: whether things are fair and just or not, and it
Speaker 4: comes up in absolutely every conversation. And I think that's
Speaker 4: something that's obviously built a great deal over the years.
Speaker 4: I think it's probably something that he's always had as
Speaker 4: part of him as an individual. But whether we're speaking
Speaker 4: about his own case or things that might be happening
Speaker 4: in the outside world, Kevin is very much focused on
Speaker 4: what is right and what is wrong and really what
Speaker 4: is fair for the people being impacted by the things
Speaker 4: that are going on in the world, whether that's inside
Speaker 4: those walls or whether that's in the broader world. And
Speaker 4: so Kevin has a calmness in that sense, in that
Speaker 4: he doesn't really over complicate things. Things are either the
Speaker 4: way they should be or they're not, and they need
Speaker 4: to change.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 4: As much as people can understand, I think that living
Speaker 4: in jail, spending twenty six years in prison is a
Speaker 4: horrific experience. And we haven't begun, we haven't begun to
Speaker 4: touch on the things that have happened to Kevin over
Speaker 4: those years. But he is a remarkably calm and well
Speaker 4: measured individual and just a very thoughtful and polite man.
Speaker 4: I think he's always spoken about the pride he has
Speaker 4: in his elders, and I think there's a lot to
Speaker 4: be proud in who Kevin Henry is and the way
Speaker 4: he keeps so calm through all of this, Because as
Speaker 4: everyone goes about their business, some people might not pick
Speaker 4: up on the podcast for a few weeks here and there,
Speaker 4: or miss a few episodes. For every decade that's gone
Speaker 4: by in people's lives, Kevin spent that locked behind bars.
Speaker 4: And people can think about the frustration they have when
Speaker 4: a traffic light turns red or they get home ten
Speaker 4: minutes too late because of a train, But twenty six
Speaker 4: years his life has been stopped and put on hold.
Speaker 4: Most of us get frustrated about very small things. Kevin
Speaker 4: is remarkably calm and remarkably strong.
Speaker 2: Now, other true crime podcast, which is what they've been labeled,
Speaker 2: they actually put on the person they're talking about, actually
Speaker 2: on the quick and we've seen that with the most
Speaker 2: famous of the podcast serial where they talked quite a
Speaker 2: lot to the case the person behind the case who
Speaker 2: they were trying to unravel. Why can't we put Kevin
Speaker 2: Henry on the podcast of This Plantite?
Speaker 4: Okay, So most of the true crime podcasts that people
Speaker 4: listen to, including people in Australia, almost all of them
Speaker 4: are from the United States, and prisoners in America almost
Speaker 4: exclusively are able to speak to the media. There's been
Speaker 4: very few prisoners in the United States who have been
Speaker 4: banned contact with the media. So even someone like Charles
Speaker 4: Manson has given multiple interviews, and largely that comes down
Speaker 4: to the First Amendment right that they have enshrined in
Speaker 4: their constitution. In Australia, access to the media for prisoners
Speaker 4: is largely governed by correctives services in each state and
Speaker 4: for the most part it's just simply not allowed. So
Speaker 4: it's not as if we wouldn't like Kevin to be
Speaker 4: able to speak, but he would be breaking the rules
Speaker 4: if he did, and so we are going to do
Speaker 4: nothing that would jeopardize Kevin's bid for freedom a pardon
Speaker 4: and parole. And so that's why Kevin doesn't have a
Speaker 4: voice on this podcast or anywhere else, because in Australia,
Speaker 4: for the most part, it's just not allowed.
Speaker 2: One of the things we haven't really touched on all
Speaker 2: in the podcast is that over his period in prison
Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted, over twenty six years, Kevin Henry's actually picked
Speaker 2: up the pain rush.
Speaker 5: Have you got an.
Speaker 2: Insight into where that talent for right actually came from
Speaker 2: or how it has helped him in dale.
Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and it's a thing about
Speaker 4: Kevin that I noticed from our conversations and about speaking
Speaker 4: to other people. He has many, many talents. Every person
Speaker 4: you speak to Kevin who has known him at different
Speaker 4: times of his childhood or when he was a young
Speaker 4: adult before he was imprisoned, and those who have known
Speaker 4: him since he was imprisoned, many of them will speak
Speaker 4: of different talents. So he was known to be a
Speaker 4: remarkable horseman, a very very good footballer, and as you
Speaker 4: asked about, a great artist and someone who's found a
Speaker 4: lot of comfort in art. Yet I don't think, like
Speaker 4: a lot of us, when we have success in some area,
Speaker 4: I think we all speak about the journey of all
Speaker 4: that or things like that. Kevin is very different in
Speaker 4: that sense in that he simply talks about the joy
Speaker 4: he gets from things. It's never about center centering himself
Speaker 4: in anything you speak of, it's about the activity itself,
Speaker 4: and so something like art gives him a chance. It's
Speaker 4: an escape obviously for many people in prison who take
Speaker 4: up artistic endeavor, but it's also a way for a
Speaker 4: lot of Indigenous prisoners to reconnect with culture, to reconnect
Speaker 4: with country because they've denied those opportunities. You can't walk
Speaker 4: on your country, you can't sit with your family, you
Speaker 4: can't be there. But one thing you can do to
Speaker 4: get that out and feel that again is to put
Speaker 4: it down on canvas, pick up a paint brush. And
Speaker 4: so one thing Kevin has been able to do is
Speaker 4: to explore art and it's certainly something that he wants
Speaker 4: to do when he's released. He's very clear on the
Speaker 4: things he wants to do when he is released. Rugby
Speaker 4: league is a big part of his life. Art is
Speaker 4: a big part of his life. And reconnecting with his
Speaker 4: community and family and helping younger people probably the three
Speaker 4: big passions for Kevin and that give him motivation and
Speaker 4: drive every day.
Speaker 5: We were talking about heaven and Kevin, who currently portrail
Speaker 5: around how women seeing by.
Speaker 4: Society, Well, I think it's a very quick rush to
Speaker 4: judgment on almost everyone's behalf in society. I mean, I
Speaker 4: would say basically all not Indigenous people see Indigenous man
Speaker 4: as criminals. And that's part of why Aboriginal people are
Speaker 4: the most incarcerated people's on earth, the fact that was
Speaker 4: confirmed in an article this week after it was raised
Speaker 4: on an episode of Q and A. But when you
Speaker 4: talk to Kevin, there is not an ounce of criminality
Speaker 4: in who he is. And I've spent more than fifteen
Speaker 4: years dealing with and working with prisoners right around the world,
Speaker 4: prisoners who have been guilty, some who have been guilty
Speaker 4: of some of the worst crimes we can imagine, others
Speaker 4: who are innocent and facing the death penalty. But what's
Speaker 4: quite unique to Kevin is that he doesn't speak about
Speaker 4: any of those things that relate to a criminal life.
Speaker 4: So for many of my clients who might have been
Speaker 4: incarcerated for minor crimes early on in their life and
Speaker 4: then are wrongfully convicted of a love u crime, that
Speaker 4: time in prison can be one that does, unfortunately bring
Speaker 4: them closer to criminal elements because they are imprisoned with
Speaker 4: people who have committed heinous crimes. And it's one of
Speaker 4: the problems with prisons and what it does to people,
Speaker 4: but Kevin just does not have an ounce of that
Speaker 4: in him. It's not something he speaks about. He is,
Speaker 4: like I said before, a very calm, fair minded individual
Speaker 4: who is always focused on what's right and wrong. So
Speaker 4: you can be speaking about the smallest of issues and
Speaker 4: he'll be very quick to point out if something's not fair,
Speaker 4: something's not right. And I think this is so different
Speaker 4: to the idea that so many people have in Australia
Speaker 4: about Aboriginal men, that they're violent criminals who can't help themselves.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's an absurd racist stereotype. And yet here
Speaker 4: is a man Kevin Henry, accused of these horrific crimes
Speaker 4: which we know he didn't do, who's been in a
Speaker 4: brutal institution for twenty six years, and yet that can't
Speaker 4: break who he is either. So I think, if anything,
Speaker 4: we often celebrate those who achieve great success as here
Speaker 4: are the people that defy the stereotype. But I don't
Speaker 4: think that's a clever way or an accurate way to
Speaker 4: do it at all. Kevin is someone from a remote
Speaker 4: area who was in a big regional town, a man
Speaker 4: of little literacy, certainly a man of no fame until
Speaker 4: we created this podcast. Who has been subjected to the
Speaker 4: worst thing any human can be subjected to, which is
Speaker 4: brutal treatment and the deprivation of their liberty, and yet truth, justice,
Speaker 4: love for his family and his friends and just what's
Speaker 4: fair is at the very heart of who he is.
Speaker 4: He is the antithesis of what society says aboriginal men are,
Speaker 4: and yet he is just one of thousands who are
Speaker 4: like that and yet treated as brutal criminals. And I
Speaker 4: think if people want to look at what a great,
Speaker 4: strong black man can be, you don't have to look
Speaker 4: at the people on the footy posters, look at Kevin Henry,
Speaker 4: because he has overcome far more and been deprived of
Speaker 4: everything and yet remains who he is, and he's someone
Speaker 4: who I think is a remarkable, remarkable individual.
Speaker 2: About any influence.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really good question, which is that how
Speaker 4: does any individual in the justice system, whether they're judges,
Speaker 4: jury members, and in this case what we're dealing with now,
Speaker 4: parole boards, get past those biases that they have that
Speaker 4: when they see an aboriginal man or woman before them,
Speaker 4: that there's these automatic assumptions that people make. And I
Speaker 4: think it would be silly to assume that people whose
Speaker 4: society gives great responsibility to such as parole boards can
Speaker 4: somehow automatically look past those biases and that racism. And
Speaker 4: the truth is they don't. Aboriginal people are on remand
Speaker 4: far and away at much much higher numbers than any
Speaker 4: other group in Australian society. So that is judgments being
Speaker 4: made by individuals. In that case, judges Aboriginal people far
Speaker 4: and away exceed their sentences because of denial of parole
Speaker 4: by figures in the thousands of percentages over all of
Speaker 4: Nonindigenous Australia. And you either have to decide that that
Speaker 4: is because those parole boards or judges or juries are
Speaker 4: not giving that Aboriginal person a fair hearing based on
Speaker 4: the fact that they are Aboriginal, or that Aboriginal people
Speaker 4: are somehow intrinsically criminal. Well, we know the second one
Speaker 4: is just not true. So it's just a fact of
Speaker 4: the system we are dealing with that this racism exists,
Speaker 4: and it continues to deprive Aboriginal men and women of
Speaker 4: a right to parole, of a right to liberty that
Speaker 4: they are entitled to. And it happens purely because they're black.
Speaker 4: And so when people are deciding will someone re offend,
Speaker 4: will someone reintegrate into the community, Well, does someone have
Speaker 4: good prospects for work, further education contributing to society. Many
Speaker 4: Aboriginal prisoners, just like Kevin, will undertake many courses, will rehabilitate,
Speaker 4: will turn their life around in relations to drug and alcohol,
Speaker 4: and yet despite all the evidence and hard work they
Speaker 4: put in, are denied by parole boards year after year.
Speaker 4: And I think we can say quite convincingly that this
Speaker 4: has to be only because they are Aboriginal, and the
Speaker 4: facts bear that out absolutely.
Speaker 2: A none other where is so.
Speaker 4: Right now as we speak, all the paperwork has been done,
Speaker 4: all the files are in, All the work that myself
Speaker 4: and some of Kevin's wonderful legal team have done is
Speaker 4: finished in terms of what needs to be done for
Speaker 4: the parole board. And what I can say is that
Speaker 4: in the next couple of days, the Parole Board of
Speaker 4: Queensland will meet and decide the fate of Kevin Henry.
Speaker 4: And until that decision is made, there's not a lot
Speaker 4: more we can do. So, as people can imagine, it's
Speaker 4: a very nervous weight for Kevin. It's a very nervous
Speaker 4: weight for his family and for all of who have
Speaker 4: fought for Kevin, who have shown his innocence, who have
Speaker 4: shown beyond even his innocence, that there is no need
Speaker 4: to keep Kevin Henry in prison one more day. That
Speaker 4: he belongs in his community, he belongs on his country,
Speaker 4: he belongs with his family. He poses no threat to
Speaker 4: society because he never committed this crime in the first place.
Speaker 4: So when weighing up has he rehabilitated, Kevin has made
Speaker 4: huge changes in his life, and I have no doubt
Speaker 4: he's a stronger man, a wiser man, a much more
Speaker 4: well rounded man than he was when he went to
Speaker 4: prison twenty six years ago. But when he went to prison,
Speaker 4: he hadn't committed this crime anyway, So those issues of rehabilitation,
Speaker 4: as far as I'm concerned, go out the window. I
Speaker 4: think if Kevin is given a fair hearing, if the
Speaker 4: facts are examined, if everything is looked at that's been
Speaker 4: put in place, that would allow Kevin to return to
Speaker 4: his family, to engage in the community with his art,
Speaker 4: to follow through his passion for rugby league, for people
Speaker 4: to see everything that Kevin Henry offers, the potential of
Speaker 4: a life that was snatched away, not of his doing,
Speaker 4: when he was just a young man. They were realized
Speaker 4: that releasing Kevin is the right thing to do. When
Speaker 4: we wait and there's no way of giving people any
Speaker 4: indication of which way it may or may not go,
Speaker 4: I wish I knew, and I think a fairer system
Speaker 4: would allow us to know which way something might go.
Speaker 4: I think it's quite cruel that someone can do everything
Speaker 4: asked of them and yet still sit there not knowing
Speaker 4: whether liberty will be granted to them. But in the
Speaker 4: next few days the State of Queensland will make that
Speaker 4: decision about the fate of Kevin Henry, and we will
Speaker 4: update everyone as soon as we know. But again, we
Speaker 4: can only hope that the Parole Board looks at everything
Speaker 4: that's been put before them, considers the man that he is,
Speaker 4: Kevin Henry, and releases him to his family and his
Speaker 4: community where he belongs.
Speaker 3: Is like that.
Speaker 4: Well, Unfortunately, as we've discussed in the past, the Parole
Speaker 4: Board is somewhat hamstrung by the fact that they have
Speaker 4: to consider the final verdict in Kevin Henry's trial. So
Speaker 4: Kevin was found guilty and although we know his innocent,
Speaker 4: so we know and have presented a great deal of
Speaker 4: evidence to prove his innocence, and I should say we
Speaker 4: have a great deal more information as to Kevin's innocence
Speaker 4: and their strategic reasons why we haven't released that to
Speaker 4: the public yet. The Parole Board can certainly take into
Speaker 4: account many of those issues in determining whether he is
Speaker 4: a threat to society. So they might have to base
Speaker 4: their assumptions on a wrong verdict, and they are hamstrung
Speaker 4: in that sense, but they are not hamstrung from the
Speaker 4: facts that have come out over the years. They're not
Speaker 4: hamstrung by the fact that there is this weight of
Speaker 4: evidence as to who Kevin Henry is as a man,
Speaker 4: and that's stuff that has been brought up by those
Speaker 4: who have written on behalf of Kevin Henry individual Psychi
Speaker 4: Trist's reports, reports that are done on behalf of corrective services,
Speaker 4: who have outlined Kevin's good prospects for success in the community.
Speaker 4: And I don't think it's acceptable for the Parole Board
Speaker 4: to simply hide behind a guilty verdict from a flawed
Speaker 4: decision twenty six years ago. We do understand that legislation
Speaker 4: that does impede them in some ways, but that can't
Speaker 4: be the only excuse and it shouldn't be the measure
Speaker 4: of the man, which is this one ill conceived and
Speaker 4: unjust verdict that was handed down twenty six years ago. Now,
Speaker 4: the other thing to consider too is that, like myself,
Speaker 4: Amy came to this case without knowing Kevin Henry personally either.
Speaker 4: So I guess, Amy, what have you learnt about who
Speaker 4: Heaven is and what's been your thoughts and feelings on
Speaker 4: coming to know Kevin Henry throughout this process?
Speaker 2: I guess when when we both again investigating and Heaven
Speaker 2: had Henry in case that the man he was actually
Speaker 2: took second complain.
Speaker 3: To the great and not after it.
Speaker 2: So we were pretty much fighting because of the principle,
Speaker 2: because of that this is man and tendally one hundred
Speaker 2: big thousands of average men and we were not today could
Speaker 2: would have been locked up for crimes as they didn't do.
Speaker 2: But over the course of this this podcast, learning what
Speaker 2: Kevin and Harry like, learning what his family is like
Speaker 2: and the being, and then about just how your cover
Speaker 2: the song.
Speaker 5: The Man has taken san and age.
Speaker 2: I think because we're not not just fighting the principle
Speaker 2: for humanity and when by writing is someone who is
Speaker 2: not deserved and had deserved the right to the rest
Speaker 2: of these days with the free freedom and with the
Speaker 2: sense that justices that would have bailed.
Speaker 5: And I think that's a bigiggest thing.
Speaker 3: My let.
Speaker 4: Is a fail.
Speaker 5: He really loves his community, he loves his time.
Speaker 2: Country, and I think, you know, he was given him
Speaker 2: a chance.
Speaker 5: He could have really had had a great life.
Speaker 2: He was at the time he was convicted, he was
Speaker 2: on his way to laugh employment.
Speaker 5: We don't really know where he would have ended up,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 2: I think that the really sad thing that he was
Speaker 2: really stupid of any sort of opportunity to do that.
Speaker 2: And then we talked a lot about how aboriginal man
Speaker 2: I think, and it's fundamentally is so very different about
Speaker 2: average women. The majority of about average man accolutely are
Speaker 2: And so I really really feel that as this podcast is,
Speaker 2: you know, fundamentally about can Evan, who is the justice
Speaker 2: that really evolved the whole community?
Speaker 4: And I get I really came in the moment aiming
Speaker 4: for me as well. I think despite having worked with
Speaker 4: a lot of prisoners over the years, so many of
Speaker 4: these cases, as you said, it starts as an investigation
Speaker 4: both of us coming at it from different angles to
Speaker 4: look into what happened once we saw this huge injustice,
Speaker 4: to try and bring justice to Kevin, but you just
Speaker 4: can't help but be drawn in by the man and
Speaker 4: his family and who he is as a human being.
Speaker 4: And that's a process I think we've both gone through
Speaker 4: throughout this journey of whether we're doing tackling it forensically
Speaker 4: as a journalist or from the legal perspective, that more
Speaker 4: and more it's been about us too being drawn to
Speaker 4: Kevin and his family and a personal insight into the
Speaker 4: injustice that's committed against all Aboriginal people who are treated
Speaker 4: this way by the justice system. And I really do
Speaker 4: hope people take that away what you said about Kevin too,
Speaker 4: that whenever you hear about stats about the incarceration rates
Speaker 4: of Aboriginal Ontario Strait Island men and women and children,
Speaker 4: forget the pure numbers. They're shocking. We all know that,
Speaker 4: Remember that every single one of them stands for a
Speaker 4: person like Kevin Henry and his family. Think about what
Speaker 4: Amy said about being stripped of his potential of who
Speaker 4: knows what he could achieved, And think about yourself where
Speaker 4: you draw pride and what keeps you going about the
Speaker 4: things you have achieved and how that brings pride to
Speaker 4: your family, and if you've got children, how they're achieved
Speaker 4: brings you pride. And they are all these things you
Speaker 4: can celebrate, from small little things to what happens at
Speaker 4: weekend sport, to employment and having children and great friendships
Speaker 4: and adventures we share. Kevin's been robbed of all of that,
Speaker 4: and every Aboriginal and Terrestraight Islander person and family who
Speaker 4: is going through this or has been through it, has
Speaker 4: been robbed of that. And so when the parole Board
Speaker 4: meets in the next couple of days, they can decide
Speaker 4: whether that crime against Kevin Henry, just like it's a
Speaker 4: crime committed against so many Aboriginal and entires Strait Islander people,
Speaker 4: will continue, or whether it will end, and finally Kevin
Speaker 4: will get some chance to live out his potential a
Speaker 4: free man, as he always should have been