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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just on answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson. Welcome to a Happy

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Speaker 2: Famili's podcast. Thomas Current, Professor Thomas Current is a British

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Speaker 2: Psychological Society Charted psychologist and an Associate Professor in the

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Speaker 2: Department of Psychological and Behavioral Science at the London School

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Speaker 2: of Economics. A world leading expert on perfectionism. This year

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Speaker 2: he published his debut book, The Perfection Trap and Doctor

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Speaker 2: Thomas Current is also a dad. It's a little baby,

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Speaker 2: not quite one.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Justin. It's wonderful to be here. I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited about conversation.

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Speaker 2: When I hear you say that perfectionism ultimately is a

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Speaker 2: question of people feeling that they are not enough. Our

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Speaker 2: kids feeling like they are not enough. They can't be enough.

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Speaker 2: No matter how well they do, it's still never enough.

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Speaker 2: It takes me back to another paper that you wrote

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Speaker 2: just a couple of years ago, where you described how

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Speaker 2: perfectionism has been steadily increasing in our kids for a

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Speaker 2: couple of decades. Now, Number one, is this trend continuing

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Speaker 2: end Number two? If it is, why, oh.

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Speaker 1: Good there's mean that number two is a really big question,

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Speaker 1: But I'll start with the first one. Yes, it is rising,

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Speaker 1: and we know it's still rising because I updated the

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Speaker 1: data for my book The Perfection Trap, which are just published,

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Speaker 1: to get you know, a really good snapshot what's going

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Speaker 1: on right now, and what we see in that data

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Speaker 1: is something really really worrying. So socially prescribed affectionism is

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Speaker 1: skyrocketing right now. It's on an exponential curve. It's about

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Speaker 1: forty percent up from the from the lowest points to

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Speaker 1: the very top where it is today. And exponential curves

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Speaker 1: are doing what exponential curves do, you know? Fast increasing

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Speaker 1: today and it's going to grow even faster into the future.

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Speaker 1: We have to be aware, we have we have to

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Speaker 1: be aware of that. We really do that, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you think about the links between your socially pbscribe

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Speaker 1: affectionism and psychological distress and difficult team and then you

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Speaker 1: look at the allied trends that are unfolding right now

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Speaker 1: among young people, you know, increase rates of anxiety depression,

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Speaker 1: particularly among teens. It's something that I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not the only piece to this puzzle, but I

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Speaker 1: think those skyrocking novels are perfections and social puria perfectionism

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Speaker 1: are certainly underneath quite a bit of what of these

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Speaker 1: more observable mental health struggles among young people.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those things that really troubles me because

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Speaker 2: I'll talk to so many parents who say, but I

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Speaker 2: don't put these expectations on my kids. But when you

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Speaker 2: talk to the kids, they're saying, everyone expects so much

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Speaker 2: of me. My parents put so much pressure on me,

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Speaker 2: my teachers put so much pressure on me. The world

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Speaker 2: expects so much of me. Who's right.

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Speaker 1: I think the kids are right. But what I will

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Speaker 1: say is this, I don't think it's any one person's fault.

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Speaker 1: I think the world has become much more challenging for

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Speaker 1: young people. And if you really want to get at

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Speaker 1: the number of it, what we're seeing is a saular

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Speaker 1: stagnation in undeveloped economies right now. And you can, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can attribute that to all sorts of different things.

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Speaker 1: Rise in inflation, increased cost of getting energy out of

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Speaker 1: the ground, We've got overhang of debt, aging populations. You know,

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Speaker 1: the list goes on like a ten tongue anchor that's

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Speaker 1: hanging on growth and The difficulty is there's not much.

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Speaker 1: The opportunities are dwindling, the middle classes are hollowing out.

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Speaker 1: You find it, for the first time ever, young people

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Speaker 1: aren't guaranteed to have the same standard of life as

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Speaker 1: their parents. And all this is due to secular forces

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Speaker 1: that nobody out there can do anything about. But what

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Speaker 1: does that look like on the ground, Well, it looks

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Speaker 1: like increased competition for the best school places, to get

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Speaker 1: into the best colleges, because those are the places where

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Speaker 1: you're going to guarantee yourself some access to the best jobs,

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Speaker 1: which right now are the only jobs that are growing

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Speaker 1: in terms of pay packets. So all of this pressure,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's not just it's not just in

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Speaker 1: the academic sphere. It's also on social media. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at all the perfect lives and lifestyles at

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Speaker 1: the very elite and wondering why on earth we aren't

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Speaker 1: having that, or why on earth we feel like we're

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Speaker 1: always running on an uphill treadmill that doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be going anywhere. There's all of these pressures out there

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Speaker 1: that are weighing on everybody, not just young people. Parents

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Speaker 1: see these pressures, they pass them down to their kids

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Speaker 1: because they know it's important right now more than ever

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Speaker 1: to do well in school. The young people then are

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Speaker 1: seeing those pressures from the parents, they're also seeing them

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Speaker 1: from the teachers. The point I'm making here justin is that, yes,

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Speaker 1: the kids are right. I think they are experiencing a

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Speaker 1: lot more pressure. There's certainly a pressure that they feel

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Speaker 1: is excessive. But I don't think it's any one person's fault.

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Speaker 1: I think we're living through right now. And then you

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Speaker 1: know a moment where pressures are just increasing and young

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Speaker 1: people full stop, and everybody who is around those young

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Speaker 1: people are certainly radiating those pressures back at them. I

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Speaker 1: think that's what's going.

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Speaker 2: If I'm looking for solutions for parents who know that

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Speaker 2: they're perhaps pushing their kids perfectionism a little hard, or

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Speaker 2: they're being perfectionistic in their desiyes for their children to succeed,

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Speaker 2: how do parents step back from unhealthy and perfectionistic expectations.

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Speaker 2: Because it feels like you're cheating, right, Like it feels

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Speaker 2: like there's something wonderfully validating about saying, but you can

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Speaker 2: do more, and you can push harder, and you can

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Speaker 2: grow and expand and be the best you can be.

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Speaker 2: There's something in that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So really, I mean, it's a really really good question,

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Speaker 1: and I get asked this a lot, and there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of pushback. I mean, there's some of the

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Speaker 1: criticism of my book that's come from big mainstream outlets

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal and the economists is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is and we're going to need a little bit

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Speaker 1: of perfectionism for success. I think this is a complete

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Speaker 1: misunderstanding of what perfectionism is. Number one. And also this

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Speaker 1: idea that just more automatically means better, that's not what

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Speaker 1: the data says. If you look at the relationship with

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Speaker 1: infections and performance, there's a low relationship to non existent

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Speaker 1: relationship between those things. Why is that. You know, it's perplexing,

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Speaker 1: but it's actually quite simple when you think about it.

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Speaker 1: Perfections work hard, but they work too hard, so they

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Speaker 1: burn out. It's an unsustainable form of driving number one.

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Speaker 1: But they also do something really interesting when they encounter

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Speaker 1: setbacks and challenge, and that's what they self sabotage. Because

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Speaker 1: the imperative for the perfectionist person is to avoid failure,

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Speaker 1: and they will avoid failure so intenally that the sabotage

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Speaker 1: is there's chances of success just to avoid it. And

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Speaker 1: that looks like all sorts of things. But we put

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Speaker 1: people in the lab time and time again. We put

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Speaker 1: them in situations of challenge, and then when they've encountered

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Speaker 1: a failure, let's say they give them a task to do,

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Speaker 1: a sports task or a puzzle. We said, go ahead,

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Speaker 1: do it. No, unfortunately you fail, but it's okay, have

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Speaker 1: another go. The non perfections to people don't only change

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Speaker 1: the refort the second time. In fact, they work a

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Speaker 1: little bit harder. But perfectionistic people their effort falls off

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Speaker 1: a cliff because the shame and embarrassment of failing in

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Speaker 1: that moment is so intense. I don't want feel those

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Speaker 1: feels feelings again, so they essentially just hold themselves back.

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Speaker 1: They withdrawal because you can't fail as something you didn't try.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not going to do that again because I

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Speaker 1: feel so intensely self conscious. And it's not just to

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Speaker 1: withdrawal the perfections people do. They also procrastinate, and procrastination

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Speaker 1: is a strong signature of the perfections for these gat

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Speaker 1: reasons and anxiety management technique. So you know, unsustainable over

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Speaker 1: work combined with intense amounts of self sabotage. I mean

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Speaker 1: that perfectionistic people are no more likely to succeed. In fact,

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Speaker 1: they're less likely to succeed the non perfectionistic people. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is the myth we really have to

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Speaker 1: break through. Number One, that actually it's not about more

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Speaker 1: and more and more work, work, work, and avoid it

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Speaker 1: all costs. The indignity of failure is actually about a

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Speaker 1: different way of thinking about what success is. That actually

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Speaker 1: it's not about more, and sometimes what's most important is

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Speaker 1: that we're allowing ourselves ifail, you're a mistakes, set backs, imperfections,

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Speaker 1: vulnerabilities into our lives. We're letting those things in and

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Speaker 1: wash through us as joyous reminders of actually what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a human being. These are the things

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Speaker 1: we should be celebrating, you know, not the elite it's

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Speaker 1: perfect ten out of ten performances, because those things are

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Speaker 1: so fleetings, so rare, and so almost unhuman. Actually when

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Speaker 1: you look at how often they we are able to

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Speaker 1: do those things, what's more human is those moments are

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Speaker 1: fair set back in challenges. So that's really I think

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing we have to break through, because it's

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Speaker 1: so so important, not just understanding well being also understanding

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Speaker 1: performance too.

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Speaker 2: One last question as we wrap up, because our time

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Speaker 2: is well and truly spent, there are a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of parents who are actually pretty chill, but the children

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Speaker 2: show up with perfectionistic traits. So the parents are modeling

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Speaker 2: being relaxed about making mistakes, They're having conversations about contingencies

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Speaker 2: if things don't work out so well. They're helping their

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Speaker 2: children to know that it's not that big of a deal.

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Speaker 2: But in the kids' minds it is. They've absorbed the

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Speaker 2: messages from somewhere and they just think they have to

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Speaker 2: be perfect. What, if anything, can you advise parents whose

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Speaker 2: children are struggling under this weight of self inflicted, self oriented,

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Speaker 2: self prescribed perfectionism.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I'd say is that it's so so

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Speaker 1: important to remember that this is not your fault. That

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of things outside of our control,

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Speaker 1: a lot of way of pressures that are put on

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Speaker 1: young people outside of the household and the home that

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Speaker 1: impact on their belief systems and the things that they

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Speaker 1: think are important. I think that's so so important. Also,

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Speaker 1: every young person is different, and you know there's a

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Speaker 1: Judith Harris very faint developmental psychologists said that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you go into parents who with the best of intentions,

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Speaker 1: and then you realize very quickly that you reduced nothing

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Speaker 1: more than the helpless spectator. And that's also so important

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Speaker 1: to recognize something that I'm going to have to remember

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Speaker 1: as I as I become a parent of a grown

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Speaker 1: children myself, because I think that takes a lot of

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Speaker 1: pressure off personal power responsibility. That you can shape and

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Speaker 1: change everything and every last detail about you. You can't.

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Speaker 1: You just simply can't. And that's actually okay, It is okay.

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Speaker 1: What you can do is create a loving, warm environment

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Speaker 1: for young people that's got a consistency of approval and love.

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Speaker 1: That's very important, and that reminds them all times it

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Speaker 1: is okay to make mistakes that they say okay to fair.

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Speaker 1: These are very humanizing experiences and lead by example in

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Speaker 1: that respect. That's the most important thing. Those big broad

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Speaker 1: philosophical things that you take into your parenting and make

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Speaker 1: sure you apply them. But just remember that it's tough.

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Speaker 1: It's not an easy thing to do to be a parent,

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Speaker 1: and you're doing an amazing job. So keep going.

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Speaker 2: Okay and stop striving perfectionism in parenting because it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 2: There is no such thing as a perfect parent.

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Speaker 1: No, well that's what Donald Widencook said, right, not the

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Speaker 1: perfect mother. Don't try and be perfect. It's not good

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Speaker 1: for you. It's never going to happen because it's impossible

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Speaker 1: in it. But it's not good for a charity. They

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Speaker 1: need to experience that. But they need to see that

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Speaker 1: failure is a part and passive life because that's what

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Speaker 1: creates around it human being.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. The Perfection Trap is the book

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Speaker 2: by Associate Professor Thomas Current from the London School of

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Speaker 2: Economics at Tom thank you so much for your time

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Speaker 2: and for joining me on The Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 1: Than you, Justin, has been a wonderful conversation.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd

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Speaker 2: like more info about making your family happier, check out

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Speaker 2: Tom Curran's book The Perfection Trap. The Perfection Trap is

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Speaker 2: available where every Body your books, or of course, you

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Speaker 2: can visit us at Happy Families dot com dot au.