WEBVTT - Kiss of Death 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:16.200 This is the case of Marion Barter, a mother, teacher 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:21.320 friend missing for twenty six years. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.040 You know, no sign that she was going to vanish. 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:25.480 That's for sure. 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.040 The bizarre circumstances surrounding her disappearance. 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.240 I'm not sure if it was intentional or there's something 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.120 more foul afoot. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.080 If you could imagine a teacher coming straight from say 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.400 little house on the prairie to the eighties, that was 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:45.000 Marion Barter. What I say, whether you find Marian Barter 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.000 dead or alive, I honestly believe somebody has that key 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:50.559 piece of information. 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.760 And the relentless quest of a daughter to find her mum. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:59.440 Something had happened, Something has happened to make her leave. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.920 I am one hundred percent sure, one hundred percent sure 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:05.080 that somebody knows something. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:19.240 The lady vanishes, Episode fifty five. I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:21.160 And I'm Brian Seymour. 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.760 Our deep dive on Rick Blum continues. It's clear, as 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.520 pointed out by many experts, including criminal analyst Laura Richards, 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.800 that understanding this man, along with interrogating his pattern of 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.800 behavior and what he's capable of, is integral to the 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:49.160 investigation into what happened to Marian Barter. One man we 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.720 have heard about but never spoken with, is Michael Reid, 0:01:53.160 --> 0:02:00.800 Evelyn's stepfather. Michael was married to Evelyn's mother alone, whom 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.840 he met after she separated from Willy Wooters or Rick Blum, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:11.320 who is Evelyn's biological father. Michael says he and Alona 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:16.320 also had a child together, Christopher. However, on his birth certificate, 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:22.400 his father is listed as Willie Wooters. When Alona died 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:26.079 in nineteen seventy seven, the impact on all their lives 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:32.919 was immense. As discussed in previous episodes, there are many 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.200 issues with the way her death was handled and whether 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.240 there could be much more to it than was previously acknowledged. 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.280 Brian contact of Michael read and after initially rejecting his 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.280 request for an interview, I sent him the list of 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.680 questions and he changed his mind. Hello, Hi, Michael, It's 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.440 Alison Sandy. How are you. At the start of the interview, 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.639 he announced it was also being recorded. At his end, 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:00.760 are you there. 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:01.720 We're recording? 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:02.920 Can you hear me, Michael? 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:03.920 I can? 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.640 Oh? Good. Hey. First of all, thank you for talking 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.560 to his Michael. I've just got some questions I think 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.120 you've seen them in a print form, So I'll just 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.480 ask away, can you tell us about your relationship with 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.640 Willie Wooters also known as Frederick de Heeadvery and also 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:20.200 known as Rick Bloom. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.960 I had no relationship with him. The only time I 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.600 met him was at a ferry terminal when Ilona and 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.600 I were going back to England and he arrived, and 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.760 I never spoke with him. He took Elona out to 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.880 the car and they spoke, and Eloner came back to 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:42.800 me and we bordered the vessel and went to England. 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.760 And that's all I can tell you of my personal 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:46.800 dealings with him. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.040 And when was that? Do you remember when that fairy 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:49.520 trip was? 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.320 It would have been seventy's, either seventy or seventy one. 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.160 And what did a loaner tell you about? Well, Willie 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:56.440 Wooters as he was then. 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.880 She never told me a great deal. They argued arguments, 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.880 but the only thing became raised one time and hit 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.800 him on the head with a bottle. And Ilona wasn't 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.520 the type of person who becoming raised. She was a 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.560 very sweet and gentle person. I knew nothing of his 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:20.400 prior history, and Ilona never mentioned anything to me of 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:22.920 his prior history where we were together. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:24.800 And do you know anything about what you told me 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.400 a bit about the relationship between a loner and Willie. 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.360 Did he mention anything else, such as any other incidents 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.280 of violence or infidelity? No. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.920 Another thing she told me was that before she was 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.440 due to get married, one of the wives, or the 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.360 previous wife, knocked on her door and said, you're getting 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:51.000 yourself into big trouble here. Don't do it. He's not 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:51.799 a nice man. 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.039 And would you remember the name if I told you? 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:54.960 Was it Nicole? 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.479 It was the previous wife, his previous I think he 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.640 was married three times, so it would have been It 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.360 was a Belgium lady, I think. And I can't remember 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:03.800 the name. 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.600 That there were actually two wives prior to a Look, 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:07.000 it's a. 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.640 Long time ago, man, I just can't. I can't recall. 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.720 Okay, And did you know that that Willy was a 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.960 convicted convent before he met Elona? 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:22.880 Yes, I can't recall if I was with her, but 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:29.040 I did find an article in a French paper which 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.880 stated that he was found with seventeen different passports under 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:38.280 seventeen different aliases. The only other thing that I recall 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:42.960 about also is Ilona told me that he had hired 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.040 a car in Switzerland I think, and sold it in Italy. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:47.000 It's a Porsche. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:47.280 No. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.719 And then she said to me he was a gambler. 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.839 She said, he used to go out gambling and sometimes 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.440 she'll get nice rings at the next minute that disappear. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:05:59.960 To that point, did will he ever ask you for 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.000 money or try to scam you? 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:02.200 No? 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.240 Never never had any contact with him at all. Oh 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:11.200 there was there was, Yes, I think I can honestly say. 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.560 There was an incident which I've just record. We had 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.599 paperwork come through. It was all in French and it 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.520 advised I think it was to either every nor Ilono. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.880 I can't remember, but somebody had died in Belgium supposedly 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.880 and they if they paid all the taxes, they would 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.240 get all the properties or something like that. I always 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:41.080 wish I'd have kept that paperwork. So there was a 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.800 document that came from overseas, obviously from him trying to 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.200 scam and I took it to a friend of mine 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.480 and he said, a Belgian friend of mine, and he 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.480 read it and I said, he said to me, forget 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:55.040 all about it. 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.360 So it clearly was some kind of attempt to scam 0:06:58.400 --> 0:06:59.400 you think, oh. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.360 Yeah, yeah, for me, definitely a scam. 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:03.520 And what would the scam have been, do you know? 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.400 Well, the scam would have been that if all the 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.600 back taxes had been paid, which is what they were 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.600 after the money for the backpack tax taxes, all the 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:21.280 properties of this person would then be assigned to either 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.760 a loaner or everything a loaner had died then, So 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.760 it was definitely to everylin. It was definitely to everything 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.280 that was very that was she was very young then. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.040 I can't remember the age, but it was very suspicious. 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:36.600 I'll tell you what. Now this has all come out, 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.960 I wish I had kept the documents or the doctrines 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:39.360 I had. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.840 Okay, Michael, just on that so dis uncle, it appears 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.240 that this was a document asking you or someone on 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:51.840 Evalen's behalf to pay money to then access the rights 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.200 to the property. Yeah, and the scam element might have 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:56.920 been that you would pay the money and not get 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:57.960 the rights to the property. 0:07:58.040 --> 0:07:59.480 Well, well, that's exactly right. 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.720 Michael appears to be referring to Evelyn's four million franc 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.880 debt in relation to the death of Freddie David Rick 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.400 Bloom's brother. We are still investigating this, but we believe 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.840 the debt was real. However, it is uncertain whether it 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.000 was racked up by the real Freddie David or by 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.480 Rick Bloom, who used that name as one of his aliases. 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.560 We move on to questions about Ilona's inheritance after her 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:31.280 mother died. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:37.920 Well, this is a very interesting situation. When Loona's mother died, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.559 there was a percentage of the property that was left 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:48.600 to Ilona, but because Ilona had passed on, it was 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:54.080 to go equally divided to both the two siblings. Now, 0:08:55.280 --> 0:09:01.640 I had no information or dealings with that money. 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.320 You will recall that Evelyn visited the office of the 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.640 notary who drew up a private agreement relating to her 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:14.680 grandmother's estate allegedly signed by Willie wooters a Ka, Rick Blum, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.800 Joseph Birou, and Michael Reid, which sounds a lot like 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.520 the deal Read is now describing, except he says he 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:23.280 was not a. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:23.760 Part of it. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:32.880 That money was directed to both the children. I never 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.120 knew how much they got and I was told nothing. 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:47.160 Now going further, Joseph Kinsell died in Hungary and also 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:54.280 left money to both the children that I know nothing 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:59.840 of either. I know nothing of how it was sorted, 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.560 on how they were paid. And I'd also like to 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.880 answer the question on behalf of my dear wife that 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:15.520 passed away, God bless a soul. Edward Bill was her boss. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.480 She was a hairdresser. He called me up and he said, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.520 come in, we might be able to get some workers' 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.319 compensation here for you or the children. I have the 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.040 forms here, come and fill them in. I went into 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:35.960 Southierra where Ilona worked, filled out the paperwork, and there 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:43.400 was compensation awarded to both the children, of which I 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:49.440 had no control over whatsoever. It was organized by the 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:56.080 insurance company that paid out now was her cousin, and 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:01.520 informed Evelyn at the age of sixteen or seventeen, or 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.600 it might have been younger, that compensation money had been 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:12.560 paid and that your father, who's me, knows all about it. 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:12.920 Well. 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:18.120 I was never questioned by Evelyn. She followed up and 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:25.000 went into to the city and she procured her part 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:31.120 of the money when it wasn't I think they weren't 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.160 allowed it till they were eighteen, but I'm not sure. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:40.240 But anyway, and she told Chris of this, and he 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:45.240 also did the same. I know nothing about when they 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.040 did it. I know that Evelyn bought a car with 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.840 her money. My wife with me now was with me 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.520 when she'd bought the car. I know Chris had brought 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:56.800 a motorbike with his money. 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.800 Here Michael makes a critical and personal care arter assessment 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.600 of his children, which we won't share with you. Suffice 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.560 to say he claims they got all the money and 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:08.760 he got nothing. 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.839 The property in Brussels where I lived with Ilona was 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:19.840 a joint property between her mother and Joseph Birerou, and 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:26.040 they had another property that they were both property owners 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.520 of that Now, when Ilana's mother died, I believe that 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:32.880 they sold the one and put it all into the other, 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.880 because I was helping at the time him do the 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:40.800 central heating and working in the property before we left 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:41.439 for Australia. 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.360 And so did you strike any agreement with Joseph Birou 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.680 and Willie Wooters about that property? 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:55.680 There was no agreement discussed, There was no agreement signed. 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:01.600 And what he's whoever said that it was agreement that 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:08.480 I could have Evelyn I procure I. Ilona's death left 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:13.160 me with Evelyn and Chris, and at the time Chris's 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:18.480 name was Woters. Because he was born in Brussels before 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.680 the divorce came through and before the name change came through, 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.679 if you really want to get into the degritty of it. 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.839 And it took me hundreds of dollars with a no 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:34.280 tear in Belgium to get Chris's name into read because 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:35.040 he was my son. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.120 Just to avoid confusion, this is actually wrong. Chris was 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.160 born in Tournay, not Brussels. Back to the interview, did. 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.120 You also change Evelyn's name at that time? 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.760 Evelyn was everly woters never changed her name. We came 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.880 to Australia and everything was in the name of Reed, 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.240 so she's always been known in Australia as Reed. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:59.600 Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. She was she known 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.839 as Reed because you basically told her her name was 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:02.560 Zebelin Reed. 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:03.240 That's right. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.240 Can I just interrupt here just to check with that 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.960 private agreement because my understanding, and this is why it 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.960 seems seems to be the case. My understanding was that 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.600 they were underage at that time, so that's why there 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.360 had to be a private agreement between yourself, Rick Blum, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.000 being Evelyn's father, and Joseph Bireau, and that was the 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.880 evidence that we saw in Belgium that there was a 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.880 private agreement there, and that was when Rick Blum told 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:36.280 Evelyn subsequently, although he didn't mention that he was part 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.720 of it, that the deal was that Bureau kept the 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.160 property and you kept Evelin. 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:48.840 Well, someone saidly lies here because I was totally unaware 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.320 of any agreement as such. 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.200 But you would have had to have acted on their behalf, 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.600 given that they were underage, like they couldn't have signed 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.760 for that, so somebody had to. I would have thought 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.720 you and blam, I suppose if he was going by, 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:05.360 you know, being the father. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:10.760 As far as I'm concerned, there was no interaction in 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:15.360 any of this with Bloom. As far as I'm concerned that, 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.160 as far as I know or to my knowledge, there 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.840 was no agreement whatsoever about me keeping Evelyn. That is 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.040 a load of codswallop. He also lied. He also lied, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.440 he didn't even know. He said he's seen her once, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.920 And that was a total lie, because I know that 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:43.560 Ilona had behind my back or taken Evelyn to see voters. Now, 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.720 we weren't married then, we were just very in the 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.520 very early stages of a concubine of living together. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.240 Did you just deal with bureau then, and you're saying 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.960 this private agreement, which we did see evidence of. 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.920 There was no agreement. I've never seen an agreement. I 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.560 was never part of agreement. Who's clay, where's this agreement 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:02.840 supposed to have originated? 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.680 Well, if there was any agreement for the kids to 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.400 get anything, it would have to have been signed off 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.880 by an adult, not by them. No, that's the confusion. 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:23.240 If there's an amount of money awarded for inheritance, the inheritance. 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.760 I believe that Ergie met me Elizabeth in English, but Jie, 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.520 she loved those children and she had daughter daughter. Now 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.120 she knew she was dying, she had cancer. And Ilona 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.080 went back in the October for three months and came 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.480 back what was that seventy six, and came back in 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.680 seventy seven. We moved into the house in February of 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.200 seventy seven. She died of a heart attack on the 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:57.480 thirteenth of July, six months later. Five months later, and 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.240 as far as I was concerned that the children in 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.080 my care and I was the responsible parent and left 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:08.760 to bring them up. Attila, her brother actually came out 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.760 to see me and the children. God bless his little 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:17.840 socks and unfortunately two years later, at twenty one, he 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.840 walked into his father's property Claps and died of a 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:26.040 brain hemorrhage. She was in the German Air Force or Army, 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.760 and he died of a bay brain hemorrhage. Now you know, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:35.600 the whole family was a travesty. Ilona died that she did, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.600 Her mother died three months later in September, and then 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:43.159 Attila died. What made me laugh last night was Livy 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.399 was reading out some information on this Willie Waters with 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:51.440 the names and one of his synonyms was Attila, Attila somebody, 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:53.879 and we just looked at each other. We just couldn't 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.159 believe what this man's up to. But getting back to 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:02.280 my situation with these children were wonderful to me because 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.560 she was Catholic alone and we had them in a 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.400 Catholic school and they had organized for Chris to go 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.040 to one of the top schools in Geelong when he 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.879 was five, just five, and the nuns organized for Evelyn 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:24.760 to go to a convent in South Melbourne. And I 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.800 turned around and said, look, these children have just lost 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.440 their mother, they're not going to lose a man, a 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:35.720 father figure. And well, from there it went on and look, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.439 it just it was a it was a travel. The 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.600 whole the whole situation for the family was a travesty, and. 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.479 So both children ended up going into what good homes. 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.960 I got to the situation. I had friends saying to me, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.320 you can't look after the children, have to do something 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.639 with them, and I said, no way, and the nun said, well, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.920 look we've got a Catholic family welfare home in black 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.840 Rock where an older couple look after four or five children. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:05.360 And I finally agreed much too, that's my own feelings. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.560 I put them in there and I wanted to see. 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.600 I said, I'll come to see every weekend. Well, they 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.920 decided that I could assume every weekend because they wanted 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.360 me to have a life. So anyway, I saw them 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:20.480 on the regular basis and helped financially pay for their upkeep. 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.560 But it was a tough time for all. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.680 So was there any time that you were not the 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.119 legal guardian for Chris and Evelyn when they were children, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:33.800 were either of them wards of the state. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.199 I was a legal guardian all the time. There was 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.520 never any judgment made by any court. As far as 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.800 everybody was concerned, I was their father. 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.520 No, it wouldn't need to be a judgment. But you know, people, 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.080 when you say you handed the children over to a 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.600 group home, did you also relinquish guardians legal guardianship when 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:51.960 you did that. 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:57.639 Look, I don't know. I'd never thought of that. I 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:58.560 never thought of that. 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.119 This is very interesting to me personally. I was a 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.040 ward of the state from the time I was born 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.040 until I was eighteen years old, so I know how 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.480 the system works. I'm also about the same age as Evelyn. 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.840 Evelyn has confirmed that she was a ward of the 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.720 State of Victoria. This means that the government and the 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:26.200 responsible Minister was her legal guardian. I did not understand 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.840 how Michael Reid could not know that he was no 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.359 longer Evelyn's legal guardian, especially if he was still in 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:37.280 contact with her, as he claims. Another thing that stands 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.800 out in our conversation. Never once does Michael express sympathy 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.520 for Evelyn or for his son Chris, despite the litany 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.000 of traumatic experiences they had to endure as very young children. 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.720 Can I ask you were you suspicious about the manner 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:55.520 of the loneer's death. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:21:02.600 You know, Lana had thrown this birthday party for Chris 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:08.200 and I on the Sunday, which was eleventh, twelve, thirteenth, 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:12.240 on the tenth. She died on the Wednesday, which was 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.760 at thirteen, and they're all going home, and one of 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.679 my friends turned around and said, now you're going to 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.720 get the biggest birthday present Mike. And Ilona looked at 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.560 me and she said, no, you're not, No, you're not, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.240 and she didn't she was. I look back on that 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.520 moment and I said, well, it's very unusual for a 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.960 Loana because she never knocked me back. Without being too smart, 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:43.000 she never knocked me back anyway. We went to bed 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.359 and in the morning she said it's didn't teel too good, 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.600 and she was losing blood from a vagina, she told me, 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.080 And I said, well, you better go to the doctor 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.200 and get yourself checked out. She said I will now. 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.720 When I kissed her goodbye in the morning of the 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.040 day she died, and she had asked me to meet 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.360 her for lunch, her lips were very cold, and I said, 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:07.480 that's a kiss of death. That is terrible, Lona, and 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:09.919 she was cold. She was cold, and I go over 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.600 a hugshaid, I said, you're right, you're right to go 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.959 to work. She said, yes, anyway, I was tied up 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.120 with a customer and never made lunch and the rest 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:19.760 is history. 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.680 Just to recap, we already know that Elona visited her 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.080 doctor a week before her death on July seventh, nineteen 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:32.440 seventy seven, complaining of a sore throat. Now Michael tells 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:36.240 us that two days before she died, Ilona was experiencing 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.919 vaginal bleeding and on the morning she died, her lips 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:41.560 were stone cold. 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:46.200 Now I've never known that. They said there was nothing 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.560 wrong with her heart, but she had the autopsy comments 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.439 that you sent me on that is blown me away 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:58.040 because she had heart pills to take. She had heart 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.760 pills to take because when she was young she had 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.960 scarlet fever and it left a mark on her heart, 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.480 I believe, and this is what I was told by 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:15.280 Ilona and obviously, but when she died, you know, I 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.160 just said, well, everybody said, well, how was her heart? 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:20.920 I said, well, she I know she had a weak heart, 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:28.040 but look, I'd never ever thought about the possibility that 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:30.400 something untoward had happened to her. Never. 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.280 Just to reiterate, we have the autopsy report confirming the opposite, 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:37.000 that her heart was fine. 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:41.639 In fact, my wife sitting here now, worked right just 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.920 outside where she died, just outside where when she was there, 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:46.879 when the car was when she died at the will 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:50.960 and the ambulance was there. My wife, now Olivia was 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.200 actually there, and so was a friend of mine. He 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:58.920 was a Belgian friend. He worked with Olivia then and 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.320 he said, I know that car, and he rushed up 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:05.320 and and a loaded had passed. You know, But I mean, 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:07.919 you know now you've been talking about Buddy poison and 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:11.080 talking about this with woters. I mean, I mean the 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:13.679 mind in fact, Libby's. We were lying in bed the 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.320 first time we'd spoken to one of you guys about this, 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:19.840 this business with him, and she said, he said, well, 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:22.440 could he have got to her? I said, I doubt it. 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:26.119 I doubt it. Live you know, well I do you 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:28.200 know now I see and listen to all what's going 0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:30.359 going on, And you just don't know, do you. I mean, 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:31.080 I just don't know. 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:33.840 Were you were aware that that Willy was in the 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.640 country in the months before the Loona passed away? 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:41.240 Oh No, not at that time, No, No, No, I wasn't. No, 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.639 I just can't believe it. No, I wasn't. It was 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:49.200 only when Evelyn had told us that she had finally 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:50.639