Speaker 1: This is the case of Marion Barter, a mother, teacher
Speaker 1: friend missing for twenty six years.
Speaker 2: You know, no sign that she was going to vanish.
Speaker 3: That's for sure.
Speaker 1: The bizarre circumstances surrounding her disappearance.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if it was intentional or there's something
Speaker 4: more foul afoot.
Speaker 2: If you could imagine a teacher coming straight from say
Speaker 2: little house on the prairie to the eighties, that was
Speaker 2: Marion Barter. What I say, whether you find Marian Barter
Speaker 2: dead or alive, I honestly believe somebody has that key
Speaker 2: piece of information.
Speaker 1: And the relentless quest of a daughter to find her mum.
Speaker 2: Something had happened, Something has happened to make her leave.
Speaker 4: I am one hundred percent sure, one hundred percent sure
Speaker 4: that somebody knows something.
Speaker 1: The lady vanishes, Episode fifty five. I'm Alison Sandy.
Speaker 5: And I'm Brian Seymour.
Speaker 1: Our deep dive on Rick Blum continues. It's clear, as
Speaker 1: pointed out by many experts, including criminal analyst Laura Richards,
Speaker 1: that understanding this man, along with interrogating his pattern of
Speaker 1: behavior and what he's capable of, is integral to the
Speaker 1: investigation into what happened to Marian Barter. One man we
Speaker 1: have heard about but never spoken with, is Michael Reid,
Speaker 1: Evelyn's stepfather. Michael was married to Evelyn's mother alone, whom
Speaker 1: he met after she separated from Willy Wooters or Rick Blum,
Speaker 1: who is Evelyn's biological father. Michael says he and Alona
Speaker 1: also had a child together, Christopher. However, on his birth certificate,
Speaker 1: his father is listed as Willie Wooters. When Alona died
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven, the impact on all their lives
Speaker 1: was immense. As discussed in previous episodes, there are many
Speaker 1: issues with the way her death was handled and whether
Speaker 1: there could be much more to it than was previously acknowledged.
Speaker 1: Brian contact of Michael read and after initially rejecting his
Speaker 1: request for an interview, I sent him the list of
Speaker 1: questions and he changed his mind. Hello, Hi, Michael, It's
Speaker 1: Alison Sandy. How are you. At the start of the interview,
Speaker 1: he announced it was also being recorded. At his end,
Speaker 1: are you there.
Speaker 2: We're recording?
Speaker 4: Can you hear me, Michael?
Speaker 2: I can?
Speaker 4: Oh? Good. Hey. First of all, thank you for talking
Speaker 4: to his Michael. I've just got some questions I think
Speaker 4: you've seen them in a print form, So I'll just
Speaker 4: ask away, can you tell us about your relationship with
Speaker 4: Willie Wooters also known as Frederick de Heeadvery and also
Speaker 4: known as Rick Bloom.
Speaker 2: I had no relationship with him. The only time I
Speaker 2: met him was at a ferry terminal when Ilona and
Speaker 2: I were going back to England and he arrived, and
Speaker 2: I never spoke with him. He took Elona out to
Speaker 2: the car and they spoke, and Eloner came back to
Speaker 2: me and we bordered the vessel and went to England.
Speaker 2: And that's all I can tell you of my personal
Speaker 2: dealings with him.
Speaker 4: And when was that? Do you remember when that fairy
Speaker 4: trip was?
Speaker 2: It would have been seventy's, either seventy or seventy one.
Speaker 4: And what did a loaner tell you about? Well, Willie
Speaker 4: Wooters as he was then.
Speaker 2: She never told me a great deal. They argued arguments,
Speaker 2: but the only thing became raised one time and hit
Speaker 2: him on the head with a bottle. And Ilona wasn't
Speaker 2: the type of person who becoming raised. She was a
Speaker 2: very sweet and gentle person. I knew nothing of his
Speaker 2: prior history, and Ilona never mentioned anything to me of
Speaker 2: his prior history where we were together.
Speaker 4: And do you know anything about what you told me
Speaker 4: a bit about the relationship between a loner and Willie.
Speaker 4: Did he mention anything else, such as any other incidents
Speaker 4: of violence or infidelity? No.
Speaker 2: Another thing she told me was that before she was
Speaker 2: due to get married, one of the wives, or the
Speaker 2: previous wife, knocked on her door and said, you're getting
Speaker 2: yourself into big trouble here. Don't do it. He's not
Speaker 2: a nice man.
Speaker 4: And would you remember the name if I told you?
Speaker 4: Was it Nicole?
Speaker 2: It was the previous wife, his previous I think he
Speaker 2: was married three times, so it would have been It
Speaker 2: was a Belgium lady, I think. And I can't remember
Speaker 2: the name.
Speaker 4: That there were actually two wives prior to a Look,
Speaker 4: it's a.
Speaker 2: Long time ago, man, I just can't. I can't recall.
Speaker 4: Okay, And did you know that that Willy was a
Speaker 4: convicted convent before he met Elona?
Speaker 2: Yes, I can't recall if I was with her, but
Speaker 2: I did find an article in a French paper which
Speaker 2: stated that he was found with seventeen different passports under
Speaker 2: seventeen different aliases. The only other thing that I recall
Speaker 2: about also is Ilona told me that he had hired
Speaker 2: a car in Switzerland I think, and sold it in Italy.
Speaker 2: It's a Porsche.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: And then she said to me he was a gambler.
Speaker 2: She said, he used to go out gambling and sometimes
Speaker 2: she'll get nice rings at the next minute that disappear.
Speaker 4: To that point, did will he ever ask you for
Speaker 4: money or try to scam you?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Never never had any contact with him at all. Oh
Speaker 2: there was there was, Yes, I think I can honestly say.
Speaker 2: There was an incident which I've just record. We had
Speaker 2: paperwork come through. It was all in French and it
Speaker 2: advised I think it was to either every nor Ilono.
Speaker 2: I can't remember, but somebody had died in Belgium supposedly
Speaker 2: and they if they paid all the taxes, they would
Speaker 2: get all the properties or something like that. I always
Speaker 2: wish I'd have kept that paperwork. So there was a
Speaker 2: document that came from overseas, obviously from him trying to
Speaker 2: scam and I took it to a friend of mine
Speaker 2: and he said, a Belgian friend of mine, and he
Speaker 2: read it and I said, he said to me, forget
Speaker 2: all about it.
Speaker 4: So it clearly was some kind of attempt to scam
Speaker 4: you think, oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for me, definitely a scam.
Speaker 4: And what would the scam have been, do you know?
Speaker 2: Well, the scam would have been that if all the
Speaker 2: back taxes had been paid, which is what they were
Speaker 2: after the money for the backpack tax taxes, all the
Speaker 2: properties of this person would then be assigned to either
Speaker 2: a loaner or everything a loaner had died then, So
Speaker 2: it was definitely to everylin. It was definitely to everything
Speaker 2: that was very that was she was very young then.
Speaker 2: I can't remember the age, but it was very suspicious.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. Now this has all come out,
Speaker 2: I wish I had kept the documents or the doctrines
Speaker 2: I had.
Speaker 4: Okay, Michael, just on that so dis uncle, it appears
Speaker 4: that this was a document asking you or someone on
Speaker 4: Evalen's behalf to pay money to then access the rights
Speaker 4: to the property. Yeah, and the scam element might have
Speaker 4: been that you would pay the money and not get
Speaker 4: the rights to the property.
Speaker 2: Well, well, that's exactly right.
Speaker 5: Michael appears to be referring to Evelyn's four million franc
Speaker 5: debt in relation to the death of Freddie David Rick
Speaker 5: Bloom's brother. We are still investigating this, but we believe
Speaker 5: the debt was real. However, it is uncertain whether it
Speaker 5: was racked up by the real Freddie David or by
Speaker 5: Rick Bloom, who used that name as one of his aliases.
Speaker 5: We move on to questions about Ilona's inheritance after her
Speaker 5: mother died.
Speaker 2: Well, this is a very interesting situation. When Loona's mother died,
Speaker 2: there was a percentage of the property that was left
Speaker 2: to Ilona, but because Ilona had passed on, it was
Speaker 2: to go equally divided to both the two siblings. Now,
Speaker 2: I had no information or dealings with that money.
Speaker 5: You will recall that Evelyn visited the office of the
Speaker 5: notary who drew up a private agreement relating to her
Speaker 5: grandmother's estate allegedly signed by Willie wooters a Ka, Rick Blum,
Speaker 5: Joseph Birou, and Michael Reid, which sounds a lot like
Speaker 5: the deal Read is now describing, except he says he
Speaker 5: was not a.
Speaker 4: Part of it.
Speaker 2: That money was directed to both the children. I never
Speaker 2: knew how much they got and I was told nothing.
Speaker 2: Now going further, Joseph Kinsell died in Hungary and also
Speaker 2: left money to both the children that I know nothing
Speaker 2: of either. I know nothing of how it was sorted,
Speaker 2: on how they were paid. And I'd also like to
Speaker 2: answer the question on behalf of my dear wife that
Speaker 2: passed away, God bless a soul. Edward Bill was her boss.
Speaker 2: She was a hairdresser. He called me up and he said,
Speaker 2: come in, we might be able to get some workers'
Speaker 2: compensation here for you or the children. I have the
Speaker 2: forms here, come and fill them in. I went into
Speaker 2: Southierra where Ilona worked, filled out the paperwork, and there
Speaker 2: was compensation awarded to both the children, of which I
Speaker 2: had no control over whatsoever. It was organized by the
Speaker 2: insurance company that paid out now was her cousin, and
Speaker 2: informed Evelyn at the age of sixteen or seventeen, or
Speaker 2: it might have been younger, that compensation money had been
Speaker 2: paid and that your father, who's me, knows all about it.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: I was never questioned by Evelyn. She followed up and
Speaker 2: went into to the city and she procured her part
Speaker 2: of the money when it wasn't I think they weren't
Speaker 2: allowed it till they were eighteen, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: But anyway, and she told Chris of this, and he
Speaker 2: also did the same. I know nothing about when they
Speaker 2: did it. I know that Evelyn bought a car with
Speaker 2: her money. My wife with me now was with me
Speaker 2: when she'd bought the car. I know Chris had brought
Speaker 2: a motorbike with his money.
Speaker 5: Here Michael makes a critical and personal care arter assessment
Speaker 5: of his children, which we won't share with you. Suffice
Speaker 5: to say he claims they got all the money and
Speaker 5: he got nothing.
Speaker 2: The property in Brussels where I lived with Ilona was
Speaker 2: a joint property between her mother and Joseph Birerou, and
Speaker 2: they had another property that they were both property owners
Speaker 2: of that Now, when Ilana's mother died, I believe that
Speaker 2: they sold the one and put it all into the other,
Speaker 2: because I was helping at the time him do the
Speaker 2: central heating and working in the property before we left
Speaker 2: for Australia.
Speaker 4: And so did you strike any agreement with Joseph Birou
Speaker 4: and Willie Wooters about that property?
Speaker 2: There was no agreement discussed, There was no agreement signed.
Speaker 2: And what he's whoever said that it was agreement that
Speaker 2: I could have Evelyn I procure I. Ilona's death left
Speaker 2: me with Evelyn and Chris, and at the time Chris's
Speaker 2: name was Woters. Because he was born in Brussels before
Speaker 2: the divorce came through and before the name change came through,
Speaker 2: if you really want to get into the degritty of it.
Speaker 2: And it took me hundreds of dollars with a no
Speaker 2: tear in Belgium to get Chris's name into read because
Speaker 2: he was my son.
Speaker 5: Just to avoid confusion, this is actually wrong. Chris was
Speaker 5: born in Tournay, not Brussels. Back to the interview, did.
Speaker 4: You also change Evelyn's name at that time?
Speaker 2: Evelyn was everly woters never changed her name. We came
Speaker 2: to Australia and everything was in the name of Reed,
Speaker 2: so she's always been known in Australia as Reed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. She was she known
Speaker 4: as Reed because you basically told her her name was
Speaker 4: Zebelin Reed.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 6: Can I just interrupt here just to check with that
Speaker 6: private agreement because my understanding, and this is why it
Speaker 6: seems seems to be the case. My understanding was that
Speaker 6: they were underage at that time, so that's why there
Speaker 6: had to be a private agreement between yourself, Rick Blum,
Speaker 6: being Evelyn's father, and Joseph Bireau, and that was the
Speaker 6: evidence that we saw in Belgium that there was a
Speaker 6: private agreement there, and that was when Rick Blum told
Speaker 6: Evelyn subsequently, although he didn't mention that he was part
Speaker 6: of it, that the deal was that Bureau kept the
Speaker 6: property and you kept Evelin.
Speaker 2: Well, someone saidly lies here because I was totally unaware
Speaker 2: of any agreement as such.
Speaker 1: But you would have had to have acted on their behalf,
Speaker 1: given that they were underage, like they couldn't have signed
Speaker 1: for that, so somebody had to. I would have thought
Speaker 1: you and blam, I suppose if he was going by,
Speaker 1: you know, being the father.
Speaker 2: As far as I'm concerned, there was no interaction in
Speaker 2: any of this with Bloom. As far as I'm concerned that,
Speaker 2: as far as I know or to my knowledge, there
Speaker 2: was no agreement whatsoever about me keeping Evelyn. That is
Speaker 2: a load of codswallop. He also lied. He also lied,
Speaker 2: he didn't even know. He said he's seen her once,
Speaker 2: And that was a total lie, because I know that
Speaker 2: Ilona had behind my back or taken Evelyn to see voters. Now,
Speaker 2: we weren't married then, we were just very in the
Speaker 2: very early stages of a concubine of living together.
Speaker 1: Did you just deal with bureau then, and you're saying
Speaker 1: this private agreement, which we did see evidence of.
Speaker 2: There was no agreement. I've never seen an agreement. I
Speaker 2: was never part of agreement. Who's clay, where's this agreement
Speaker 2: supposed to have originated?
Speaker 1: Well, if there was any agreement for the kids to
Speaker 1: get anything, it would have to have been signed off
Speaker 1: by an adult, not by them. No, that's the confusion.
Speaker 2: If there's an amount of money awarded for inheritance, the inheritance.
Speaker 2: I believe that Ergie met me Elizabeth in English, but Jie,
Speaker 2: she loved those children and she had daughter daughter. Now
Speaker 2: she knew she was dying, she had cancer. And Ilona
Speaker 2: went back in the October for three months and came
Speaker 2: back what was that seventy six, and came back in
Speaker 2: seventy seven. We moved into the house in February of
Speaker 2: seventy seven. She died of a heart attack on the
Speaker 2: thirteenth of July, six months later. Five months later, and
Speaker 2: as far as I was concerned that the children in
Speaker 2: my care and I was the responsible parent and left
Speaker 2: to bring them up. Attila, her brother actually came out
Speaker 2: to see me and the children. God bless his little
Speaker 2: socks and unfortunately two years later, at twenty one, he
Speaker 2: walked into his father's property Claps and died of a
Speaker 2: brain hemorrhage. She was in the German Air Force or Army,
Speaker 2: and he died of a bay brain hemorrhage. Now you know,
Speaker 2: the whole family was a travesty. Ilona died that she did,
Speaker 2: Her mother died three months later in September, and then
Speaker 2: Attila died. What made me laugh last night was Livy
Speaker 2: was reading out some information on this Willie Waters with
Speaker 2: the names and one of his synonyms was Attila, Attila somebody,
Speaker 2: and we just looked at each other. We just couldn't
Speaker 2: believe what this man's up to. But getting back to
Speaker 2: my situation with these children were wonderful to me because
Speaker 2: she was Catholic alone and we had them in a
Speaker 2: Catholic school and they had organized for Chris to go
Speaker 2: to one of the top schools in Geelong when he
Speaker 2: was five, just five, and the nuns organized for Evelyn
Speaker 2: to go to a convent in South Melbourne. And I
Speaker 2: turned around and said, look, these children have just lost
Speaker 2: their mother, they're not going to lose a man, a
Speaker 2: father figure. And well, from there it went on and look,
Speaker 2: it just it was a it was a travel. The
Speaker 2: whole the whole situation for the family was a travesty, and.
Speaker 4: So both children ended up going into what good homes.
Speaker 2: I got to the situation. I had friends saying to me,
Speaker 2: you can't look after the children, have to do something
Speaker 2: with them, and I said, no way, and the nun said, well,
Speaker 2: look we've got a Catholic family welfare home in black
Speaker 2: Rock where an older couple look after four or five children.
Speaker 2: And I finally agreed much too, that's my own feelings.
Speaker 2: I put them in there and I wanted to see.
Speaker 2: I said, I'll come to see every weekend. Well, they
Speaker 2: decided that I could assume every weekend because they wanted
Speaker 2: me to have a life. So anyway, I saw them
Speaker 2: on the regular basis and helped financially pay for their upkeep.
Speaker 2: But it was a tough time for all.
Speaker 4: So was there any time that you were not the
Speaker 4: legal guardian for Chris and Evelyn when they were children,
Speaker 4: were either of them wards of the state.
Speaker 2: I was a legal guardian all the time. There was
Speaker 2: never any judgment made by any court. As far as
Speaker 2: everybody was concerned, I was their father.
Speaker 4: No, it wouldn't need to be a judgment. But you know, people,
Speaker 4: when you say you handed the children over to a
Speaker 4: group home, did you also relinquish guardians legal guardianship when
Speaker 4: you did that.
Speaker 2: Look, I don't know. I'd never thought of that. I
Speaker 2: never thought of that.
Speaker 5: This is very interesting to me personally. I was a
Speaker 5: ward of the state from the time I was born
Speaker 5: until I was eighteen years old, so I know how
Speaker 5: the system works. I'm also about the same age as Evelyn.
Speaker 5: Evelyn has confirmed that she was a ward of the
Speaker 5: State of Victoria. This means that the government and the
Speaker 5: responsible Minister was her legal guardian. I did not understand
Speaker 5: how Michael Reid could not know that he was no
Speaker 5: longer Evelyn's legal guardian, especially if he was still in
Speaker 5: contact with her, as he claims. Another thing that stands
Speaker 5: out in our conversation. Never once does Michael express sympathy
Speaker 5: for Evelyn or for his son Chris, despite the litany
Speaker 5: of traumatic experiences they had to endure as very young children.
Speaker 4: Can I ask you were you suspicious about the manner
Speaker 4: of the loneer's death.
Speaker 2: You know, Lana had thrown this birthday party for Chris
Speaker 2: and I on the Sunday, which was eleventh, twelve, thirteenth,
Speaker 2: on the tenth. She died on the Wednesday, which was
Speaker 2: at thirteen, and they're all going home, and one of
Speaker 2: my friends turned around and said, now you're going to
Speaker 2: get the biggest birthday present Mike. And Ilona looked at
Speaker 2: me and she said, no, you're not, No, you're not,
Speaker 2: and she didn't she was. I look back on that
Speaker 2: moment and I said, well, it's very unusual for a
Speaker 2: Loana because she never knocked me back. Without being too smart,
Speaker 2: she never knocked me back anyway. We went to bed
Speaker 2: and in the morning she said it's didn't teel too good,
Speaker 2: and she was losing blood from a vagina, she told me,
Speaker 2: And I said, well, you better go to the doctor
Speaker 2: and get yourself checked out. She said I will now.
Speaker 2: When I kissed her goodbye in the morning of the
Speaker 2: day she died, and she had asked me to meet
Speaker 2: her for lunch, her lips were very cold, and I said,
Speaker 2: that's a kiss of death. That is terrible, Lona, and
Speaker 2: she was cold. She was cold, and I go over
Speaker 2: a hugshaid, I said, you're right, you're right to go
Speaker 2: to work. She said, yes, anyway, I was tied up
Speaker 2: with a customer and never made lunch and the rest
Speaker 2: is history.
Speaker 5: Just to recap, we already know that Elona visited her
Speaker 5: doctor a week before her death on July seventh, nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy seven, complaining of a sore throat. Now Michael tells
Speaker 5: us that two days before she died, Ilona was experiencing
Speaker 5: vaginal bleeding and on the morning she died, her lips
Speaker 5: were stone cold.
Speaker 2: Now I've never known that. They said there was nothing
Speaker 2: wrong with her heart, but she had the autopsy comments
Speaker 2: that you sent me on that is blown me away
Speaker 2: because she had heart pills to take. She had heart
Speaker 2: pills to take because when she was young she had
Speaker 2: scarlet fever and it left a mark on her heart,
Speaker 2: I believe, and this is what I was told by
Speaker 2: Ilona and obviously, but when she died, you know, I
Speaker 2: just said, well, everybody said, well, how was her heart?
Speaker 2: I said, well, she I know she had a weak heart,
Speaker 2: but look, I'd never ever thought about the possibility that
Speaker 2: something untoward had happened to her. Never.
Speaker 5: Just to reiterate, we have the autopsy report confirming the opposite,
Speaker 5: that her heart was fine.
Speaker 2: In fact, my wife sitting here now, worked right just
Speaker 2: outside where she died, just outside where when she was there,
Speaker 2: when the car was when she died at the will
Speaker 2: and the ambulance was there. My wife, now Olivia was
Speaker 2: actually there, and so was a friend of mine. He
Speaker 2: was a Belgian friend. He worked with Olivia then and
Speaker 2: he said, I know that car, and he rushed up
Speaker 2: and and a loaded had passed. You know, But I mean,
Speaker 2: you know now you've been talking about Buddy poison and
Speaker 2: talking about this with woters. I mean, I mean the
Speaker 2: mind in fact, Libby's. We were lying in bed the
Speaker 2: first time we'd spoken to one of you guys about this,
Speaker 2: this business with him, and she said, he said, well,
Speaker 2: could he have got to her? I said, I doubt it.
Speaker 2: I doubt it. Live you know, well I do you
Speaker 2: know now I see and listen to all what's going
Speaker 2: going on, And you just don't know, do you. I mean,
Speaker 2: I just don't know.
Speaker 4: Were you were aware that that Willy was in the
Speaker 4: country in the months before the Loona passed away?
Speaker 2: Oh No, not at that time, No, No, No, I wasn't. No,
Speaker 2: I just can't believe it. No, I wasn't. It was
Speaker 2: only when Evelyn had told us that she had finally
Speaker 2: contacted her birth father.
Speaker 4: Are you familiar with a claim that everyone makes that
Speaker 4: Willie or Rick, once she reconnected with him, gifted her
Speaker 4: a bottle of champagne. The top was tampered with, and
Speaker 4: he had already spoken about poisons, and she was worried
Speaker 4: that he had tampered with the champagne in an attempt
Speaker 4: to poison him.
Speaker 2: Never, never, never discussed, never heard of that until now.
Speaker 4: What do you think was responsible for Alona's death?
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what was responsible her mother. She died
Speaker 2: of a broken heart. Actually, she said something to me
Speaker 2: which I've said to Livy, which really broke my heart.
Speaker 2: But when I think about it, she was so right.
Speaker 2: She said, I can always find another husband, Mike, but
Speaker 2: I can never find another mother, not like my mother.
Speaker 2: And she adored her mother. And all the time we
Speaker 2: were in Belgium, we were around there all week, every week,
Speaker 2: all the time, and she looked after the grandchildren and
Speaker 2: she was a lovely lady. She was a lovely lady,
Speaker 2: and the daughter adored her. I honestly believe that she
Speaker 2: died of a broken heart. And I've told him. Is
Speaker 2: this ANFD turn around now and so there was nothing
Speaker 2: wrong with her. Well that's what she died of, a
Speaker 2: broken heart.
Speaker 4: Okay, And can I ask you why wasn't a proper
Speaker 4: burial site organized for a loner?
Speaker 2: Well, you have really hit a very sore point. Me
Speaker 2: a copper, MEA copper, me a copper. I basically never
Speaker 2: wanted to go back there. I didn't accept that she
Speaker 2: had gone. And that's basically it. I can say no more.
Speaker 4: How surprised are you that Rick Blue and Willie Wooters
Speaker 4: is now a person of interest in the disappearance of
Speaker 4: another woman, maryon Barter?
Speaker 2: Well, so totally blown away, totally blown away.
Speaker 4: I believe Crystals that you were working on a cruise
Speaker 4: ship when you met Aloner and that's how he was conceived.
Speaker 4: Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yes, she came on a cruise I was matre d
Speaker 2: and she chased me. Unfortunately she did. She had guys
Speaker 2: coming up to me and saying, Elona wants to see
Speaker 2: you here and wants to see you there. Well, we
Speaker 2: at that particular time, we weren't allowed to mix with passengers.
Speaker 2: But the story goes on, of course that we finally
Speaker 2: did and we finally got together and she didn't actually
Speaker 2: join the ship in Sydney when we sailed for home
Speaker 2: to England because the ship was full. She flew to
Speaker 2: Fiji and joined the ship in Fiji, and then it
Speaker 2: was on for young and old and the rest is history.
Speaker 5: Michael Reid admits he was very blunt when he told
Speaker 5: Evelyn he wasn't her father.
Speaker 2: I remember it very clearly. We'd had a big row,
Speaker 2: but she had been I don't know, she was just
Speaker 2: you know, she was off the rows and I'd caught
Speaker 2: her at home one time, which was very rare, and
Speaker 2: Ida said to her, Look, I never wanted to tell
Speaker 2: you this, but I'm just going to tell you that
Speaker 2: the life you've given me and what you've put me through,
Speaker 2: and I'm not even your fucking father. That's exactly what
Speaker 2: I said to her.
Speaker 1: How old was she then?
Speaker 2: I would say she was a good fifteen sixteen.
Speaker 5: This corroborates what Evelyn told us as heard in the
Speaker 5: previous episode, but she added that much more was said
Speaker 5: to her, which was so bad she couldn't repeat it.
Speaker 1: Okay, last question from me, did you know Alona was
Speaker 1: assaulted by Joseph Biro.
Speaker 2: No Ilona was not assaulted by Joseph Biro. Ilona was
Speaker 2: assaulted by Joseph Kinsell, her father, when she was eleven
Speaker 2: years old?
Speaker 1: Is that why her mother wasn't with him.
Speaker 6: Yes, so it wasn't Biro, it wasn't.
Speaker 2: Birea, it was kin Cell. It was her real father.
Speaker 5: This is new. Michael is saying that Ilona's biological father,
Speaker 5: Joseph Kinsel, sexually abused her, not her stepfather Joseph Birou.
Speaker 5: Was there any incidence of Bureau assaulting or abusing Elona
Speaker 5: that you're aware of?
Speaker 2: Ilona said to me when she came back from nursing
Speaker 2: her mother. She said, he has been a wonderful husband.
Speaker 2: He has been a wonderful father to me. There's no
Speaker 2: way if he makes any offer of payment, am I
Speaker 2: going to accept it?
Speaker 5: Again? This seems odd, especially in relation to her objecting
Speaker 5: to her share of the inheritance. We don't know the
Speaker 5: true nature of her relationship with Biau, but her mother
Speaker 5: did leave her part of her estate, which was to
Speaker 5: be shared between Evelyn and Christopher when she died. She
Speaker 5: certainly had not ren denounced her inheritance.
Speaker 1: Didn't he marry her best friend?
Speaker 5: When?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I believe he married she was living in Switzerland,
Speaker 2: and I'm told I was absolutely golfs back when I
Speaker 2: heard that, but I believe he did, and I never
Speaker 2: found that out until Ilona died.
Speaker 5: To clarify, Michael claims that Ilona thought Joseph Biro was
Speaker 5: a wonderful man and that even if he offered her
Speaker 5: any payment after her mother's death, she would not accept it,
Speaker 5: not even to leave for her own children. One thing
Speaker 5: everyone agrees on is that after Joseph Bureau's wife died,
Speaker 5: he married his stepdaughter's best friend and they sold the
Speaker 5: family home and moved to the country.
Speaker 1: Do you know what ever happened to Bireau or Joseph Kinsel,
Speaker 1: any of the Josephs.
Speaker 2: Yes, Joseph Kinsell returned. He lived in Germany and a
Speaker 2: little farm where we visited him, and he returned to
Speaker 2: live and eventually died in Budapest. I don't know if
Speaker 2: Joseph Biro is still alive or not, but he remarried,
Speaker 2: as you say, a friend of Ilona's. And that's all
Speaker 2: I can say. All I can say to you is
Speaker 2: that the loss of Ilona totally devastated my life and
Speaker 2: my two children's lives, and whatever happened after that was
Speaker 2: an absolute travesty as far as I was concerned.
Speaker 5: There's a lot to unpack here. First off, the scam
Speaker 5: Michael Reid is referring to appears to be the so
Speaker 5: called inheritance of Freddie David. However, we know there was
Speaker 5: no financial gain from that, just a four million franc debt,
Speaker 5: which we understand, and Evelyn could just renounce like her father,
Speaker 5: Rick Blum did, unless there is another, as yet unknown
Speaker 5: aspect of this deal. There is a lot of bad
Speaker 5: blood between Reed and his children. It's not for us
Speaker 5: to go into it here. One interesting question that has
Speaker 5: arisen out of these discussions is the notion that not
Speaker 5: only is Evelyn Rick Blum's daughter, but could Chris Reid
Speaker 5: also be his biological son. Willie Wooters, as Rick was
Speaker 5: known then, was recorded as his father on Chris's birth certificate.
Speaker 5: He was born in the same birthplace, Tornay, something Michael
Speaker 5: does not appear to know. Elona did see Willie, and
Speaker 5: it's possible they were intimate in the nine months prior
Speaker 5: to Chris's birth. It's another intriguing set of coincidences. Of course,
Speaker 5: we cannot ask Ilona and Michael Reid is adamant, Chris
Speaker 5: is his son. As to Michael's theory that Ilona died
Speaker 5: of a broken heart, we're looking for a real world
Speaker 5: physical cause, and it seems that her physical condition in
Speaker 5: the days leading up to and including the day she
Speaker 5: died should have triggered immediate medical attention. It's also worth
Speaker 5: mentioning that Ilona's mother, Urzebet Elizabeth in English, died several
Speaker 5: months after Alona in September. This is heavy going and
Speaker 5: we know some of you have questioned, what, if anything,
Speaker 5: this has to do with the disappearance of Marion Barter.
Speaker 5: Long time listeners already know the answer. When we started out,
Speaker 5: we planned to file seven episodes, with the idea being
Speaker 5: we would chronicle our investigation in real time and keep
Speaker 5: going until we found Marian. This is where our investigation
Speaker 5: has led. Evelyn has already provided invaluable information relating to
Speaker 5: the key person of interest in this case. We hope
Speaker 5: and we expect, as has happened regularly over the past
Speaker 5: four years, that this line of inquiry will prompt someone
Speaker 5: to come forward, possibly a person with a vital piece
Speaker 5: of information that will ultimately help us to answer the
Speaker 5: question driving all of us. What happened to Marion Barter?
Speaker 5: Can I record this, Chris if you want to. To
Speaker 5: that end, we tracked down Michael's son and Evelyn's half brother.
Speaker 5: Chris read it is fascinating about your mum Alona. Now,
Speaker 5: she was supposedly on the way home from work from
Speaker 5: Edward Beale Headdressers, and for some reason she pulled over
Speaker 5: and died right there in the car. Now, there's a
Speaker 5: lot that happened after that that confuses me. But what
Speaker 5: did you make of what you were told? And what
Speaker 5: were you told about how your mum Alona died?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 7: I a told you how to strike will apparently, and
Speaker 7: that was it. So yeah, when then by the time
Speaker 7: I got to the cars, she was dead pretty much.
Speaker 4: And who told you that?
Speaker 3: My dad? Yeah?
Speaker 5: And as time were on, did you hear any more
Speaker 5: about about that?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 7: No, because two weeks after I went into a home.
Speaker 7: So my dad didn't cope at all, you know what
Speaker 7: to do and put me and myosist into a home.
Speaker 7: So my life pretty much turned a shit after that.
Speaker 7: Between you and Iry, use those words.
Speaker 5: No, I'm sorry to hear that, Chris. Just just so
Speaker 5: you know, I grew up in as a wad of
Speaker 5: the state. I grew up in government orphanages and foster
Speaker 5: homes and juvenile yeah, juvenile government homes when I was
Speaker 5: a teenager, so I have a pretty good idea of
Speaker 5: what that's like, you know.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well I was let's just say I
Speaker 7: was happy when auntie uncle which is what we had
Speaker 7: to call and left and a young Feena moved in
Speaker 7: after about three and a half. But then my dad
Speaker 7: had met a Jewish lady and got you know, was
Speaker 7: about to be remarried. So yeah, I say, you know,
Speaker 7: for me, it was part of my world that kind
Speaker 7: of I think saw a very little memory. I remember
Speaker 7: everything kind of before going coming and then coming out,
Speaker 7: but there's kind of a lot of parts of my
Speaker 7: mind I think blocked out probably you know this trauma,
Speaker 7: what you know, what went on, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So have very little memory.
Speaker 7: But I think I remember my my mother was that
Speaker 7: my dad said, you know, all of a sudden, she's
Speaker 7: actually remember my dad saying anything to me about my mother.
Speaker 3: To tell the truth, because whenever I went to the funeral,
Speaker 3: why didn't you go?
Speaker 7: I had no idea. I don't even I don't remember
Speaker 7: my dad even have any friend or for my mum. Actually,
Speaker 7: in fact, my dad didn't even give my mum a
Speaker 7: proper burial, didn't even give her a headstone later where
Speaker 7: she was married and Danny Nolm met by Danny noon
Speaker 7: Like as an adult, I kind of wanted to ade
Speaker 7: some questions and it's like I went in and I
Speaker 7: coudn't believe it was just a mark grave. My mother
Speaker 7: is buried there and she's got no headstaying. My dad,
Speaker 7: what the heck it's going on? He said, oh, you know,
Speaker 7: I'll go and put one on, and he never did so,
Speaker 7: I don't know, mate.
Speaker 3: It was just very odd.
Speaker 5: It's no way to remember such a young, vivacious woman.
Speaker 5: And she was very beautiful your mum. I've seen some
Speaker 5: photos of her and what all accounts an absolutely lovely
Speaker 5: woman looked like Alder Hippon. Actually, funnily enough, she did
Speaker 5: have a bit of that about it, didn't she.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was all the hilarious. But it was always
Speaker 7: a fascinating point for me because I apparently thought the story.
Speaker 7: I was told that she had scarlet fever as young
Speaker 7: girl and Neil killed her. My dad said it left
Speaker 7: ever the weak heart, so I've got an idea of
Speaker 7: it that because I've not done much research into scarlet fever,
Speaker 7: I know that scarlet fever was a disease that was
Speaker 7: around and still around, very not as much as it was,
Speaker 7: but apparently that was that. But you know the thing
Speaker 7: for me was that they fled kind of Belgium. You know,
Speaker 7: I came back here to row with him under it
Speaker 7: under his name. Would you believe it? Belgium wouldn't recognize
Speaker 7: the divorce between my mum and Willie Waters. And so
Speaker 7: then I had a passport that was put in his
Speaker 7: name to be able to get me a passport to
Speaker 7: Hungary to get me out of Europe and into Australia.
Speaker 7: And then years later, so I grew up so many
Speaker 7: years believe in that I actually I was this guy's son,
Speaker 7: and in fact I wasn't. And it wasn't until I
Speaker 7: confronted my own father and said, well, I've got all
Speaker 7: the evidence here. I've got a Burthships kit in my
Speaker 7: name of Waters, you know, because my sister had all
Speaker 7: this stuff and she came to me with it and
Speaker 7: I said, well why haven't you sorted it out? And
Speaker 7: it was that prompting that he actually went back to
Speaker 7: Belgium and actually sorted it out. And you know, I
Speaker 7: am Michael Reid's son, but it took a lot of
Speaker 7: identity crisis for me, as you can imagine being told
Speaker 7: on one person and then having all this evidence saying
Speaker 7: that I'm not. So you know, there was a story
Speaker 7: back then, I guess with him being around and they
Speaker 7: fled from I think, you know, Europe to come to
Speaker 7: Melbourne and to get away from this William Motors guy.
Speaker 3: But who knows, you know, like.
Speaker 7: It's just I wonder around the timing of you know,
Speaker 7: I don't know what research you've done, but if my
Speaker 7: mother died in seventy seven, where was he at the time?
Speaker 7: Are there any movements of his travel? Was he in
Speaker 7: the country at the time. Had he been in the
Speaker 7: country at the time.
Speaker 5: Well, he had been in the country at the time.
Speaker 5: He first came I think in nineteen sixty nine, following
Speaker 5: your mother. He came separately from her and then he
Speaker 5: returned to Europe. He used various names during that period,
Speaker 5: including Bernard du Pont and Freddie David and Willie Wooters.
Speaker 5: So he ended up being jailed. I think it was
Speaker 5: in France for four years, that's right, in.
Speaker 4: The seventies, and then he returned to Australia and he
Speaker 4: was actually granted citizenship. He lied about and his admitted
Speaker 4: lying about having a criminal record, and he was given
Speaker 4: Australian citizenship in nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 3: Wow, So was he here in seventy seven around the
Speaker 3: time my mother died.
Speaker 5: Well, I need to check the records, but he certainly
Speaker 5: was here in seventy six, and then at some stage
Speaker 5: he moved back to Europe and lived in Belgium and
Speaker 5: then the UK in the very early eighties.
Speaker 3: And as you're probably.
Speaker 7: My grandmother, my mum's martin was really suspicious of him,
Speaker 7: in fact, so much so that she actually hired a
Speaker 7: prior private detective to kind of, you know, find out
Speaker 7: who this William Motors guy was, and found out that
Speaker 7: actually he was married with a couple of children. They
Speaker 7: went to my mother and told her and said this
Speaker 7: guy to scumback, you know, lying to you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can tell you that. In nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 5: Frederick David Deheedevry, that's Rick Bluem aka William Rogers, arrived
Speaker 5: in Sydney alone from the United Kingdom on March seventeen
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy seven, and he gave his Australian address
Speaker 5: as Towns Road in Vaclues. That's here in Sydney.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so any say seventy seven, So, to be honest
Speaker 7: with you, that's March and then my mum dies enjoy.
Speaker 5: Well, well hang on, I'm just about to tell you
Speaker 5: that on March twenty five, this is five days after
Speaker 5: he arrived in Sydney. We've got a record showing Frederic
Speaker 5: David de Heeavery left again for Belgium. And then on
Speaker 5: July thirteen, your mum was discovered in the car and
Speaker 5: her husband at the time, Michael read your dad, said
Speaker 5: she had not long returned from Belgium after visiting her
Speaker 5: dying mother. So I'm just reading from our timeline. After
Speaker 5: Alona Consel was found summed at the will of her car,
Speaker 5: her husband Michael Reid said she had not long returned
Speaker 5: from Belgium after visiting her dying mother.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, I remember we went back. I remember that.
Speaker 5: So it appears that both Willie and your mum were
Speaker 5: in Belgium at around the same time, not long before
Speaker 5: she passed away.
Speaker 7: Well, I remember going back to belgiumcause my grandmother got cancer.
Speaker 7: I really got a really quick jus like dead in space.
Speaker 7: It was three months, so very aggressive, very quick.
Speaker 5: How old are you when, Alona, when your mom passed away,
Speaker 5: Chris my.
Speaker 3: Mom, Yeah, I just turned five. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 5: It's such a hard thing for a little kid to
Speaker 5: deal with. Mate, I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Speaker 3: Oh mate.
Speaker 7: I think the toppest gig was, you know, I don't
Speaker 7: know your story. Everyone we've got one was the you know,
Speaker 7: it's basically two whears. You lost your mommy and her
Speaker 7: dad all of a sudden, Dad's gone to get put
Speaker 7: into her own So, you know, I think for anyone
Speaker 7: who's gone through that, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 7: people who have gone through I mean my sister everyone
Speaker 7: was a wad at the state for years as well,
Speaker 7: and she was in foster homes and that's old, that
Speaker 7: whole thing. Yeah, you know, obviously, as you know, there
Speaker 7: was that Royal commission into the whole lot of you know,
Speaker 7: foster homes and panned Or's box.
Speaker 4: Yeah I know it.
Speaker 7: Well yeah yeah, and I'll got approach with that as well. Yeah,
Speaker 7: but you know, I have no I had no kind
Speaker 7: of for me. I want to go on the journey
Speaker 7: of having to go through all that again. Then I
Speaker 7: thought about it, I thought, no, I'm not interested, but yeah.
Speaker 3: Only a boy mate.
Speaker 7: But you know, like I always say, now, you can't
Speaker 7: change your past, but you can change the future. And
Speaker 7: I wasted twenty years of my life dragging the ball
Speaker 7: and changed the past with me and trying to drag
Speaker 7: into the future and blameing around around me because of
Speaker 7: circumstances that I had no control of.
Speaker 5: Can I ask you just a couple of quick things
Speaker 5: while I got in your kiss, because you just mentioned
Speaker 5: briefly a couple of things. The first is that you
Speaker 5: had a passport issued in the name of Willie Wooters.
Speaker 5: It's correct, yeah, And effectively that meant, you know, he
Speaker 5: was your he could he could pretend or show that
Speaker 5: he was your legal father, your legal guardian.
Speaker 3: Well back then he was Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I guess my mother must have had something to do
Speaker 7: with that, you know, or I don't know.
Speaker 3: They had no idea how that all worked out.
Speaker 7: But you know, I had to go into Hungary and
Speaker 7: and basically say that I was his son and had
Speaker 7: the burst ticket, even though I was born in Bulgium intern.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, man, it was. It was not my
Speaker 3: real name and not my identity.
Speaker 5: And the purpose of that, you think was to get
Speaker 5: you safely out of Europe.
Speaker 4: Trader, I think.
Speaker 7: That, you know, my mom wanted to get away from it,
Speaker 7: but apparently said that she she was in love with him.
Speaker 7: You know, so you know, knew my dad and knew
Speaker 7: my mom, but she said that, you know, she was
Speaker 7: actually very really in.
Speaker 3: Love with my dad.
Speaker 5: You mean you mean Michael, she was actually in love
Speaker 5: with WILLI the whole time, you think.
Speaker 3: Said to me, she, I don't think she was ever
Speaker 3: really in love with Mike.
Speaker 7: She really loved you know, I really loved William at
Speaker 7: the time, but then kind of found out what he
Speaker 7: was about and then that. But she you know, you know,
Speaker 7: she said to me, she and almost doesn't believe that
Speaker 7: she was actually ever really loved with my dad. There
Speaker 7: was a story where where in that time, probably the timeline,
Speaker 7: where my mom came to.
Speaker 3: Sydney with William. Yeah, and they went on well they
Speaker 3: were in Sydney together.
Speaker 7: My mom put my sister Evely on a plane to
Speaker 7: go back to Belgium.
Speaker 1: Stopping here for a second. Remember how Blum would try
Speaker 1: to involve some of the key women in his life
Speaker 1: in his nefarious activities, i e. Monique and Evelyn. It's
Speaker 1: reasonable to believe he also tried to involve Aloner while
Speaker 1: Evelyn and I were in Belgium. The notary whose firm
Speaker 1: drew up this personal agreement apparently between Bloom, than Rooters,
Speaker 1: Biro and Michael Reid said alone also registered a company.
Speaker 1: The notary Jerome Otto is expected to get back to
Speaker 1: Evelyn about this and other documents we are seeking this.
Speaker 7: Month, and her and we in that an argument or
Speaker 7: something like that. He apparently nicked off back to Europe
Speaker 7: and then she went on a cruise, on a cruise
Speaker 7: called the Pino Ariana. Find that where my dad was working, right,
Speaker 7: and that's how I came to.
Speaker 5: Be Okay, So it was just a brief fling with
Speaker 5: your dad, I think so correct. And then she went
Speaker 5: to Belgium.
Speaker 3: And she got pregnant.
Speaker 7: Say she's obviously gone, hey, Mike, you know, a great fling,
Speaker 7: but we're pred not pregnant now. So he's come off
Speaker 7: the boat and tried to do the right thing. I think,
Speaker 7: you know, went to Belgium and kind of was with her,
Speaker 7: and you know, I remember being in Belgium as a
Speaker 7: young kid and when we're going to kindergarten in Belgium,
Speaker 7: you know, so they got to school there, that sort
Speaker 7: of thing. I remember my uncle because he died very
Speaker 7: young as well, which is interesting. Yeah, so he was
Speaker 7: in the Special Forces, my uncle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, you like in his twenties or something,
Speaker 3: and he died late twenties. This is a tilla Yeah,
Speaker 3: tiller correct.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that is odd.
Speaker 3: So you know, both my mom and him dying young.
Speaker 5: Well, he didn't have scarlet fever as well, did he know,
Speaker 5: So it's not genetic. It's not scarlet fever in both cases.
Speaker 5: So it is odd.
Speaker 7: Well, that's what they say. You know, they never did
Speaker 7: toxic college of report. And even what I's pushing for him,
Speaker 7: they asking questions, why was I toxic cology report done?
Speaker 5: Well, I wanted to ask you, Yeah, I wanted to
Speaker 5: ask you about that again because it took nine months
Speaker 5: or longer. And and the reason we know that is
Speaker 5: because there was a law firm Maurice Blackburn, who apparently
Speaker 5: were acting on behalf of Ilona's dependence, which I can
Speaker 5: only guess. Would you your sister, and maybe Michael for
Speaker 5: a worker's compensation claim. Maybe I'm guessing because Ilana was
Speaker 5: driving home from work, although I'm not sure how that
Speaker 5: would cover having a stroke or a heart attack in
Speaker 5: a car. But anyway, I'm reading that. I've got these
Speaker 5: letters in front of me, and they're backwards and forwards.
Speaker 5: Are the kind of saying, where's the where's the coroner's report,
Speaker 5: where's all the top tropology? And apparently it just wasn't
Speaker 5: done for months and months, and there was a big
Speaker 5: the ombudsman got involved and finally it was done, but
Speaker 5: it appears that they really didn't come up with much
Speaker 5: in the way of answers, or by.
Speaker 3: That time it was too late.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I think because it took so long, by
Speaker 7: the time they got around to it, it was too late
Speaker 7: to even do a top skill to report.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the report of death for the coroner
Speaker 4: just says apparent cause heart attack and you look for
Speaker 4: some more detail because that's a very broad category of
Speaker 4: things that can actually kill, and it says there was
Speaker 4: there was no infection. The Pulmary system showed a clear trakira,
Speaker 4: there was gruel like material in the stomach. I mean
Speaker 4: it doesn't really nail down the cause of this supposing
Speaker 4: heart incident that led to her death in a car
Speaker 4: on the side of the road. What I can ask
Speaker 4: you about is that apparently there was some kind of
Speaker 4: settlement reached and some money paid to Michael that I'm
Speaker 4: guessing should have been in part yours.
Speaker 7: I received a small inheritance from my mother when I
Speaker 7: was eighteen. There's a lot of questions because you know,
Speaker 7: my grandmother remarried to.
Speaker 3: A guy called Joseph. So they fled Hungary during Joseph
Speaker 3: birerou Yeah, so.
Speaker 7: They fled Hungary in fifty six or whatever it was
Speaker 7: when Russia invaded and got out and started a new
Speaker 7: life in Belgium, and so we owned up. I think
Speaker 7: my grandmother and miss Joseph birero Go owned apartments in Belgium.
Speaker 7: The plot thickens because my grandmother they under his apartment,
Speaker 7: and I remember I had to get it interpreted. I
Speaker 7: received a correspondent to Lamar regarding an inheritance. But what
Speaker 7: a statement was that? Another manut is But looking back
Speaker 7: in Nasara and iieve didn't really understand it.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 7: Look, when I kind of go oh, I should have
Speaker 7: challenged that presurely really got into it.
Speaker 5: Chris explains he did get a payout from his mother's will,
Speaker 5: but he's confused about what that entailed. Evelyn says they
Speaker 5: did receive some money from their grandmother's inheritance, but that
Speaker 5: was after a private agreement was made and she doesn't
Speaker 5: know the details.
Speaker 7: So when my time my dad, that was like what really, Yeah, no,
Speaker 7: you definitely received it.
Speaker 3: We needed yes.
Speaker 5: So my understanding of that, Chris, is that that you
Speaker 5: should have got a healthy sum from the property there.
Speaker 5: But I think Joseph Biro ended up selling it and
Speaker 5: moving to the country with his new wife.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5: If I can just say, just from an outsider that
Speaker 5: you know, you and your sister, I just wish you
Speaker 5: both the very best going forward, because you've actually gone
Speaker 5: through and survived as little children, extremely traumatic and unusual circumstances.
Speaker 5: You know, it doesn't get much worse, and to actually
Speaker 5: survive that is enough. But to actually, you know, to
Speaker 5: thrive and as you say, heal and build a life
Speaker 5: and make make a life for yourself. And you're a
Speaker 5: tat of five now and a business owner. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, it's that that's pretty rare. It's very hard
Speaker 5: to do. So you know, i'd say both of you can.
Speaker 5: I think both of you can. I just say both
Speaker 5: of you can cut yourself a bit of slack going forward, because.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, I think I think for me, you know, might,
Speaker 7: like I said, of my ways open, but you know,
Speaker 7: you do get to a point wharing. I'm fifty one
Speaker 7: in July, and you know how many a young fella
Speaker 7: and I've got.
Speaker 3: You know, everything's ahead ahead of my life. There's nothing
Speaker 3: to stop me from doing anything I want to.
Speaker 7: And that's why I say to anyone, and I think
Speaker 7: he's probably going to listen to this is you know,
Speaker 7: it's easy to get stuck.
Speaker 3: And I was stuck for a long time. But you know,
Speaker 3: the end of the day, it only takes one decision.
Speaker 3: You're only one position away from turning things around.
Speaker 7: And there are so many doors that are waiting for
Speaker 7: anyone in this position to open. But what happens is
Speaker 7: when you get stuck, you don't you look through a
Speaker 7: narrow door, and then you actually stop looking at the
Speaker 7: other doors that are around you that are all waiting
Speaker 7: to be open, because you're so stuck on this one thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and well said Chris, and at the start of
Speaker 5: this conversation, you asked me about your mum, and I
Speaker 5: just wondered if you had some suspicions about the circumstances
Speaker 5: of how she passed away, do you?
Speaker 3: Of course I do. Of course I do, because that
Speaker 3: touched the reports.
Speaker 7: You know, I guess I'm a bit a bit, you know,
Speaker 7: the timing of him coming back to what happened with
Speaker 7: my sister, with the champagne bottom lined look of things.
Speaker 3: You know, I was around at the time, and it
Speaker 3: was just too uncanny.
Speaker 4: It was just weird.
Speaker 3: And in the end, we'll never know.
Speaker 7: And I guess it's one of those questions that you know,
Speaker 7: she's been buried for too long now and you can't
Speaker 7: even go back and you know, exsume her to go
Speaker 7: through the process. So you know, it's just it was
Speaker 7: poorly handled. So there was a settlement. Well, you know,
Speaker 7: good luck to debt about it. You know, you could
Speaker 7: at least put a hitch out of my mother's grave.
Speaker 3: You didn't. Never do that.
Speaker 7: I mean, that's the thing that gets me, and I
Speaker 7: will do that one day myself. So you know, I guess,
Speaker 7: I just yeah, I just guess that it is what
Speaker 7: it is. Life goes on, mate, life goes on like
Speaker 7: I don't. I don't see do you want her in
Speaker 7: every day? But there is a part of me it
Speaker 7: that we've spoken and when I have these conversations and
Speaker 7: it is brought up in his context that then I
Speaker 7: kind of get you.
Speaker 3: Well, I actually would like to know a little bit
Speaker 3: and i's more. If there's more out there, come back
Speaker 3: to me and let me know.
Speaker 7: But otherwise I'm not going to sit here, you know,
Speaker 7: spending hours and hours trying to you know, find out
Speaker 7: myself because I just don't have the time of the energy.
Speaker 7: I've got my family to take care of my children,
Speaker 7: and that's my focus on my business and you know,
Speaker 7: taking care of mine. You know, I've got dreams and
Speaker 7: I want to say there's dreams fulfilled. So you know,
Speaker 7: life too.
Speaker 3: Short as you may.
Speaker 4: Yep, And thanks for talking to me, Chris. I wish
Speaker 4: you all the best going.
Speaker 3: Forward, mate, Thank you, mate, I appreciate your time.
Speaker 5: To sum up, Chris says that within weeks if his
Speaker 5: mother dying, his father could not cope, and he and
Speaker 5: Evelyn were both put in homes. There was no funeral
Speaker 5: for a loner and no headstone to mark her grave.
Speaker 5: To this day, he wonders how his mother died and
Speaker 5: his uncle just a short time later. He says a
Speaker 5: relative told him a loner remained in love with Willie
Speaker 5: even after they separated and she met Michael. Our investigation continues. Meanwhile,
Speaker 5: many listeners have asked us about what happened when Diane
Speaker 5: de Headevry was confronted by Spotlight's Liam Bartlett.
Speaker 8: This is the head of her How are you well here?
Speaker 8: It is Liam Bartlett from seven News Spotlight. Do you
Speaker 8: mind if we just have a quick chat to you?
Speaker 8: We just want to ask you a couple of questions
Speaker 8: about your husband. Did you have any idea that your
Speaker 8: husband was involved with the exploitation of so many women
Speaker 8: over the years? Missuster Headavery, missus the Headavery, We just
Speaker 8: want to ask you how terrible it must have been
Speaker 8: for you. Do you mind just having a quick chat
Speaker 8: to us? Do you mind having a quick chat to us?
Speaker 4: Please?
Speaker 8: Madam missuster Headavery, why won't you talk to us?
Speaker 1: Following our trip to Belgium and Luxembourg the Spotlight Special
Speaker 1: and the release of these past five episodes, a variety
Speaker 1: of new leads have emerged. It will take us a
Speaker 1: bit of time to properly investigate them, but rest assured
Speaker 1: we will keep you posted every step of the way
Speaker 1: until next time.
Speaker 5: If you knew Marian or have any information about her
Speaker 5: or her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our
Speaker 5: website is sevennews dot com dot au slash news slash
Speaker 5: the Lady Vanishers and you can also message us here.
Speaker 5: You can also send us an anonymous tip at the
Speaker 5: Lady Vanishers dot org. If you like what you're hearing,
Speaker 5: don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series.
Speaker 5: It helps new listeners find us. Presenter and executive producer
Speaker 5: Alison Sandy, investigative journalist Brian Seymour, writer and producer Sally Yields.
Speaker 5: Sound design Mark Wright, graphics Jason Blandford, translation and transcripts
Speaker 5: Estel Sanchez, Voice actors Aurelian Ritter, Veronique Durcell and the
Speaker 5: Brisbane seven Newsroom. The theme and much of the music
Speaker 5: by Nicholas Gasparini at the Dark Piano dot com. Thanks
Speaker 5: again to the Alliance Francais. This is a seven News
Speaker 5: production