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Speaker 1: Podcasting.

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Speaker 2: Now, our next guest was the first female prime minister

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Speaker 2: of this great country.

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Speaker 3: You the national anthem.

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Speaker 2: Astelliensle go on guys play the real anthem ah that's

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Speaker 2: better well before than me too movement.

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Speaker 3: She was sticking off for us, ladies.

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Speaker 4: I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by

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Speaker 4: this man.

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Speaker 5: I will not.

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Speaker 3: It's still so good, isn't it? To tell us all

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Speaker 3: about her new book, Women in Leadership, Real Lives, Real Lessons.

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Speaker 2: It's the honorable Julia Gillard.

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Speaker 5: Loder the show. Julia, thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you for that world class introduction.

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Speaker 3: Julia's got a brand new book.

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Speaker 5: It's called Women in Leadership Get at All Good Bookstores,

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Speaker 5: which she's co authored with a four woman Nigerian finance minister.

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Speaker 5: Was if you could pronounce their name, that'd be huge.

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Speaker 3: And gozi aconjo Awela? Is that right? Julia?

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Speaker 4: Well done?

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Speaker 3: And I threw you in front of a bus there

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Speaker 3: and I did my research. Will I did my research?

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Speaker 5: Now, Julia. The books about four key messages, all about

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Speaker 5: women in leadership and trying to help them through that

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Speaker 5: process and obviously through your experience, the pitfalls and things

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Speaker 5: they should look out for amazingly. The first thing that

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Speaker 5: you reference here is the fashion police. That's sort of

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Speaker 5: the first part of the book. It's in four parts.

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Speaker 5: Can you just talk me through, like how strenuous a

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Speaker 5: job it was as a woman choosing your clothes each day?

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Speaker 5: Or did you have somebody to do that for you?

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Speaker 5: And why did you feel like there was so much

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Speaker 5: pressure on that part of your job?

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Speaker 4: In the book, what we do when Gosy and Eyes

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Speaker 4: we interview eight women leaders from around the world, so

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Speaker 4: it's our experiences and their experiences. And one thing that

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Speaker 4: stays with me very clearly from the interviews we did

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Speaker 4: is Hillary Clinton actually added up how much time she

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Speaker 4: spent in hair and makeup day after day after day

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Speaker 4: for the twenty sixteen presidential campaign, and it added up

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Speaker 4: to twenty four days all up. And yeah, why do

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Speaker 4: women do that? Because you know that if you don't

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Speaker 4: turn out looking kind of you know, camera ready, with

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Speaker 4: a non controversial outset, that whatever you'll want to say

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Speaker 4: that day will be swamped in coverage about what you're wearing.

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Speaker 4: So actually, all the time is taken not so people

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Speaker 4: wander around saying, gee, she looks nice all the time.

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Speaker 4: It's taken so people don't react to your appearance at all.

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Speaker 4: So you'd have people who would bring choices for you

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Speaker 4: to where you were, you pick clothes, you know, so

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Speaker 4: you'd end up with, you know, a wardrope of clothes

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Speaker 4: that you would travel with and have at the lodge

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Speaker 4: in the official residence. But the aim you had was

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Speaker 4: that people wouldn't be talking about what you were wearing.

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Speaker 4: And I certainly know from my second day as Prime Minister.

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Speaker 4: I was sworn in one day and the next day

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Speaker 4: I wore a colored jacket to a shopping center and

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Speaker 4: all of the TV coverage was dominated, all of the

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Speaker 4: newspaper coverage by whether or not people like the jackets.

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Speaker 4: So that's exactly what you don't want to have happened.

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Speaker 3: What was the end pol thet Did people like the

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Speaker 3: jacket or didn't that like? The jacket was a golden

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Speaker 3: what do you see here? Sort of a number?

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Speaker 4: I think, I think, if my recollection is right, it

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Speaker 4: was unfortunately compared to a cheap motel bedspread.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't lie that as a woman in your

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Speaker 1: position and just choosing what to wear, because you couldn't

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Speaker 1: wear something on the one hand and which was too.

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Speaker 5: Sultry for one of a better word, and then on

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Speaker 5: the other hand, you couldn't wear anything which was you know,

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Speaker 5: sort of too robotic or you know, formulating. It feels

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Speaker 5: like that's a bit of a theme because in the

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Speaker 5: third part of the book you're also talking about leaders

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Speaker 5: that you're interviewing, saying that the situation is not getting

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Speaker 5: any better because you know, if we use that, if

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Speaker 5: we stick with the wardrobe analogy, the same thing applies

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Speaker 5: to your personality as well, because if you're too strong

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Speaker 5: or assertive, you're seeing a sort of cold or robotic,

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Speaker 5: bitchy even. But then if you're you know, sort of

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Speaker 5: seem to be a bit warm, then then you're you're

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Speaker 5: too motherly and you're too soft. And I mean, the

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Speaker 5: sad part about that is I suppose that men don't

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Speaker 5: have that problem in positions of leadership, and that doesn't

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Speaker 5: just apply to politics.

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Speaker 3: That's everywhere.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you're a guy and you're you know,

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Speaker 5: sort of assertive and strong, then you know, he's a

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Speaker 5: powerful bloke with a strong point of view. Whereas it's

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Speaker 5: a double standard. Can you can you talk a bit

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Speaker 5: more about that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it is a double standard and researchers have been

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Speaker 4: pointing at this for a while. So what they do

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Speaker 4: is they, you know, get groups of voters, so you know,

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Speaker 4: two groups of voters in two different venues, and they

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Speaker 4: get someone a man to appear in front of one

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Speaker 4: audience and a woman in front of the other, and

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Speaker 4: they're pretending that they're running for the Senate or something

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Speaker 4: like that, and actually they're actors. But they're given a

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Speaker 4: script and the script is exactly the same, and they

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Speaker 4: do things like test the audience reaction if the script's

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Speaker 4: got lines in it, like, you know, I'm the kind

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Speaker 4: of person who gets things done. I might have to

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Speaker 4: stand on other people's toes to make sure the job

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Speaker 4: gets done, but I always achieve. I'm always the one

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Speaker 4: who delivers. And when a man says lines like that,

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Speaker 4: all fine. When a woman says it, the audience has

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Speaker 4: a real adverse reaction. And when they're polled the end

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Speaker 4: of it as to would you vote for this candidate,

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Speaker 4: then the female candidate records far lower votes, even though

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Speaker 4: she said exactly the same words as the male candidate.

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Speaker 4: So it's sort of telling us that we've still got

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Speaker 4: gender stereotypes in our brains, and we expect women to

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Speaker 4: be empathetic and nurturing and to put the team first,

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Speaker 4: not being self seeking. And if a woman offends against

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Speaker 4: those stereotypes, then we can pay out on them pretty strongly.

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Speaker 4: But men don't pay the same price.

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Speaker 3: That is terrible. What an amazing study.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's been done, Hey, Julia, as Will and I

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Speaker 6: where two men and we host this national radio show.

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Speaker 6: Just from your experience with this book that you've done

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Speaker 6: is interviews that you've done. Could you give any advice

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Speaker 6: for Will and I on You know, we're two people

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Speaker 6: who want to see a change here moving forwards with

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Speaker 6: women in the workplace and women in leadership? Could you

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Speaker 6: give any advice to two people that are speaking to

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Speaker 6: the masses every day and two men for that matter.

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Speaker 4: I would venture a little bit of advice if I could. Firstly,

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Speaker 4: I'd say, perhaps, you know, at the end of every

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Speaker 4: week or whatever, do a bit of account as to

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Speaker 4: who you've had on in which category and see if

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Speaker 4: you're giving affair shared to women, like if you want

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Speaker 4: to have politicians on or you're getting half women business people?

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Speaker 4: Are you getting half women? Because that role modeling matters,

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Speaker 4: and you know there'll be young women and girls who

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Speaker 4: are listening to your show who are thinking, oh, I

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Speaker 4: could do that one day. Second, I think it's always

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Speaker 4: worth doing the comparison. Would you have done the introduction

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Speaker 4: the same or the questions the same if you were

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Speaker 4: speaking to a man. So you know, you think of

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Speaker 4: all of those journalist articles that start, you know, Susie,

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Speaker 4: mother of two wearing a white jacket today said and

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Speaker 4: if you just, you know, drop in John and think

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Speaker 4: to yourself, would you really have gone, father of two?

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Speaker 4: Would you really have gone? What color jacket he's wearing?

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Speaker 5: It gives you a tist, fascinating, brilliant that we probably

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Speaker 5: should have introduced you as Julia Gillard, formerly known for

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Speaker 5: wearing a jacket that looked like a motel bedspread.

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Speaker 4: I'm grateful you didn't.

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Speaker 5: I'll do it next time. Julia, Thank you so much

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Speaker 5: for joining us on the show Mate. It's been an

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Speaker 5: absolute pleasure to have you on. It's obviously just such

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Speaker 5: a layered issue in so many ways, and that's why

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Speaker 5: the brand new book's got four different parts to it,

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Speaker 5: all about women and leadership. It's some amazing interviews there,

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Speaker 5: Theresa May, Hillary Clinton, just Cindra doing Christine le garde

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Speaker 5: as I said before, and Nagozi okondro Iweala, who is

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Speaker 5: Nigerian Finance minister who's about to keep partner and look, yeah,

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Speaker 5: is anything that we've taken out of it, it's that

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Speaker 5: you know, you in particular where the position that you

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Speaker 5: were in at the time that you were in, I mean,

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Speaker 5: just talking about some of these issues just you know,

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Speaker 5: feels for me like a hurdle, So I can't imagine

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Speaker 5: what it was like in your position. So without pitying

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Speaker 5: or overextending or reaching, congratulations on all that you've achieved

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Speaker 5: and all that you are in Australia's eyes right now,

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Speaker 5: which is really nicon. It's amazing.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much. I very much enjoyed that conversation.

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Speaker 3: See what you're hearing.

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