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Speaker 1: Who knew that I had an uncle who was building

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Speaker 1: a curriculum that tight kids about their feelings. He was

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Speaker 1: the first person who really ever asked me, how are

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Speaker 1: you feeling? And the thing that he did differently than

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Speaker 1: everybody else was he plause and he listened.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 3: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 4: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson and I'm Kylie and

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Speaker 4: we're the parents of six girls, and I've authored six

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Speaker 4: books about raising happy families.

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Speaker 2: While I was raising.

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Speaker 4: Them, I've been waiting to say that life was so long.

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Speaker 4: Just yeah, yeah, And I've got no comeback at all?

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Speaker 2: What do I say?

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Speaker 3: During twenty twenty, you've had a bunch of interviews with

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Speaker 3: some really remarkable people as you've kind of dissected and

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Speaker 3: discussed and helped parents to understand the psychology behind parenting better.

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Speaker 3: But over the past couple of weeks we've been talking

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Speaker 3: specifically with Alfie Cole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how cous that been.

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Speaker 4: That's been brilliant and he's coming back as well. By

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Speaker 4: the way, he said that he would come back one

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Speaker 4: more time to talk about time out and.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be.

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Speaker 3: That's a big topic.

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Speaker 2: That's next week. I'm very excited for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but today something really exciting. Someone who knows about

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Speaker 3: kids and big emotions better than anyone else we know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, Professor Mark Brackett is the founder and director

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Speaker 4: of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He's a professor

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Speaker 4: in the Child Study Center at Yale University and Mark's

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Speaker 4: also the lead developer of an educational program called RULER,

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Speaker 4: which is an evidence based approach to social and emotional learning,

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Speaker 4: or SEL as they call it in schools. Has been

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Speaker 4: adopted by something like two thousand schools across the US.

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Speaker 4: There's schools here in Australia who are on it. I

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Speaker 4: mean this, Mark's a really big deal. And I've been

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Speaker 4: in conversation with him for quite a number of years now.

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Speaker 3: Mark's expertise in emotions and emotional intelligence means he's worked

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Speaker 3: with some pretty big names. You know, we're talking about

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Speaker 3: companies like Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and he's joining us now.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Marcu's great to have you with us.

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Speaker 4: I'd like to start at the beginning at a conference

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Speaker 4: that we're we both had a while back some years

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Speaker 4: ago in Sydney. We were talking about how you had

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Speaker 4: an uncle who was a teacher and he influenced you in.

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Speaker 2: Really, really great ways.

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Speaker 4: I love the fact that you've got this person, not

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Speaker 4: your parents, who.

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Speaker 2: Is being that influence on you. I think that's really important.

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Speaker 4: But you mentioned a lot more about this in great

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Speaker 4: detail in your book Permission to Feel. Can you tell

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Speaker 4: us a bit about Uncle Marvin and how he put

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Speaker 4: you on the path to being an emotion scientist.

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Speaker 1: Well, as you know from reading my book, I had

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Speaker 1: some trauma in my childhood, quite a lot of trauma.

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Speaker 1: I was abused by a neighbor for many years as

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Speaker 1: a young child, and then I was terrifically bullied in school.

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Speaker 1: I had terrible self esteem and just couldn't get out

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Speaker 1: of my own way. And also nobody really wanted to

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Speaker 1: come my way except for one person, who was my

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Speaker 1: uncle Marvin. And I should say that I had two

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Speaker 1: parents who loved me, but they both were dealing with

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Speaker 1: their own life challenges. You know, my father had a

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Speaker 1: lot of anger from his childhood. My mother had tremendous

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Speaker 1: anxiety and depression, and they were just busy trying to

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Speaker 1: deal with their own feelings. Nevertheless, deal with mine. I

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Speaker 1: had two older brothers. One had a physical illness, the

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Speaker 1: other one had mental health problems, and so my mother

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Speaker 1: was just like lost, you know, dealing with everybody's issues,

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Speaker 1: and so I don't think they had the ability to

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Speaker 1: really attend to my experience. They were I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if they were even could be aware of what

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Speaker 1: was going on. And so I was blessed that my

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Speaker 1: mother's brother, Marvin, Uncle Marvin, was getting a master's degree

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Speaker 1: in education and counseling in the town where I grew up,

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Speaker 1: and he'd come down the weekends and stay over and

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Speaker 1: we chat in the backyard. And who knew that I

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Speaker 1: had an uncle who was building a curriculum that taught

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Speaker 1: kids about their feelings, except I did. And we would

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Speaker 1: have these very rich conversations. And he was the first

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Speaker 1: person who really ever asked me that simple but profound question,

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Speaker 1: which is how are you feeling? And the thing that

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Speaker 1: he did differently than everybody else was he pause and

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Speaker 1: he listened.

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Speaker 4: And I've noticed that, you know, we have a way

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Speaker 4: of being with people when we see somebody will say hey.

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Speaker 2: In Australia, we say how are you going? How you going? Mate?

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Speaker 4: In America, you say, hey, how you doing. But but

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Speaker 4: we don't really listen to see what people say. It's

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Speaker 4: it's a greeting. It's like hi, there's no real interest

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Speaker 4: in hearing what the other person says.

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Speaker 2: But your uncle Marvin would actually ask. And then wait, because.

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Speaker 1: I think there's so many layers to it. You know, one,

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Speaker 1: everybody's busy and you know, so you know, like, ask

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Speaker 1: me how I'm feeling?

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Speaker 2: Justin, Mark, are you feeling my dad?

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Speaker 1: Let's pretend you're my dad. I'm like, I'm in high

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Speaker 1: school or middle school, and you're like, so, let's go

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Speaker 1: for it. Go ahead, all right.

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Speaker 4: What I'm going to do is I'm not actually going

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Speaker 4: to ask you what you asked me to ask. I'm

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Speaker 4: going to ask what a typical parent would ask at

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Speaker 4: the end of a school day.

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Speaker 2: Because it's a very big difference.

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Speaker 4: You you said, ask me how I'm feeling, But most

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Speaker 4: parents don't say how are you feeling? Most parents say, hey, Mark,

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Speaker 4: how is school fine? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Anything happened? What'd you get up to? Who'd you talk to?

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Speaker 2: Tell me something?

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Speaker 1: Nothing?

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Speaker 4: And that's about it, right, That's that's kind of and

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Speaker 4: then and then then parents will say to me, justin,

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Speaker 4: how do I get my kids to open up.

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Speaker 2: How do I get them to talk to me?

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Speaker 4: But what I'm hearing you in the very question that

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Speaker 4: you asked me to ask, you're saying that at the

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Speaker 4: end of the school day, I should say, Hey, Mark,

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Speaker 4: how are you feeling today?

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Speaker 2: How are you feeling this afternoon? How are you feeling

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Speaker 2: about school?

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Speaker 4: Or would it be reasonable to even say as you

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Speaker 4: get into the car, I can probably tell what kind

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Speaker 4: of a day you've had, and I might say, looks

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Speaker 4: like you've had a really tough day to day.

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Speaker 1: I would prefer not to do that. Tell me why,

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Speaker 1: because I think that behavior is misleading. And so, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not that comfortable either for someone to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have an answer? Does it all the time? She's

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Speaker 1: like everything okay, And I'm like it was until you

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Speaker 1: last yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it's like, what's wrong,

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Speaker 1: Like okay, can't wait to have this conversation. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I prefer more open ended, you know, or maybe hey,

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Speaker 1: let's think you might be having a bad day with

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Speaker 1: what's going on, you know, let me share a little

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Speaker 1: about what happened to me today. I had this great meeting,

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Speaker 1: but then I had this terrible meeting, and so you're

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Speaker 1: like opening up as you're asking.

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Speaker 3: There's a real sense of reciprocity, there isn't there. You

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Speaker 3: know a lot of parents will say, my kids never

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Speaker 3: tell me anything. But I wonder how many of us

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Speaker 3: actually talk to our children and tell them things.

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Speaker 1: Well, A lot of parents, a lot of male parents

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Speaker 1: in particular, they feel reluctant to talk about feelings because

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Speaker 1: they think it's weak. I can't tell you how many

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Speaker 1: dads come up to me after I give my presentations

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Speaker 1: and they say things like, oh, my goodness, that you

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Speaker 1: are so vulnerable. You shared about your abuse and you're

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Speaker 1: bullying and you know your mother and your father, and

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Speaker 1: the I say uh huh, and they say things like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would never let my son know that

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Speaker 1: I was bullied. And I'm like, why not? And they

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Speaker 1: say things like, well, my son would think you know,

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Speaker 1: I was weak? And then I say, well, what if

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Speaker 1: your son is being bullied right now? And somehow another

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Speaker 1: you're a mindset around all this basically prohibits you from

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Speaker 1: having deep conversations. Then all of a sudden, people start

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Speaker 1: second guessing and they start, you know, taking a little

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Speaker 1: breath and saying, yeah, you know, maybe there's something to this,

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Speaker 1: you know, asking questions.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 4: We're going to continue to chat with Mark Brackett after

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Speaker 4: this very short break.

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Speaker 1: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 1: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 4: Details at happy families dot com dot are you.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants now, why.

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Speaker 4: Well, because you've never done that before, You've actually just

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Speaker 4: become the anchor of the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Can you believe it? I'm having a little.

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Speaker 3: Giggle because we've had the kids being doing it for

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Speaker 3: the last little while and they found it really weird,

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Speaker 3: and now I am too. Anyway, we're talking with Mark Brackett,

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Speaker 3: an expert on human emotions and emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for putting up with us there, Mark, Can we

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Speaker 4: get back to Uncle Marvin for a second. He asks

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Speaker 4: how you're feeling, and then he just listens, and then

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Speaker 4: you have an opportunity to explore with him that you've

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Speaker 4: been experiencing bullying, you don't feel connected to your family,

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Speaker 4: and there's all these challenges going on. Do you disclose

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Speaker 4: the abuse from the neighbors. At this point, you do,

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Speaker 4: and what happens is he listens, and as all of

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Speaker 4: these disclosures are.

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Speaker 1: Made, what happens is and I finally feel like there's

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Speaker 1: somebody who cares about me.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And I finally feel like there's someone who's my partner

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Speaker 1: in this journey of healing. And I finally feel like

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Speaker 1: someone listens without judgment and isn't saying things like, don't

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Speaker 1: tell me what's happening. I'm going to have a nervous breakdown,

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Speaker 1: which was with my mother or my father would say

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Speaker 1: something like some you're tough enough. They're tough enough. Son.

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Speaker 1: Now It's funny because I have a fifth degree of

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Speaker 1: black belt now and I still don't think of myself

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Speaker 1: as a tough guy.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny, you know.

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Speaker 4: I think back to my early days in school, and

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Speaker 4: at some point I was being maybe bullied is a

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Speaker 4: stronger term than I'm comfortable using. I've never considered myself

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Speaker 4: as someone who was bullied, but I certainly was being

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Speaker 4: teased and picked on and I wasn't having.

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Speaker 2: A good time of it.

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Speaker 4: And I remember telling my dad about how that felt,

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Speaker 4: and Dad wasn't particularly interested. I mean, I love my

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Speaker 4: dad and he's a great dad, But he just wasn't

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Speaker 4: really that interested in how I was feeling about it.

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Speaker 4: He said to me, justin next time they do it,

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Speaker 4: get your hand and put your hand out in front

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Speaker 4: of you and scrunch up your fingers into a fist

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Speaker 4: and punch him in the nose. And to my dad,

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Speaker 4: you know, in nineteen seventies nineteen eighties parenting, that's how

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Speaker 4: you fix a problem where someone's not being nice to

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Speaker 4: you. You just punch him in the nose. You tough en up,

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Speaker 4: you get on with it, don't worry about all those feelings.

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Speaker 4: You won't have to worry about those.

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Speaker 2: Feeling is if you just give him a good punch

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Speaker 2: in the hit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean some You know, I'm never going to

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Speaker 1: tell someone never to not fight, because sometimes that's the

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Speaker 1: only option. But it's nice to think of alternatives, right,

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Speaker 1: what else might you do? One of the big lessons

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Speaker 1: you know from Uncle Marvin was that he, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was what I call the compassionate emotion scientists because

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Speaker 1: he didn't take my behavior in my posture. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: triggered by it, right, because parents get triggered. My parents

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Speaker 1: were so easily triggered by me activated. You know, I

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Speaker 1: would come home from I hate school. I'm never going

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Speaker 1: to school again, and I hate you, and my mother

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Speaker 1: would be who do you think you are talking to

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Speaker 1: me that way? Get to your realm, you know, wait

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Speaker 1: till your father gets home. Wow, I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: Dayna to get home. That's going to be a fun night.

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Speaker 1: And then it would be I would get hit oftentimes

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Speaker 1: my father for you know, swearing or yelling at my mother,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, my father lose his control, and

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Speaker 1: then my parents would get angry with each other, and

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Speaker 1: then my mother would with my father, and my father

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Speaker 1: with my mother, and I just became then here I

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Speaker 1: am this lost soul who's being abused and bullied, you know,

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Speaker 1: like sitting there by myself saying like one day I

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Speaker 1: will be in emotions.

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Speaker 4: But the irony there is you're going away to school

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Speaker 4: and you're being abused and bullied, but then you come

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Speaker 4: home to the place that you're supposed to feel safe,

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Speaker 4: and instead you're being abused and bullied at home by

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Speaker 4: parents who quote unquote who loves you?

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Speaker 1: Don't have language. I have no language to talk about

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Speaker 1: my feelings. They have no strategies. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: what the heck of strategy is to deal with feelings.

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Speaker 1: No coping strategies, no management strategies. I have two parents

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Speaker 1: who are activated by you know, the by anything, and

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Speaker 1: so like, you're just a lost soul at that point,

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Speaker 1: trying to survive because you have no adult role models

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Speaker 1: supporting you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this isn't to demonized them, right, they're stock.

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Speaker 2: They don't know what to do, no.

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Speaker 1: Clue because you know, they're blaming themselves for their own misfortunes.

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Speaker 1: They're angry at the world. You know, they haven't dealt

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Speaker 1: with their own parents' issues. And so there's this little

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Speaker 1: boy who's kind of trying to survive, not learning how

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Speaker 1: to deal with his feelings, eating his feelings, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing weird stuff, and it's all done secretly because no

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Speaker 1: one's paying attention.

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Speaker 3: This has been such a great conversation, Mark, It would

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Speaker 3: be great if we could be a little bit cheeky

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Speaker 3: and ask you to come back again. I would love

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Speaker 3: to kind of just you know, get into the real

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Speaker 3: nitty gritties for parents on how they can deal with

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Speaker 3: big emotions.

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Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: Professor Mark Brackett, the author of Permission to Feel it's

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Speaker 4: a book about helping our kids and us to understand

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Speaker 4: our emotions better. Hope you've enjoyed this chat with Mark

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Speaker 4: Brackett on today's Happy Families podcast. I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 4: continuing the conversation with Mark on emotions and they're not

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Speaker 4: too distant future. If you have enjoyed the pop please

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Speaker 4: jump onto Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review.

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Speaker 4: Tell people what you like about the podcast. It's those

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Speaker 4: reviews that help other people defind the podcast and make

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Speaker 4: their families happier. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 4: Justin Rulm. Thanks for making sound great, Justin, and our

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Speaker 4: executive producer is Craig Bruce.

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Speaker 2: If you'd like more info about how we can make your.

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Speaker 4: Family flourish, particularly if you'd like that ongoing monthly support,

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Speaker 4: the Happy Families memberships are available at Happyfamilies dot com

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Speaker 4: dot au, or you can follow us on Facebook at

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Speaker 4: doctor Justin Coulson's Happy Families