Speaker 1: Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty
Speaker 1: verdicts against all three defendants.
Speaker 2: It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just
Speaker 2: absolutely really helous.
Speaker 1: Blood on his clothing a day after the alleged at
Speaker 1: top on.
Speaker 3: A shallow mud bank and its bit through river. Basically,
Speaker 3: I think most of the people are used to me
Speaker 3: are good people. I think a really important question we
Speaker 3: need to ask is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia
Speaker 3: are innocent.
Speaker 1: This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the
Speaker 1: blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of
Speaker 1: our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm
Speaker 1: Amy Maguire and.
Speaker 3: I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner
Speaker 3: Support Service. And a warning. This series contains the names
Speaker 3: of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset
Speaker 3: some listeners.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Curtin the podcast. This year, in June, a
Speaker 1: young woman named your deitxs and was murdered in a
Speaker 1: park in central Melbourne. The Victorian police responded by warning
Speaker 1: women to have situational awareness walking by themselves at Nightsy's
Speaker 1: death and the police response prompted a large outpour of
Speaker 1: anger from many women all across the country who claimed
Speaker 1: saw themselves the DC. It led to a creation about
Speaker 1: the violent behavior of men and the responsibility men now e'r.
Speaker 1: DC's death was on the front pages of newspapers all
Speaker 1: across the country. The immediate reaction and outpouring of grief
Speaker 1: and anger led in some way to justice and also
Speaker 1: led to very important conversations. But of course we never
Speaker 1: get the same outpouring of grief and anger for the
Speaker 1: numbers of Aboriginal women who die and whose name remain unknown.
Speaker 1: In fact, within the same month as you were DC
Speaker 1: Dixon's death, an inquest handed down to into the death
Speaker 1: of an Aboriginal woman in the Northern Territory who, for
Speaker 1: cultural reasons, we know as Cowmen J Green Coomen Dre.
Speaker 1: Green's name is not known barely outside of the Northern Territory,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that she wasn't worthy, and that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we shouldn't be talking about her. The
Speaker 1: Northern Territory Coroner found that the Northern Territory Police had
Speaker 1: watched the investigation but did not call it for what
Speaker 1: it was, institutional racism. But in society that continually marks
Speaker 1: Aboriginal women as disposable, and their deaths do not end
Speaker 1: up being worthy of grief, as we've seen in the
Speaker 1: differences in the Way You're a DC. Dixon's death was
Speaker 1: reported to that of Coomen J. Green, And we also
Speaker 1: know that women Dre Green wasn't the only Aboriginal woman
Speaker 1: to die in similar circumstances, and she wasn't the only
Speaker 1: Aboriginal woman whose death didn't make the front pages of
Speaker 1: newspapers all across the country. So martin a little bit
Speaker 1: about J. Greens? Do she was and why that the
Speaker 1: coroner has handed down the recent findings?
Speaker 2: Yea, So to begin, miss Green dot on the twenty
Speaker 2: first of November twenty thirteen, and just like to see,
Speaker 2: she was close to home, but not quite there. She
Speaker 2: was in a vacant block of land when she was
Speaker 2: found the following day. The deaths are similar in that
Speaker 2: both women were found with clear evidence of foul play
Speaker 2: and police were notified immediately. But this is where things
Speaker 2: change very differently. Whereas Eurydicty Dixon's case was classified a
Speaker 2: major crime immediately, it took three years, eleven months, and
Speaker 2: twenty seven days for Miss Green's death to be classified
Speaker 2: in the same way and no one would be charged.
Speaker 2: What's shocking about that is that, whereas the individual believed
Speaker 2: and alleged to be responsible for Eurydicy Dixon's death fled
Speaker 2: the scene, lying next to the deceased Miss Green was
Speaker 2: a man. Miss Green had suffered a stab wound and
Speaker 2: as the pathologists reported, had likely bled out within about
Speaker 2: five minutes, causing her death. Something that's important to note
Speaker 2: is that the police had seen Miss Green earlier that night.
Speaker 2: It wasn't to do with anything she'd done wrong. They
Speaker 2: were dropping off a relative to a place where she
Speaker 2: had been saying. But as is a problem in the
Speaker 2: Northern Territory and right around Australia for Aboriginal women and children,
Speaker 2: housing was very difficult to come by. A lack of
Speaker 2: housing and a lack of provision meant that that night
Speaker 2: Miss Green didn't have a place to go. She was
Speaker 2: in fact going to be sleeping outside that night when
Speaker 2: it was discovered she was deceased. The following morning, the
Speaker 2: man lying with her and another individual contacted TRIPLO and
Speaker 2: this was stated also to the TRIPLEO operator that she'd
Speaker 2: been stabbed. Now immediately that should spark direct action from
Speaker 2: the police. This is the most serious of crimes. A
Speaker 2: person is believed to be deceased and it's believed, according
Speaker 2: to the people who are there at the scene, that
Speaker 2: the person has been stabbed. Police didn't treat it in
Speaker 2: this way at all. There was a casual cleaning of
Speaker 2: the crime scene. A person was taken in Tustiny, but
Speaker 2: they were released relatively bread afterwards. And that despite the
Speaker 2: fact that the police have the power to hold a
Speaker 2: suspect until they conclude the initial part of the air
Speaker 2: investigation so that the crime scene in this case couldn't
Speaker 2: be tampered with, the police never secured the crime scene.
Speaker 2: And despite the fact that miss Green died from a
Speaker 2: very serious stab wound that was fifty five millimeters deep
Speaker 2: into her thigh, cutting the femoral artery, it was decided
Speaker 2: by the police they couldn't determine if there was foul
Speaker 2: play or not. This is one of the most absurd
Speaker 2: and yet obvious things you will ever hurt hear someone
Speaker 2: doesn't simply stab themselves in the leg in this manner
Speaker 2: and die, And the way the police would operate from
Speaker 2: here on would show the vast difference in the way
Speaker 2: Aboriginal women are true read.
Speaker 1: One of the things that the coroner made a point
Speaker 1: of is that there was literally no excuse for the
Speaker 1: long delay and investigations. So with Komen Jay Green's case,
Speaker 1: it was four years before the coroner able to investigate.
Speaker 1: He also raised two other cases, a well known case
Speaker 1: of the boy from Boro Lula who had many similarities
Speaker 1: to the barrel case in New off Wales, and that
Speaker 1: boy died and the community knew that he had been
Speaker 1: killed and the police refused to believe it was a homicide.
Speaker 1: And these really crucial gaps in the investigation, driven by
Speaker 1: the police's credible shit displays of racism, led to no
Speaker 1: one being prosecuted. And the coroner also mentioned the death
Speaker 1: of another Aberige Normoman where there was a significant delay
Speaker 1: in the proceedings. What does that say about the fact
Speaker 1: that this case took four years and still no one
Speaker 1: has been prosecuted in relation to the death of Coomen j.
Speaker 1: Greener's shown territory, and what does it say about the
Speaker 1: way Aboriginal victims and in particular Aboriginal women are treated
Speaker 1: and viewed by the police.
Speaker 2: I think the common thing we see across all the
Speaker 2: cases that the coroner mentioned, and that you raised, and
Speaker 2: that we see in every Satan territory in Australia is
Speaker 2: the way these crimes are handled from the outset. As
Speaker 2: we said immediately with the most recent death in Victoria
Speaker 2: of Eurydicy Dixon, it was a major crime and classified
Speaker 2: as such immediately. That didn't take place, as I said,
Speaker 2: for nearly four years, and that only happened because the
Speaker 2: coroner repeatedly requested information and update and the case file
Speaker 2: from the police. They asked four or five times through
Speaker 2: that period of time and never received one. So it's
Speaker 2: quite possible that had the coroner never continued to ask
Speaker 2: for these case files of Miss Green and also these
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, none of them would have ever been
Speaker 2: considered ajor crime or investigated. The other thing we know
Speaker 2: is that, just as in Linda's case, in Miss Green's
Speaker 2: case too, not only was the crime scene not secured,
Speaker 2: but evidence was lost, evidence was misplaced, the chain of
Speaker 2: custody was broken, the interview processes were not done correctly.
Speaker 2: What we see from the police, despite their absurdatements in
Speaker 2: the Eurrodicy Dixon case, was that they made an arrest
Speaker 2: and conducted a thorough investigation immediately that did not happen
Speaker 2: in any of these cases, including Miss Greens. And what
Speaker 2: the coroner was quite critical of the police about was
Speaker 2: the police had basically convinced themselves that this was a
Speaker 2: self inflicted wound, so essentially suicide. And this is despite
Speaker 2: there being this knife wound fifty five millimeters deep and
Speaker 2: eighteen millimeters long in the left Miss Green. She also
Speaker 2: had bruising on her temple and elbow marks on her
Speaker 2: left hand. The knife itself was located and was a
Speaker 2: possible match for the wound that was inflicted. The person
Speaker 2: had who was lying next to Miss Green had been
Speaker 2: arrested and taken into custody by the police, and yet
Speaker 2: despite all this, that individual was never held and the
Speaker 2: police actually drove this man home. Can you imagine the
Speaker 2: outrage if the man who is alleged to have killed
Speaker 2: Eurydicey Dixon was not only not charged, but had been
Speaker 2: found lying next to Eurydicsy Dixon and was driven home
Speaker 2: by the police. I don't think we need to rationalize
Speaker 2: for long the increased level of outrage there already would
Speaker 2: be the other fact that he is deeply concerning and
Speaker 2: this happened has happened in Linda's case, all of these others,
Speaker 2: and now with miss Green's too, is that two officers
Speaker 2: from him were sent to investigate. One was a detective,
Speaker 2: the other was a senior constable. He was on his
Speaker 2: first day on the job with major crimes. How seriously,
Speaker 2: with the Northern Territory Police taking this death of an
Speaker 2: Aboriginal woman, if they send someone on the first day
Speaker 2: on the job, they did not care. Despite all the
Speaker 2: evidence mounting up, despite the prime suspect lying next to
Speaker 2: the victim, you don't get an easier case than this,
Speaker 2: They still decided that it was a self inflicted wound.
Speaker 2: They lost vital evidence. You have to wonder if the
Speaker 2: evidence was lost or if it was really destroyed, because
Speaker 2: after six months, the coroner was placing pressure on the
Speaker 2: police for a file. Now, you would expect that a coroner,
Speaker 2: being such a senior person in the criminal justice process,
Speaker 2: that police handling the case of an Aboriginal woman potentially
Speaker 2: who'd been murdered, would response to that coroner's request. They
Speaker 2: ignored the coroner for more than three years. They didn't
Speaker 2: listen to the community, they didn't listen to witness statements,
Speaker 2: and after just a few days, these two police officers
Speaker 2: from the Major Crime Squad, one of whom was on
Speaker 2: their first day, drove back to Darwin, didn't carry out
Speaker 2: any more investigation, didn't look at any more of the evidence,
Speaker 2: simply packed up and went home again. You have to
Speaker 2: ask how much outrage would there be if this was
Speaker 2: a non Indigenous woman and the police essentially said we
Speaker 2: don't care.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think you rade a lot of very good
Speaker 1: points about the lack of care for women Jay Green
Speaker 1: and the fact that we would never see that level
Speaker 1: of outreach around the death of an Aboriginal woman, And
Speaker 1: I think it all comes back to I think what
Speaker 1: originally sparked so much concern across social media, and which
Speaker 1: really led to the case being placed at the top
Speaker 1: of newsportans, was that so many women, so many women
Speaker 1: seeing this could have been me. You know, I could
Speaker 1: have been walking through a dark park at night, which
Speaker 1: is my right, and this could have happened to me.
Speaker 1: This could have been me. And I guess the thing
Speaker 1: I take away from it is that sometimes outrageous even
Speaker 1: though you know what happened to DC was incredibly outraging
Speaker 1: and horrific and tragic. And I think the morning of
Speaker 1: her death. I think that also shows the lack of
Speaker 1: sympathy for people who aren't like the majority can really
Speaker 1: empathize with that because they don't really understand would be
Speaker 1: like to be a national woman in that situation. So
Speaker 1: it relis back to activism being solely around whether it
Speaker 1: would affect ourselves, and I think that's a real problem
Speaker 1: shows just how race impacts this. You know, all women
Speaker 1: experience violence of gailure, but average experience a very specific
Speaker 1: form of violence, and then there's a separate violence and
Speaker 1: acted upon us after death, as we've seen in corn
Speaker 1: j Green with the incredible disrespect and disregard shown towards
Speaker 1: so by the police and the justice system in the
Speaker 1: Northern Territory and also the public because the apathy, I
Speaker 1: think is another form of violence, because it means that
Speaker 1: the next Aboriginal woman who may die, you know, will
Speaker 1: be met with similar apathy, which is the really sad thing.
Speaker 1: I think. I think it's just you know, that line
Speaker 1: this could have been me is actually really problematic. That
Speaker 1: stops us from actually caring about women who are not
Speaker 1: like us or not like the dominant group. I think.
Speaker 2: I think it's an important point you raise, and as
Speaker 2: a country we have to come to terms with the
Speaker 2: deaths of women like Miss Green and Linda and the
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of others. We know that Aboriginal women
Speaker 2: are far more likely to be murdered than any other
Speaker 2: group in our society, and yet despite this, it barely
Speaker 2: raises a mention. But here's something that should be scary
Speaker 2: to everyone, and it's why Aboriginal women, I think, are
Speaker 2: so rightly outraged at the moment and always have been.
Speaker 2: Missus Green's death likely a murder, is not considered in
Speaker 2: the crime statistics or recorded anywhere as a murder. Neither
Speaker 2: are the vasked bulk of deaths of Aboriginal women who
Speaker 2: die from acts of violence. That means that despite the
Speaker 2: figures we know that show that Aboriginal women are many, many,
Speaker 2: many times more likely to die from violence. In fact,
Speaker 2: it's the leading cause of death for young Aboriginal women,
Speaker 2: the problem is without doubt far larger than what the
Speaker 2: statistics reflect, and that is because the police continue to
Speaker 2: bungle these cases. The police also as well as those
Speaker 2: correctional officers who murder Indigenous women like Miss Marr who
Speaker 2: died in New South Wales, are also a violent threat
Speaker 2: to Aboriginal women, and just like Miss Green, miss Marr's
Speaker 2: death is not considered a murder, and it too does
Speaker 2: not go into the statistics. So already we have Aboriginal
Speaker 2: women most likely to be murdered, their leading cause of
Speaker 2: death most likely to be murder, and yet those figures
Speaker 2: are clearly drasticly higher than what are reported. If people
Speaker 2: can't be outraged by this, I don't know what they
Speaker 2: can be outraged by. If people can't understand the frustration,
Speaker 2: the anger, and the grief of Aboriginal women as to
Speaker 2: why this issue is not taken seriously when not only
Speaker 2: are their debts not reported on, they're never invetigated. You
Speaker 2: can be murdered near your home, as Miss Green was,
Speaker 2: and the police do absolutely nothing to bring justice despite
Speaker 2: the alleged perpetrator eyeing next to your body. What greater
Speaker 2: humiliation could there be? People talk about closing the gap,
Speaker 2: How can you close a gap for people who are
Speaker 2: murdered without consequence? If we don't start here, we may
Speaker 2: as well not start at all. I think it's time
Speaker 2: for everyone who is rightly outreached about violence against women
Speaker 2: to not focus purely on the cases that happen in
Speaker 2: their neighborhood, but happen in places away where your eyes
Speaker 2: can't see, but where the deaths are more frequent and
Speaker 2: very rarely, if ever, prosecuted and Martin.
Speaker 1: There's also been another issue in the Northern Territory making
Speaker 1: news this week, and it revolves around the don Dale
Speaker 1: Detention Center, the same detention center which was at the
Speaker 1: center of Four Corners investigation a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: that sparked the Royal Commission which we saw the real
Speaker 1: horrendous display of torture inflicted against Aboriginal children on TV.
Speaker 1: We saw Dylan Balla who was strapped into a Guantanamo
Speaker 1: Bay style restraint in a chair with a spithood put
Speaker 1: onto over his head, and it sparks the Royal Commission,
Speaker 1: and that Royal Commission has since been here down, but
Speaker 1: it just emerged in the Northern Territory. Senate estimates that
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the population in don Dale is Aboriginal.
Speaker 1: So every child who is currently incarcerated in don Dale
Speaker 1: Detention Center in the Northern Territory is Aboriginal. Martin, What
Speaker 1: do you make of that? Does that shock you?
Speaker 2: It honestly doesn't shock me. I think probably more shocking
Speaker 2: or just as shocking, is that we've had a Royal
Speaker 2: Commission into this issue and yet figure remains the same.
Speaker 2: It's actually high and now being one hundred percent, It's
Speaker 2: hovered between basically ninety nine and one hundred percent for
Speaker 2: a period of time. The shocking thing is that when
Speaker 2: we look at other Royal commit've been going on right now,
Speaker 2: to do with the Banking Royal Commission, we've seen CEOs
Speaker 2: of major companies either resign or facing charges. The Royal
Speaker 2: Commission into the Abuse of Children sexual abuse by Religious
Speaker 2: organizations has seen the most senior figure in the Catholic
Speaker 2: Church in Australia be charged and already a number jailed
Speaker 2: and sentenced from the Catholic Church and other religious organizations.
Speaker 2: And yet out of the Royal Commission in the Northern
Speaker 2: Territory we see that not only is the problem as
Speaker 2: bad as it always was, it is possibly worse. And
Speaker 2: I don't want to keep talking about just the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2: I think we need to point out too that in
Speaker 2: Western Australia it is seventy three percent of all children.
Speaker 2: In Queensland it's seventy one percent of all children. It's
Speaker 2: fifty eight percent in South Australia and fifty three percent
Speaker 2: in New South Wales despite being less than two of
Speaker 2: the population. And what we know about these children, hundreds
Speaker 2: and hundreds of children around Australia in juvenile detention, but
Speaker 2: particularly back to the Northern Territory, is that many of
Speaker 2: them were removed from their families to be placed into protection,
Speaker 2: out of home care. When were these now teenagers removed.
Speaker 2: They were removed during the Northern Territory Intervention when they
Speaker 2: were young children, some as young as babies. This intervention
Speaker 2: was supposed to protect women and children. It was an
Speaker 2: intervention that saw the army rolled out onto the land
Speaker 2: of the Northern Territory into Aboriginal communities. The children who
Speaker 2: everyone was jumping up down to protect, children who should
Speaker 2: be protected, are now in one of the worst prisoncilities
Speaker 2: in Australia. You have seen with your own eyes Guantanamo
Speaker 2: style abuse and torture, and yet we've had a Royal
Speaker 2: commission and nothing has been done. An Indigenous deaths in
Speaker 2: custody continue to climb. The Northern Territory is in the
Speaker 2: top four, but by no means leads the way. New
Speaker 2: South Wales is responsible for more deaths in custody than
Speaker 2: any other state, with Western Australia and Queensland following close behind.
Speaker 2: You're starting with young children who are supposedly being rescued
Speaker 2: by the state. It was a political stunt by the
Speaker 2: Howard government, with the media influencing and cheering along the way.
Speaker 2: Those children who should have been protected have ended up
Speaker 2: in Dondale Detention Center where they now make up one
Speaker 2: hundred percent of all detainees. And meanwhile, women that were
Speaker 2: supposed to be protected are still dying like Miss Green
Speaker 2: and are not getting justice, despite the crime scene revealing
Speaker 2: all of the evidence, the alleged pur better being present,
Speaker 2: and the murder weapon being found. What is the point
Speaker 2: of these continual royal commissions if they continue to fail
Speaker 2: Aboriginal people. We don't need an intervention. We definitely don't
Speaker 2: need another Royal commission. What we need is the same
Speaker 2: level of care that is shown for others, the same
Speaker 2: level of outrage that is shown for others, the same
Speaker 2: demands of action, scolding of police and justices who don't
Speaker 2: do their job and fail women and children to occur
Speaker 2: for Aboriginal women and children because they die at far
Speaker 2: higher rates than anyone else in this country and it's
Speaker 2: about time they got justice.
Speaker 1: So madam, what really saddens me listening to you and
Speaker 1: going over the details of these cases in the Northern
Speaker 1: Territory but all across Australia, is that you know, coomen
Speaker 1: Ja Green's death had so many similarities to Linda's death.
Speaker 1: And when we talk about the problem with the overincarceration
Speaker 1: of Aboriginal children and juvenile detention, Kevin Henry was actually
Speaker 1: in juvenile detention as a young toy. So to me,
Speaker 1: it says, you know, this case of Kevin Henry and
Speaker 1: Linda case that we have been profiling and investigating over
Speaker 1: the past two years happened in only one But these
Speaker 1: issues are not just still happening, they're getting worse.
Speaker 2: They are getting worse. And what we're seeing is the
Speaker 2: rate in which Indigenous children are imprisoned and incarcerated like
Speaker 2: Kevin was all those decades ago, has increased. The number
Speaker 2: of deaths and murders of Aboriginal women like Linda and
Speaker 2: now miss Green continues to go up. Neither of these debts,
Speaker 2: decades apart, have ever been solved. There's no justice for
Speaker 2: the families of the victims, and Kevin Henry, like Derek Bromley,
Speaker 2: another Aboriginal man, remains in prison an innocent man. Here
Speaker 2: you have men, women and children, Aboriginal men, when children
Speaker 2: all being failed by the criminal justice system. This is
Speaker 2: why Aboriginal people don't call police. Why would you when
Speaker 2: they lock your children up, allow women to be killed
Speaker 2: with no justice, and beat men into submission until the
Speaker 2: wrong ones are sent to prison. This is a failing
Speaker 2: at all levels. And I want people to think about
Speaker 2: the trauma that then goes on to infect and be
Speaker 2: inflicted upon the communities where this takes place, and it's
Speaker 2: all over Australia. Think about the levels of mental illness
Speaker 2: that must be suffered, the post traumatic stress being or
Speaker 2: witnessing your loved one killed and never getting justice, Being
Speaker 2: a young child removed from your family and then be
Speaker 2: placed somewhere as horrific as Dondale, being in prison for
Speaker 2: more than thirty years for a crime you didn't commit,
Speaker 2: and not only does no one come to help, no
Speaker 2: one seems to care when the rest of society is
Speaker 2: rightly raising the issues of violence against women, the way
Speaker 2: children are treated and misremarkable search for young William Tyrell
Speaker 2: that is being conducted by a fantastic police officer, Gary Jublin.
Speaker 2: What we're asking is that Aboriginal children get the same,
Speaker 2: that Aboriginal women get the same, and that people like
Speaker 2: Kevin get justice. Can't lock people up for crimes they
Speaker 2: didn't commit. It is particularly galling when in the case
Speaker 2: of Miss Green and so many other cases, the evans
Speaker 2: is all there, but so too do the underlying failings exist.
Speaker 2: Just like for Linda, Miss Green didn't have a fixed
Speaker 2: place of address, She had nowhere to sleep, nowhere safe
Speaker 2: to go. Imagine the increased risk that places someone. Miss
Speaker 2: Green had already experienced domestic violence in her life, and
Speaker 2: despite that, police didn't consider that an issue when investigating
Speaker 2: her tragic murder. Police didn't investigate what links that might
Speaker 2: have to the past. No one in this whole process,
Speaker 2: including in the coroner's court, has ever asked a question
Speaker 2: about the undisourcing and housing for ab women and true children,
Speaker 2: not just in the Northern Territory but all over Australia.
Speaker 2: If you don't house people, if you don't give them
Speaker 2: the medical care they need and the very basics of life,
Speaker 2: what does society expect but to see more deaths take place,
Speaker 2: to then know they occur and look the other way
Speaker 2: is the ultimate insult and humiliation to these women and children,
Speaker 2: and it can't be left to stand