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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 2: Families Podcast. It's so good to be able to have

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Speaker 2: a conversation today with doctor Jennifer Finlayson Fife. Now, just

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Speaker 2: before I introduce Jennifer and talk about her work, I

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Speaker 2: do need to let you know that today's conversation is

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Speaker 2: going to be about intimacy and adult relationships. Listener discretion

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Speaker 2: is advised because we will be discussing themes of a

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Speaker 2: sexual nature. So if you've got young ones in the

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Speaker 2: car and you don't think they're quite ready for this conversation,

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Speaker 2: have listen a little bit later. Maybe sit down with

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Speaker 2: your partner and put your headphones in and have a listen.

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Speaker 2: When the kids are not climbing all over you or

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Speaker 2: sitting in the car and saying, what's that about? What

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Speaker 2: are they talking about? Tell me more. Of course, maybe

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Speaker 2: your kids are old enough and this would be a

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Speaker 2: great conversation to have them join you in. But just

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Speaker 2: getting the disclaimer out there now, Doctor Jennifer Finlayson Fife

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Speaker 2: is somebody who I've been listening to on her podcast

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Speaker 2: for I don't Know, like a long long time. Jennifer

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Speaker 2: is a relationship and sexuality educator and coach, as well

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Speaker 2: as a licensed clinical professional counselor with a PhD in

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Speaker 2: Counseling Psychology from Boston College. Jennifer and I share the

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Speaker 2: same religious affiliation. This is not going to be a

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Speaker 2: religious conversation at all. In fact, religion probably won't even

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Speaker 2: come into it, but we do share the same religious affiliation,

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Speaker 2: and her podcast definitely has some religious overtimes. Nevertheless, when

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Speaker 2: it comes to talking about sex and intimacy, there is

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Speaker 2: literally nobody on the planet that I would rather listen to,

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Speaker 2: and I've listened to podcasts and read books from a

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Speaker 2: lot of people on this topic. Jennifer is wise, her

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Speaker 2: ideas are I think profoundly helpful, and when something came

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Speaker 2: up on TikTok just recently, I thought, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: I've always wanted to talk to Jennifer about anything intimacy related,

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Speaker 2: and this is my chance. So Jennifer, welcome to the

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Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast. Thank you so much for honoring me

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Speaker 2: with you all presents. I'm just thrilled to have you here.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. I'm very glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna stop by playing this TikTok, and then I

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Speaker 2: want to ask you a couple of questions about it.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I really try to process now

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Speaker 1: as a middle aged man is the full extent to

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Speaker 1: which I really thought that I was the main character.

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Speaker 1: Let's give you an example. Early in our marriage, my

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Speaker 1: partner and I, say would be going on a trip.

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Speaker 1: My partner at that point in time would be doing

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Speaker 1: the laundry vacuum in the house, making sure the dishes

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Speaker 1: were done, and I would think. I would literally think like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to do that, Like that's you wanting

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Speaker 1: to do that, It's not what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: Gee g everything ready, And eventually I would say, oh,

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Speaker 1: now it's time to get ready, and I would go.

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Speaker 1: And this is not a joke. This literally happened on

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Speaker 1: more than one occasion. I would get like a backpack

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Speaker 1: or a suitcase or something, and I would get my

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Speaker 1: own clothes, and then I would get like two or

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Speaker 1: three books that I wanted to read, and I would

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Speaker 1: literally bring highlighters because I'm a nerd and I think

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Speaker 1: I'm ready.

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Speaker 3: I'm ready to go on the trip. Looking back with

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Speaker 3: what what? How can I possibly think that was okay?

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Speaker 3: And the thing is, when we had kids that didn't

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Speaker 3: stop right. My partner would do all the work to

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Speaker 3: get all of them ready, to make sure they were bathed,

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Speaker 3: snacks packed, and I would get myself ready. I think, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I saw my own father do this quite a bit,

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Speaker 3: where he would take care of his own needs. So

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Speaker 3: I know I didn't learn it from nowhere, but I

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Speaker 3: also had to unlearn it because it never was okay.

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Speaker 3: I thought that my role was to do all these

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Speaker 3: things outside of the home, and that the home was,

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Speaker 3: you know, woman's domain.

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Speaker 1: I saw that modeled and even taught as the way

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Speaker 1: it should be. But oh my gosh, is that not

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Speaker 1: a partnership. And that sucks. So if you are a person,

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Speaker 1: especially if you're a man, and you think that division

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Speaker 1: of labor is okay, like you you shouldn't be married,

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Speaker 1: like you shouldn't be in a relationship, and I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been at that point in time, And that would

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Speaker 1: have made me so very mad because I was like,

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Speaker 1: what more do you want from me? Turns out quite

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: So, Jennifer, this TikTok is very much about shared responsibilities

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Speaker 2: in the home cognitive load, domestic physical load, before we

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Speaker 2: talk about the intimacy stuff. When you hear Jay Fishers

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Speaker 2: sixty two on TikTok saying what he's saying, what's your

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Speaker 2: instant response, your reaction as somebody who works with couples

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Speaker 2: all the time, like, is this a common issue?

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's a very very common issue, especially when couples

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Speaker 4: have been enculturated into different ideas about who's responsible for what.

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Speaker 4: And a lot of couples who come from a traditional

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Speaker 4: background or watch their own parents often internalize the idea

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Speaker 4: that dad is the main show and mom is the

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Speaker 4: backup staff, and that that's what it is to be

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Speaker 4: a good man and a good woman. And in a

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Speaker 4: time when men were the ones out in the workforce

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Speaker 4: and women were rearing children in the home, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think some of that role ideology was valuable, perhaps

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Speaker 4: but or at least more on point. But in our

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Speaker 4: current culture, when people are shifting their notions of marriage

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Speaker 4: to be more all companion it, more collaborative, I think

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Speaker 4: that's a higher version of marriage, but one that requires

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Speaker 4: often pushing into areas that they didn't see their parents'

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Speaker 4: role model and thinking about what does it mean for

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Speaker 4: us to actually create something collaborative and fair, And it's

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Speaker 4: often linked to good sexual relationships.

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Speaker 2: I want to dive into that in just a sec

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Speaker 2: But first of all, I wish Kylie was here to

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Speaker 2: have this conversation with us, because she would be nodding

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Speaker 2: her head and maybe even getting a little bit frustrated

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Speaker 2: with me, because I mean, I think that I contribute

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Speaker 2: pretty well around the house, but in deference to her

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Speaker 2: not being here and imagining what she would say when

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Speaker 2: it comes to packing bags for a trip, which is

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Speaker 2: the example that comes out of the TikTok, I'm really

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Speaker 2: good at getting myself organized, and then I'm really good

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Speaker 2: at shepherding children to room so that Kylie can do

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Speaker 2: the work with them. And because we have six children,

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Speaker 2: there's always another bag for me to pick up and

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Speaker 2: go and stack into the into the rear of the car,

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Speaker 2: And so I kind of feel like I'm fulfilling my

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Speaker 2: duties by packing my stuff and then shoving all the

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Speaker 2: bags into the car and doing the Tetris the jigsaw puzzle.

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Speaker 2: But my conscience was pricked a little bit as I

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Speaker 2: listened about because I know that I've got a blind spot.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's not such a blind spot. I know that

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Speaker 2: I'm definitely missing. I feel like I'm still contributing. But

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Speaker 2: does it usually break down with a male female gender

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Speaker 2: split the way that he described it? Is it usually

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Speaker 2: the guy who's I guess, should I use the word loafing?

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Speaker 4: M Well, it's interesting, so it is often the guy

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Speaker 4: that's loafing in this way. There's two different issues here.

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Speaker 4: There is the issue of differences and role division and

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Speaker 4: specialization within a family and a home, and sometimes it

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Speaker 4: means that given specialization, one is going to do more

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Speaker 4: of the load than the other.

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Speaker 2: Great, So I don't know where all the kids keepe

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Speaker 2: their clothes because I'm not involved in the laundry. So

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Speaker 2: it's just it's inefficient for me to be in there

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Speaker 2: trying to pack their clothes exactly. Okay.

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Speaker 4: And then there's the issue, which can be completely separate,

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Speaker 4: of taking advantage of the other or entitlement. And this

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Speaker 4: isn't it's not just men that take advantage or are entitled.

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Speaker 4: Women can do it also. Okay, humans are human after all,

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Speaker 4: but there can be a way in which culturally we've

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Speaker 4: been taught a certain kind of entitlement or overfunctioning for

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Speaker 4: women in some of these domains, that just is plain unfair.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's important to kind of make a

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Speaker 4: distinction between what is separation of tasks and specialization versus

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Speaker 4: one is actually working harder, doing more, carrying more of

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Speaker 4: the load, and the other can just kind of act

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Speaker 4: dumb and get away with it. Okay, And I see

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Speaker 4: women do this, okay, you know, in different domains sometimes,

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Speaker 4: but it's never good to take advantage in a marriage.

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Speaker 4: On the other hand, it's okay to recognize, Look, this

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Speaker 4: isn't my partner's strength, this is my strength or vice versa.

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Speaker 4: But you're doing what you can to truly carry the

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Speaker 4: load and make sure no one is really that you're

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Speaker 4: not unequally yoked. Ultimately, I love this.

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Speaker 2: You've made me feel a whole lot better about the

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Speaker 2: decisions that I've made. I feel like my conscience is clear.

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Speaker 2: Let's bring this into the intimate realm. Okay. So what

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Speaker 2: do we see in terms of different approaches to intimacy

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Speaker 2: in the bedroom? Somebody thinking that they're the main show,

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Speaker 2: Somebody thinking that somebody their partner is just there to

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Speaker 2: satisfy and serve them. Is this a common issue? And

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Speaker 2: what do we do about it if it's occurring in

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Speaker 2: our relationship.

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Speaker 4: It's a pretty common issue in the population I work with,

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Speaker 4: in part because of again going back to the way

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Speaker 4: that many us have been socialized. So some of the

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Speaker 4: culture is this idea that you know, men are the providers,

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Speaker 4: going back to this kind of division of labor and

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Speaker 4: women are the supporters and the child rearers and so on,

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Speaker 4: which can make it easy. This is outside of the

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Speaker 4: intimacy realm for a moment, but it can make it

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Speaker 4: easy to take advantage. You know, I've had a long day,

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Speaker 4: she does the kids stuff. I'm just going to get

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Speaker 4: my own bag packed, okay, And so it's actually taking advantage,

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Speaker 4: but the narratives you've inherited make it easy to do that.

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Speaker 4: Another version of this that has been common for me,

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Speaker 4: and it's some of the dissertation work that I did,

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Speaker 4: is that men and women inherit ideas about what it

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Speaker 4: is to be sexual and what makes sexuality legitimate. And

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Speaker 4: this isn't just a religious ideas. This can be in

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Speaker 4: the culture at large, that men are naturally sexual and

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Speaker 4: women are less so. Right, and if a woman is

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Speaker 4: going to not be cheated on, if a man is

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Speaker 4: going to stay, she needs to produce sexually, she needs

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Speaker 4: to satisfy his needs. And so I've had a lot

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Speaker 4: of clients who had a parent, a mother pulled them

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Speaker 4: aside on their wedding night, for example, and say, don't

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Speaker 4: ever turn him down, don't ever say no if you

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Speaker 4: want to keep him around. Now, this is an idea

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Speaker 4: that quickly quickly kills what most people want in a marriage,

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Speaker 4: which is to feel desired in a sense of passion,

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Speaker 4: because it squarely puts sex in the realm of work

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Speaker 4: for a woman. And it's the idea that his sexual

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Speaker 4: desires matter more than my sexual desires, knowing what he

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Speaker 4: thinks in wants, he's the reference point in sex, not

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Speaker 4: the two of us or what we collectively want, or

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Speaker 4: what would be mutually satisfying for the two of us.

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Speaker 4: And so a lot of people have taught yet around

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Speaker 4: sex the man is the main show and woman is

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Speaker 4: there to satisfy his needs, back him up. But the problem,

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Speaker 4: of course, is that desire breaks down very quickly when

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Speaker 4: it's work rather than play, when it's a job to do,

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Speaker 4: rather than an expression of passion, desire, love, intimacy, and

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Speaker 4: so we often in that inequality create the high and

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Speaker 4: low desire tensions that a lot of couples come into

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Speaker 4: my office trying to solve.

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Speaker 2: On high and low desire. Is it reasonable to say, certainly,

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Speaker 2: it's a cultural expectation. It's a societal expectation that men

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Speaker 2: will be high desire and women will be low desired. Now,

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Speaker 2: to me, that's incredibly reductionist. There must be enormous over

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Speaker 2: lack of distributions. But even as you age and mature,

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Speaker 2: those that have to be a desire curve, right, It's

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Speaker 2: higher when you're younger and it drops off when you

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Speaker 2: get older, or maybe different people peak at different times.

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Speaker 2: Can you just talk about the difference in desire trajectories

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Speaker 2: and whether there is really a gendered breakdown or whether

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Speaker 2: that is a societal thing.

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Speaker 4: I think it is a societal thing, but I also

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Speaker 4: think it's a biological thing. And what I mean by

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Speaker 4: that is, I actually think women have as much, it's

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Speaker 4: not more sexual capacity than men do, but they don't

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Speaker 4: feel desire in the body as readily and as frequently

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Speaker 4: as men do. Men have a lot of testosterone, and

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Speaker 4: testosterone is part of men's having what feel like spontaneous

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Speaker 4: sexual thoughts. More than women have what would be described

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Speaker 4: as spontaneous sexual thoughts. However, women are erotic creatures. That

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Speaker 4: is that they are sensual and they are picking up

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Speaker 4: on erotic cues in their environment. So women's bodies are

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Speaker 4: responding and arousing more than people realize. But women are

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Speaker 4: picky about their sexuality and there's a lot of psychobiological

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Speaker 4: reasons for that because it's more costly for a woman

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Speaker 4: to be sexual. Right, you get pregnant, and until recently,

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Speaker 4: getting pregnant was often a death sentence. Right you then

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Speaker 4: have to rear that child for twenty years and so

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Speaker 4: meaning women were much slower to engage their have been

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Speaker 4: much slower to engage their sexuality because the cost to

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Speaker 4: them is much higher. But when women determine that this

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Speaker 4: is a good choice, right, I like this person, I

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Speaker 4: like being close to him, I feel secure about my

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Speaker 4: reproductive meaning I don't I either want to have a

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Speaker 4: child and so I'm comfortable, or I don't want to

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Speaker 4: have a child and I'm not going to get pregnant.

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Speaker 4: If I am sexual, then women's desire can really skyrocket

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Speaker 4: and women can actually have much more sexual response than men.

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Speaker 4: So that is when a woman determines that this is

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Speaker 4: a good place for her to be sexual. Well, then

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Speaker 4: she can have longer, more intense orgasm. She can orgasm

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Speaker 4: multiple times, right, And so it's just that if you

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Speaker 4: take the first seven minutes for example, Okay, men can

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Speaker 4: look like champs and women can look defective, but it

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Speaker 4: masks the actual capacity and the environment in which women's

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Speaker 4: sexuality thrives. And if you tell a woman her sexuality

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Speaker 4: is there to back up a man, that is precisely

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Speaker 4: empathetical to women's arousal patterns. Women do not want caregiving

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Speaker 4: and sexuality to go together. And so when a woman's

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Speaker 4: taking care of a man, it's more in the maternal frame,

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Speaker 4: and that does not arouse her. If she is able

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Speaker 4: to surrender into pleasure, take care of no one, allow

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Speaker 4: herself to be taken care of, you know, to feel

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Speaker 4: that she can be free there, free to be herself,

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Speaker 4: to feel desirable and be confident in her own skin. Well,

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Speaker 4: then those are the conditions of high desire. But they're

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Speaker 4: often and the opposite of what many of us have

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Speaker 4: been taught. Right, women have been taught is selfless, forsake yourself,

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Speaker 4: forsake your desires, don't wear that cover up don't do it,

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Speaker 4: and so a lot of the messaging is actually precisely

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Speaker 4: what undermined, what undermines the conditions in which women's sexuality thrives.

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Speaker 2: As you've spoken, Jennifer, I've made notes on about seventeen

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Speaker 2: different things that you're talking about that I want to follow.

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Speaker 2: All of these different threads. We don't have the capacity

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Speaker 2: to follow them all, but I sense that there's a

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Speaker 2: broader question that I wanted to ask you about a

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Speaker 2: study that was conducted a number of years ago now,

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Speaker 2: and it might bring in a lot of these threads together.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to monologue for about a minute and

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Speaker 2: a half as I sort of explain what the study

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Speaker 2: was and then try to bring the threads together into

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Speaker 2: a cohesive direction for you to go down. Some years ago,

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Speaker 2: in the quite prestigious journal Nature, there was a study

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Speaker 2: that showed that when people are attending to what they're doing,

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Speaker 2: their well being is higher than when their mind is

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Speaker 2: on something else, so something that they're not doing. So

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Speaker 2: for example, if I'm I don't know if I'm walking

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Speaker 2: my dog, but I'm thinking about the long launder list

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Speaker 2: of all the things that I have to do when

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Speaker 2: I get back to the office, I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: enjoy the walk with the dog as much as I

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Speaker 2: will if I'm just thinking about my walk with the dog.

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Speaker 2: So I was running a presentation some years ago with

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Speaker 2: a group of women in an all girls' school leadership group.

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Speaker 2: I told them about that study, and I said, if

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Speaker 2: you would imagine, what do you think was at the

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Speaker 2: top of the list, Like, what were the top five

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Speaker 2: things that people are actually doing and they're thinking about

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Speaker 2: them while they're doing And so they guess things like eating.

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Speaker 2: There's not a lot of evidence to suggest that we

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Speaker 2: think about what we're eating when we're eating. We just

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Speaker 2: kind of shovel the calories in. They talked about having

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Speaker 2: conversation with friends that was actually quite high on the list.

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Speaker 2: But no matter how I mean, this conversation went on

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Speaker 2: for a good five minutes. They couldn't work out what

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Speaker 2: the top couple of things were. And when I finally

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Speaker 2: told them that intimacy sexual intimacy topped the list, that is,

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Speaker 2: people are thinking about it while they're doing it, they

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Speaker 2: were literally dumbfounded. So, as I'm thinking about the things

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Speaker 2: you're describing the fact that eroticism is reduced when he

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Speaker 2: thinks he's the main show. Eroticism is also less likely

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Speaker 2: to occur when she feels like she's they're doing domestic

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Speaker 2: duties to satisfy him. And obviously this is very much

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Speaker 2: a male female context we're describing. With the male thinking

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Speaker 2: he's the main show. I mean, we've set it up

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Speaker 2: that way with the Jay Fisher sixty two TikTok.

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Speaker 3: Even hearing you.

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Speaker 2: Talk about that first seven minutes. Sexually, she's a failure

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Speaker 2: in the first seven minutes, whereas he's ready to say

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Speaker 2: the party's over, like when this was great. This spontaneous

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Speaker 2: desire versus a responsive desire that you've described, all of

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Speaker 2: that feels like it. It fits well with the response

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Speaker 2: that these women leaders in this all girls school. It

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Speaker 2: seems to me that that helps explain why they were

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Speaker 2: so shocked. And I guess what I'm curious about is

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Speaker 2: where do we go from here? How do we help

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Speaker 2: anyone who's listening to this podcast. To make sure that

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Speaker 2: there's number one, that there's more than seven minutes, but

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Speaker 2: number two, to make sure that when I tell people

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Speaker 2: about a study like this and tell them that intimacy

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Speaker 2: top the list, that women respond with an enthusiastic. Of

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Speaker 2: course it tops the list. Where would it be other

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Speaker 2: than at the top of the list, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I've got a couple of thoughts. So, first

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Speaker 4: of all, I that's very interesting, so that the idea

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Speaker 4: was when we're being sexual, that we're thinking about being sexual,

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Speaker 4: which is part of the pleasure that we're in the moment.

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Speaker 4: You know, We're not if we're having good sex, thinking

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Speaker 4: about the laundry list of things we need to be doing,

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Speaker 4: or you know, does he think I put weight on

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Speaker 4: my thighs. We're not getting anxious about things. We are

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Speaker 4: in our own experience and enjoying that pleasure and that

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Speaker 4: connection in that immediate sense when sex is good, exactly right.

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Speaker 4: And I think what might be the surprise in the

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Speaker 4: audience was that I think a lot of women because

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Speaker 4: I do a lot of work with women themselves on

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Speaker 4: you know, I teach a course called the Art of

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Speaker 4: Desire because it's kind of antithetical to how many women

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Speaker 4: have been taught. I'm not it's selfish. If I let

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Speaker 4: myself just move into my pleasure, I should be thinking

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Speaker 4: about his feelings, his needs, his ego. Does he feel

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Speaker 4: like a man. A lot of women will be like,

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Speaker 4: I need to orgasm so he feels good, you see,

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Speaker 4: and they put it into some kind of a pressured reality,

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Speaker 4: which then means they're not in their experience. They're outside

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Speaker 4: of their experience, trying to get the experience to be

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Speaker 4: the right experience, which is antithetical to the transcendence that's

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Speaker 4: a part of really good sexuality. And so a lot

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Speaker 4: of times women in particular need to understand the virtue

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Speaker 4: of desire, the virtue of pleasure, of the ability to

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Speaker 4: believe in your own worthiness enough to surrender into in

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Speaker 4: a way being taken care of sexually. This is really

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Speaker 4: when sexuality is working at its best. In most heterosexual relationships,

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Speaker 4: a man loves giving to his partner. That is part

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Speaker 4: of his sexual pleasure, is to literally bless and love

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Speaker 4: through his sexuality. We're often not taught that idea.

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Speaker 2: How do you get past that rush or the ten

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Speaker 2: PM where exhausted, let's just get it over with. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you use the seven minute example before, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's perfect here. I'm sure that there are a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of couples who are out there where she rolls

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Speaker 2: her eyes and says, okay, fine, get it done and

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Speaker 2: seven minutes later, they're both sort of in the botroom

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Speaker 2: place up and getting ready to hit.

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Speaker 4: I think, just like one of the worst things you

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Speaker 4: can do to your relationship, I really do, because it

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Speaker 4: turns it into I will tolerate you for seven minutes.

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Speaker 4: Men who feel tolerated offen may only take two minutes

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Speaker 4: because the anxiety of feeling just tolerated, right, and you

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Speaker 4: feel your wife resents, your presence doesn't really want you there.

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Speaker 4: Your anxiety tends to be higher, your sexual performance tends

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Speaker 4: to be lower because of that anxiety, and you create

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Speaker 4: resentment on both sides. Right, The man resents like, why

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Speaker 4: why can't I You know, I just want to have sex.

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Speaker 4: I want to be with you. Why do you resent

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Speaker 4: me so much? You know, also may feel anxious or like,

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Speaker 4: you know, what's the matter that my body is? I

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Speaker 4: don't feel in control of my body's response. The woman

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Speaker 4: feels resented because you know what, sex isn't about me.

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Speaker 4: You say you want to be with me, but obviously

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Speaker 4: even when I'm checked out, you'll still move forward. So

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Speaker 4: that's proof positive it's not about me. And so what

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Speaker 4: happens is people will co create a really bad resentment

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Speaker 4: in doing sexual relationship when they allow that sense of

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Speaker 4: I'll take anything, I'll take something's better than nothing mentality,

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Speaker 4: when in fact, no, that kind of something is worse

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Speaker 4: than nothing.

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Speaker 2: So many more questions for us to discuss as we

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Speaker 2: talk about the secret life the Secret sex Life of

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Speaker 2: Busy Parents with Jennifer Finlayson Fife. Jennifer Finlayson Fife is

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Speaker 2: a licensed clinical professional counselor, relationship and sexuality educator with

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Speaker 2: a PhD in Counseling Psychology from Boston College. You can

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Speaker 2: find more about her at Finlayson hyphen Fife. That's Finlayson

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Speaker 2: Hyphenfife dot com, Finlayson hyphenfif dot com. Will Lincoln in

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Speaker 2: the show notes, as well as her two podcasts and

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Speaker 2: her free course ten Minutes That Are Killing Your Sex Life.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. More next

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Speaker 2: week on The Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 4: H