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Speaker 1: Kevin Hogan.

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Speaker 2: Our office has been flooded, so.

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Speaker 1: All phone calls will go both to an email, but

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Speaker 1: please leave a message and we'll get back to you

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Speaker 1: as soon as we can.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: From the Daily Os. I'm believe it's Simon's and this

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Speaker 1: is no silly questions. This is the podcast where we

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Speaker 1: break down the big issues for young people. In the

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Speaker 1: lead up to the federal election. A few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: parts of Queensland and New South Wales experienced some of

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Speaker 1: the worst floods this country has ever seen. Thousands of

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Speaker 1: homes were destroyed and businesses, many already struggling from the

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Speaker 1: impacts of the pandemic, were destroyed. Entire towns were submerged underwater,

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Speaker 1: and at least twenty two people were killed. And it

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Speaker 1: all happened just two years after the worst bushfire season

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Speaker 1: Australia has ever seen. Experts not just in Australia but

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Speaker 1: across the globe say the increased severity and frequency of

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Speaker 1: these natural disasters are a result of climate change. So

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Speaker 1: the question I want to explore today is what is

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Speaker 1: the government doing about it? But before we get there,

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Speaker 1: I want to briefly look at what unfolded in the

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Speaker 1: most recent flood crisis.

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Speaker 3: Good evening.

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Speaker 4: Hundreds of homes are flooded tonight and of power in

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Speaker 4: the CBD could be cut for days.

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Speaker 5: As this deadly rain bomb bears down on the southeast, some.

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Speaker 6: Towns and cities are experiencing record breaking rainfall, the worst

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Speaker 6: in half a century.

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Speaker 5: It's hard to comprehend the sheer scale of this flooding disaster.

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Speaker 3: Entire towns underwater.

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Speaker 4: We've seen people are stranded on roofs for hours.

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Speaker 5: We've seen children being rescued.

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Speaker 3: We're seeing people stranded on bridges.

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Speaker 2: No one expected it to get to those levels, and

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Speaker 2: so what we're dealing with here is an extraordia event.

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Speaker 2: Australia is becoming a harder country to live in.

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Speaker 1: One of the worst affected areas was a town called Lismore.

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Speaker 1: It has a population of around thirty thousand and is

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Speaker 1: in the Northern Rivers area in New South Wales. Late

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Speaker 1: on the night of the twenty seventh of February, a Sunday,

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Speaker 1: residents were issued as severe weather and flood warning. Many

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Speaker 1: residents believed they still had time to leave, but by

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Speaker 1: Monday morning, the town had woken to its worst ever

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Speaker 1: flood crisis. I spoke to Jess Hayes.

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Speaker 4: My name's Jess Scott Hayes and i live in northern

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Speaker 4: New South Wales and I've lived here for about five

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Speaker 4: years now.

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Speaker 1: She's a resident of the New South Wales Northern Rivers

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Speaker 1: and she organized one of the petitions that called for

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Speaker 1: more government action.

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Speaker 4: It came out of nowhere. There was a warning that

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Speaker 4: went out around two am and people woke up to

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Speaker 4: the floods sort of in their households around four to

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Speaker 4: six in the morning, when it was still dark.

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Speaker 3: They just woke up and were either.

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Speaker 4: Trapped in the attics of their houses or had to

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Speaker 4: climb onto their roofs.

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Speaker 1: Shops, schools and homes were underwater. After the flood levee

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Speaker 1: was breached, the water level of the Wilsons River surpassed

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Speaker 1: fourteen meters, which is two meters higher than the town's

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Speaker 1: previous record. As a journalist, I've spoken to a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who were affected by the floods, and the

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Speaker 1: one thing they all say is that it was the

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Speaker 1: community's response to the floods that saved so many lives.

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Speaker 4: On the Monday, everyone was trapped and there was some

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Speaker 4: sees people going out and trying to save people, but

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Speaker 4: they were also told by officials that.

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Speaker 3: It was too dangerous to save people.

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Speaker 4: So the community went out in sort of small tinney boats, surfboards,

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Speaker 4: jet skis, paddle boards and were pulling people, children, animals

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Speaker 4: off roofs of houses, sort of breaking in through atticts,

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Speaker 4: trying to get people to high ground or safety.

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Speaker 1: Jess was herself one of the people who was going

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Speaker 1: into people's houses and asking how she could help.

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Speaker 3: It's strange.

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Speaker 4: You don't often walk into someone's house uninvited and ask

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Speaker 4: if they need help. It's not often that you go

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Speaker 4: into someone's house and and you're clearing out their whole lives,

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Speaker 4: photo albums, memories from their childhood and their family, and

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Speaker 4: I think stripping all of that out and just seeing

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Speaker 4: people sort of collapse and cry.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of trauma and emotion and a lot

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Speaker 3: of damage.

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Speaker 4: That's come from this, and children and animals, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's really hard to.

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Speaker 3: Put into words what you see on the ground.

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Speaker 4: And I think after seeing that and seeing people have

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Speaker 4: just lost absolutely everything with no warning, that was sort

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Speaker 4: of a bringing alarm.

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Speaker 3: Balls in my head.

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Speaker 1: It was as Jess was going into these homes that

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Speaker 1: she realized the lack of support from the government on

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Speaker 1: the ground.

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Speaker 4: I think on the Thursday or Friday, it would have

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Speaker 4: been day four or five since the flood's happening.

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Speaker 3: There was no communication.

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Speaker 4: From people on the grounds with any government officials. The

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Speaker 4: only people in uniform were the sees, and it was

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Speaker 4: very minimal people there.

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Speaker 3: And on the.

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Speaker 4: Thursday night I was lucky enough to have service and

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Speaker 4: be somewhere where I could communicate it. After being in

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Speaker 4: the mardens and the waters, I started to realize that there.

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Speaker 3: Was no action, I suppose at all from the government.

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Speaker 1: So what is the role of the federal government when

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Speaker 1: it comes to natural disasters. I'll first point out that

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Speaker 1: as the Constitution is set out, most of the basic

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Speaker 1: powers for responding to a natural disaster is with the states.

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Speaker 1: For example, the state governments operate state emergency services, but

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Speaker 1: the federal government does still have certain powers, which is

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Speaker 1: what I want to focus on today. The federal government

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Speaker 1: operates the army and is responsible for responding to external

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Speaker 1: threats like a foreign attack, but the Constitution limits the

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Speaker 1: ability to use the army for non defense purposes inside

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Speaker 1: Australia without the state's permission. Then, after the twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: and twenty twenty bushfires, the federal government's powers were extended

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Speaker 1: to allow it to declare a national emergency, which gives

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Speaker 1: the federal government more scope to decide where and how

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Speaker 1: to deploy troops without the state government's direction. As the

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Speaker 1: most recent flood crisis went on and on, residents became

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Speaker 1: increasingly frustrated by the fact that no national emergency had

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Speaker 1: been called.

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Speaker 4: And on day four or five of a humanitarian crisis,

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Speaker 4: it was just unbelievable to see that that hadn't happened yet.

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Speaker 1: So in the early hours of one morning it Jess

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Speaker 1: decided to start a petition.

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Speaker 3: I think it was around three or four in the

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Speaker 3: morning on Friday morning.

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Speaker 4: And then around eight o'clock Saloney, who's the head campaigner

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Speaker 4: of Change, called me and she said she and Change

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Speaker 4: would love to get behind the petition and sent it

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Speaker 4: out to their database. Last time I checked, there was

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Speaker 4: fifty five thousand signatures on there.

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Speaker 3: Which is amazing.

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Speaker 4: And then around I think the second week of the floods,

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Speaker 4: we had a visit from the Prime Minister Scott Morrison

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Speaker 4: and he announced there'll be a declaration of enough national emergency.

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Speaker 7: For PM today toured some of the worst hit regents,

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Speaker 7: confirming he'll declare the disaster a national emergency. Announced my

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Speaker 7: intention to recommend to the Government the General a national

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Speaker 7: emergency declaration for having the severe weather and flooding events

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Speaker 7: across both New South Wales and Queensland, to ensure all

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Speaker 7: our emergency powers are available and that we cut through

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Speaker 7: any red tape that might be faced.

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Speaker 2: That's the principal purpose of that declaration.

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Speaker 7: Scott Morrison made the announcement two weeks after the crisis

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Speaker 7: began in Queensland and ten days after it submerged in

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Speaker 7: all then New South Wales city of Lismore.

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Speaker 4: When Scott Morrison came to Lismore, people were really angry

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Speaker 4: with Scott Morrison and the government.

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Speaker 3: It was too late.

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Speaker 1: Let's look further at what national emergency actually is. After

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Speaker 1: the Black Summer bush fires, there was a Royal Commission

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Speaker 1: into Natural Disasters and just quickly. A Royal commission is

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Speaker 1: an investigation into an important matter that is run independently

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Speaker 1: of the government. Its purpose is to make recommendations to

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Speaker 1: the government about what needs to change. One of the

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Speaker 1: recommendations that came out of this Royal Commission was for

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Speaker 1: the Federal government to create a law that would allow

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Speaker 1: it to declare a state of national emergency. It essentially

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Speaker 1: allows the federal government to play a larger role in

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Speaker 1: the response to natural disasters, and a Scott Morrison has said,

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Speaker 1: removes the red tape between state and federal governments. So

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Speaker 1: for example, the federal government can deploy the Australian Defense

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Speaker 1: Force even if that hasn't been requested by a state government. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you've listened to this podcast before, you'll know that

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Speaker 1: I usually try to interview a politician on either side

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Speaker 1: of politics, and we're really committed to hearing the perspectives

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Speaker 1: of all sides of politics. So for this episode, I

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Speaker 1: reached out to the office of Senator Bridget Mackenzie, who

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Speaker 1: is the Minister for Emergency Management and National Recovery and Resilience.

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Speaker 1: She's the person who Prime Minister Scott Morrison has specifically

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Speaker 1: put in charge to manage the government's response to natural disasters,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't hear back. I also reached out to

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Speaker 1: the Environment Minister Susan Lee's office as well as the

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Speaker 1: Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce, but I didn't hear back

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Speaker 1: from either. I also reached out to Kevin Hogan, he's

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Speaker 1: the local member for Page, which includes the area of Lismo.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't available either. In terms of speaking to the opposition.

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Speaker 1: That was perhaps understandably a little easier. I spoke to

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Speaker 1: Murray What.

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Speaker 5: My name is Murray What. I'm one of Queensland's three

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Speaker 5: Labor senators. What's probably most topical is that I'm the

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Speaker 5: Shadow Minister for Disaster Management for Labor and unfortunately for

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Speaker 5: the country, that's turned into a pretty big role because

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Speaker 5: we have had so many natural disasters in recent years.

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Speaker 1: As he said there, he's the shadow Minister for Natural

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Speaker 1: disaster and emergency matter. So if Labor wins the next election,

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Speaker 1: and presuming he keeps his portfolio, it will be his

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Speaker 1: job to manage the response to natural disasters and to

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Speaker 1: prepare for future ones. He also says the government's response

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Speaker 1: was too slow.

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Speaker 5: Unfortunately, I would have to say, and I think most

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Speaker 5: people who've been watching this agree that the federal government

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Speaker 5: was incredibly slow to respond to these floods and remains

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Speaker 5: really slow when it comes to the recovery. And I

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Speaker 5: think the thing that's most angered people about that is

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Speaker 5: that it feels like a rerun of the bushfires that

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Speaker 5: we saw a couple of years. I think that's what's

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Speaker 5: angered people with these floods is that it's happened all

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Speaker 5: over again. And I think Australians are a pretty forgiving

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Speaker 5: group of people, especially of their politicians. They understand that

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Speaker 5: people make mistakes, but to do pretty much the entire

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Speaker 5: thing all over again, I think people are just shaking

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Speaker 5: their heads wondering what's going on.

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Speaker 1: When Scott Morrison was asked during a press conference in

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Speaker 1: March about the length of time it took him to

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Speaker 1: declare a national emergency, he didn't agree that the government

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Speaker 1: was slow in doing so.

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Speaker 2: Emergency it take so long, Well, I don't think it

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Speaker 2: has taken long, and I don't think it. I mean

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Speaker 2: we're following the process that is required for such a

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Speaker 2: declaration and so you know, as yet we still haven't

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Speaker 2: received a formal recommendation from either of those states, and

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Speaker 2: that's why I've taken the initiative to request such a

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Speaker 2: direction or a recommendation and I look forward that to

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Speaker 2: be completed.

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Speaker 3: Over the course of the week.

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Speaker 2: Because the nature of the disaster over a week ago

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Speaker 2: was different to what it has emerged over the last week.

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Speaker 1: Another option the government has available to help its response

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Speaker 1: to natural disasters is the Emergency Response Fund, which is

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Speaker 1: a nearly five billion dollar fund that was set up

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Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. It allows the federal government to draw

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Speaker 1: up to two hundred million dollars in any given year

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Speaker 1: beyond what is already available to fund natural disaster, emergency

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Speaker 1: response and disaster recovery and preparedness. Early on in the flood,

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Speaker 1: the government was criticized by labor politicians, including Murray Watt,

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Speaker 1: for not using this funding when the crisis happened.

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Speaker 5: When it comes to disaster management, what we've said is

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Speaker 5: that we will invest up to two hundred million dollars

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Speaker 5: a year in disaster readiness, and the way we'll do

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Speaker 5: that is by using a fund that Scott Morrison set

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Speaker 5: up about three years ago. It's called the Emergency Response Fund.

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Speaker 5: It was established in twenty nineteen before the Black Summer

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Speaker 5: bush fires and we thought it was a good idea,

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Speaker 5: so we voted for it as well as the government.

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Speaker 5: And what it was supposed to do was basically invest

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Speaker 5: about four billion dollars that the government had set aside

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Speaker 5: and used the proceeds of those investments every year to

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Speaker 5: pay for disaster recovery and disaster what's called disaster mitigation,

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Speaker 5: So things like flood levees, bushfire evacuation centers, cyclone shelters,

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Speaker 5: the sort of things that helped keep people safe in

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Speaker 5: a disaster. But we've now got to a point where

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Speaker 5: three disaster seasons have passed since that fund was established,

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Speaker 5: and it hasn't spent a cent on disaster recovery, and

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Speaker 5: it hasn't even started building a single disaster mitigation project.

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Speaker 1: I will just say that this is not entirely accurate.

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Speaker 1: The federal government did actually eventually announce it would use

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Speaker 1: this fund to help the response to the most recent

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Speaker 1: flood crisis. On March eighteen, so nearly three weeks after

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Speaker 1: the flood started, the federal government said it would use

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty million dollars from the Emergency Response

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Speaker 1: Fund to help flood affected communities in New South Wales

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Speaker 1: and Queensland. Okay, so that's responding to a natural disaster,

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Speaker 1: But what about preparing for one? Marie Watt says the

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Speaker 1: Labor Party would turn the Emergency Response Fund into a

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Speaker 1: disaster readiness fund.

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Speaker 5: So what Albo said our leader in January when he

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Speaker 5: was in Queensland is that we'd really revamp that fund

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Speaker 5: that the government's got and turn it into a permanent,

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Speaker 5: ongoing disaster readiness fund that could be used to build

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Speaker 5: those things like flood levees, drainage systems, bush fire evacuation centers,

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Speaker 5: better telecommunications because they always go down during fires and

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Speaker 5: floods and makes it hard for people to get information. So,

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Speaker 5: you know, the bottom line is that Labor thinks that

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Speaker 5: we've got to look into the future recognize that whether

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Speaker 5: we like it or not, we're going to be seeing

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Speaker 5: more of these natural disasters in the future, and we

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Speaker 5: need to take action now to keep our people safe,

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Speaker 5: keep their homes safe and reduce you know, every time

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Speaker 5: we have one of these disasters that cost taxpayers billions

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Speaker 5: of dollars in repair costs. So let's take a bit

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Speaker 5: of preventative action and look after people.

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Speaker 1: Here is what Bridget McKenzie, and remember she's the person

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Speaker 1: who has been put in charge to manage the government's

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Speaker 1: stealing of natural disasters said about how the Coalition government

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Speaker 1: is preparing for disasters when she was asked by Sky

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Speaker 1: News late last year.

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Speaker 6: What are we doing about preventing the extent of the

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Speaker 6: disaster and I mean the damage from disaster. Yeah, Chris,

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Speaker 6: you make a really good point. One of the outcomes

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Speaker 6: of the Royal Commission into Natural Disasters was in our

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Speaker 6: country of drought and flooding rains, we know that we

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Speaker 6: spend ninety seven percent of our funds and our effort

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Speaker 6: in that immediate after response to a natural disaster and

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Speaker 6: only three percent in actually preparing for the next one,

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Speaker 6: which we know is going to come. And so we're

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Speaker 6: as a government wanting to change that investment. So we've

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Speaker 6: announced Preparing Australia program, a six hundred million dollar program

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Speaker 6: Round one is open right now, one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 6: million dollars for local councils right across the country to

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Speaker 6: put in for applications to better prepare their communities for

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Speaker 6: the next disaster and to lessen the impact when that

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Speaker 6: disaster occurs.

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Speaker 1: As Senator Bridget mackenzie said there, the Royal Commission Internatural

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Speaker 1: Disaster has made some key recommendations about what the federal

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Speaker 1: government can do to better prepare for these natural disasters.

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Speaker 1: In total, itmate eighty recommendations, but only fifteen were directed

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Speaker 1: at the federal government. Senator Mackenzie put out a statement

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Speaker 1: about two weeks ago saying twelve of the fifteen recommendations

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Speaker 1: for the federal government have been implemented so far. She

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Speaker 1: said there are thirty three still to complete in partnership

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Speaker 1: with the states and more for the states alone. The

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Speaker 1: opposition says that isn't good enough.

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Speaker 5: And again, this is one of the problems that we

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Speaker 5: see so often from Scott Morrissen and his government is

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Speaker 5: that they'll they'll get themselves into trouble. They'll set up

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Speaker 5: a royal commission or an inquiry which will give them

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Speaker 5: recommendations and then it just sits on the shelf without

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Speaker 5: actually being implemented. And just to give you one example,

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Speaker 5: after that Royal commission into the bushfires, one of the

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Speaker 5: recommendations was that we have a national aerial fire fighting fleet,

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Speaker 5: so you know those big water bombing planes and helicopters

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Speaker 5: that are really handy in a bush fire situation, and

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Speaker 5: also the helicopters can be used to perform rescues in

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Speaker 5: floods as well. That recommendation hasn't been implemented. We've basically

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Speaker 5: only got one more of those big planes as a country,

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Speaker 5: and what we tend to do is relying is rely

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Speaker 5: on bringing them in from overseas when we need them.

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Speaker 5: But the problem with that is that all around the world,

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Speaker 5: unfortunately due to climate change, every country's fire seasons are

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Speaker 5: getting longer and longer. So there might have been a

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Speaker 5: time in Australia where we could just borrow planes and

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Speaker 5: helicopters from California or Europe or anything like that, but

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Speaker 5: we're now in a situation where they're still using them

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Speaker 5: at the time that we want to borrow them ourselves.

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Speaker 5: And that's why it's really important for Australia to have

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Speaker 5: our own fleet. So that's just one of the recommendations

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Speaker 5: that hasn't been properly implemented and what it means, unfortunately

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Speaker 5: is that all Australians are still at risk from future

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Speaker 5: disasters because we just haven't made that investment in getting

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Speaker 5: ourselves ready. And that's obviously what Labor wants to turn

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Speaker 5: around with that disaster ready fun we were talking.

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Speaker 1: About, let's return to Lismore and look at what the

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Speaker 1: future looks like. Jess Hayes says it will at least

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Speaker 1: be a two year operation to rebuild.

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Speaker 4: The future for the community looks different within the different regions.

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Speaker 4: I think this is going to be a minimum two

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Speaker 4: year operation to try to rebuild the homes and lives.

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Speaker 3: And everything that people have lost.

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Speaker 4: I know the community of Lismore have been through this

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Speaker 4: before in twenty seventeen, and I'm not sure how many

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Speaker 4: more times they can go through something like this. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure how they will rebuild without a government

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Speaker 4: with climate change in the forefront of their minds.

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Speaker 3: It's just a catastrophe.

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Speaker 1: I asked her to expand on her belief that we

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Speaker 1: need a government that has climate change at the center

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Speaker 1: of their policies.

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Speaker 4: If there's not a government that doesn't have climate change

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Speaker 4: in the forefront of their minds, this is going to

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Speaker 4: happen again, and it's going to get worse. We've seen

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Speaker 4: the devastation with the fires and the floods, and how

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Speaker 4: this flood is according to scientists, so one in a

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Speaker 4: century type of catastrophe. And if this is happening, you

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Speaker 4: know in the space of five years, it's only going

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Speaker 4: to get a shorter amount of time and it's going

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Speaker 4: to get a lot worse. And the communities are the

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Speaker 4: ones that are going to be suffering because of that.

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Speaker 1: To summarize, it's widely accepted that natural disasters are becoming

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Speaker 1: more frequent and more severe, and whilst the reality is

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Speaker 1: that the state governments have largely been responsible for handling

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Speaker 1: these disasters, the federal government is increasingly playing a larger role. Currently,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the funding is focused on recovery. As

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Speaker 1: you heard Bridget mackenzie say, ninety seven percent of government

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Speaker 1: funding on natural disasters is currently directed are responding to

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Speaker 1: them rather than preparing for them. Both parties agree that

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Speaker 1: more needs to be done to prepare for these disasters.

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Speaker 1: In relation to the last flood, the government has been

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Speaker 1: quite clear that the severity of this flood was completely

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Speaker 1: unforeseen and that they responded in an appropriate timeframe. Labor

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Speaker 1: says they were too slow and that more needs to

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Speaker 1: be spent from the Emergency Response Fund to prepare for

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Speaker 1: the next disaster. Thank you so much for listening to

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Speaker 1: this episode of No Silly Questions. If you enjoyed it,

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Speaker 1: we would love if you could leave us a five

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Speaker 1: star rating on Spotify or leave a review on Apple.

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Speaker 1: The Daily Os is a small independent media company and

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Speaker 1: leaving us reviews is the best way you can help

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Speaker 1: us grow. If you're listening to this on Tuesday, I'm

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Speaker 1: currently on my way to Canberra for the Federal budget,

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Speaker 1: which is being handed down by the Treasurer tonight. I'll

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Speaker 1: be back on Thursday with Tom Crowley to discuss what

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Speaker 1: the government actually does. That might sound like a really

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Speaker 1: silly question, but I think you'll find it a really

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Speaker 1: interesting discussion. We'll see you then