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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast. Hello, this is doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coulson the Happy Families Podcast. Today a replay of a

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Speaker 1: conversation that I had on the phone with ABC Perth

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Speaker 1: and Wa a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: You may remember there.

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Speaker 1: Was tragic news about a young lady, Steller Berry, who

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Speaker 1: was taken by a shark in a Western Australian waterway. Well,

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Speaker 1: ABC wanted to have a chat with me about how

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Speaker 1: we can talk to our kids about grief, what do

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Speaker 1: we do about taking kids to funerals and all those

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Speaker 1: kinds of death related topics. It turned out to be

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Speaker 1: quite an emotional interview and a conversation that I think

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Speaker 1: is incredibly value for anyone who has to talk to

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Speaker 1: their kids about grief and bereavement. I hope that you

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Speaker 1: enjoy the conversation. I hope that it is helpful. Here

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Speaker 1: it is now a conversation between me and ABC Perth

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Speaker 1: and Wa Afternoon presenter Christine Layton.

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Speaker 3: It happened just in the old Freo traffic bridge. Young

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Speaker 3: Stella Berry was jet skiing with friends. She jumped off

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Speaker 3: to swim with a pot of dolphins and was attacked

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Speaker 3: by what is it suspected to be a bullshark, and

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Speaker 3: sadly she died at the scene. Stella's parents, Matt and

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Speaker 3: Sophie Berry, are both teachers at MLC and Scotch respectively,

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Speaker 3: so the loss is being felt deeply across the state.

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Speaker 3: Our thoughts are with the family and all the friends.

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Speaker 3: If you are a parent or a guardian, how have

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Speaker 3: you comforted your child after a loss like this. It's

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Speaker 3: a life changing event for so many. I thought we'd

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Speaker 3: put this one to doctor Justin Coulson TV presenter podcast,

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Speaker 3: a positive psychology expert who specializes in parenting science. Good afternoon, Justin, Christine, Hi,

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Speaker 3: it's nice to talk to you. Yeah, thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 3: Lots of parents would have been fielding questions and concerns

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Speaker 3: over the incident on the weekend. What are some key

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Speaker 3: points to remember when discussing events like this with children?

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Speaker 1: The first one's actually, I don't and don't tell you

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Speaker 1: kids how they should feel every now and again, when

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Speaker 1: our children experience sadness, frustration, confusion, or any other emotions

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Speaker 1: that we might typically label negative, we have a tendency

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Speaker 1: as parents to try to fix things, to tell them.

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Speaker 2: Not to worry, to calm down that it's going to

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Speaker 2: be okay.

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Speaker 1: We have a tendency to I guess alleviate the pain,

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Speaker 1: the distress, the suffering, the discomfort that they feel. What

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Speaker 1: research and experience both seem to point to, though, is

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Speaker 1: that people don't respond too well to being told how

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Speaker 1: they ought to feel. Instead, they respond really well when

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Speaker 1: they have a parent or a care or a safe

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Speaker 1: and trusted out or around them who simply says to them, hey,

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Speaker 1: doing or that must be really hard, or I can

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Speaker 1: tell how much this has hurt you. In other words,

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Speaker 1: by having somebody who can just I guess gently read

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Speaker 1: their emotions, feed what they're seeing back to them, and

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Speaker 1: letting them experience the emotion.

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Speaker 2: Do a lot more good.

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Speaker 1: Christen, There's a metaphor that I use off and when

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Speaker 1: I'm talking with parents about big emotions that children experience,

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Speaker 1: and that's of a train going through a tunnel.

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Speaker 2: Emotions are like that train entering the tunnel.

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Speaker 1: And as you know, I'm sure you've had the experience

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Speaker 1: when you go through a tunnel on the train. And

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Speaker 1: it can be long, it can be deep, it can

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Speaker 1: be dark. You can sometimes wonder if you will see

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Speaker 1: light at the other end. But Eventually trains come out

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Speaker 1: of tunnels in the same way emotions going into this big, deep,

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Speaker 1: dark tunnel every and now and again, some parents want

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Speaker 1: to pull out the heavy moving earth equipment and start

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Speaker 1: to dig down through the top of the mountain and

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Speaker 1: try to rip the train out through the top. But

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Speaker 1: if we can just pause and recognize that the trains

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Speaker 1: in the tunnel and that will come out a little

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Speaker 1: while down the track, maybe a kilometer, maybe an hour,

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Speaker 1: or maybe at the end of the weekend, then we

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Speaker 1: can do a much better job of just being just

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Speaker 1: sitting on the train with our kids basically and acknowledging, Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is hard.

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Speaker 3: So what kind of behaviors do children exhibit when they're

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Speaker 3: going through the tunnel, when they're going through the dark place?

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Speaker 3: What might they be doing day to day.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to give a specific guide to this

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Speaker 1: because every child, well not every job, but there's a

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Speaker 1: range of different responses. Some children will go to their

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Speaker 1: bedroom and stare at their screen. They'll cover themselves up

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Speaker 1: with a doner and eat chocolate, nice cream. There'll be

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Speaker 1: some children who will just push people away, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm fine leaving my alone.

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Speaker 2: I'm fine that they might.

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Speaker 1: Get angry and become aggressive, and some kids will act

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Speaker 1: like nothing's happened.

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Speaker 2: They might even.

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Speaker 1: Become more gregarious, more socially oriented. They might start trying

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Speaker 1: to spend more time with their friends. So we could

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Speaker 1: see withdraw we could see a heightened level of activity.

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Speaker 1: It really just depends on your child and how they're

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Speaker 1: responding to the grief that they feel.

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Speaker 3: Johnawan Dongras said kids are very resilient through naivety. I

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Speaker 3: suspect I went through some dreadful outcomes as a kid,

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Speaker 3: which ap at me more now than at the time.

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Speaker 3: What would you say to that, justin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting the way we respond as adults

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Speaker 1: versus the way kids respond to some things. Quite often

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Speaker 1: they just literally shrug it off. They don't realize. I

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Speaker 1: guess how much of it's being internalized and how much

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Speaker 1: of it will come back. Grief and trauma events cast

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Speaker 1: a long shadow into our lives, but sometimes it takes

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Speaker 1: a while for those shadows to length them for the

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Speaker 1: effects of them to really have their impact.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this text says I lost a sister to a

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Speaker 3: brain tumor thirteen years ago. The only advice I can

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Speaker 3: give is journey through the grief, find quiet spots to

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Speaker 3: have a cry without well meaning people rubbing your shoulders

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Speaker 3: with I suspect be open to it. It does get better,

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Speaker 3: but will always be there.

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Speaker 1: There are three things that I'm prompted to share based

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Speaker 1: on that. The first is, it will always be there,

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Speaker 1: so grief.

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Speaker 2: I've heard a beautiful metaphor that it can be like

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Speaker 2: a river that has.

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Speaker 1: A huge boulder down across it, and once that bould

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Speaker 1: is there, the water kind of stops flowing for a while,

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Speaker 1: but eventually because the water keeps coming down to the boulder,

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Speaker 1: and eventually it fills up around the boulder and it

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Speaker 1: creates a new pathway around the boulder. The boulder stays

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Speaker 1: there and eventually, eventually the water finds the way through.

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Speaker 2: And I really love that metaphor.

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Speaker 1: The second thing that I'm kind of inclined to share

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Speaker 1: is I remember a friend of mine lost somebody very

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Speaker 1: very very close to him.

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Speaker 2: He lost his wife, and.

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Speaker 1: Through awful experiences, he just didn't know where to go.

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Speaker 1: But he was telling me that somebody approached him one

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Speaker 1: day and said, hey, do you want to you want

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Speaker 1: to just catch up and have some breakfast, And he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to but he said yes anyway because he

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Speaker 1: knew he needed to get.

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Speaker 2: On with his life in some way.

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Speaker 1: And at breakfast, this friend just said, do you know what, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I don't have any idea none, whatsoever

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Speaker 1: what you're going through, but I know it's hard, and

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to spend some time with you and

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Speaker 1: let you know that I know.

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Speaker 2: It's hard, and if you need me, I'm here, and

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Speaker 2: if you don't, that's fine too.

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Speaker 1: And he got very emotional obviously as he told me

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Speaker 1: and said, I didn't need anything except to hear somebody

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Speaker 1: say I know it's hard. And I think as parents,

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Speaker 1: as cares of these young people, whether they're five or

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Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty five, having somebody who just sits there

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Speaker 1: and says, I know it's hard. Is It's extraordinary what

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Speaker 1: it can do for your capacity to be resilient, to

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Speaker 1: grow through it, to cope with it.

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Speaker 2: Just to have someone who doesn't tell you that it'll

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Speaker 2: be okay, then it'll.

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Speaker 1: Be all better.

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Speaker 2: Just someone who says, yeah, it's really hard is often enough.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Justin colesn is with me. We are talking about

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Speaker 3: the tragic events from the weekend sixteen year old stellar berry. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was taken by a shark and look absolutely tragic.

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Speaker 3: You can picture a young girl excited to see a

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Speaker 3: pot of dolphins jumping into the water beside them, thinking

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Speaker 3: nothing of it, And it could have been any of us.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure that kids at school today would have

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Speaker 3: been talking about exactly that it could have been me.

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Speaker 3: So how do you manage that anxiety for kids not

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Speaker 3: wanting to get back in the water. What conversation should

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Speaker 3: parents be having to reassure them that this is a

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Speaker 3: rare event. I mean, we heard this morning it was

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Speaker 3: a one in our one hundred year event. The last

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Speaker 3: time it happened was nineteen twenty three. But still, what

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Speaker 3: would you say?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's astounding how there's what psychologists call a negativity

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Speaker 1: bias within each of us. As much as we all

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Speaker 1: want to be positive people as such as we want

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Speaker 1: to have a great can do attitude, the negative events

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Speaker 1: in our lives are overpowering in terms of the way

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Speaker 1: they impact their behavior, And from an evolutionary point of view,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. Evolutionary psychology would suggest that you need

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Speaker 1: to remember the sabretooth tiger that jumps out of the

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Speaker 1: bushes or the cliff and the dangers, because it's those

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Speaker 1: memories that keep you alive. We don't need to remember

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Speaker 1: the positive, the way that raspberry tasted, or the strawberries

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Speaker 1: on top of the cake and the ice cream.

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Speaker 2: We don't need to remember that because it doesn't keep

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Speaker 2: us alive.

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Speaker 1: It's these events that cause our system to go into

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Speaker 1: overdrive and hang on, hang on so tight.

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Speaker 2: What do we say to our kids right now? If

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Speaker 2: they say I don't.

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Speaker 1: Want to go in the water, you're probably giving the

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Speaker 1: hug and say, you know what, sweetheart, that's.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you don't have to.

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Speaker 1: But it's worth pointing out that avoidance reinforces anxiety, and

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Speaker 1: so when we say to our child, you don't need

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Speaker 1: to do it, it's okay, that becomes wonderfully reinforcing of

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Speaker 1: the idea of staying out.

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Speaker 2: Of the water. And then I guess we've got to

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Speaker 2: work out what do.

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Speaker 1: We really want? What do our children really want? Do

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Speaker 1: we want to live a life where we don't spend

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Speaker 1: time in the water. Maybe we actually make a decision

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Speaker 1: together that there are some water courses that are good

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Speaker 1: to be in and some that are not okay to

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Speaker 1: be in, or some bodies of water that are okay

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Speaker 1: to be in and some that are not. And over

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Speaker 1: the next little while, we start to have conversations about

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Speaker 1: where we're going to swim, how we're going to swim,

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Speaker 1: what we're going to do to be safe. And when

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Speaker 1: conversations come up like but what about what happened, we

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Speaker 1: can say that was a tragedy and we heard all

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Speaker 1: about it and we've been affected by it. How often

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Speaker 1: does it happen? What's the likelihood of it happening again?

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Speaker 1: Do you trust that will be okay? And I guess,

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Speaker 1: just bit by bit, we psychologists will call it exposure therapy.

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Speaker 1: We move into situations where we get closer and closer

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Speaker 1: and closer to the thing that one's scared us, until

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Speaker 1: finally we're touching it, finally we're involved with it and

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Speaker 1: we're not so scared of it anymore. But it's a

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Speaker 1: very careful process, Christine. It's not the sort of thing

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Speaker 1: that you just please, don't any parents say to their kids.

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Speaker 2: Are tough enough, it's not going to happen to you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's it's such an.

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Speaker 1: Arrogant dismissal of deep anxiety that can actually really backfire.

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Speaker 1: I think that we want to tread carefully, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time, let's not coddle. Let's just be let's

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Speaker 1: be sensible about it and let the kids find their

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Speaker 1: way and they will.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what about attending funerals for kids? How do you

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Speaker 3: prepare a child for one? They would feel strongly about this,

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Speaker 3: either they really want to go, really not want to go.

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Speaker 3: But if they do want to be there, what should

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Speaker 3: you be talking about in the lead up?

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Speaker 1: Psychological research tells us for closure ceremonies to do with closure,

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Speaker 1: whether it's for a celebration or through sadness and grief,

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Speaker 1: ceremonies are an important part of helping us to transition

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Speaker 1: to our lives. In fact, there's some thought that the

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Speaker 1: transitions themselves are the best reflection of what life itself

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Speaker 1: really is.

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Speaker 2: Life happens in those transitions. The growth and the.

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Speaker 1: Powerful moments happen in those transitions. It's not what happens

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Speaker 1: to the side, it's being in those moments. So my

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Speaker 1: general advice, unless you have strong reasons for not participating

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Speaker 1: in these events is and obviously everybody's going to go

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Speaker 1: to this funeral, but if this happens in your own life,

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Speaker 1: go to the funerals, encourage the kids to be there,

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Speaker 1: participate in the ceremonies, participate in the traditions.

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Speaker 2: Obviously very young children.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying kids under about five, six, six, even seven,

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Speaker 1: they tend not to understand so much what's going on.

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Speaker 1: But regardless, if the kid's going to a funeral, the

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Speaker 1: best thing that you can do is explain what will

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Speaker 1: happen when we go to the funeral.

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Speaker 2: There's going to be a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Some of them will be sad, some of them will

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Speaker 1: be crying because they're missing our loved one, our relative.

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Speaker 1: And then you explain, some people will talk, they'll share memories,

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Speaker 1: we might see a video with some photos. They'll probably

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Speaker 1: be more crying, and we're all going to do that

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Speaker 1: because we love that person and this is how we

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Speaker 1: show that we love them. And so when the kids

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Speaker 1: know what's going on the funeral and the big emotions

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Speaker 1: that can be shown by many people at those funerals,

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Speaker 1: they don't feel quite so difficult.

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Speaker 2: And then we just coach our kids through it.

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Speaker 1: If you see someone who's feeling like that, what might

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Speaker 1: you do if you know them well, or if you

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Speaker 1: don't know them, or maybe you can give them a hug.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you just sit by me and stay quiet. We've

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Speaker 1: problem solved and plan that out with the kids ahead

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Speaker 1: of time.

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Speaker 3: I remember when my papa passed away, I really wanted

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Speaker 3: to hold his hand, and Mum was like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be too much for her. And Dad

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Speaker 3: was like, no, no, no, let her do it. I

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Speaker 3: think it's really important, and it was. I felt like

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Speaker 3: I could be there for him in his last moments

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Speaker 3: when he told us the lotto numbers, which I have

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Speaker 3: forgotten now sadly, but yeah, it's I don't think it's

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Speaker 3: too much for kids. I mean, you know your kid best,

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Speaker 3: but for me it was immensely helpful. I'm getting some

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Speaker 3: beautiful texts. Justin. I have to say this one. Thank

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Speaker 3: you Christine for this segment. My eight year old son

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Speaker 3: is going through a phase of having a lot of

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Speaker 3: anxiety about the thought of me dying. I have a

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Speaker 3: better idea of what to say now, and this one

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Speaker 3: for you. Justin Freer Cookster said, Stein's my son was

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Speaker 3: in a couple of classes with Stella. He's really reluctant

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Speaker 3: to discuss it. Any tips. What would you say, Justin?

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Speaker 1: I would go back to the things that we've already

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Speaker 1: talked about and pretty comfortably just there. I would say

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Speaker 1: to my son if it was me, you're really sad.

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Speaker 1: This is really hard. I actually don't know how you're

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Speaker 1: feeling me. I don't have I actually don't have the

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Speaker 1: words for you. But I'm here for you, and I

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Speaker 1: just give a big hug. I'd be there for him.

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Speaker 1: And if he says leave me alone that I'm fine,

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Speaker 1: say all right, buddy, that's okay, but I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to check in on you a bit late. It's to night,

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Speaker 1: and just make sure you're doing okay. Like being there

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Speaker 1: in that vulnerability, actually saying I don't even know what

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Speaker 1: to say to you, but I know it's really hard.

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Speaker 2: It gives your kids.

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Speaker 1: An opening and also the power of a pause, the

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Speaker 1: power of just standing there or sitting on the bed

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Speaker 1: beside them and saying, do you If I just sit

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Speaker 1: with you, do you might? If I just put my

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Speaker 1: arm around you, do you if I just hold your

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Speaker 1: hand for a couple of minutes, something like that. Just

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Speaker 1: let them know that you're there. They feel seen, They

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Speaker 1: know that you'll hear the if they've got something to say,

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Speaker 1: and they know that you're trustworthy.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to try to fix them. You're not

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Speaker 2: going to try to them how to feel. You're just

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Speaker 2: going to be there and say I get it. It's hard.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what it must be like for

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Speaker 2: You've got on here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think we're all getting teary here in the

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Speaker 3: studio as justin. But this is really really helpful. Mel

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Speaker 3: on the text line, I had a terminally ill brother

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Speaker 3: who died at five years old. I was eight. I

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Speaker 3: never knew he was terminal, just thought he was sick,

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Speaker 3: so his death shocked me to the core. I still

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Speaker 3: suffer anxiety and other consequences forty years on, Mel says,

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Speaker 3: talk to your kids and Roscoe. I lost my dad

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Speaker 3: in the early seventies, aged eleven, and I'm still suffering.

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Speaker 3: This text here from Jane says. Shenton College Principal Michael

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Speaker 3: Morgan has published an eloquent, beautiful tribute to Stella on

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Speaker 3: the Shenton College Facebook page, and I have to say

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Speaker 3: he has said that school psychologists, student support officers, chaplain's nurses,

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Speaker 3: year leaders are all going to be available for students

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Speaker 3: and parents and families as needed. Anything you want to

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Speaker 3: say to them, if they're listening right now, justin.

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Speaker 2: There are two things.

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Speaker 1: First of all, if you need help, if you need

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Speaker 1: to talk to somebody, go and do it.

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Speaker 2: That's the first thing. The second thing that I would share.

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Speaker 1: It might take me about a minute to get through this,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's important enough to spend the time

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Speaker 1: on it.

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Speaker 2: The grief that the grief that we feel when we

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Speaker 2: lose somebody that we love, whether it's through.

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Speaker 1: This incident or something that will happened in three months

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Speaker 1: or twelve months, or three years or ten years from now,

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Speaker 1: the grief that we feel is overwhelming. Quite often, I

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Speaker 1: had someone very close to me lose a sister unexpectedly.

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Speaker 1: She was hit by a car just six months ago.

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Speaker 1: And this friend, Wow, she just suffered so very much.

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Speaker 1: And as she cried with me one day, I said

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Speaker 1: to her, this grief that you're feeling is horrible, but

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Speaker 1: one day you might experience something that feels even worse,

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Speaker 1: and that is the absence of grief.

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Speaker 2: And the grief that we.

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Speaker 1: Feel as we go through this acute, painful time is

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Speaker 1: actually a tremendous gift because it tells just how beautiful

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Speaker 1: that person was in our life, just how much they

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Speaker 1: really really meant to us, and we meant to them.

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Speaker 1: Over time, that grief dulls as we move through life

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Speaker 1: and progress and life just continues to happen. And sure enough,

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Speaker 1: in three months or six months, or twelve, twelve months

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Speaker 1: or maybe ten years, we look back and there's still

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Speaker 1: a dull ache, there's still grief, but we long for

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Speaker 1: the pain, We long for the sadness that we feel

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Speaker 1: in a moment like this because it's not there anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's so hard, Christine, but we do, unfortunately grow through

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Speaker 1: it and grow past it.

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Speaker 2: They'll always be with us, but it's hard.

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Speaker 1: And when we recognize this, we actually get to sit

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Speaker 1: in the grief in a much healthier way, knowing that

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to feel it because we love this person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Oh this has been mensely helpful to those

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Speaker 3: who are suffering in Perth right now, but those who

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Speaker 3: have loved from around the state. So justin thank you

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Speaker 3: for tackling the really really hard stuff. You and I

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Speaker 3: will talk again in a fortnight's time.

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Speaker 2: I always love our conversations. I hope it's helpful. Thanks Christine.

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Speaker 1: That radio segment was from ABC Perth and WA Afternoons

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Speaker 1: with Christine Layton. It was produced by Dustin Skipworth. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roulan with Craig

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Speaker 1: Bruce as our executive producer. For more information about making

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Speaker 1: your family happier, please visit happyfamilies dot com dot a