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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the thirty first of January.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 4: You're listening to our three parts special investigation on VAPI.

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Speaker 2: On Monday, we went from the tobacconists to the lab

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Speaker 2: to find out what's actually in a vague Then in

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Speaker 2: part two, we looked at the loopholes in the legislation

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Speaker 2: and what's about to change.

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Speaker 5: Today.

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Speaker 2: In this final episode, we're going a bit deeper and

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Speaker 2: looking at the role of big Tobacco. If this is

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Speaker 2: your first time listening to the podcast this week, I

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Speaker 2: recommend going back and starting with Monday's deep dive before

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Speaker 2: we jump into today's episode.

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Speaker 3: Today's headlines as students begin the start of the school

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Speaker 3: year this week, Federal Education Minister Jason Clair has declared

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Speaker 3: the teacher shortage a crisis. Minister Claire told the ABC

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Speaker 3: one in five new teachers will leave the profession within

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Speaker 3: their first three years. That's if they graduate. Of course,

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Speaker 3: Claire noted just half of teaching students finish their degrees,

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Speaker 3: facing challenges including unpaid placements.

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Speaker 2: Sydney siders have been urged to avoid swimming in the

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Speaker 2: harbor after a woman was bidden.

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Speaker 4: By a suspected bull shark.

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Speaker 2: The woman was swimming near a wharf at Elizabeth Bay

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Speaker 2: at dusk in the Inner East, where nearby neighbors came

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Speaker 2: to her aid. A vett was able to bandage her

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Speaker 2: leg before paramedics arrived. City of Sydney Councilor Linda Scott

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Speaker 2: urged the public to stay out of the harbor until

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Speaker 2: further notice.

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Speaker 3: Russian figure skator Camilla Valieva has been given a four

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Speaker 3: year ban from competing for using performance in chantsing drugs.

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Speaker 3: The ban originates from doping results in December twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 3: which came through at the twenty twenty two Winter Olympics. Valievo,

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Speaker 3: who was then aged fifteen, one gold with the Russian

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Speaker 3: team at those games. This week the Court of Arbitration

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Speaker 3: for Sport upheld her Man backdated to twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 3: The World Anti Doping Agency or WATER supported the rulings,

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Speaker 3: saying the doping of children is unforgivable and.

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Speaker 2: The good news New research from the Australian National University

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Speaker 2: a and U has found a protein in the immune

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Speaker 2: system called Q seventy that can help treat bowel cancer.

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Speaker 2: The cancer cooling protein, as it's called, can be activated

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Speaker 2: with a combination of medications which can treat DNA and

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Speaker 2: prevent cancer cells from spreading. Professor C Mingman from a

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Speaker 2: and U said the Q seventy protein can help quote

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Speaker 2: predict who will fare better or worse after being diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with bow cancer.

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Speaker 4: When it comes to vapes, we're living through a period

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Speaker 4: of change. Were the government's trying to stop the tide

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Speaker 4: of colorful, flavorful, disposable vapes flowing into the country.

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Speaker 6: No more bubblegum flavors, no more pink unicorns, no more

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Speaker 6: vapes deliberately disguised as highlighter pins.

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Speaker 4: Last episode, we heard how this process of regulation isn't

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Speaker 4: always easy. These manufacturers immediately shifted to change their packaging,

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Speaker 4: but it's not just manufacturers pushing back against these reforms.

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Speaker 6: The tobacco industry has always fought very hard against these

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Speaker 6: sorts of regulations.

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Speaker 4: In this episode, we're going to go a bit deeper

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Speaker 4: and see what role big tobacco has to play.

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Speaker 7: They can smell out a whitpoul and they push it

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Speaker 7: open and make it into a door that they can

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Speaker 7: loss right through.

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Speaker 4: From the Daily Odds. This is Understanding Vapes Episode three.

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Speaker 4: The forces trying to legalize vaping. You may have seen

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Speaker 4: the billboards or the ad that sound like this.

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Speaker 8: Under Anthony Albinesie's new Recreational Vape Band, jail sentences of

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Speaker 8: up to two years will apply in some states for vapors.

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Speaker 8: Arresting Australians for vaping is not the answer. Regulate vaping

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Speaker 8: just like tobacco and alcohol for adults only.

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Speaker 4: Now that I've told you that I bought an illegal

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Speaker 4: vape am, I at risk of being prosecuted.

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Speaker 6: No, now you're not.

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Speaker 4: I'm speaking with the federal Health Minister, Mark Butler.

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Speaker 6: You know I've been very clear, and other health ministers

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Speaker 6: have been clear. We're not about penalizing users. We're not

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Speaker 6: about penalizing people who are buying these things. We're about

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Speaker 6: going after the suppliers.

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Speaker 4: Whether or not the ads are true, what they show

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Speaker 4: is that the campaign to legalize vaping is alive and well.

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Speaker 4: The ad you've had before is just one example of

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Speaker 4: a campaign currently underway.

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Speaker 7: You also have Responsible Vaeping Australia, which has run a

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Speaker 7: Facebook campaign primarily and digital advertising campaign about why we

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Speaker 7: need to weaken Australia's laws rather than strengthen them.

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Speaker 4: This is Associate Professor Becky Freeman. She's a public health

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Speaker 4: expert at the University of Sydney.

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Speaker 7: But when you looked at those ads, they failed to

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Speaker 7: declare who was funding them. Even Facebook's own rules say

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Speaker 7: if you're going to fund a political ad on their platform,

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Speaker 7: you must declare who is funding it. We complained about

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Speaker 7: those ads, they got taken down. The next day a

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Speaker 7: new ad would pop up, slightly different texts, slightly different images,

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Speaker 7: same problem, no declaration of who was funding that.

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Speaker 4: If you see these ads when you're scrolling on Facebook,

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Speaker 4: you may not know where they're from. But if you

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Speaker 4: dig a bit on the Responsible Vaping Australia Facebook page,

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Speaker 4: it says this page was created and is run by

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Speaker 4: BAT Australia. So that's British American Tobacco Australia. British American

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Speaker 4: Tobacco or BAT is one of the biggest cigarette manufacturers

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Speaker 4: and sellers in the world, So why are they interested

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Speaker 4: in apes, which arguably are cigarettes competition. I reached out

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Speaker 4: to British American Tobacco, but they turned down my offer

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Speaker 4: of an interview. They did zend through a statement saying

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Speaker 4: that through Responsible Vaping Australia, BAT consistently advocates for nicotine

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Speaker 4: vapes to be regulated, and that regulations of this nature

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Speaker 4: would allow the Australian government to control the market and

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Speaker 4: reduce the demand for dangerous illegal products and prevent them

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Speaker 4: from falling into the hands of children and teens. The

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Speaker 4: thing I have been pulling my hair out about, okay,

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Speaker 4: trying to understand sure, is what big tobacco has to

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Speaker 4: gain from the loosening of current vaping legislation.

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Speaker 7: Sometimes people can be quite confused as to why on

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Speaker 7: Earth does Philip Morris of British American Tobacco care about

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Speaker 7: vaping laws. But then again, we've got to step back

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Speaker 7: a little bit because this is a very complicated web.

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Speaker 7: These companies leave and so in Australia you have the

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Speaker 7: major players and the tobacco and sugar British American Tobacco

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Speaker 7: and you've got Philip Morris International pretty much the two

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Speaker 7: main players in this space.

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Speaker 4: British American Tobacco makes cigarettes like Dunhill and Lucky Strike.

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Speaker 4: Philip Morris makes Marlborough. In other words, these are companies

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Speaker 4: which traditionally have made their money selling cigarettes, and yet

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Speaker 4: in recent years they've started advocating for the legalization of vapes.

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Speaker 7: Philip Morris International and BAT both manufacture disposable, flavored, highly

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Speaker 7: addictive vapes and they sell them legally in other countries

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Speaker 7: that don't have the same regulatory regime as US.

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Speaker 4: In Australia. Up until now, vapes have been sold in

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Speaker 4: shops illegally using loopholes, which we spoke about in episode two.

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Speaker 7: If you're Philip Morris of British American Tobacco, you can't

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Speaker 7: just have your products sold on the illicit market. You'll

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Speaker 7: be pulled into court reputational damage. They want to be

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Speaker 7: able to legally sell those same products here and they

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Speaker 7: can't do that unless nicotine vapes are legal as a

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Speaker 7: consumer recreational good. They wanted to see Australian's vaping laws

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Speaker 7: completely weakened and allow nicotine containing veeps for general sale

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Speaker 7: as a consumer good, as a recreational good. That's what

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Speaker 7: they want, That's what they've been lobbying for.

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Speaker 4: Lobbying. This is a word we hear all the time,

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Speaker 4: especially when we talk about big tobacco. In this case,

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Speaker 4: I think it's really important to stop and unpack with

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Speaker 4: lobbying actually means what it looks like. Luckily for us,

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Speaker 4: I know someone who can help. Okay's Sara. We're doing

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Speaker 4: this VAP series and something that keeps coming up is

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Speaker 4: the role of lobbying and lobbyists in camera. And I

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Speaker 4: wanted to come to you to find out a bit

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Speaker 4: more about this. Because you have a personal relationship with lobbying,

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Speaker 4: Can you explain a bit to me about.

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Speaker 5: What that is. Sounds like I'm married to lobbying, but

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Speaker 5: I'm not. In my previous life, I worked as a lobbyist.

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Speaker 4: This is Aura Seidler, co founder of The Daily Os.

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Speaker 5: And essentially I think it can mean many things, but

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Speaker 5: if I put it down to one thing, it is

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Speaker 5: access and power. So as a lobbyist, you are hired

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Speaker 5: by a company, a private company, and they hire you

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Speaker 5: to help them get access to decision makers, so politicians,

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Speaker 5: and through that they get more power.

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Speaker 4: You went into lobbying having worked for a politician. How

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Speaker 4: kind of common is that relationship and how useful is

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Speaker 4: it if you're a lobbyist.

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Speaker 5: I mean it was very common for ex staffers to

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Speaker 5: go work in lobbying. You essentially need to have access.

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Speaker 5: That's what they're looking for because otherwise they can do

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Speaker 5: it themselves. These private companies have all the money in

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Speaker 5: the world to spend, but you can't buy access, and

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Speaker 5: so that's why they bring in external help to help

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Speaker 5: them to.

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Speaker 8: Get that access.

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Speaker 4: So in this context, we are going to see legislation

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Speaker 4: introduced this year to do with vaping regulations. So in

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Speaker 4: the context of lobbyists to what might be happening at

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Speaker 4: the moment in Parliament.

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Speaker 5: House, the role of lobbyists would be to map out

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Speaker 5: who are the important pace in this story. So it's

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Speaker 5: not just the government who's introducing that legislation, it's also

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Speaker 5: who they can expect to agitate against the legislation. People

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Speaker 5: that might get in the way of that legislation passing

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Speaker 5: or not passing. People in the opposition who might feel

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Speaker 5: strongly either way as well, and just targeting like who

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Speaker 5: are going to be the key influences in this story when.

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Speaker 4: You are taking meetings with big tobacco, what does our

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Speaker 4: conversation look look like and what kind.

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Speaker 9: Of things we want to know how the market works? Right.

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Speaker 4: Senator Matt Canavan from the Nationals is probably the most

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Speaker 4: vocal supporter for legalizing veeping in Parliament.

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Speaker 9: This is the other thing I find very strange that

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Speaker 9: the government doesn't meet with big tobacco companies, which I

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Speaker 9: find very strange because they take twelve million billion dollars

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Speaker 9: of revenue from big tobacco.

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Speaker 4: Senator Canavan is referring to the Federal government's tax on.

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Speaker 9: Cigarettes and we have a massive is another related problem

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Speaker 9: with alict of tobacco now and a lot of the

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Speaker 9: conversations that with big tobacco is how can we get

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Speaker 9: rid of that market.

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Speaker 4: Australia has signed a World Health Organization treaty which sets

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Speaker 4: out some limits on the way officials interact with the

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Speaker 4: tobacco industry. This is to try to prevent the industry

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Speaker 4: from influencing policy and reform.

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Speaker 9: Tobacco companies are selling a legal product, They're a legal business.

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Speaker 9: Why shouldn't we meet with legal businesses in this country.

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Speaker 9: It doesn't mean I agree with everything they've done or

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Speaker 9: agree with everything they do. I'm not a smoke of myself.

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Speaker 9: I don't like.

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Speaker 6: It, but.

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Speaker 4: Tobacco about how they can use the path where as

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Speaker 4: they have to sell.

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Speaker 8: Them for example.

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Speaker 9: I mean, I don't even know who half of these

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Speaker 9: companies are half the time, and I certainly don't know

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Speaker 9: much about their products.

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Speaker 4: Senator Canavan says he's fighting against feet reforms because it's

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Speaker 4: the right thing to do. Yeah.

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Speaker 9: I had a few friends who've baped and they contacted

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Speaker 9: me and so this will be terrible, like what are

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Speaker 9: we going to do? And I had a look at

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Speaker 9: it and said this is really bad. This is why

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Speaker 9: we're doing this. So I started fighting against it. That's

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Speaker 9: why I did that. And people, I'm happy for anybody

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Speaker 9: to question my motives or or you know, question why

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Speaker 9: or how I'm doing it. They they can do what

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Speaker 9: they like, but I much prefer if we just had

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Speaker 9: a debate about what's right and wrong.

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Speaker 4: Do you feel like yourself and other members of the

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Speaker 4: Nationals can fairly represent your constituents when your party is

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Speaker 4: accepting money from big tobacco companies like Philip Morris.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, absolutely do.

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Speaker 4: In the twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two financial year,

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Speaker 4: the Federal Nationals Party accepted fifty five thousand dollars from

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Speaker 4: Philip Morris because I.

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Speaker 9: Mean, we should have debates about the merits of our arguments,

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Speaker 9: not the motives, because two can play this game. I mean,

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Speaker 9: a labor party takes a lot of money from trade

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Speaker 9: unions and just happens that right now they're introducing legislation

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Speaker 9: which will help trade unions. I actually don't.

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Speaker 4: Unnecessarily responsible for twenty thousand people in Australia.

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Speaker 9: Dying every year from the SI I hang on. I mean, well,

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Speaker 9: I would argue that actually it's the choices of people alone.

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Speaker 9: It's a legal product. If we want to get rid

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Speaker 9: of tobacco, we could ban it.

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Speaker 4: The government something you would add, No, I don't.

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Speaker 9: I don't think we should do that. But because that

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Speaker 9: same reason about vaping, I don't think it'll be effective.

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Speaker 9: But governments here very hypocritical. They told me, the government

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Speaker 9: senators that I shouldn't even talk to big tobacco companies.

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Speaker 9: Yet they're taking twelve billion dollars a year in excise.

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Speaker 4: Senator Canavan is referring again here to the federal government's

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Speaker 4: tax on tobacco products.

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Speaker 9: I mean, if anybody's addicted to nicotine, it's your federal government.

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Speaker 9: They're raking in twelve billion dollars a year from it.

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Speaker 9: And I would suggest that at least a part of

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Speaker 9: the reason the government is trying to crack down on

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Speaker 9: vaping is they want to strip out more money from

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Speaker 9: those people who smoke. Because the government right now as

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Speaker 9: it stands, make no money from vaping, but they make

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Speaker 9: twelve billion dollars a year from smoking.

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Speaker 4: Why not crack down on cigarettes the same way you're

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Speaker 4: cracking down on fabes.

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Speaker 6: Well, we are, I mean we are cracking down.

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Speaker 4: Mark Butler is the federal Health Minister. They're still going

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Speaker 4: to be able to be bought at every supermarket in

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Speaker 4: the country.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we've increased the price where we're cracking down on

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Speaker 6: those marketing arrangements.

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Speaker 4: The government passed new tobacco reform through Parliament at the

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Speaker 4: end of last year, which will change the warnings on

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Speaker 4: cigarettes and introduce new restriction on more traditional tobacco products.

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Speaker 6: Any there's not any real regime around the world that

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Speaker 6: simply seeks to wipe out something that's been in place

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Speaker 6: unfortunately for decades. We're taking a different approach to vaping.

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Speaker 6: We've engaged very closely with the Tobacco Control Sector, Cancer Council,

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Speaker 6: so many other academics who've worked in this area for

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Speaker 6: decades literally. And the thing about vaping is it's so new,

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Speaker 6: like it's really only been around for a few years

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Speaker 6: in any significant numbers. It's exploded through COVID really, so

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Speaker 6: we think there's still the ability to stamp out something

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Speaker 6: before it becomes endemic through Australia.

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Speaker 4: The reality is the evidence about the health impacts of

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Speaker 4: aping is still emerging. We know that over twenty thousand

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Speaker 4: Australians die every year from smoking. You don't think that's

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Speaker 4: warranted to really have a conversation about cracking down on

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Speaker 4: cigarettes in the same way and only selling them with

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Speaker 4: the prescription.

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean, the thing is we've seen those tobacco

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Speaker 6: use rates just continue to slide over fifty years, and

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Speaker 6: we've got them down to about ten percent of the population.

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Speaker 6: But what we've advised is without new control measures, we

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Speaker 6: weren't going to meet that the smoking rates. We're going

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Speaker 6: to plataut about ten percent, which is far too high.

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Speaker 6: So that's why we've passed new laws through the parliament.

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Speaker 6: We're determined to continue to drive that rate down, lift

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Speaker 6: the price of the cigarettes, that's an iportant measure, but

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Speaker 6: also stamp out these new marketing tactics from the industry.

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Speaker 4: The reality is the government got their tobacco reform through

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Speaker 4: parliament and they're likely going to get their vap reforms

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Speaker 4: through too. Isn't big tobacco fighting or losing battle. The

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Speaker 4: government said they're going to be legislating strongly and cracking

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Speaker 4: down on vets. Why do they still push back on reform.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Look, I don't want to simplify it too much, but

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Speaker 7: N ANDD. Isn't it just for cash. There's a lot

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Speaker 7: of money to be met in a highly addictive product

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Speaker 7: that people could go on to use for decades. That

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Speaker 7: was the business model for cigarettes, right, So if you're

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Speaker 7: big tobacco, you don't just sort of roll over and die.

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Speaker 7: You go Okay. We've got a country like Australia, which

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Speaker 7: is a world leader in tobacco control and now also

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Speaker 7: a world leader in vaping control. They set the tone

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Speaker 7: for what other countries around the world will do so

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Speaker 7: within the world. Relatively small country twenty two million people

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Speaker 7: smoking rates are hovering around eleven percent. You think, well,

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Speaker 7: that's not a very big slice of the tobacco industry's revenue,

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Speaker 7: not a big slice of their global market. But what

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Speaker 7: we do here has a domino effect in other countries. Adopted,

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Speaker 7: we adopt, So they need to come in and squash. Really,

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Speaker 7: I guess progressive legislation because it has a knack for

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Speaker 7: catching on.

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Speaker 4: How much of a role has big tobacco played in

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Speaker 4: slowing the regulation of vapes up until now, and are

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Speaker 4: you ready to fight that fight moving forward?

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Speaker 6: Absolutely. I was in the last government as a health minister,

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Speaker 6: last live a government more than ten years ago, when

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Speaker 6: we were the first country in the world to introduce

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Speaker 6: plan packaging of cigarette packets and those graphic warnings you

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Speaker 6: now see on the front of cigarette packets. They're now

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Speaker 6: seen in dozens and dozens of countries around the world.

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Speaker 6: But when we did that, the tobacco industry, through every

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Speaker 6: lawyer they could find at us. It took us to

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Speaker 6: court internationally. We fought for years defending that program. So

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Speaker 6: I know through experience that when you put in place

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Speaker 6: these regulations that are designed to stamp out essentially a

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Speaker 6: strategy of Big tobacco. They'll fight us because they've got

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Speaker 6: a lot of profit to make out of the status quo.

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Speaker 4: Remember right at the start of this series, I told

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Speaker 4: you about the pharmacist in China Homlik, who's credited with

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Speaker 4: designing the first beep to achieve mass commercial success. The

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Speaker 4: story goes he invented the veep to try quit smoking. Apparently,

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Speaker 4: a decade on from inventing the veep, he was still

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Speaker 4: smoking cigarettes. But here's the thing, Well, Homelik may have

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Speaker 4: met vaates. Popular Philip Morris has been working on designing

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Speaker 4: something like a vape as far back as nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 4: In other words, big tobacco has always had a vested

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Speaker 4: interest in making vapes legal and commercially viable. We're gonna

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Speaker 4: have to wait and see how big tobacco responds to

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Speaker 4: the government's feet reforms. The one thing that seems certain

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Speaker 4: is that this is not the end of the story.

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Speaker 4: This podcast was edited and written by me Nina Coople.

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Speaker 4: Joke Khilie was our producer, Belief It Simon's was our

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Speaker 4: executive producer, and Lucy Tassel was our fact checker. Thanks

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Speaker 4: for checking the facts, Lucy.

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Speaker 10: My absolute pleasure. Nina. If you're hearing this, you've made

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Speaker 10: it to the end of understanding vapes. Thanks so much

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Speaker 10: for listening. If you liked it, if you learned something,

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Speaker 10: if you feel like your friends could learn something from

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Speaker 10: this series, pop it up on your Instagram stories. It

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Speaker 10: really helps us keep doing what we're doing.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Lucy for your work, and thank you for listening already.

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Speaker 4: And this is the daily. This is the daily, This

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Speaker 4: is the daily.

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Speaker 9: Os Oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 6: Mm hmmm.