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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, Hello, and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. It's

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Speaker 1: so good to have you along, Money and stops, Justin

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Speaker 1: Corson and who with my wife and mum to our

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Speaker 1: six kids, Kylie and miss Happy Families. Kylie. Is something

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Speaker 1: a little bit different today? You said that you wanted

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Speaker 1: to run the podcast. I'm not sure if I'm understanding

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Speaker 1: you correctly. You wanted to run the podcast. You said

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Speaker 1: you want the rains to kick things off, and all

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Speaker 1: I know is that you want quiz me on some stuff.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not even sure if we're going to get

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Speaker 2: through this. In the last thirty seconds, we've had three

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Speaker 2: different children come to the doors. So hard, How hard

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Speaker 2: is it?

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Speaker 1: It's so so a few minutes of peace, please. I

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Speaker 1: think this is why people like major organizations have started

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Speaker 1: to say that work from home is not a thing

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Speaker 1: and it can't keep going. So many interruptions, My goodness. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: what do you want to talk about today?

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Speaker 2: Birth order ideas are everywhere at the moment in my

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Speaker 2: social feeds, right right, So I wanted to talk to

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Speaker 2: you about whether or not there is actually any scientific

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Speaker 2: proof to birth orders.

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Speaker 1: Well, before we talk about birth order generally, let me

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Speaker 1: just quickly suggest that you can safely disregard I'd say

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Speaker 1: ninety percent, maybe ninety five, maybe ninety nine percent of

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Speaker 1: what shows up your social feeds. It's credibility, reliability. The

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Speaker 1: quality of information that you get on social media is

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Speaker 1: generally low. I know that there's more and more people

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Speaker 1: taking relationship and parenting advice on TikTok and Instagram. It

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Speaker 1: is true that there are some really smart people doing

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Speaker 1: some really good things there, so I want to be

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Speaker 1: supportive of that. But you kind of have to have

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Speaker 1: a PhD in the thing that you're interested in, so

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Speaker 1: that you know which of the one hundred percent is

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Speaker 1: the ninety pcent you should ignore and which of one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent is the tempercent that you should take on that.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Just lost me.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is most of it is rubbish, and

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Speaker 1: you've got to be really smart to know what's good

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Speaker 1: and what's not. That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: But the challenge is for the average person. I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at the fact that there's been a bajillion view is

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Speaker 2: right on something it's tracting, which.

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Speaker 1: Gives it credibility exactly. So you see something's had three

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Speaker 1: million views and you think, well, this must be really good,

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Speaker 1: And it might be really good, but it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: it's right. It might just be really funny or really

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Speaker 1: clever or whatever, but not necessarily right.

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Speaker 2: Well, the general gist of birth order stereotypes the eldest.

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Speaker 1: Hang on a second before you go on, Is this

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Speaker 1: your general gist from what you've picked up on your

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Speaker 1: social media?

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Speaker 2: No, not so much from social media. I think across

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Speaker 2: the board over the years, with its kind of an environment. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: over and over again. Eldest children they're the responsible, reliable ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: middle children. We call it middle children's syndrome for a reason.

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Speaker 2: They feel hard done by because they're kind of left

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Speaker 2: out in the in the middle of no man's lands.

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Speaker 1: Are often spoken of as being very competitive, though I

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Speaker 1: was about to.

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Speaker 2: Say there is a different element to that as well.

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Speaker 1: You've got to clamor for attention because the oldest and

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Speaker 1: the youngest always take.

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Speaker 2: It, and then the third born or last born is

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Speaker 2: fun loving, attention seeking and one responsibility. They're the one

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Speaker 2: that gets away with everything becausemum and dad are so

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Speaker 2: tired by that point. They don't have rules like they

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Speaker 2: had for baby number one.

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Speaker 1: And the otherest one off and also gets all of

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Speaker 1: the treats and all the goodies because Mum and Dad

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Speaker 1: have gotten themselves into a financial position that the oldest

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Speaker 1: kids never had. Right Like, the longer you live life, ideally,

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Speaker 1: the more established you become and there for the more

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Speaker 1: you can afford. I remember watching my youngest siblings go

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Speaker 1: on the best holidays ever.

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Speaker 2: Ahhuh.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not going to complain and say I never

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Speaker 1: got to go on holidays with my family, but nothing

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Speaker 1: compared to what my my younger sibling's got. And even

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Speaker 1: in our family, I'm seeing that happen as well. Our

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Speaker 1: eldest daughter mid twenties, is watching what the youngest kids

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Speaker 1: are getting and going. They're doing pretty well, aren't they?

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Speaker 2: And she makes sure everybody knows that's right. And I

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Speaker 2: think the only other thing that comes out is often

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Speaker 2: the youngest children have very little photographic evidence.

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Speaker 1: Well again in our family, so so fishing. Now, our

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Speaker 1: eldest you did all this beautiful art and put together

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Speaker 1: this incredible photo album that you did a cross stitch

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Speaker 1: for wall with her birth date on it and a

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Speaker 1: picture of a baby sleeping and under a blanket ian.

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Speaker 1: It was just gorgeous. And you started a cross stitch

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Speaker 1: for Abby, our second born, three years later, which was

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Speaker 1: never completed. And I don't think any of our kids

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Speaker 1: have got photo albums other than Chanelle.

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Speaker 2: Hey, hey, hey, I'm throwing shade. Let's just be real. Chanelle,

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Speaker 2: our eldest, she got chill. She was too. It's not

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Speaker 2: like I did a grand job of her existence. And

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Speaker 2: I am doing my very best to catch up on

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Speaker 2: the other five children in the process.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a whole lot of people who are

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Speaker 1: out there who are writing books about birth order and

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Speaker 1: getting paid big money to give birth order talks and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's a big deal and there's a huge market for it.

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Speaker 1: There's a really big market, and people are a super responsive.

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Speaker 1: People really seem to I don't get caught up in it.

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Speaker 1: People really love the whole birth order thing.

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Speaker 2: I think I know what you're going to say. What

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Speaker 2: your answer is based on your reactions already.

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Speaker 1: By birth to say, based on the fact that we've

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Speaker 1: been married for twenty seven years.

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Speaker 2: But is there actually any truth to birth order?

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Speaker 1: Oh? So, Kinlie. The tricky thing here is that so

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Speaker 1: much of it feels right if.

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Speaker 2: You were to ask me whether or not I fitted

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Speaker 2: the eldest child bracket.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of stuff on social media at

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Speaker 1: the moment about eldest daughter syndrome, specifically because the eldest

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Speaker 1: daughter is the one from in terms of a distribution

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Speaker 1: of labor and expectation and being the responsive one because

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Speaker 1: they're the oldest. There's heaps of stuff that's been booming

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Speaker 1: for a few months now about the eldest daughter having

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Speaker 1: to carry the weight of the family.

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Speaker 2: Well, growing up, my mum specifically rode me really really

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Speaker 2: hard in learning how to take care of a home.

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Speaker 1: I remember you're saying that you were making beds with

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Speaker 1: nice hospital tucks on the corners from like five or

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Speaker 1: six years of age.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, easily easily. My little sisters did not. When I

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Speaker 2: got married and left home, they literally would call me

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Speaker 2: almost in tears because they had no idea how much

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Speaker 2: of the low I had carried for all those years or.

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Speaker 1: True eldest daughter syndrome. It must be a thing.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just saying, so here's.

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Speaker 1: What we know from a research point of view. It

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Speaker 1: feels right, but it's not really right. There are some

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Speaker 1: things that you're going to tick the boxes and go yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Birth order is a thing. This all came about from

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenty is a guy called Alfred Adler, and

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Speaker 1: this is what we would call Adlerian psychology, and he

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Speaker 1: came up with this whole birth order thing, and really

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Speaker 1: it's just vexed. The evidence doesn't support it. I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you why. You've got issues around gender and gender roles.

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Speaker 1: So eldest daughters and eldest sons have different experiences. And

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Speaker 1: when you have boy girl boy or boy boy boy

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Speaker 1: or girl girl girl or whatever, that plays havoc with it.

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Speaker 1: The size of the gap between the kids has a

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Speaker 1: huge impact on whether or not these stereotypes fit. And

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Speaker 1: there's so much more. Like you have blended families. You

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Speaker 1: have families whether it's twins. You have families where there's

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Speaker 1: the tragedy of a death of a sibling. Let's say

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Speaker 1: the eldest child passes away. Does the second child now

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Speaker 1: become the eldest child and take on those attributes and characteristics?

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Speaker 1: I mean none, none of this really works. And then

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Speaker 1: you've got families like ours where you've got six kids.

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Speaker 1: So what happens when you get to number four and

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Speaker 1: number five? Which one is the middle child? When you've

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Speaker 1: got six children.

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Speaker 2: Well it's two, three, four and five.

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Speaker 1: They're all competitive. That makes so much sense. Yeah, right

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Speaker 1: now in Australia as well, there's real concern that there

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Speaker 1: are no more middle children at all, because the average

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Speaker 1: Australian woman is presently having one point five children.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand that mass, but anyway.

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Speaker 1: Well, on average, I mean, nobody's really having one five

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Speaker 1: children obviously, but when you have fewer children, that means

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Speaker 1: most families today are only having one child or two children.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing, especially when I'm doing talks in inner

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Speaker 1: city schools and in corporations for people who are working

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Speaker 1: in their sort of more high powered jobs.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's one way to get rid of sibling rather,

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Speaker 2: or isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Just don't have siblings. But increasingly I'm meeting people who

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Speaker 1: are stressed out and worried and hot housing their one child.

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Speaker 1: And maybe some of you right now are listening to

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Speaker 1: the podcast and thinking, oh my goodness, that's me. He's

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Speaker 1: talking about me. He's throwing shade at me. Maybe because

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Speaker 1: we're investing so much in our one or in our two,

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Speaker 1: but middle children are literally in some suburbs of Australia

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Speaker 1: are literally becoming a thing of the past, which I

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Speaker 1: think is really astonishing. So the whole Adlerian birth order

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Speaker 1: conversation is potentially becoming less relevant than ever. Kylie, my

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Speaker 1: impolite version of this is that while some families might

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Speaker 1: experience some of this with birth order, it's basically a

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Speaker 1: lot of rubbish. The evidence is really shaky at best,

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Speaker 1: and so I get really concerned when people are out

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Speaker 1: there trumpeting this stuff and making money off it, because

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Speaker 1: it's just just rubbish. Like so that sounds really harsh,

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Speaker 1: But the evidence isn't there to support it. The evidence

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Speaker 1: just isn't there to support it. Some of it rings true,

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Speaker 1: but the evidence isn't there.

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Speaker 2: I want to say, really really, because it's just so accepted.

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Speaker 2: But when I look at the experiences that we're having

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Speaker 2: within our family just alone, let alone our friends' families,

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Speaker 2: I don't see the evidence. I remember a long time

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Speaker 2: ago you telling me that I could read my star

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Speaker 2: signs and I would find correlation in my life on

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Speaker 2: a daily basis. There would be some truth in there

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Speaker 2: that would marry. And I think that we see that.

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Speaker 2: I look at our eldest daughter, and she is ridiculously responsible.

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Speaker 2: She's the first one to jump in.

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Speaker 1: But she's also in her mid twenties, and all of

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Speaker 1: her sisters are they're in their teeth. Well, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple in their early twenties, but they're still living at home.

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Speaker 1: She's married, like, she's at a totally different point in

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Speaker 1: her life, which is much more likely to explain what's

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Speaker 1: going on.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I was going to say. It is

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Speaker 2: a maturity thing. And you think about any other relationship

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Speaker 2: where you're dealing with somebody who's ten years older than

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Speaker 2: you or whatever. You often will deflect to them because

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Speaker 2: of senior already an age. Often not always the case.

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Speaker 2: But I just think as our children, as we've watched

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Speaker 2: subsequent children age and grow and mature, they're taking on

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Speaker 2: responsibilities that they wouldn't have done five years ago because

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Speaker 2: they're matured.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing. So Chanella aged out of the system,

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Speaker 1: and Abby became the big sister, and then Abby aged out,

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Speaker 1: and Ella did, and now Annie has and we're watching

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Speaker 1: Lily mature into that as well as Annie's getting close

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Speaker 1: to finishing her schooling and moving on with her life.

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Speaker 1: So I would argue that much of this is about

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Speaker 1: maturity and losery correlations, Kylie. There are some studies that

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Speaker 1: do indicate that birth order has an impact on some

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Speaker 1: things like higher IQ. I just want to put this

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Speaker 1: out there in bright, flashing lves because I want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize I am an eldest child. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: happened to me there, and you are also. When it

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Speaker 1: as child and eldest kids do have a slightly higher

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Speaker 1: IQ compared to their siblings, they are known as being

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Speaker 1: more intelligent.

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Speaker 2: Again, I can only go on the experiences we've had,

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Speaker 2: But when I think about parenting our eldest child.

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Speaker 1: I'm not actually kidding. The research does show that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. And when I think about that, I

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Speaker 2: think about how much more uninterrupted time she had with me.

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Speaker 2: It's not that she got more time with me. She

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Speaker 2: got uninterrupted time with me. She didn't have to share

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Speaker 2: me with anybody else.

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Speaker 1: It comes down to parental investment. I'm convinced of that.

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Speaker 1: It's all about parental investment. They're more likely eldest children

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Speaker 1: are more likely to stay at school longer. As well,

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Speaker 1: although the research around that is not particularly strong, but

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Speaker 1: it's sort of strong ishue.

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Speaker 2: But do you think again, when you look at that

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Speaker 2: uninterrupted childhood experience, when we understand and know that the

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Speaker 2: first seven years of a child's life is foundational to

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Speaker 2: their growing they've been invested with so much because they're

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Speaker 2: not more competent, Yeah, that's got to play a part.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Also in terms of research, from a personality

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Speaker 1: point of view, there's no relationship between personality and birth order.

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Speaker 1: Like if you meet some body at a parent meet

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Speaker 1: and greet or at a picnic and you bumping into

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Speaker 1: somebody for the first time saying hi, I'm justin you're Kylie,

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Speaker 1: nice to meet you. You can't look at that person

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Speaker 1: and say, you know, I've been observing you for the

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Speaker 1: last four minutes and I'm pretty sure you're a middle child,

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Speaker 1: aren't you, or you're you're definitely a youngest, Like you

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Speaker 1: can't tell when you're working with somebody, You've got no

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Speaker 1: idea where they.

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Speaker 2: You have had plenty of people tell me I'm an

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Speaker 2: eldest child.

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Speaker 1: Must be that eldest eles daughter syndrome thing coming out

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Speaker 1: again anyway.

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Speaker 2: So why do the ideas persist. Then, I mean, like

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Speaker 2: I said, this is going around like crazy at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, A couple of things. First off, I think that

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Speaker 1: there's just that illusory correlation thing going on, and it's

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Speaker 1: in the water, it's in the ether, it's in the environment.

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Speaker 1: We've been talking about it for so many decades. It's

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Speaker 1: just one of those conversational topics that comes up. So

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Speaker 1: I would say that that's what's going on. Ultimately, what

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Speaker 1: we're not what we're talking about here is not a

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Speaker 1: birth order reality. I think it's just that family patterns

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Speaker 1: change and people mature. To me, that's the that's the

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Speaker 1: whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Earlier you talked about this whole idea of oldest daughter syndrome.

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Speaker 2: I actually haven't heard the words before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's huge on social media, but I can relate. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: as you have suggested, here's the thing. A bulk of

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Speaker 1: the caregiving, care taking, kin keeping. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: word you want to use, the work of keeping a

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Speaker 1: family together falls to women. That's the way that it

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Speaker 1: has been in most societies, across the generations, across time,

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Speaker 1: across cultures, rightly or wrongly, that's the way that it

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Speaker 1: has been It's.

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Speaker 2: Interesting you say that because from I guess a historical

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Speaker 2: point of view, with that patriarchal society, yea, I would

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Speaker 2: have thought that the eldest son would have played a

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Speaker 2: much bigger.

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Speaker 1: Role provide and protect as opposed to doing the social

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Speaker 1: work provide and protect. So you read a book like

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Speaker 1: The Weirdest People in the World, you read something like guns,

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Speaker 1: germs and stilled basically any.

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Speaker 2: Really, no, no one's reading books.

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Speaker 1: These are incredible books. Any any book that does major

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Speaker 1: work on the anthropological history of our culture and our species.

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Speaker 1: They all point in the same direction, like this is

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Speaker 1: not a politically loaded thing. It's simply the history of

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Speaker 1: the world in an unfiltered fashion. But if you look

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Speaker 1: at it, if an oldest daughter happens to have a

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Speaker 1: younger brother, research shows that the split of gendered expectations

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Speaker 1: is even stronger. We see older daughters take on more

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Speaker 1: housework than the little brothers. Even younger sisters will do

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Speaker 1: more housework than their older brothers. That's the world that

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Speaker 1: we live in, which is a really big concern here.

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Speaker 1: I think. I mean, we talk about I'm writing this

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Speaker 1: book about raising boys right now, and I'm really taken

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Speaker 1: by the idea that Richard Reeves highlights about how you

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Speaker 1: go from being a boy to or a man when

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Speaker 1: you start to contribute more than you take, and we

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Speaker 1: see boys as they're growing up. There's just a completely

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Speaker 1: gendered split when it comes to the division of labor

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Speaker 1: in the household, especially when it comes to kids and

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Speaker 1: their chores. It's absolutely fascinating. But again, this is less

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Speaker 1: about birth order and more about gender division of labor.

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Speaker 1: Now we're sort of stepping into a different area as well.

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Speaker 1: I guess the other reason that these ideas persist, Kyle,

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Speaker 1: is there's confirmation bias at play. So if you've been

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Speaker 1: consistently told that you're the responsible one, or the athletic one,

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Speaker 1: or the helpless one, or the musical one or the

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Speaker 1: funny one, it starts to become part of your identity.

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Speaker 1: But a second child or a later born child might

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Speaker 1: be more artistic or more funny or moor whatever, because

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Speaker 1: they've been exposed to more opportunities. Because, as we said,

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Speaker 1: parents have more financial stability as they have more kids

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Speaker 1: and as life goes on. So my app shot of

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Speaker 1: this is that birth order isn't destiny, and to make

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Speaker 1: sure of it, to make sure of it. As a parent.

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Speaker 1: What we need to spread the love around and spread

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Speaker 1: the responsibility around as well. And if someone tries to

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Speaker 1: sell your book about birth order, hold one of your

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Speaker 1: money and run. I'm really glad you took control of

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Speaker 1: the podcast today, Honey. That was fun.

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Speaker 2: I love your sense of control.

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Speaker 1: I like it. I like it when you're in control.

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Speaker 1: We should stop there. The Happy Family Podcast is back tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. He's

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Speaker 1: our producer and he makes the podcast sound great. If

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Speaker 1: you'd like more information about making your family happy, please

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Speaker 1: visit us at happy families dot com dot au. Oh

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Speaker 1: tomorrow tomorrow on the pod, Can't wait for this one

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Speaker 1: talking with Brett Campbell, the CEO of YUCA, the homeschooling

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Speaker 1: company that provides curricula to families who are trying to

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Speaker 1: pull their kids out of school and do it all

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Speaker 1: at home. Can't wait for that one.