1 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my work day. This episode is 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: another my favorite Tip episode. The title is probably pretty 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from each of 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: the interviews I conduct. I use this format because I 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: sometimes feel myself as a podcast listener that I just 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: want to get in, get the most amount of value 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: from an episode, and then get out. So in this format, 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: that's exactly what I do. My guest today is Julian Morrow. 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: Julie is co founder of The Chaser and Giant Dwarf, 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: and he's being the executive producer, writer and performer on 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: various shows including The Chasers, War On Everything, Hamster Wheel, 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: and The Checkout. I first met Jules when he and 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: Chris Taylor from The Chaser MC to Bigger Words Night, 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: my company inventing and puts on annually, and I remember 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: grilling him on the joke writing process because I was 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: so fascinated by it. So in this clip. Jewel starts 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: by explaining a definition of comedy that he really likes, 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: and we get into talking about how do you actually 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: make something funny? So on that note, over to Jewels. 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: A few years ago, I hosted Friday Drive on Radio 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: National and that was a great gig to just be 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: able to interview people who happened to be in town 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: and stuff like that. 28 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: And I interviewed this guy. 29 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 4: He was an academic about comedy, and I was a 30 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 4: bit suss of it, because you know, what could be 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 4: more boring than doing academic studies of comedy? But I 32 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 4: had this guy in and he gave a definition of 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 4: comedy which I actually thought was really really solid and 34 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 4: identifies the key of what makes a joke work. 35 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 3: So he defines I can't remember that he's defining. 36 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 4: Comedy or a joke, but he basically says, it's the 37 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 4: benevolent violin of expectations. That what you do is you 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 4: set up the setup, as it's literally called, you set 39 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 4: up an expectation. The joke, the punchline is essentially a 40 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 4: violation of that setup. It's something unexpected that happens. And 41 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 4: then the other thing that he added in is that 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 4: it's benevolent. 43 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: That the reason that. 44 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 4: Everyone laughs is because at some level it's okay they 45 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 4: And it is very true that a joke, while it 46 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 4: might be written by one person or a group of 47 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 4: people laughing, is it's sort of like a communal experience. 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 4: It's I suppose when you're reading it's not, but even 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 4: then it's a communication between the person who's written and 50 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 4: the reader in a room, studio audience, or a comedy venue, it's. 51 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 3: A community thing. 52 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 4: It's basically the audience understanding something that in a way 53 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 4: you haven't said. It's like you're playing with people's expectations 54 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 4: of the meaning. I think that's a really good definition 55 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 4: of what a joke is, and the benevolence important, and 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 4: we learned later on that sometimes if the audience doesn't 57 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 4: share your sense of the benevolence, then things can get 58 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 4: pretty ugly, and that's when you get all these sort 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 4: of taste and decency controversies. But essentially, a joke is 60 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 4: about setting up an expectation and then doing the opposite, 61 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 4: and there are lots of different forms of that. 62 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 3: One of the simplest is the rule of three. 63 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: You know, ab everyone assumes it's going to be it's 64 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 4: going to be one thing and then it's something else. 65 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 4: That's the obvious form of it, and most comedy is 66 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 4: a form of that. It's also usual. It's also sort 67 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 4: of indirect. It's usually the intended meaning is usually not 68 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 4: the literal meaning. So you know, even like you know, 69 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 4: Jane Austen and things like, that's a lot of irony 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 4: and when you know what's really going on even. 71 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: Though the characters are saying something else, and those sorts 72 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: of things. 73 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 4: So yeah, so it's a craft, and it's a craft 74 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 4: you can learn and you get better at it with practice. 75 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 4: And we did it for a long time, starting off 76 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 4: with a newspaper which we used to put out fortnightly 77 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 4: and just sort of spend sleepless nights working up silly 78 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 4: jokes that no one read. 79 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: But that was sort of our training ground. 80 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, in the end, it's a pretty 81 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 4: simple craft of make people expect one thing do the other. 82 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: When you spend a lot of. 83 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 4: Time writing comedy, you know almost instinctively what the obvious 84 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 4: and easy joke is. 85 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: And they're obvious and easy because they work most of 86 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: the time. If you can do. 87 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 4: Something that's a bit more unexpected and I suppose the 88 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 4: chaser style was to do something that was a bit harsher, 89 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: a bit more that went places that other people wouldn't go. 90 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: Then people really respond to that. 91 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 5: Is there an example you can think of of a 92 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 5: joke or a skit or segment that was on the 93 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 5: show where this is kind of what the obvious thing 94 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 5: would look like, but here's where you decided to go instead, 95 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 5: or even in more recent times. 96 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: It's hard to put your finger on, but there are 97 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 4: things like after nine eleven, one of my favorite jokes 98 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 4: was headline center Point, which is you know, Sydney's Center 99 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 4: Point tow which was I think at the time the 100 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 4: largest building in Sydney, probably not now, but the headline 101 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 4: was center Point jumps too in world's Tallest Building rankings, 102 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 4: like and that was like this very very lateral angle 103 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 4: on a horrible tragedy. We thought that was Some people 104 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 4: didn't like that joke. I thought it was funny, and 105 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 4: I thought it was far enough away, perhaps not in time, 106 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 4: but in sort of in its angle and things like 107 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 4: that for it to be funny at the time. We 108 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 4: had some controversies over the years with jokes that where 109 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 4: we made jokes about things that other people think shouldn't 110 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 4: have jokes made about them, And I suppose that's an 111 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 4: example of jokes that really divide people. The people who 112 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 4: find those funny, I think, then develop a loyalty or 113 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 4: affection for you, for you for sort of going there, 114 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 4: but then people who hate those jokes hate you as 115 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 4: Another one would be the Chris and Andrew's eulogy song, 116 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 4: which was built around the premise that you can't be 117 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 4: defamed when you're dead at one level, and also that 118 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 4: even horrible people are thought of fondly in death, and 119 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 4: so we essentially do this sort of role call of 120 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 4: dead Australian celebrities that was extremely offensive but was also 121 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 4: making I think a legitimate point in a way that 122 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 4: no one else at the time probably would have done, 123 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 4: probably because they had some good sense, but yeah, you 124 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 4: know that was and then actually the punchline of that 125 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 4: was another good example. Road McManus's wife, Belinda Reeman had 126 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 4: died not long before this, and obviously that was just 127 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 4: a tragedy and a horrible thing to happen. And even 128 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 4: though we'd made jokes all sorts of dead people, we 129 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 4: knew that that at the time. To have made a 130 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: joke about that would have just been completely that would 131 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 4: have been over the line, even even our line. But 132 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 4: the punchline of that of that song was actually Andrew 133 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: at the piano saying the words Berlin as if he 134 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 4: was about to launch into this joke, right, and that 135 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 4: was genuinely no one there, and we were sort of like, oh, no, stop. 136 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 4: Of course, it was never intended that the joke would 137 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 4: be done. That was that was the joke. But I 138 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 4: think that's an example of being so unexpected that that 139 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 4: kind of although some people at the time wrote that 140 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: up pass and the Chaser team had to shut their 141 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 4: colleague down as he was about to launch on, you know. 142 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 3: And you're like, well, god, what do you people think? 143 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: Like they It's amazing how if you if you don't 144 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 4: want to understand a joke, you can really really tie 145 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 4: yourself and everyone else up in knots. 146 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: Hi there it's me again. I found it so interesting 147 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: hearing Jill's talk about writing jokes. It's it's personally something 148 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: that I think about quite a bit, particularly when I'm 149 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: writing new material for keynotes. I feel that these days, 150 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: as a keynote speaker or really for anyone that delivers presentations. 151 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: As part of their work, you have to be funny 152 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: and entertaining. Like it's not enough to just have good 153 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: content because good content is accessible so easily these days online. 154 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: So for me, when I'm critiquing new material that I'm delivering, 155 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: I think about the metric of laughs per minute and 156 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: that if I'm going for over a minute without a laugh, 157 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: then I need to inject some more humor. So that 158 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: is it for today's show. If you like this excerpt, 159 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: you might want to listen to my full chat with Jewels, 160 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: which I link to in the show notes. And if 161 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: you're enjoying how I work, I'd love it if you 162 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: could take five seconds, maybe right now, to leave a 163 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this episode. 164 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: Leaving reviews makes it easier for other people to find 165 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: this podcast, and it also happens to bring a huge 166 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: smile to your post's face. Yes, that is me, so 167 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: thank you in advance. If you're planning on leaving a review, 168 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: it is muchly appreciated. So that is it for today, 169 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.