1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: I think when you when you are a leader at 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: a company, and as the company grows from tens of 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: people to hundreds of people and then thousands of people, 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: what you have at your disposal to communicate to people 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: and illustrate symbolically kind of where your head is. That 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: the universe of that stuff just shrinks and shrinks as 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: the company grows and grows. And so I think that 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: with your outfit, you can you can use that as 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: a way to symbolically communicate to people. And I remember 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: when I was it was at Facebook one year, it 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: was a seminal year. It was two thousand and nine. 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg showed up to work January fourth or fifth, 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: and he was wearing a tie and as you can 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: imagine from Mark Zuckerberg, that's a that's a that stands out. 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: And he said, I'm wearing this every day for the 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: rest of the year because this is a serious year. 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out. 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: Of their day. 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist, 21 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: to optimize my work date. My guest today is Tim Kendall. 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: Tim was the president of Pinterest for three years, which 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: is a role that he stepped down from earlier this year, 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: and now he is the CEO of Moment, which is 26 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: a mobile app that helps reduce the amount of time 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: that you spend on your mobile phone, and Moments so 28 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 2: far has had around seven million users. I first met 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: Tim earlier this year when I hosted a dinner at 30 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: TED in Vancouver, and I was really intrigued by some 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: of the very creative hacks that he'd found for warding 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: off digital distractions in. 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: His own life. 34 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: I really loved this chat him and we cover a 35 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: whole bunch of things, ranging from some of the hacks 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: Tim uses for staying focused on his work, and some 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: of the interview workplace policies that he's introduced at Moment 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: and also wants to introduce a Moment in the future, 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: and also why he wore the same t shirt, well 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: not literally the same one, but one that had the 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: same message for four and a half years during his 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: time at Pinterest. So over to Tim to find out 43 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: about how he works. Tim, Welcome to the show. 44 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, Mantha. Thanks thanks for having me. 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: I want to start with what you wear, because I've 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: heard that you have a uniform that consists of a 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: T shirt that says focus. And I believe that this 48 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: started as a bet a few years ago. 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: Can you tell me how that came to be? 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I don't I need to 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: probably rediscover that that habit, because it did. I did 52 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: do it for almost four years, four and a half 53 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: years at pinterest. I wore the same shirt that said 54 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: not the not the literally the same shirt. I had 55 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: about twenty of them, but all of them said focus 56 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: on them, and so I wore it every day every 57 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: day to work that shirt that said focus on it 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: for four and a half years when I was when 59 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: I was at pinterest. And why did I do it? Well, 60 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: it did start as a bet, as you suggested, with 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: a guy that I worked with named Matt Crystal, who thought, well, 62 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: let's let's let's see how long we can We were 63 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: there was a ship, there was a theme around development. 64 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: We always had these sort of themes that we did 65 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: at pinterest, and we had a theme within the company 66 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: around focus, and so we started wearing these shirts to 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: kind of celebrate the fact that we were in the 68 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: midst of this theme, and then that that theme ended, 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: and Matt said, well, let's see who can wear theirs longer, 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: and that just kept escalating. And then and then I 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: got in front of the company and said, well, I'm 72 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: going to wear this until we have two hundred million users. 73 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: And by the way, at the time we had I 74 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: think we had ten or twenty or something, so it 75 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: was it was a ways out and I started I 76 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: got into this habit. People got so excited when I 77 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: said that I got into this bad habit of every 78 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: time I was talking to the company, I would kind 79 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: of up the ante. And so I ended up wearing 80 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: that shirt until the very until I ended up leaving 81 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: Pinterest in January. So but but at my new company, 82 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: I haven't. I'm I'm indulging in kind of wearing whatever 83 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: I want, which is kind of a kind of nice 84 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: because I didn't have that for a long time. 85 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: That is quite the story. 86 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: Philosophically, I think what I learned from it, and part 87 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: of the reason why I just kept it going was 88 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: I do think it was a I think when you 89 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: when you are a leader at a company me and 90 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: as the company grows from tens of people to hundreds 91 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: of people and then thousands of people. What you have 92 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: at your disposal to communicate to people and illustrate symbolically 93 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: kind of where your head is. That the universe of 94 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: that stuff just shrinks and shrinks as the company grows 95 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: and grows. And so I think that with your outfit, 96 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: you can use that as a way to symbolically communicate 97 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: to people. And I remember when I was it was 98 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: at Facebook one year, it was a seminal year. It 99 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: was two thousand and nine. Mark Zuckerberg showed up to 100 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: work January fourth or fifth, and he was wearing a tie, 101 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: and as you can imagine from Mark Zuckerberg's that stands 102 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: out and he said, I'm wearing this every day for 103 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: the rest of the year because this is a serious year. 104 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,239 Speaker 1: And that made a big impression on me. And all 105 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: he was doing really was wearing a tie every day. 106 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: But I think the impact and the symbolism of that 107 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: to the folks who were working with him and for him, 108 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: and so I think, you know, my own small way, 109 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: I was trying to do something similar with that with 110 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: that shirt. 111 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: And what impact do you think that the message of 112 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: focus had, Like did you get a lot of people 113 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: commenting like, what do you mean by focus? 114 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: How can I get better at focus? 115 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: Like? 116 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: What sort of reactions did that get from people? 117 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: Well, you bring up a good point. I mean we 118 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: were pretty clear. I was. I tried to be pretty 119 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: clear when I told people that I that I was 120 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: a wearing it and b y kept wearing it. That 121 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: The point was that I wanted everyone to remember that 122 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 1: most people, and god, I'm guilty of this myself, delude 123 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: themselves into thinking that they're focused. You know. They tell themselves, well, 124 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: there were a list of twenty things that I could do, 125 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: twenty projects that I could do. They cut half of 126 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: them and they say, God, good for me. I'm so focused. 127 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: And what I wanted to convey with a shirt was 128 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,559 Speaker 1: was actually that real focused was taking those twenty things 129 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: and only doing one that was real focus. And that 130 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: was something that you know, I had heard lots of leaders, 131 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: you know who'd built really amazing things for the world, 132 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: talk about Johnny I've has talked about this, the famous 133 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: designer at Apple, that you know, focus is having three 134 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: things that you are just in every part of your 135 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: body feel like you have to do and only picking one. 136 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: And people you know, I think come up with sacrificial 137 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: projects that they don't even care about, and they tell themselves, oh, 138 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm focused. I crossed that one off the list. But 139 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: it's hard, god. And so it was. It was to 140 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: remind other people of that ideas they as they conceived 141 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: of and built things at pinterest. And and it was 142 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: for myself because I don't think I battle this a lot. 143 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's you know, it's not like you're wear 144 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: a shirt for four years and you all of a 145 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: sudden are a focused person. It's a daily struggle for me. 146 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: I want to delve into that because I remember one 147 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: of the things when when we met a few months 148 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: ago over at ted, is that you told me this 149 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: story about how one of the ways that you help 150 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: keep focus on those around you and off like devices 151 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: like your mobile phone, is that you had a kitchen safe, 152 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 2: which is normally I think designed possibly for dieting, where 153 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: you can lock things away in this safe and not 154 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: be able to access, you know, perhaps treat kind of foods. 155 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: But you had a routine. 156 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: And I don't know if you still do this where 157 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: you talked about locking your phone and your family member's 158 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: phones away for a couple of hours every week night. 159 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: Can you tell me where that is up to? And 160 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: if I've actually remembered that correctly? 161 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's a good memory. So I it wasn't. 162 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: I didn't do this at work, although I did give 163 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: the product to a bunch of colleagues who at least 164 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: claimed they used it and loved it. But I was 165 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: really I mean, and I still struggle today, even though 166 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, we'll probably get into it later. The company 167 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm focused on now is trying to address this this 168 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: device addiction issue. I was struggling a lot with my 169 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: phone usage, you know, a few years ago. And one 170 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: of the things that I did some research on it, 171 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: and one of the kind of brute force approaches to 172 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: people who that they suggest for people who really have 173 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: trouble getting off their phones, especially at night when you're 174 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: around your family and you really you want to be 175 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: present with them, was this Kitchen Safe. I think the 176 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: company has renamed the product the CA Safe, because it 177 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: really they want to start to market it not just 178 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: as a phone, not not just as a device for dieting, 179 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: not just as this thing that you put cupcakes into 180 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: and then turn and a clock on and You can 181 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: turn this clock at the top to an hour, you 182 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: can turn it to four days, and it just counts down, 183 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: and there's no back door and there's no way to 184 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: get into it. You just have to wait till the 185 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: till the clock counts down and the thing unlocks. And 186 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: as you say, it was originally designed for dieting, but 187 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: then it's it's found this dual purpose in helping people 188 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: really keep themselves disciplined around using their device. And so 189 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: I have used it. I don't use it religiously right now. 190 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: The thing that works for me today is I have 191 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: a little like my house. I have an office and 192 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: I just basically when I leave that office before I 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: go have dinner with my family, I just leave my phone. 194 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: On my best nights, I leave my phone in there 195 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: and I don't go and get it until the next morning. 196 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: But that's effectively the same thing as putting it in 197 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: a kitchen, say from you know, six pm to six 198 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: am or six pm to pay a m And I 199 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: find it hard and I go through withdraw but I 200 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: but you know, I also think that it has a meaningful, 201 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: meaningfully meaningful impact on my relationship with my kids and 202 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: my wife. If I do that, and with myself, I 203 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: just feel kind of less anxious and less kind of 204 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: psychologically toxic if I can take a break like that 205 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: from from my phone. 206 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what do you do during the day? What 207 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: are your strategies during the day? And perhaps it might 208 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: be a good segue into the the app called Moment, 209 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: which you're nassy. Oh so perhaps for listeners that have 210 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 2: never come across Moment. And I think there are seven 211 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: million users or it has had seven million downloads, so 212 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 2: it's incredibly popular. 213 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit of an million people 214 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: have used to Yeah? So well, I got really, you know, 215 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: I think through my own affliction with phone usage, I 216 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: got I started to really develop a lot of passion 217 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: in my last year of interest around this problem that 218 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 1: I was having and I was noticing other people have, 219 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: which was these phones are obviously, on one hand, they're 220 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: a tremendous tool, and they do so many remarkable things 221 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: for us. They let us order dinner, they let us, 222 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, avoid traffic, all these wonderful things. But I 223 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: think used in excess, they're really toxic, and they're really 224 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: distracting and I think isolating, and I think what we 225 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: are trying to do at Moment is give you back 226 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: your time. So what Moment is is an app for 227 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: your phone ironically that tells you, helps you assess how 228 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: much you use your phone, and then coaches you to 229 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: really set guidelines around what is healthy versus unhealthy usage 230 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: of your phone based on your personal usage of very apps. 231 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: And then it helps hold you accountable to the usage 232 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: that you the usage levels that that you commit to. 233 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: And so that's the that's the service. And it was 234 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: started by a guy named Kevin Halesh about four years ago, 235 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: and he and I got connected in January and I 236 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: ended up acquiring the company from him earlier this year 237 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: and he and he and I are still working together. 238 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: He leads all of our product and engineering efforts and 239 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: I'm the CEO, and we're trying to you go after this, 240 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: go after this issue and really help help give people 241 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: their time back. And that is you know, it's interesting 242 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: we think about, well, how do we know we're successful. 243 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: The way we measure how well we're doing as a 244 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: company is we literally measure how much time we hand 245 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: back to people versus you know, the status quo versus 246 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: their baseline when they when they come into into moment 247 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, seven million people have used the product, 248 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: and every day we hand back versus people's sort of 249 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: status quote usage, we hand back people forty nine years 250 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,599 Speaker 1: of time. So for the folks that have actually engaged 251 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: in the coaching programs, which is about a half million people, 252 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: those specific people have gotten back, on average, about an 253 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: hour a day of their time. So when they come 254 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: to us, they're using their phone three point six hours 255 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: a day, and when they go through the coaching program 256 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: it you know that they're they're down to two and 257 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: a half hours a day. 258 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: Well that's quite quite remarkable. 259 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: Seven hours a week of time that you know, we 260 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: say they get to now, you know, utilize to go 261 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: do stuff that matters in their life, not necessarily the 262 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: stuff that's urgent and seductive, right that our phone is 263 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: so good at putting in front of us? 264 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: And how about for yourself? 265 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: What does like what you know, perhaps for the last 266 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: year since being involved in Moment, and perhaps in your 267 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: last year at pinterest, what what did your phone usage 268 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: look like on a work day? 269 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I really, you know, I think there's Look, 270 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: we're all works in progress, so we have good days 271 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: and bad days. I'll tell you what my bad days 272 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: look like? Man, bad days are are I'm I'm you know, 273 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: we talk about there's sort of different personas of people 274 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: that we see on moment and and one of the 275 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: personas we talk about is a compulsive checker. So these 276 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: are people who maybe don't spend you know, like I said, 277 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: three four or five hours a day on their phone, 278 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: but they still have a compulsion they feel they still 279 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: feel kind of psychologically toxic. And the reason that they 280 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: do is not because they spend so much time on 281 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: their phone, but because they pick it up so much. 282 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: So these are people that pick up their phone, you know, 283 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: one hundred two hundred times a day, which is a 284 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: surprising portion of all the people out there that that 285 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: are that are on their phones. And I know my 286 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: bad days fall into that camp of picking up my phone, 287 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: you know, close to one hundred times a day checking 288 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: it for various things. And maybe I'm responding to text 289 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: messages or maybe I'm responding to emails, but you know, 290 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: I might I might be it might be an interesting, 291 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: really interesting news cycle on something that I'm interested in, 292 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: and I just keep reading about it and it's there 293 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: isn't really any goal or objective that I'm achieving. I'm 294 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: just getting sucked in, and I'm letting myself get sucked in. 295 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: And I certainly am aware of it in the moment 296 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: that I'm doing something that isn't productive, doesn't serve any 297 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: of my long term objectives, but I'm just going to 298 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: kind of let myself indulge. You know. It's it's the 299 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: analog of you know, if you're if you're trying to 300 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: be disciplined with eating, you you splurge, or if you're 301 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: trying to stand an exercise regimen, you take the take 302 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: the day off. And so those are that's my bad 303 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: day my good days. You know, I can I can 304 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: leave the phone well my good nights. Like I said, 305 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: I leave my phone in my in my office and 306 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't pick up again until eight eight the next morning. 307 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: And during the day, I'm really trying not to use 308 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: it for email or texting and made what I try 309 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: to what I think the most health the usage is 310 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: for me is just phone calls when needed, if there's 311 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: an incoming call that I need to take, or looking 312 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: at my calendar if I'm kind of on the go. 313 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 2: What determines for you whether you have a good or 314 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 2: bad day, because I've read that, like you, you've got 315 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: some morning rituals that you do which I'd love to 316 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: delve into, but like, have you worked out what? Like 317 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 2: is there are the things that you can do in 318 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: the morning that set you up to have a good, 319 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 2: focused day or yeah, like what does it look like? 320 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, Look, I'm always I always do 321 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: better if if I work out in the morning, if 322 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: I don't pick up my phone first thing in the morning. 323 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the longer that I can I can have 324 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: time that's focused on kind of thinking and either writing 325 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: or planning a product and not getting into the day 326 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: to day of one of my inboxes, the better I am. 327 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I love that you and I were just 328 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: communicating a little bit to coordinate for this show. And 329 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: the fact that you send a morning out of office 330 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: while you do your work, I think is just brilliant. 331 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: I love it. I think that I think everybody when 332 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: when I was at Pinterest, one of the things I 333 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: really wanted to do and it would be really appropriate 334 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: to do this at moment, so maybe we'll maybe we'll 335 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: explore it when we get a little bit bigger. Is 336 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: create a dedicated period of time where everybody is offline, 337 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: just say hey, come into work, let's come in a 338 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: dator and I'm like normal people who work do. But 339 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: let's do some different. Let's let's actually turn off the internet. 340 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 1: Let's turn off connectivity and just use that time to 341 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: think about the problem at hand, our task at hand, 342 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: and do focus, dedicated, deliberate work around that as opposed 343 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: to satisfying this short term you know, dopamine fueled feedback 344 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: loop that that email does so well. 345 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I'm curious, like to have those good mornings. 346 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: Is there preparation that you do the day before or 347 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: the night before that lead to a really good, focused 348 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: morning for you? 349 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think look, clearly, sleep in general, 350 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 1: you know, I think so there's no question that I 351 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: think that there is a it feels it feels like 352 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: things are moving away from this. I think there was 353 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: definitely a school of thought for many years that you know, 354 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: the really productive, you know, and productive folks and the 355 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: achievers in the world, they just don't sleep as much 356 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: as the rest of us. And I think that that 357 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: that notion is getting as of late, I think that 358 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: notion is really getting rejected by people. And because there 359 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: are lots of leaders that are that are you know, 360 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: in the past several years that have come out and said, look, 361 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: one of my most important fundamental things that I do 362 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: to stay productive and be a great leader and be 363 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: a great manager and build great solutions and technologies because 364 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: I get a lot of sleep, you know. Bezos Jeff 365 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: Bezos said recently in the last six months or so, 366 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: he sleeps I think eight or nine hours a night. 367 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: You know, I try to get at least at least 368 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: eight hours a night. I have heard. I don't know 369 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: this directly because I don't know him, but Avan Spiegel 370 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: at Snap, the CEO and founder Snap, sleeps ten hours 371 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: a night. And so I'm giving you a long answer 372 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: to your question. But but I think the biggest thing 373 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: the night before is getting in bed early. I think 374 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: it's getting in bed early without my phone, because that 375 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: that factors into how well I sleep, Getting in bed 376 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: early without my phone with a book, reading, reading that 377 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: book for a little bit, and then going to sleep 378 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: at nine or ten o'clock and then and then you know, 379 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: I think getting up, you know, six six o'clockish ideally, 380 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: and then you know, getting on with my day. But 381 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: I don't, you know, I've heard some of your other guests. 382 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: I know that there's some people who I think are 383 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: probably more Type A than me, who do a bunch 384 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: of prep and organization but the night before, and I 385 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: certainly admire those people. I just I don't have the 386 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: I don't have the discipline. 387 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: I think that that makes you sound more human, although 388 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: I did read it. I did read that you take 389 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: daily ice baths, which doesn't sound very human. 390 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: Can you tell me is that true? Do you still 391 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 3: do that? 392 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: It is? It is true, and I did it, I 393 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: probably don't today i'm doing it. I'm probably doing it 394 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: four times, five times a week, so I'm not doing 395 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: it as religiously I got. I got to a pretty 396 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: compulsive place. I think, you know a year ago where 397 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: I was doing it every day and it was like 398 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: my cup of coffee. But yeah, I've gotten this habit. 399 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: It really started three or four years ago when I 400 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: was I was working out in the morning and I 401 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: would take a shower and I'd get to work and 402 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: I would still actually be perspiring. And someone told me, oh, 403 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: you should just take a cold shower when you shower 404 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: at the gym, don't take a warm shower. So I 405 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: started doing that, and I noticed I felt really good. 406 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: I felt like there were like indorphins getting released or 407 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: something was going on. And then and then so I 408 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: just started re searching it, and I learned about this 409 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: huge community that loves to take cold showers. But then 410 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: it escalated and now I have a custom ice tub 411 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: that I it's not even a nice tub, it's just 412 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: a tub of water in my backyard that has a 413 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: cooler that we've built, a chiller that we've built that 414 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: chills the water down to anywhere between kind of thirty 415 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: nine and forty one degrees. And so what I do 416 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: on the morning, I'll get out of bed, I'll actually 417 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: take a shower first, and then a warm shower first, 418 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: and then get in get in the cold tub for 419 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: five minutes, and then and then get out. And if 420 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: you can get you know, into that mode. And by 421 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: the way, I think taking cold showers probably just as effective. 422 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: It really level sets you, and I think grounds you. 423 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: And also I think there's a little bit of you know, 424 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: taking on a really tough emotional psychological challenge first thing 425 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: in the morning, which is getting into that that freezing 426 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: water and not really wanting to do it. Maybe in 427 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: your head, kind of doubting whether you're going to be 428 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: able to make it five minutes and then doing it, 429 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: and that's what you've that's the first thing you've accomplished. 430 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: And then there's just a lot of stuff that happens 431 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: chemically as a result of of going in the ice 432 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: bath or all these endorphins that get released, you feel great. 433 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: It's it's really energizing. And what I found is that 434 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: it sustains. It's not just it's not just twenty minutes 435 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: after you get out. It's for several hours. 436 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: That I admire that I've tried taking cold showers myself 437 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 2: and I can't even fail like a ten second cold shower. 438 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: Sorry, I know, I know. Well, it's tough. You certainly 439 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: have to. It's certainly something that you you acquire or 440 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: time and get used to. But yeah, it's it's it's 441 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: it's fun, but no question, it's it's tough, especially to 442 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: get started. 443 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine. 444 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: I want to move on to your email habits, which 445 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: which you kind of I guess we sort of touched 446 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: on earlier. But what does like what's your relationship like 447 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 2: with your inbox and like do you do you kind 448 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 2: of have a rhythm as to how you check email, Like, 449 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 2: what does that look like in your world? 450 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Look, I think it's I think I've 451 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: got my good email days and my bad email days, 452 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm answering every question that way 453 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: for you. But it's just my reality, you know. I 454 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: think the good email days, I'm just batching. So I'm 455 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: getting on email at some interval. Ideally it would be predetermined, 456 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: meaning I'm going to get on email every few hours, 457 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: get through them, and then and then you know, not 458 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: go back to email for several hours. And I do 459 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: have in the mail client on my iPhone you can 460 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: set within contacts of dips, so you can set people 461 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: who for whom it's really important that when they email 462 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: you that you get notified, and so you can actually 463 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: set it up on your on your iPhone through their 464 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: mail app that only you know, your partner and your 465 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: boss or your board member and maybe someone else who's 466 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, let's say a journalist that I'm trying to 467 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: get in touch with for an interview. Those people will 468 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: when they email me my phone will will will actually 469 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: notify me and then I'm prompted. So in between those 470 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: periods in which I'm actually deliberately checking my inbox. I'm 471 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: notified proactively if one of those people emails me, and 472 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: so I find that, you know, on good days, really 473 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: helpful because what then I'm able to do is during 474 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: that period in which I'm not in my inbox, I 475 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: know that if there is something urgent that comes up 476 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: from one of those people, I'm going to hear about 477 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: it because my phone's going to buzz. There is a 478 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: new company that I'm not sure how new it is. 479 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: Last couple of months, they've been pushing out their product 480 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: called Superhuman that has a new email client that is 481 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: incredibly fast. So they've really optimized it to be just 482 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, one one or milliseconds of latency that's the max. 483 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: So it's just it just feels very crisp and fast 484 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: when you're using it, and it has all sorts of 485 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: really powerful shortcuts, more powerful than what the shortcuts you 486 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: get in Gmail. You know, to give you a quick example, 487 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: one of the things that you can do is, you know, 488 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: if I want to if I get an email saying, hey, 489 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to set up a meeting with you, I 490 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: can with two key strokes basically respond with something that 491 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: automatically types great, we'll set something up. It copies in 492 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: my EA, and then it types your here's my eshana, 493 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 1: she will go ahead and set this up, and then 494 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: it sends it. So with just two keystrokes, it does 495 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: all of that. And it does something similar if you 496 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: get introduced to someone, so it has an auto an 497 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: auto acceptance of an introduction. So someone introduces you to 498 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: someone else, and what it does is it understands that 499 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: who introduced tomb and then it puts that person in 500 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: the reply, puts that person on BCC automatically, and then 501 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: auto types your response, Hey, great to meet you. Let's 502 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: set up some time, what works for you, something like that, 503 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: and then it just. 504 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 3: Sends that sounds amazing. 505 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called Superhuman. It's it's it's started by some 506 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: folks and you know around here, and they're they're slowly 507 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: scaling it out and they're they're charging for it because 508 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: they claim, you know, it's it's creating value. And I've 509 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: been using it for three weeks or so, and I 510 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: love it. I think it's I think it's terrific. And 511 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: it does some some other things as well that are useful. 512 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: It schedules emails which I which I like. You know, 513 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: one of the things at moment that we feel really 514 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: strongly about is just setting up really really firm boundaries 515 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: around what what is work time and what isn't And 516 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: so it's really important as the leader of the company 517 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: that I'm not to me that I'm not sending email 518 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: at night, and I'm not sending email on the weekends 519 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: at all under any circumstances except for you know a 520 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: few outlier ones like like the services down and so 521 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: what's nice is that if I but but if I'm 522 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm working on my own which I might do, I 523 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: might read an article or something and more decide I 524 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: want to send it to someone. I can queue that 525 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: up and schedule it to send on Monday at nine am, 526 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: even though at that very moment it's Saturday night at 527 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: eight pm. 528 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: That's sounds that's very cool, and I like that that 529 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: that rule that you're setting at moment, I kind of 530 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: I want to explore more about that, But I also 531 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: want to know what other apps or software are you 532 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 2: using or hearing about that do help manage time better 533 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: and a in pre productivity. 534 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: There's a group of folks that just started a calendar 535 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 1: an automated kind of AI powered calendar that I haven't used, 536 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: but it's a credible group of folks. It's the CIO 537 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: former CEO of Facebook that built this with it with 538 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: a Google engineer that I'm eager to look at because 539 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: I do think that there's the way that we schedule 540 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: in calendar things is still not very sophisticated today. 541 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: And do you know what that one's called? That calendar app. 542 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: That calendar company is called Woven. 543 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: Woven okay, and they just. 544 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: Launched last week and I don't know much about it 545 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: other than that the description was cool. It's a pretty 546 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: cool name too, and they're they're trying to apply artificial 547 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: intelligence to recommend optimal meeting times to people, which you know, 548 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: as a as a as a solution headline sounds pretty interesting. 549 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: I like that. 550 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: And and back on the topic of Moment and perhaps 551 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: some of the rules or rituals that you're trying to 552 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: create for the company that I guess, you know, create 553 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: the kind of workplace culture that would support the sort 554 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: of work that Moment is doing in the world. What 555 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: are the other things that you're doing or thinking about 556 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: doing in that respect? 557 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: You know, I think that there is a conventional wisdom 558 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: in technology and these tech companies and I, as you know, 559 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,239 Speaker 1: I've been at a handful of them, is you know, 560 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: you just you gotta work harder, you got to throw 561 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: more hours at the problem, because that's what your competitors 562 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: are doing, and if you don't do it, you're going 563 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: to lose. And so it's a very fear based, fear 564 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: based and reactionary approach to getting work done and building 565 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: a product, as opposed to and more of kind of 566 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: a mercenary approach, quite frankly, And what we're really trying 567 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: to do at moment is establish much more of a 568 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: missionary approach to how we're thinking about what we're trying 569 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: to do for people, but also you know, really really 570 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: trying to establish sort of a missionary approach for each 571 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: of our lives, for the folks that work at the company. So, 572 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: you know, we have thought we haven't done anything in 573 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: this regard, but I can sort of think out loud 574 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: here a little bit with you, which is that I've 575 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: thought about whether it makes sense to reduce the number 576 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: of days that we actually deliberately work in the week. 577 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: So there's some examples of companies that only have kind 578 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: of proper and official work days, four days, four out 579 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: of the five classic work days that actually are seeing 580 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: tremendous results and productivity and improve morale. You know, there's another, 581 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: I think probably even more innovative idea of which is 582 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: a work day that it's for sure parent centric. But 583 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: one of the things that we hear from parents are 584 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: who are stay at home parents actually who are incredibly 585 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: qualified professionally, but don't go back to the workforce in 586 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: kind of a full time, dedicated way. The reason they 587 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: don't is that they want to, and it's perfectly understandable 588 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: as a parent. They want to drop off their kids 589 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: at school and they want to pick them up. And 590 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: for them to have a job that would allow that 591 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: would require work to kind of notionally start it nine 592 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: in the morning and be over it two thirty. And 593 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting to think about accommodating that 594 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: parent with an environment that would accommodate that and potentially 595 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: compensate them like a full time employee and just say, hey, 596 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: we want to enable this, we want to enable this lifestyle, 597 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: and we're making a bet that you know, notwithstanding the 598 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: fact that you're not working a classic nine to five day, 599 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: you're going to be able to contribute just as well 600 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: and perhaps be grateful for the opportunity and by virtue 601 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: of that, you know, maybe maybe contribute more greatly than 602 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: someone who is, you know, not work in more hours, 603 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: but you know, isn't isn't doesn't have kind of that 604 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: mindset of a parent. 605 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. I'll be very curious to say 606 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: what you do with that. And looking, we've only got 607 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: a few minutes left, but I want to finish just 608 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 2: with some kind of rapid fire questions to understand, like 609 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 2: what information are. 610 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 3: You consuming right now? Because I think. 611 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 2: There's so much out there and it's so hard for 612 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: the average person to know what do you consume? So 613 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 2: to start with books, What what is like a standout 614 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: book or two that you've read this year that's had 615 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: an impact on how you've thought think about things. 616 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I love uh Ray Dalio's book Principles, and 617 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: I've probably read that three times this year because I 618 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: just think it's full of such salient advice on how 619 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: to live life and see the world. So I love, 620 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: I love that and recommend that, strongly recommend that to 621 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: anyone in any field because I just think he sees 622 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: the world in a very unique and correct way. The 623 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: book that I'm about halfway through now, which is one 624 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: of the more profound books I've read in a long time, 625 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: is this book called, Uh, Why Buddhism Is True? And 626 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: I think, what do I find that's so profound about that? 627 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: I think the book he talks a lot about evolutionary psychology, 628 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: which I am not that familiar with, but so in 629 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: this book, I'm getting a kind of a lesson in 630 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: evolutionary psychology. But it's just so help It's been very 631 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: helpful for me to understand that part of the reason 632 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: that I react the way I react in certain situations 633 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: has to do with natural selection and was appropriate for 634 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: the natural selection that led to you know, you know, 635 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: the humankind two thousand years ago and how we operated 636 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: and tribes and so forth. But isn't actually that helpful 637 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: of a set of traits and reactions to have in 638 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: this modern day. So one of the examples that he 639 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: gives is that, you know, is road rage, for instance, 640 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: and you know, we all get you know, we get 641 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: furious when people cut us off in traffic, and you know, 642 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: some people get really furious and do awful, violent things. 643 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: But his point is that we all get angry, and 644 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: he contends that the reason we get angry, if you 645 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: look at through the lens of evolutionary psychology, is that 646 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: is that we've been They've created a personal front, right, 647 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: And so if you think about living in a tribe 648 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: of one hundred hundred and fifty people, it would be 649 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: someone in your tribe that did that, and you would 650 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: not only need to show them that you were more dominant, 651 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: but you'd need to show the other people who were 652 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: watching this whole episode see that you're more dominant, because 653 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: that would then lead to your higher likelihood of your 654 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: being able to pass your genes along, which was the 655 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: whole natural selection thing. And his point is that in 656 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: the context of road Ridge, the person who cut you 657 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: off you're never going to see again, and the people 658 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: around you you're never going to see around see again. 659 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: So it's completely logical your instinctual reaction to that situation. 660 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: And he also he talks a little bit about and 661 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: I think there's just lots of I think there are 662 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: lots of situations where we as human beings fall into 663 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: a trap of reacting a certain way, and or we 664 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: perceive a threat a professional a threat, and a professional 665 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: context as a our brain perceives as a physical threat, 666 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: and so we re react in that way when in 667 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: fact it's not. It's not a physical threat at all. 668 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: It's someone giving you constructive feedback about how you give 669 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: a presentation. And so I think, Why Buddhist Mistress written 670 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: by a guy named Robert Wright, and it's a bestseller, 671 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: and it is it's certainly the most profound book I've 672 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: read in a few years. 673 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 3: Fantastic. I'm definitely going to check that out. 674 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: You know, if I'm having a good day in terms 675 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: of productivity and mental clarity, I'm not reading a lot 676 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: of news. In fact, hopefully i'm reading no news. So 677 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: I just think in general, the day to day news 678 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: is very noisy and not particularly useful, and when you 679 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: think about in the scheme of what you want to 680 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: ultimately achieve, it creates a very very short term satisfaction 681 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: in terms of kind of knowing, but doesn't really create 682 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: any meaningful value in the medium and long term. And 683 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: so I do really try to challenge myself not to 684 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 1: consume or watch much news. 685 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: I must say I'm exactly the same and feel very 686 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 2: similar about the news. Now we are out of time. 687 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 2: That is flowing bit. 688 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 3: I've just loved chatting with you, Tim. 689 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: Likewise, Yeah, for. 690 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 2: People that are listening and they want to find out 691 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 2: more about you or moments like where should they go, 692 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: what should they do? 693 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: Well they can if they're interested in using the app, 694 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: they can just go to the Apple App Store has 695 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: it now so you can just search for a moment 696 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: and you can download it and if you search for 697 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: a moment, it's the top app that'll come up and 698 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: the search results. If you want to learn more about 699 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: the company we are hiring, you can find us at 700 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: inthemoment dot io and we will be on Android probably 701 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: in a week or two. 702 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 2: Fantastic, and we'll link to all that in the show 703 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 2: notes as well. 704 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 1: Well. 705 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Tim, Thank you. 706 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 2: Hello there. That is it for today's episode. I hope 707 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 2: you liked my chat with Tim and got some useful 708 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 2: tips and tricks from the conversation. There are links to 709 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,399 Speaker 2: all of the different software and books and so forth 710 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 2: that he mentioned in the show notes. And if you 711 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 2: are still listening and you enjoyed this episode, I would 712 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 2: love it if you would just pause this podcast for 713 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 2: a moment and give it a review in iTunes. 714 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 3: You can do that by giving it. 715 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: A star rating, or even you can write a review, 716 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 2: and my goodness, I love reading reviews that people write. 717 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 2: It brings a huge smile to my face whenever I 718 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 2: get to read a new one. So if you'd like 719 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 2: to do that, that would be simply awesome. And if 720 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 2: you're not already a subscriber to this podcast, but you 721 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 2: enjoyed this episode, you might want to hit the subscribe 722 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 2: button in iTunes and you'll be alerted whenever a new 723 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 2: episode lands. 724 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,959 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening and see you next time.