1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: In an effort to make time for ourselves, many of 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: us fallback on using to do lists and time blocking, 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: but often these sorts of strategies can end up with 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: the same result, getting lost in chasing productivity. So how 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: do we make time for the things that truly count? 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: Joining me for a third time on How I Work 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: is Oliver Berkman, one of my favorite writers. You might 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: have come across Oliver through the international bestseller four one 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: thousand Weeks, time Management for Mortals, or his regular columns 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: for The Guardian, But what I love most about Oliver's 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: work is that he flips traditional productivity advice on its 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: head and gives a completely different way of looking at 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: how we use our time. With his new book Meditation 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: for Mortals four Weeks to Embrace your limitations and Make 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: Time for What Counts, which is out now, Oliver has 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about how we can all claw 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: back time for the things that really matter. In this episode, 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: we explore the mindset you should be using when you 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: first approach a task if you wanted to be achieved easily, 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: and why allowing yourself to be distracted can actually create 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: a positive result. We also chat about the strategy you 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: should be utilizing instead of a to do list if 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: you want to get the most out of your day. 24 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. Oliver's new book, Meditation for Mortals is packed 27 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: full of wisdom and advice. So I wanted to know 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: of everything that Oliver wrote about, which pieces of advice 29 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: really stuck with him and changed him the most. 30 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: I seem not able to write anything other than what 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: feels most compelling to me on the day that I'm 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: writing it. 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 3: And that applies to the whole book in the sense that, 34 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: like you. 35 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: Know, these are the things I have to grapple with, 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: and then it applies on the level of individual chapters 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: through the process of writing a book. So it feels 38 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: like the answer that changes every day basically. But in 39 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: terms of specifics, this book is organized into four weeks, 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: as you know, and with a sort of short chapter 41 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: per day for each of those weeks. Not that I 42 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: can control how people actually read it, but that's the 43 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: sort of idea. And the third week in there is 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: called letting Go, and it's about the importance of learning 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: to sort of let things happen as a sort of 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: compliment to making them happen, and kind of unclenching from 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: life a bit. And basically all of that material is 48 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: the stuff I sort of needed the most at the 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: point that I was putting that together, and you know 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: still now, so all that stuff about, for example, the 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: willingness to let things be easy and not to sort 52 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: of head into big projects or life stages or anything 53 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: like that with the kind of assumption that they must 54 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: be going to be grueling and take a lot of 55 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 2: unpleasant effort. That means a lot to me because it's 56 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: still one of the ones that I sort of grapple 57 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: with the most. 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: I suppose I love that I did write that down. 59 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: Actually it's something I wanted to delve into because it's 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: a question that I sometimes think about, and I've written 61 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: it here. What if this might be a lot easier 62 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: than I'd been assuming, I think was the wording from 63 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: the book, and I was actually curious, like, well, how 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: do you apply it every day? But I also wanted 65 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: to know to this book project, and particularly following up 66 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: on four thousand Weeks, which was such a mega hit 67 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: around the world, and I mean, you've written several books, 68 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: and so it wasn't like that second album syndrome they 69 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: talk about for musicians. Maybe this is like your fourth 70 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: or fifth album syndrome. But I wanted to know, for 71 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: this project in particular, how did you apply that advice 72 00:03:58,160 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: and did you? 73 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: Well, No, it was a bit like say, album syndrome, 74 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: because you know, it's true that I had written a 75 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: previous book, The Antidote, and also a collection of columns 76 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: called Help, which was a book and is a book, 77 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: but I hadn't had to write in the same way, right, 78 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: because it was just a question of collecting and editing 79 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 2: some previously written material. But certainly four thousand Weeks was 80 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 2: far and away the most sort of successful thing that 81 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: I'd written at the point that it was published. And 82 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 2: so yeah, I think there was a very sort of cliched, 83 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: completely predictable and rather tiresome to talk too much about 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: phenomenon where I sort of froze a bit and thought like, 85 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: oh dear, now, if I mess up, more people going 86 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: to be watching. So I did kind of a little 87 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: bit to some extent sort of freeze and headlights. And 88 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: it was interesting because it sort of brought into my 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: writing process a lot of the questions that I was 90 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: already focused on in what I wanted to put into 91 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: the book, and it sort. 92 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: Of made them very, very alive. 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 2: And I've found this in the past, right, something about 94 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: the process of writing books will sort of fall ground 95 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: the things that you're grappling with in the substance of 96 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: the book, and actually, you know, you end up, I think, 97 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: and I hope being able to express them more authentically 98 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: because you actually sort of have to go through a 99 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: version of that struggle to get the book written. And 100 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: I did have to find ways to allow the possibility 101 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: that it was more doable than I thought. But the 102 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: basic gist of that was to sort of keep coming 103 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: back and back and back. I don't think there's a 104 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: single way to flip the switch, but keep coming back 105 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 2: to this thought that maybe what I was ready to 106 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: do and able to do in terms of the next 107 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: paragraph in the next chapter was what needed to be done. 108 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: And now, just like in your day to day work, 109 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: how do you apply that principle of just having things 110 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: be a whole lot easier than you'd otherwise assume. 111 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 2: I mean, a couple of things come to mind. One 112 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: is that I do think, and I wish this wasn't 113 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: the case, but I do think that a lot of 114 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 2: these insights are just a matter of returning to them 115 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 2: and returning to them and returning to them and gradually 116 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: sort of strengthening the mental muscle that allows you to 117 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: remember them. So it's sort of catching yourself from one 118 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: minute to the next. And it's actually quite sort of 119 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: physical for me, right, I sort of I find that 120 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: I'm actually sort of tensed against the work. It's in 121 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 2: my musculature somehow, and catching yourself doing that and just 122 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: sort of stepping back from it and thinking like, oh, 123 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 2: maybe that's not necessary is very powerful maybe to get 124 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: a little bit more practical. The other thing that makes 125 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: a big difference there is the idea of really just 126 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 2: thinking about the very next thing and the very next thing, 127 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: so sort of using methods of productivity, methods of planning 128 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: the day, And there are lots of different ones that 129 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: having common this focus on like, Okay, what's the next small, 130 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: completable thing, the sort of radically doable little task that 131 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 2: I want to pick and then put into practice. Now, 132 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: you can't do things like write a book or even 133 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: write a chapter. You can do things like that come 134 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: up with a rough plan for the first half of 135 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: the chapter, and that's when I can get it down 136 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: underneath that threshold of what feels doable, back into that 137 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: easier way of working. 138 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: I love that idea of picking the thing that feels 139 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: radically doable that will stick with me. I think something 140 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: else that this relates to, and I want to say 141 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: this might have been in the Letting Go section is 142 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: around developing a taste for problems, and you write about 143 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: how we kind of go through life and think, oh, 144 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: one day all the problems will be gone and there 145 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: will just be no problems to deal with, but of 146 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: course we know that that is not the case. It's 147 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: like it's so simple, but it's also it's like it's 148 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: quite profound when you actually think about it. I want 149 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: to know, like, how does that one resonate for you, 150 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: like on a day to day basis. Is it one 151 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: of those things that you do just keep coming back to, 152 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: because I was very curious about that. 153 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: I write in the book about this story that Sam 154 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: Harris tells about, you know, being in coffee. I think 155 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: it is a lunch with a friend one day and 156 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: going on and on about his problems. He was addressing 157 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: in his work or whatever it was, and her interrupting 158 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: him in mid flow and saying, hold on, are you 159 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: still under the impression you're going to get to the 160 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: part of your life where you don't have any problems? 161 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 2: And he sort of recounts the experience of realizing like, oh, yes, 162 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: there is kind of something in the stance I've had 163 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,239 Speaker 2: towards life that implies, yeah, not only that a given 164 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: problem might be difficult depending on its content, but that 165 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: I shouldn't have problems. I'm trying to get through to 166 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: the point in life where there aren't problems. And I 167 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: sort of explain in the book why this isn't going 168 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: to happen, and you wouldn't want it to happen, right. 169 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: There are certainly specific kinds of problems that you wouldn't 170 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: wish on anybody, But the sort of sheer existence of 171 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: problems on some level is the synonymous with having meaningful 172 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: work ahead of you. But I try increasingly to have 173 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: some kind of direction, have some kind of vision. I 174 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: don't it's not purely about just stumbling through the dark, 175 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: but not to try very hard to link that up 176 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 2: to moment moment action. So I'm really trying, and it's 177 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: very much a work in progress, but I'm really trying 178 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: to combine that idea of like having a fairly clear 179 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: sense of what I'm trying to create here with a 180 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: very very much more intuitive and spontaneous even sense of like, Okay, 181 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: what feels like the right thing to do next. 182 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: I want to talk about worrying, and you talk about 183 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: this idea of most of the bridges that we worry 184 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: about never end up being crossed. Can you tell me 185 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: more about that, and just on a day to day basis, 186 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: how do you live that? Because I really struggle with 187 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: that one. 188 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, me too, and that's why it was interesting 189 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: for me to write about it. The worry is kind 190 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: of fascinating, and I think one way of understanding worry 191 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: is that it's the sort of attempt by a human 192 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: being who is inherently limited to the present moment. One 193 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: of the many ways in which were limited is sort 194 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: of temporarily localized. We wish we could sort of also 195 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: be in the future checking up on it, making sure 196 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: that everything's going to be fine, but we can't, and 197 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: so worry is this sort of mental discomfort that arises 198 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: from trying to repeatedly sort of get out there and 199 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: secure a place in time that we're not actually in 200 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: and never are in. And you know, if I wanted 201 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: to get sort of evolutionary psychology about it, which I 202 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: don't usually want to do very much, but you know, 203 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: you could see how perhaps we sort of evolved in 204 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 2: an environment where where having that concern and then dealing 205 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: with it was something that happened in a very short order. 206 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: Like you hear a sound, you're worried about it, you 207 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: check it out, you realize it's no threat to your safety. 208 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: Now we live in this world that's been called a 209 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 2: you know, delayed return environment, where the thing you're worrying 210 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: about could well be whether how an editor will respond 211 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: to a pitch you've made sometime in the next four weeks, 212 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: or whether an attempt to purchase a house will go 213 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: through at some point in the next two months. You know, 214 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 2: all these kinds of slow things. Whether worry just has 215 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: no to go, It doesn't motivate a quick action to 216 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 2: get to deal with the worry, It just sort of curdle. 217 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: And I think the thing about crossing bridges is, yeah, 218 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: there's another way of making the same point. Really we're 219 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: trying to sort of think through all the things that 220 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: could go wrong, think our way through what we do, 221 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 2: and reassure ourselves that that will have gone okay if 222 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: that happens. You can't ever be certain that something goes 223 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: okay until it's gone okay. So trying to cross bridges 224 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: before you get to them, in that sense, is just 225 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: a recipe for that kind of unpleasant, anxious state of constantly, 226 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 2: repetitively trying to do it and failing. There are all 227 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: sorts of ideas in cognitive therapy and elsewhere about you know, 228 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: scheduling a time of day in which to worry and 229 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: things like this, and I think it does help some 230 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: people to do something like that. The version of that 231 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: that I find helpful is to market date in my 232 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: calendar maybe three four weeks in the future, to sort 233 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: of remind myself to focus again on that topic. And 234 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: I find that knowing that that's there and it's coming 235 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: up in the calendar is incredibly powerful in terms of 236 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: enabling me to let go of it in the present. 237 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: If it's still a big issue four weeks from now, 238 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: then I will kick into worrying about it again. I 239 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: sort of on some level I'm concerned that if I 240 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: were to stop worrying about it, I might completely forget 241 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: about it. Right, And it's wild right as parents, if 242 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: you're worried about some issue with your child's welfare, like, 243 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: I'm not going to forget about that, it's ridiculous. But 244 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: some part of me doesn't trust myself. And it's like, 245 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: if I let go and just got into the thing 246 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: I was working on today, maybe like ten years later, 247 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: I'd be like, oh, no, everything's gone terribly wrong in 248 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: life because I completely failed to attend to this thing. 249 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: So putting that kind of three or four weeks ahead 250 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: thing in I find really effective because then I can 251 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: be like, Okay, just in case I completely forget about 252 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: this important thing, it will come back into my world. 253 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: I love that I've experimented myself with having a worry 254 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: least and then setting a daily worry time and confining 255 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: my worrying to that time of day, and I found 256 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: that quite effective. But what I like about what you've 257 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: just suggested is that it's almost like a test of 258 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: a hypothesis. And the more and more you're like, if 259 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: everything you worry about you actually just put in the 260 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: diary to spend some time thinking about a couple of 261 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: weeks from today, and then every time you get to 262 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: those things, like nine times out of ten, you're going 263 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: to think, what was I even worrying about that never 264 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: eventuated into anything, which I feel then feeds, you know, 265 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: the like a more sensible hypothesis and theory that actually 266 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: I worry about things that I don't even need to 267 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: be spending time worrying about. So I really I enjoy that. 268 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 2: Yes, and even in the one time out of ten, right, 269 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: then it comes around and you're like, Okay, what are 270 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: some the chances are you'll be in a better place 271 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: to just sort of figure out some actions that you 272 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: could take relative to it. 273 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, now you're right. Even though you're I would 274 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: say an anti productivity guru if that is a thing, 275 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: you do have some really good pieces of advice around 276 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: how we can I guess, make the best use of 277 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: our time and think differently about things. And I want 278 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: to talk more about this idea of treating your to 279 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: do list as a menu. Can you tell me more 280 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: about that? 281 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: So I guess where this started off in my thinking 282 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: is in another chapter of this book where I'm talking 283 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: about not to do lists, but like you're sort of 284 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: to read pile or your digital folder of articles save 285 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: to read later, and how not very much reflection on 286 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: how content works in the twenty first century will reveal 287 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: that this is essentially an endless list. The better technology 288 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: gets at filtering information, the more stuff we find coming 289 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: our way that we feel like we really need to 290 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: read or would be really important for our jobs or something. 291 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: And I wrote then about how it can be really 292 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: helpful to see that kind of collection of things not 293 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: as a bucket but as a river. Right, So this 294 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: is just an possibly helpful analogy, not as something you've 295 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: got deal with an empty but as a sort of 296 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: flow of things that goes by you, and your only 297 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: job is to pick a few things that seem interesting 298 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: and not feel guilty about the ones that go by. 299 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: And I find that very useful in my own approach 300 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: to literally that topic. You know, the four hundred articles 301 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: that I've got stored in a read it later app 302 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: If I think that it's my job to get through them, firstly, 303 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: I won't approach them in the most creatively helpful or 304 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: enjoyable way. But secondly, also like that's not the end 305 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: of it. There'll be another four hundred in a short time. 306 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: So treating them as like, well, what actually still feels 307 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: compelling and let the rest go is much more powerful. 308 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 2: But the more I thought about this, the more I 309 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: realize that you know, in a sense, every list of things, 310 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: even things that feel much more obligatory than a to 311 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: read pile, every list of things has the same character 312 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: because if there are more things that you could meaningfully 313 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: usefully do with a day, then you will be able 314 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: to actually do with the day. Then you are in 315 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: fact picking items for now and letting the rest go, 316 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: whether you like it or not. So to switch screech 317 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: of breaks, to switch metaphor into menus. The point there 318 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: is that we don't get stressed by a rest Most 319 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: people anyway don't get stressed by a restaurant menu. And 320 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: if you do get stressed, it's not because you think 321 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: it's your job to get through the whole list right 322 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: at a single sitting. The fact that a restaurant menu 323 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: is long and you get to pick a few things 324 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: from it is kind of the point of a restaurant 325 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: menu and what makes it pleasurable. And you can actually 326 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: see that the same thing applies to our to do lists, 327 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: right because obviously a lot of the things we're going 328 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: to be doing are not necessarily going to be as 329 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: fun as eating a delicious meal. But if there's more 330 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: that we could do than we're going to get to 331 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: do in a day, then by definition, what you're doing 332 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: when you look at a do list is picking a 333 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: few items and choosing a few things that feel most compelling, 334 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: most important, most meaningful, and not expecting to get through 335 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: the whole of it. And there is quite a deep 336 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: potential shift here, which is summed up in that sort 337 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: of familiar phrase, But it's that the items on a list, 338 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: when you viewed like that, stop being things that you 339 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: have to do and become things that you get to do. 340 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: You get to pick from a menu, and we do 341 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 2: get to pick from our to do list. Again, we 342 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 2: may decide that certain things that we're going to pick 343 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: us kind of unpleasant, in the same way that I 344 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: suppose you might pick a extremely healthy side dish and 345 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: a menu that you didn't particularly like because actually it's 346 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: part of your long term goal to eat healthily. But 347 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: there is something really important in letting go of that 348 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: notion that you've failed unless you get through the list. 349 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: And I think that seeing and understanding our list as 350 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: infinite is the way to do that, because then you're 351 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: just like, that's not happening. 352 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 1: Something else I really liked as an idea in this 353 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: book is around setting a quantity goal. 354 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: Can you tell me more about that? 355 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: Because I think that's particularly interesting for knowledge workers like us. 356 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, there are other contexts in which 357 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: the idea of quantifying your life and measuring everything you 358 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: do it can be quite sort of detrimental, and I 359 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: sort of don't recommend it, but I'm always one for 360 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: picking the right technique for the context and contradicting myself 361 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: wherever I feel like it. And the context of quantity goals, 362 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: I think that if you do any kind of creative work, 363 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: and that I would define very broadly, there is this 364 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: tendency to set things up in your mind so that 365 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: you can never feel like you've done something well enough, 366 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: or that you've done it to a sufficiently high quality. 367 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: So the way that you sort of or the way 368 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: that I sort of naturally, if I don't catch myself 369 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: proceeds as a writer, is sort of to sit there 370 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: staring at the screen waiting for something really good to 371 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: occur to me finally, maybe it does, and I type 372 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 2: it out, and then I sort of judge it again 373 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,959 Speaker 2: and realize it is in. I delete half of it, 374 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: and you sort of make this incredibly halting progress over 375 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: the page. And it's actually antipathetical to high quality anyway, 376 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: because the way to get to high quality is to 377 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: is to allow things to flow and then pick from 378 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: what flows out. So the idea of a quantity goal 379 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: is just that it gives the part of your brain 380 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: that wants to think in terms of goals and progress 381 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 2: and productivity something to do. But it's something to do 382 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: that sort of doesn't get involved in the quality arguments. 383 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: So for someone writing, this could be simply a question 384 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: of like, my next job is to add two hundred 385 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: words to this, or my next job is to write 386 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: for an hour today, or you know. And the most 387 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: sort of purely quantity form of this is the kind 388 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 2: of free writing exercise that I was talking about before, 389 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: where you might just say, like, I'm setting a timer 390 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: for ten minutes and the only rule is that I'm 391 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: not going to stop typing or writing for that ten minutes, 392 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 2: and you know that is not going to create the 393 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: final draft of a publishable book. 394 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: But that's not the point. The point is to. 395 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: Stay in this world of letting things flow out to 396 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 2: see what there might be to be worked with. So 397 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: I find there's something really sort of something that really 398 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: sort of removes the drama from things by setting a 399 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: quantity goal, because the other problem with the quality goal 400 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: is that it's really hard to express, like what does 401 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: it even mean to say, I'm going to try and 402 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 2: write this chapter as well as I possibly can, or 403 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: really excellently, or as well. 404 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 3: As the last one. 405 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: These are just kind of endlessly flexible definitions that you 406 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: will by default flex in the direction of feeling bad 407 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: about yourself. 408 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 409 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 2: So I'm very often in my creative work either sometimes 410 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: literally writing it down. Sometimes it's just in my mind, 411 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: but I'm thinking, like, Okay, what I'm doing next is 412 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: a twenty minute brain dump on this topic. What I'm 413 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: doing next is filling a single page with a little 414 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: structure diagram, because that's how I work. But the point 415 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: about the quantity there is it's like filling a single page. 416 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 2: It's not getting the perfect structure and so on and 417 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: so on. 418 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: We will be back with Oliver soon, and when we return, 419 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: we'll be discussing why being open to distractions can be 420 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: beneficial and the strategy you can use instead of a 421 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: to do list to make the most of your day. 422 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 423 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter 424 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 425 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 426 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot Com. I feel like this dovetails perhaps 427 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: into running a done list at the end of the day, 428 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: and I think it's fairly self explanatory perhaps, but maybe 429 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: I'd love you to talk about how you use a 430 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: done list and perhaps what it is in your work. 431 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say as a list that you keep 432 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: through the day, probably rather than necessarily just at the 433 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: end of the day. And this is very adaptable, you know, 434 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: if there are people listening and watching who have really complicated, 435 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: tricked out task management systems, Like I'm not suggesting throwing 436 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,719 Speaker 2: that away. It's just a question of building this in 437 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 2: and making sure that it's got a role, just a 438 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 2: role for recording proactively the things that you do as 439 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: you do them, so that you as well as a 440 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: to do list or instead of a to do list. 441 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: You're also creating this list of your accomplishments through the 442 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 2: day that gets longer and longer as the day goes on, 443 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: which I mean to do lists often tend to get 444 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 2: longer and longer as the day goes on as well, 445 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: But that's a problem. This is a good thing, right, 446 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: the longer you have done with better, And as I 447 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: say in the book, you know, it's a very simple intervention, 448 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: but I think it is so powerful because it invites 449 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: you to compare your output, not to infinity, which is 450 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: what we're usually doing, that all the things we could 451 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: yet do that would be useful if we could do. 452 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: Them, but to zero. 453 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: It's implicitly it's like, you know, here's what I've done 454 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: compared to if I stayed in bed and done nothing today. 455 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: So you know, I definitely cycle through the ways I'm 456 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: actually doing this in my own life, and actually maybe 457 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 2: that's something to talk about. I'm glad that I do 458 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 2: that now. I'm not in search of the final rigid 459 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: system in the way that I definitely used to be. 460 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: But one way that you can put this into practice, 461 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: obviously is just writing. Is just you know, adding items 462 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: to a piece of paper, as you go through them. 463 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 2: If I'm in more of a sort of a motivational rut, 464 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: I will sometimes pair this with another approach. So what 465 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: I'll do is, I'll it's going to sound very silly 466 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: when I put it into words, but you know, I will 467 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: in a notebook, on one page, write down a task 468 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: that I propose to do, do the task, cross it out, 469 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: and then write it down on a different page as 470 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 2: being done. Right, so you have a list of the 471 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 2: things that you're doing. You just added one task at 472 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 2: a time, and then a list of the things that 473 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: you've done. I mean, willing to be told that this 474 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: is kind of dumb on some level, but I find 475 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: it it's really it's really helpful for just sort of focusing 476 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: when you're feeling like you lack focus and just finally 477 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: on the done list. I mean, one thing that people 478 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: have said and that I think I have once or 479 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: twice found myself as well, is that if you're in 480 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 2: a really low place, like if you're really in a 481 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: kind of like I can't quite make myself get out 482 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: of bed kind of psychological place in life, which does happen. 483 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 3: You can just lower the bar for what counts as 484 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 3: something to be added to your done list. Right, there 485 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: is something weirdly motivational, something that gets the ball rolling 486 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 3: about keeping a list in a notebook where you say, 487 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 3: you know, took a shower, made coffee, things that you 488 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 3: wouldn't normally qualify as counters accomplishments because they're two below 489 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: the level of significance. But if you do that, you 490 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: know you don't need to show anyone else this list. 491 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: You can. 492 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: You can burn it at the end of the day, 493 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 2: and very swiftly people find that it snowballs, right that 494 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 2: you find that if you see, oh, actually, okay, this 495 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: narrative inside that says I'm totally useless. 496 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 3: I've already done like five effective. 497 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: Things today and yeah, maybe one of them was brush 498 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: my teeth, But like, okay, maybe two or three hours later, 499 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: I'll have graduated to answering some emails. 500 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: That's so good, something that I was thinking about after 501 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: I read it around. You know, there's a section around 502 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: staying distractible, which of course is the antithesis to a 503 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: lot of productivity advice out there. And I know that 504 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: you're a fan of Cal Newport in deep work and 505 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: the idea of having blocks of uninterrupted deep focused time. 506 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: So I was really curious as to how do you 507 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: apply this idea of being open to distractions and interruptions 508 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: rather than feeling frustrated with them or with children that 509 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: come in and interrupt work. 510 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's funny, I sort of. I did 511 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: a podcast with cal just a few weeks ago, and 512 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: I sort of really enjoy exploring this sort of tension point. 513 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: The conversation between us tends to be like I say, like, well, 514 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: you know, but it's really grueling and hard to try 515 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 2: to impose that level of schedule of your life. Couch 516 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: response is like, yeah, but it's worth it, So, like, 517 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: you know, buck up on some level, right, this is 518 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: not wrong. I'm not sort of against the deep work 519 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: approach and against time blocking in the sense that he 520 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 2: teaches it at all. A lot of this is to 521 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: do with navigating against one's personality and figuring out where 522 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: you're most likely to sort of get too rigid and 523 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 2: clamp down, and taking the opposite approach as a kind 524 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 2: as an antidote to that. So, but what I'm talking 525 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: about there is this notion that it's really easy, I think, 526 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: or for some people people like me, to kind of 527 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 2: make things worse for themselves by trying to sort of 528 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: stick to a schedule so rigid that more things get 529 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: defined as distractions, and distractions all feel worse when they 530 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: do happen, or interruptions, and that distraction, I guess, is 531 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: an internal interruption, and then the other kind is people 532 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 2: coming into the room or whatever. So the example I 533 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: give him the book. You know, if it's an afternoon 534 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: when it's not my turn for school pickup and I'm 535 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: working at home and my son burst into the room 536 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 2: to tell me about something that he's done at school 537 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: that day, there might be contexts where the right thing 538 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 2: for me to do is to stop and take a 539 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: breath and explain that actually I can't listen right now, 540 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 2: and I will be free later. That I might be 541 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: working on something urgent, I might be in a conversation 542 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: with somebody. This could happen in the next five minutes. 543 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: It'll be interesting to see. But I don't want to 544 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 2: have a productivity system that has defined this period as 545 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 2: so importantly devoted to rigid focus that by definition, that 546 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: lovely thing that life is supposed to be about is 547 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: defined as a problem. I'm not saying it will never 548 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 2: be something that needs to be managed in that way, 549 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: But like, don't default to that, don't start from the 550 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: position that unexpected things happening must be bad. I think 551 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: that is a risk of sort of overly investing in schedules. Obviously, 552 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: there'll be people in the audience here who may say, well, 553 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: you know, my schedule is you know, there are lots 554 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: of professional roles in which your schedule is more dictated 555 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: than that, right, if you've got appointments, if you're working 556 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: as a teacher, or working in sort of lots of 557 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: different settings where there's kind of a scheduled aspect to it. 558 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: But to whatever extent you have that autonomy, you don't 559 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: want to use that autonomy to make serendipity inherently the enemy. 560 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: One of the ways that I seek to sort of 561 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: operational is that I guess in my working life is 562 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: to relate to another chapter in the book where I 563 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: talk about this kind of three or four hour rule 564 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: of creativity, where you see all the way through history, 565 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: great creative people are choosing to spend about three or 566 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: four hours a day on their core activity if they 567 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 2: have the freedom to do that, and then everything else 568 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: and the rest of the time. So something I try 569 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: to do to emulate that is like, Okay, I'm going 570 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 2: to try really hard to ring fence several hours in 571 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: the morning for writing, very few exceptions to that. That 572 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: tends to work best for my energy. So I'm trying 573 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: to keep that time free to try to exert quite 574 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: a lot of control over time. But the crucial flip 575 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: side of that is I'm not going to try to 576 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: do that with the rest of the working day or 577 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,479 Speaker 2: the evening. I'm going to say, okay, after lunch or 578 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: however I do it. Then I am just more open 579 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: to things. Then I'm willing to make more appointments and 580 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 2: willing to be I'm going to be interrupted. I'm going 581 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,239 Speaker 2: to have my phone on the desk so that I 582 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: can respond to messages. So that, I think is a 583 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: way of kind of finding the balance between structure and serendipity. 584 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: I really like that. It feels like, instead of I guess, 585 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: like a rigid time boxed schedule, which in a way 586 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: is not particularly resilient, what you're describing feels like quite 587 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: an anti fragile kind of system, if you know what 588 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: I mean. 589 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 3: I think that's a lovely way of putting it. 590 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: I mean, and now I want to say in cal 591 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 2: Newport's defense now that he needs my defenses. 592 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: Certainly doesn't He's going quite fine that. 593 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: I think I can imagine him saying now if he 594 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: was in this conversation too, that making a very clear 595 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: time blocked schedule for your day is not the same 596 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: point as saying I have failed if I adapt it right. 597 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: So in his like time block planning approach and everything, 598 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: there's always these extra columns to the right hand side 599 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: of the main time block for adapting and adapting is 600 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 2: the point. And I think there's something to be said 601 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: for the idea of a very clear plan very loosely held. 602 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: For me, the way that works best is if there 603 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: are chunks of the day which are not specifically assigned 604 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: in advanced to specific tasks. But you know, maybe we're 605 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: all agreeing really here at the end. 606 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: Of the day. 607 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: I do think that the thing I'm happy to sort 608 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 2: of be against is the idea that like setting it 609 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: up in your mind so that if reality unfolds in 610 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: ways that we're not fully within your control, you've messed up, 611 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: because that's just like living in a world that doesn't exist. 612 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: The final thing I wanted to ask you Oliver is 613 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: just around your information diet, and you kind of touched 614 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: on it before and in terms of treating all the 615 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: things that we could be reading as a river as 616 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: opposed to a bucket that is filling up. And it 617 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: reminded me of this conversation I had with a friend 618 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: of mine who's in creative fields and does a lot 619 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: of writing, and she said to me a few years back, 620 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: she said, I've just had the realization I've done the 621 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: calculations of how many books I can read in a 622 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: year and probably how long my life will be, and 623 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: I've just realized I'm not going to have time to 624 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: read all the books that I want to read in 625 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: this lifetime. And that really stuck with me. And when 626 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: I read sort of how you talk about sort of 627 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: there is infinite information out there and for you as 628 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: a writer, and when you're researching books as well, how 629 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: do you decide what to read, what to like, dedicate 630 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: your precious attention to. 631 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a fraud issue. 632 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: I think that the approach that I'm gradually but successfully 633 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: sort of easing my way in to is just a 634 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: much more fluid one. So it's fluid in the sense 635 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 2: of treating the list of potential books as articles as 636 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: a river. As we've spoken about like picking from things 637 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: and not feeling bad about the others, it's treating individual 638 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: books in that way, being willing to read bits and 639 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 2: not necessarily, you know, feel the burden of having to 640 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: complete them. I think also it's the willingness to not 641 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: try too hard to retain what you're reading. There's this 642 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: thing a foot everywhere now in sort of personal knowledge management, 643 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: about how you've got to try to remember everything you read. 644 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: And I'm just like, maybe in certain you know, if 645 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: you're training in the law or in medicine, there are 646 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: context where you have to remember the things that you read. 647 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: In that way, the rest of us don't need to 648 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: do that, right, you can say that if something's relevant, 649 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 2: it's going to stick to some extent, and you know, 650 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: if you forget about it, then that's a filter, right. 651 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: The fact that something stays or doesn't stay tells you 652 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: something about it. It's relevance. So there isn't a sort 653 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: of answer to how I choose what to read than 654 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: what I feel drawn to and learning to trust that 655 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: sort of instinct of what feels enjoyable and interesting and 656 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 2: when a book feels like it's like I'm done with it, 657 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 2: even though I may never finished it and all the 658 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: rest of it. 659 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 3: I think that's the thing we need to cultivate. 660 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: I love that, Oliver. I could continue talking for hours. 661 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 3: I love your work so much. 662 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: There was just so much wisdom in here. So I 663 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: have a feeling I'll be going back and rereading it 664 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: and not trying to remember anything, but just knowing that 665 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: it's there if I need it. So thank you so 666 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: much for being here very early. Hopefully the sun has risen, 667 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: But thank you so much for your time. 668 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: Slowly, slowly. Yeah, I knew it would be a pleasure, 669 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 2: and it was. Thank you so much. A month I've 670 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 2: enjoyed it. 671 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: I hope you loved this chat with Oliver as much 672 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: as I did. He shed so many nuggets of wisdom 673 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: that I am personally very excited to implement in my 674 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: own life. And if you want to learn more about Oliver, 675 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking out his new book, Meditation for 676 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: Mortals four Weeks to embrace will imitations and make time 677 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: for what counts. We've put links to that and his 678 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: website in the show notes. If you like today's show, 679 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to 680 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was 681 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part 682 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 1: of the Coulan nation.