WEBVTT - Erin Patterson's testimony, explained 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.680 Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:06.880 now it makes sense. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.919 Good morning, and welcome to the Daily Oz. It's Tuesday, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.000 the tenth of June. I'm Lucy Tassel. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:21.360 I'm Billy Fitzsimon's. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.040 Last week, Aaron Patterson, who is accused of the murder 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.600 of three people and the attempted murder of another, took 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:32.360 the stand in her own defense. Patterson told the court 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.760 her version of the events of the fatal lunch she hosted, 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:40.040 a meal she now admits must have contained death cap mushrooms. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.760 In today's episode, we'll recap the first week of Patterson's 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.400 testimony and how it squares with what we've learned in 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:51.360 the trial so far. So Lucy. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.160 Last Monday is when we first learned that Aaron Patterson 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.200 would actually be in the witness box for this trial, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.400 which is a surprise because she didn't have to do that, right, Yeah. 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.120 She did not, And I think it's not editorializing to 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.959 say I was very surprised. That's because defendants in criminal 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.920 trials are not required to testify, and it's rare that 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.959 they do, so that means the defense kind of builds 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.840 its case around calling other witnesses to kind of speak 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.520 for the defendant, and also by asking questions of the 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.240 prosecution's witnesses. Obviously, the prosecution and the defense, the two 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.039 different sides can ask questions of each other's witnesses. 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.600 And it's because the burden of proof is on the prosecution, right, Yes, 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.440 so Aaron Patterson doesn't necessarily actually have to prove that 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.480 she didn't do it. The prosecution just has to prove 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:42.280 that she did it. 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.480 Yes, And when we say did it, we mean intentionally 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.320 poisoned a meal. Yes, that's the allegation. But yeah, that's 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.760 the concept of innocent until proven guilty, and it's the 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.880 prosecution's jump to prove that she is guilty. 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:56.400 Got it. 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:00.840 So when a defendant testifies in that rare case, they 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.480 get asked questions by their own lawyers first, who obviously 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.560 are interested in making sure they defend themselves. That's like 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.080 the key verb. So we might hear the defense asking 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.440 questions about their client's perspective on the events that are 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.520 the subject of the trial. So in this case, the 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.359 July twenty twenty three lunch, and that's to convince the 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.679 jury of their case. The danger and the reason that 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.560 defendants tend not to do. This is because they also 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.600 have to be cross examined by the prosecution, so the 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.760 other side, those questions will usually be more pointed, more direct. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:35.920 And again, as we say, the prosecution is trying to 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.480 prove that the defendant did something, so the questioning is 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.760 going to be very different, and we definitely saw those 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.600 two approaches in Patterson's trial this week. 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.240 Before we go on and explain what exactly happened last 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.320 week in this case, I think for anyone who isn't 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.200 as familiar with this story, do you want to just 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.000 explain who Aaron Patterson is and what she is accused of. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.840 Yeah. Absolutely. Aaron Patterson is a fifty year old woman 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.840 who lives in the regional town of lean Gatha in 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.480 eastern Victoria. She is married to a man named Simon Patterson, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.080 and they have two children. Erin and Simon married in 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:17.200 two thousand and seven and separated in twenty fifteen. They've 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.640 never been divorced, but they've also never got back together. 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.600 In July twenty twenty three, Erin invited five people over 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.040 to lunch, Simon, his parents, Don and Gail, and his 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:31.600 aunt and uncle Heather and Ian Wilkinson. Now, Simon told 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.120 Erin the night before the lunch that he would not attend, 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.560 and we know that from texts that have been shown 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:40.119 in court and also Simon's evidence and this week Erin's evidence. 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.960 The lunch was held at Aaron's home. Don, Gail, Heather, 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.440 and Ian all came. As I said, not Simon. All 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.360 four of those people became very ill after the lunch. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.360 They all went to hospital where Don, Gailee, and Heather 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:57.880 later died with suspected death cap mushroom poisoning. Ian however, survived, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:03:59.920 and he went on to give evidence at this trial. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.160 And Ian is the uncle of Erin's husband, Yes, exactly, 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.200 so he is the sole survivor of this. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.880 Lunch other than Aaron. Yes, got it. Erin has also 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.040 given evidence that she became ill following the lunch too, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.400 though not as sick as her guests obviously did so. 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.120 Erin was giving evidence last week, and that came after 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.520 weeks of other people also giving evidence, because this trial 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.599 has now gone on for several weeks. Right, Yes, what 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.280 else did we learn when Erin took the stand? 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.480 We heard a lot, which is understandable when a person 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.680 is asked questions all day for four and a half days. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.320 Erin began giving evidence on Monday afternoon. I'll try and 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.760 give you some of the biggest moments, but just to say, 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.400 like there is so much, let's start with the lunch itself. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.880 This was something that her defense barrister, Colin Mandy sc 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.520 took her through. We know that Erin served her guests 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.840 a beef Wellington Traditionally. I don't know if you've ever 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.760 had a beef Wellington haven't. I think I must have once. 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:04.240 But anyway, traditionally it's cooked as one big, large baked dish. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.680 It's like a log. You cut it and you serve 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.000 it in slices. So we have already heard from other 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.560 witnesses in this trial though, so like from Ian Wilkinson, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:18.440 for example, that Erin prepared individual beef Wellington's for her guests. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.200 Now on the stand last week, she said this was 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.960 because she couldn't find a big enough piece of beef 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.320 for a whole log, as the recipe calls for, so 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:31.320 she bought individual steaks. Another big element of beef Wellington 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.760 is this mushroom paste that kind of wraps around the 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.560 big piece of beef, which Erin told her barrister she 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:42.839 made using some woolies mushrooms and some dried mushrooms from 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.719 her pantry. It also goes for procudo, but she said 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.359 she didn't put protrudo in because one of the lunch 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.240 guests don doesn't eat pork, so she substituted that. So 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.680 she's made a couple of changes to the recipe, but 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.120 the key thing is she makes this paste of mushrooms 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.360 that wraps around the beef. In the days following the lunch, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.720 doctors were suspecting death cap poisoning. After of course, her 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.000 four guests have shown up at hospital and they're very unwell. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:14.040 When authorities were starting to get involved, Erin told health workers, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.760 like health authorities, she had bought mushrooms at an Asian 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.640 grocer in Eastern Melbourne, and that actually sparked a massive 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.440 search by authorities to find if there was an Asian 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:30.080 grocer in Eastern Melbourne selling death cap mushrooms well, because 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.160 that would be a massive concern, right, yeah, that would 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.839 be a huge public health issue. And so that's based 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.680 on evidence those workers have given to the court during 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.520 the trial. Now, in terms of what Erin has said, 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.920 she said she stored these mushrooms in a tupperware container 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.440 for some months. On the stand last week, though, she 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:52.320 admitted she now believes that dried mushrooms she'd foraged could 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.400 have been in that tupperware, and that she could have 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:01.800 unknowingly foraged death cap mushrooms. She's denied intentionally foraging for 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.520 death caps or intentionally poisoning the meal, but has accepted 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.320 on the stand that they must have been in there. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.560 Lucy, I have so many more questions, but before we 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.520 get to them, here is a quick message from USWANSA. 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.280 When we say foraging, do we mean she found these 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:23.640 mushrooms in the wild. 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:24.160 Yes. 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.680 So she's no longer saying that she bought them at 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.080 this Asian grosser. She's now saying that she literally found 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.560 them in a forest, sumwherre or in the wild somewhere. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.280 So this is one of the interesting aspects of Erin's evidence, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.480 and it's also the kind of thing that typically prevents 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.960 defendants from testifying. Erin has, on the stand last week, 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.440 admitted to telling authorities lies. And I want to be 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.360 super clear. As journalists, we have to be incredibly careful 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.280 about what we say about an active ongoing trial. We 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.760 would never normally say this person has lied, but Erin 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.440 has to the defense and the prosecution, admitted that in 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.760 her original police interview, which was recorded on the fifth 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.000 of August twenty twenty three, she told police she had 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.360 I'm quoting her, never foraged, as in gone out and 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.000 looked for mushrooms. And she has now admitted on the 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.080 stand that this was a lie, that she had in 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:19.160 fact done so, so telling authorities that these mushrooms must 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.520 have come from an Asian groser. She had gone to 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.480 an Asian grocer, but she was not telling them the 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.880 whole truth, which was that she was beginning to worry. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.319 She said that she had accidentally picked up death cap 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.280 mushrooms while going out into the wild and searching for 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:36.400 mushrooms in her area. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.120 Okay, so she admitted to lying about foraging. Yes, was 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.720 there anything else that she admitted to lying about? 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.520 So there was another big one that she admitted to 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.880 lying to police about, and that is about owning a 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:49.960 food dehydrator. 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:52.719 I've seen this, I've seen the headlines about this. 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.360 Yes, although I suppose I one is partly true. So, 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.839 as I said in her police interview that was the 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.160 fifth of August twenty twenty three, she told police she 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.520 didn't own a dehydrator. That was partly true, I say, 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.320 because two days earlier she was seen on CCTV footage 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.840 disposing of the dehydrator at the local tip. 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:13.400 Got it. 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.120 So in that moment she did not own a dehydrator, 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:21.560 but she previously had and she used it to dehydrate mushrooms. 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.080 Right, and so in the court case last week, she 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.480 admitted to using the dehydrator on the mushrooms that were 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.360 used in the beef Wellington pie. Yes is that pie? 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.839 Yes, it's like a yeah, it's pies. Cool. Yeah. So 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.280 she told police she didn't own one. They said, why 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.480 do you have a manual for a dehydrator? And she 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.119 said maybe I owned one in the past and paraphrasing 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.960 this is the general thrust, got it. But yes, she 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.880 has since admitted in court saying it wasn't entirely true 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.000 to tell police that I didn't own a dehydrator, and 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.120 she has admitted that her fingerprints are confirmed to have 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.760 been on the dehydrator that police took from the tip. 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.960 I'll just say, though, what she has maintained across questioning 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.120 by with the defense and the prosecution is that she 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.719 did not intentionally forage for death cap mushrooms. She did 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.920 not intentionally put them in the meal, and she did 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.160 not intend to kill any of the people who later died. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.080 So my understanding of this case is that she is 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.360 not denying that there were death cap mushrooms in the 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.680 meal that she cooked for the four guests at her house. Yes, 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.160 what she is denying is that it was intentionally death 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.480 cap mushrooms and that she intentionally killed three people. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.800 Yes, she denies that she sought them out, that she 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.440 dehydrated them intentionally. All these things got it, which intent 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.400 is one of the things that the prosecution has to 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.040 prove in order for the jury to make a finding 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.200 of murder. She's saying that was absolutely not my intention. 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.800 Was there anything else that she lied about or admitted 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:55.520 to lying about. 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.560 There's not so much a lie, but kind of something 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.520 that she clarified through a few days of evidence. So 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.320 when this trial began, we heard in both the defense 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.319 and the prosecution's opening statements that Aaron had led her 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.240 guests to believe that she had been diagnosed with ovarian 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.520 cancer and was seeking their advice over lunch on how 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:19.080 to tell her children. 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:19.959 And did she have cancer? 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.240 No. We also heard this point about her kind of 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:27.200 explaining a diagnosis from Ian Wilkinson when he gave evidence 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.440 last Wednesday. Under questioning from the defense, Erin said she 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.480 had a history of ovarian cancer in her family and 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.200 was worried about it. She added that in the past 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.480 Don and Gail had shown her care and concern whenever 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.200 she so that's Simon's parents. That they'd shown her care 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.560 and concern whenever she discussed medical issues with them, and 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.720 she had a desire for that interest in her well 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.439 being to continue. She told her defense barrister she was 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.040 quote not proud of this, but that she had led 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.040 her guests to quote believe that I might be needing 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.480 some treatment in regards to ovarian cancer in the next 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:07.880 few weeks. She's since admitted she was never diagnosed. Instead, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.080 she told the court she was actually planning to get 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.720 gastric bypass surgery following decades of struggling with her body 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.720 image and with disordered eating. She told her barrister she 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.000 would need the support of her in laws if she 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.160 did get that operation. So that's a weight loss operation, yes, 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.960 but that she had ultimately lied to them about why 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:30.000 she would need their help. Then, under cross examination from 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:34.160 the prosecutor, doctor Bennett Rogers, Aaron said she didn't think 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.040 she had explicitly told her guests that she had been 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.520 diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She agreed she wanted to lead 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.439 them to believe she had cancer. It's a nuance. It's 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.120 it's a nuance, and it's the sort of thing that 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.600 can come out when you're being asked questions about the 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.680 same thing by two different people with two different approaches. 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.760 Yeah, okay, so today is Tuesday. Yes, is Aaron Patterson 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:58.880 still on the stand today? 0:12:59.120 --> 0:12:59.640 She is. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.079 And I remember we reported last week in one of 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.440 our headline podcasts that the judge has said that this 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.200 trial is going to go on for longer than he 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:10.400 initially expected. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.280 Yes. I think that's probably because he wouldn't have expected 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.720 Eron to give evidence. As I said, it's a rare occasion. 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.840 But yes, Justice Christopher Beale has told the jurors that 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.280 proceedings will continue for at least another week, at which 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.199 point he'll let them know if they can go off 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.720 to deliberate, or if there's more evidence that needs to 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:29.480 be presented. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.960 Interesting. Well, we will keep everyone updated on what happens there. 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.000 It is really a case that literally has the attention 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.800 of the whole world. Yeah, they are a journalists from 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.720 all over the world who are in this court in 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.040 Victoria to find out what is happening in this court 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.520 and report on it. Lucy, thank you so much for 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.080 explaining it. Thanks Billy, and thank you so much for 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.280 listening to this episode of The Daily os. If you'd 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.240 like to support us, if you can click follow on 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.760 Spotify or Apple. It really helps other people find us 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.520 and helps us climb up those charts. We'll be back 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.400 again this afternoon with your evening headlines, but until then, 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:07.200 have a great day. 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.520 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:18.520 Bunjelung Caalcutin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.760 that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.360 Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.280 Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.080 first peoples of these countries, both past and present.