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Speaker 1: To me, the to do list became my boss. It

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Speaker 1: became it was like ruling my life. So one of

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Speaker 1: the most powerful tactics is to kind of ignore the

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Speaker 1: to do list as much as possible and instead, each

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Speaker 1: day choose one highlight and write it down. So every

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Speaker 1: day in the morning, I'm saying, if the day was over,

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Speaker 1: what would I want to say was the highlight of

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Speaker 1: my day today? You know, would what would make me

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Speaker 1: feel satisfied or feel joyful? What would that be? And

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Speaker 1: to think of that one thing, not just one little task,

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Speaker 1: but like what you know, maybe be sort of ambitious,

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Speaker 1: make it a sixty to ninety minute thing, and write

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Speaker 1: it down. You know, today I will do this thing

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Speaker 1: and I just write down that one thing. And it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean I'm not doing other things. It doesn't mean that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have to check email, and I do have to

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Speaker 1: keep a to do list of some little tasks. But

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Speaker 1: those things then are they're kind of in the backseat

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Speaker 1: and I'm driving with the highlight. I'm driving with the

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Speaker 1: thing that I believe is the most important. And so

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Speaker 1: that's one of the most powerful It's a very small,

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Speaker 1: simple shift. It's a simple tactic, but it can really

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Speaker 1: change the way the day feels, and also just whether

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Speaker 1: I get the things done that are really important.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest today is

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Speaker 2: Jake Knapp. Jake spent the last ten years at Google

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Speaker 2: and Google Ventures, where he created the design sprint, which

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Speaker 2: is a method for building and testing a prototype in

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Speaker 2: five days. He then went on and wrote a book

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Speaker 2: about the process called Sprint, which was a New York

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Speaker 2: Times bestseller, and recently he wrote another book called Make Time,

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Speaker 2: which I mentioned on a previous episode. I've personally loved

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Speaker 2: Make Time, which is all about strategies to help make

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Speaker 2: time for doing your most important work and really getting

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Speaker 2: the most out of each day. So I was very

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Speaker 2: excited when Jake said yes to being on the show

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Speaker 2: because I followed his work for several years, and what

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Speaker 2: I particularly loved about this chat was how practical Jake

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Speaker 2: is in his strategies and how he's applied them in

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Speaker 2: his life, particularly during his decade or so at Google

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Speaker 2: and Google Ventures.

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Speaker 3: Now I should warn you that this chat somehow ended up.

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Speaker 2: Starting with a story about a near death experience, but

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Speaker 2: don't worry, it does get more upbeat from there.

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Speaker 3: So on that note, over to Jake to find out

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Speaker 3: about how he works. Jake, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hey, thank you for having me on, Amantha. I'm super

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Speaker 1: excited to be here. Well, I mean here virtually. I

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Speaker 1: guess we're.

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Speaker 3: Talking absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I want to start with the question of how you

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Speaker 2: became a time talk, which is obviously how you affectionately

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Speaker 2: refer to yourself.

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Speaker 3: So can you tell me how that all started?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well I am. I mean, I've always been interested

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Speaker 1: in design and building products, even before I realized that

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Speaker 1: was the name for what I was interested in. Even

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Speaker 1: as a kid. I wanted to like make games, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to design things, and I worked on the

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Speaker 1: newspaper in high school. All these things that sort of

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Speaker 1: led me to It's easy to see how I became

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Speaker 1: a product designer. But how I got obsessed with time,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess it's things in real life

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Speaker 1: that got me interested in it and you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a few sort of stories. I guess one of them

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Speaker 1: is that when I was in high school, I'm very tall,

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Speaker 1: and people have met me, you know, will know that

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Speaker 1: we'll agree that I'm extremely sort of freakishly tall. And

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Speaker 1: so I played basketball. I love to play basketball, and

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Speaker 1: in high school I almost died playing basketball. Actually was yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had this guy actually into sort of a pickup

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Speaker 1: game accidentally kind of like caught my leg on a

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Speaker 1: guy's shoulder when I was like jumping up for a

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Speaker 1: shot and I fell on my side. I ruptured my spleen.

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Speaker 1: I grew up on this little island, so like it

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Speaker 1: would have been actually a pretty serious injury no matter

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Speaker 1: where you were. But they had to like fly me

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Speaker 1: off of the island because there's no hospital where they

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Speaker 1: could do surgery on the island. And anyway, I came

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Speaker 1: very close actually to dying when I was, like, I

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Speaker 1: guess I was sixteen years old. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean when you're a kid, and usually I think as

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Speaker 1: a kid, you get to have this long period of

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Speaker 1: time where you feel immortal, you know, and you think

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Speaker 1: that nothing can happen to you. But I got a

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Speaker 1: very stark reminder that I was mortal, and that changed

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Speaker 1: the way I looked at the world I think, And

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Speaker 1: then I had about it was nine years later when

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Speaker 1: I my wife and I had our first child, and

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Speaker 1: having a kid was another thing that had a big

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Speaker 1: effect on me and made me really rethink the way

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Speaker 1: I was spending my time during the day and made

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Speaker 1: me want to want to slow time down and pay

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Speaker 1: more attention to what was going on. And and my

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Speaker 1: my father who was very close to he passed away

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and he had he had Alzheimer,

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Speaker 1: so we knew for like a few years I could

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Speaker 1: tell he was ill, and and that also made me

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Speaker 1: want to just I just felt I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: just feel like I had had And I think this

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Speaker 1: happens to every person you see life events. They happened

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Speaker 1: to you, or they happen to people you care about,

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Speaker 1: beginnings and endings, and it makes you want to pay

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Speaker 1: attention to what goes on and make sure that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't go by in a blur.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: How interesting that it start it all on the basketball

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Speaker 2: court for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it was. I mean, you know, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like it wasn't like a big sort of wise moment

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Speaker 1: for me, I was just I was just a kid,

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Speaker 1: and you know, but yeah, man, I mean I was.

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Speaker 1: I woke up in the hospital after most fleen taken out,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, they were like, yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: had if it had taken us fifteen more minutes to

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Speaker 1: get you here, you would have you would have died.

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Speaker 1: So it was a it was a crazy event and

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Speaker 1: definitely just kind of like, you know, like just made

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Speaker 1: me a little more not all the time, but a

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Speaker 1: little more serious sometimes about how I did things.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's wow, that's quite the story. And I want

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Speaker 2: to switch giars and with the near death story light

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Speaker 2: in the mood, awesome. Well, let's let's let's let's not

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Speaker 2: talk about death now, and let's just let's.

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Speaker 1: Just table that for at least ten minutes.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, Well, we'll revisit at the end. No, So

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about I want to talk about

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Speaker 2: Make Time, because that's your latest book, and I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of listeners would would know you from your

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Speaker 2: your first book, which was Sprint, which certainly had had

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Speaker 2: a really big impact on a lot of clients that

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Speaker 2: we work with. So I run an innovation consultancy and

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of people that are fans of

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Speaker 2: that book, as am I, And it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: an interesting transition where in Sprint you obviously talked about

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Speaker 2: how to make the most of time for kind of

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Speaker 2: I guess, discrete projects and getting them up and running

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Speaker 2: to solve problems. And I really loved reading Make Time.

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Speaker 2: It's such a fun read. And I don't mean that

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Speaker 2: in a frivolous way. It's just it's super easy to

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Speaker 2: consume and laugh out loud funny, which you don't really

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Speaker 2: expect from a book that is about managing your time.

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Speaker 3: So there are a lot of strategies in the book.

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Speaker 2: I think maybe seventy or eighty off the top of

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Speaker 2: my head, but I wanted to know, like, what are

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Speaker 2: the top ones for you? Like what have been the

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Speaker 2: absolute game changes for you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, part of part of this whole

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Speaker 1: thing is that I think, I mean, we started off

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Speaker 1: very serious, and I think that you do have to

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Speaker 1: take your time seriously, but you also kind of have

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Speaker 1: to have fun. I mean, because you know, like you

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Speaker 1: just sort of you gotta have fun. And we so

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Speaker 1: often are in settings and work or whatever, and we're

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Speaker 1: encouraged to take things serious or we're a lot of

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Speaker 1: times the advice about time management, it's very serious and

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Speaker 1: intense and almost like guilty, you know, like you should

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Speaker 1: feel guilty about what's going on, or feel guilty about

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Speaker 1: wasting time or whatever. And I think that that idea

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Speaker 1: of guilt and heaviness even it's quite problematic. It's certainly

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Speaker 1: for me. There was this long you know, for years

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Speaker 1: and years and years trying to figure out and the

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Speaker 1: best way to manage my own time and how to.

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Speaker 1: I thought I could come up with some perfect system

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Speaker 1: that would mean that every day I would be doing,

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Speaker 1: you know, a great job, being super productive, and then

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Speaker 1: I just always ended up feeling guilty about it. And

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Speaker 1: so make Time is kind of about this change of

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Speaker 1: heart and this new approach to looking at the ideas

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Speaker 1: that people have probably heard before, but different, a different

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Speaker 1: way of looking at them, a different way of talking

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Speaker 1: about them and thinking about them, so that it's more fun,

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Speaker 1: it's more lightweight, and honestly, hopefully it works better. It

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Speaker 1: actually fits into real life in a better way. But

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Speaker 1: to answer your question, some of the tactics that are

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Speaker 1: the favorite of mine from this different way of looking

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Speaker 1: at it are one of them. Is instead like, okay,

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Speaker 1: to do lists. You kind of have to have a

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Speaker 1: to do list, right, Like we got to keep track

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Speaker 1: of stuff that's going on, sure, but most productivity starts

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Speaker 1: and ends in the to do list. It's all about

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Speaker 1: getting the to do list right. It's all about prioritizing

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Speaker 1: that and managing those to do So there's all kinds

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Speaker 1: of software tools for managing those, assigning them, you know,

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Speaker 1: breaking them up. All this stuff. To me, the to

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Speaker 1: do list became my boss. It was like ruling my life.

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Speaker 1: So one of the most powerful tactics is to kind

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Speaker 1: of ignore the to do list as much as possible

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Speaker 1: and instead, each day choose one highlight and write it down.

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Speaker 1: So every day in the morning, I'm saying, if the

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Speaker 1: day was over, what would I want to say was

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Speaker 1: the highlight of my day today? You know, what would

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Speaker 1: make me feel satisfied or feel joyful? What would that be?

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Speaker 1: And to think of that one thing, not just one

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Speaker 1: little task, but like what you know, maybe be sort

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Speaker 1: of ambitious, make it a sixty to ninety minute thing

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Speaker 1: and write it down. You know, today I will do

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Speaker 1: this thing and I just write down that one thing,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean I'm not doing other things. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that, yeah, I have to check email, and

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Speaker 1: I do have to keep a to do list of

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Speaker 1: some little tasks. But those things then are they're kind

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Speaker 1: of in the backseat and I'm driving with the highlight.

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Speaker 1: I'm driving with the thing that I believe is the

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Speaker 1: most important. And so that's one of the most powerful things.

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Speaker 1: It's a very small, simple shift. It's a simple tactic,

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Speaker 1: but it can really change the way the day feels,

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Speaker 1: and also just whether I get the things done that

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Speaker 1: are really important. So that's a big one. And another

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Speaker 1: one that I'll just mention real quickly. I can go

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Speaker 1: on and on, because as you said, there are eighty

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Speaker 1: seven tactics in the boat, so there's a lot. But

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Speaker 1: I'll just the one other one for me that's really

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Speaker 1: powerful is has been deleting apps off of my phone

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Speaker 1: and there are that this is a topic I have

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Speaker 1: to I can go on and on about. But there

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Speaker 1: are all of these, you know, sort of things on

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Speaker 1: our phone that pull at our attention, and we all

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Speaker 1: know this. This is a topic that has been much

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Speaker 1: discussed in the press and so on. Like there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of tech backlash and and although I used to

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Speaker 1: be a product designer working on Gmail, and I've I've

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Speaker 1: worked with a lot of these companies or no people

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Speaker 1: who work at them. I am very sympathetic. Like I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of trouble with things on my phone

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Speaker 1: that drawing my attention. And so six years ago, I

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Speaker 1: had this moment where I just realized, you know what,

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Speaker 1: like I don't need that stuff on my phone. Is

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Speaker 1: fine for me if it's just on my laptop, and

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Speaker 1: the phone is still great even if I delete all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. So I Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, email, even

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Speaker 1: you can turn off Safari on the iPhone. And I

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Speaker 1: turned all those things off and instead I have you know, podcasts,

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Speaker 1: I have a camera, I have maps, I have music,

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Speaker 1: I have a flashlight. I have all these things that

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Speaker 1: actually are really cool. They are really amazing, but it's

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Speaker 1: sort of half of what most folks have on their iPhone.

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Speaker 1: And for me, that distraction free iPhone, it's super powerful

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Speaker 1: because when I'm not sitting at a computer, then it's

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Speaker 1: just me, you know, it's just with just my thoughts.

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Speaker 1: It's not this poll constantly to my pocket, and that's

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Speaker 1: really powerful. So those two if I would say like

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Speaker 1: to if you wanted to try two things today and

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Speaker 1: you don't even have to read the book, if you know,

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Speaker 1: if you just tried those two things, I think that's

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Speaker 1: really powerful.

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Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of what you've done with the phone,

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Speaker 2: and I've sort of friend similar experiments myself. I've had

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Speaker 2: all social media apps deleted from my phone for probably a.

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Speaker 3: Year or something like that.

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Speaker 1: And how's that been for you?

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Speaker 3: The best? Like, it was fantastic.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of it started actually probably over a year

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Speaker 2: ago now where I just got into an Instagram black

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Speaker 2: hole after brushing my teeth at night, and I was

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Speaker 2: just down that hole for two hours and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: oh my goodness, what have I done that. I've just

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Speaker 2: lost two hours doing nothing, So it's crazy. And then

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Speaker 2: more recently, I deleted my email at because I found

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Speaker 2: that the email became the go to So it's just

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Speaker 2: so it's so lovely, And can I ask, like your

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Speaker 2: phone out, how long has your phone been distraction free?

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Speaker 3: As you call it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been six years actually, I just realized that,

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Speaker 1: and I just wrote a post. In fact, if your

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Speaker 1: listeners want to read even more about this, I just

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Speaker 1: wrote a post about it called six years with a

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Speaker 1: distraction free iPhone, and I illustrated it and every thing.

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Speaker 1: I got really into kind of telling this story about

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Speaker 1: the phone and the effect it had on me. I

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Speaker 1: think it had a really powerful effect on my ability

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Speaker 1: to do big projects, to do things like write books,

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Speaker 1: or to really experiment with and promote the design sprint process.

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Speaker 1: Those things were They're the kinds of projects that were

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Speaker 1: I felt like, really important. But they're also the kind

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Speaker 1: of things that would constantly get pushed aside by day

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Speaker 1: to day work requirements, you know, and the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things that historically in my career had always not happened,

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Speaker 1: they had always fallen by the wayside. And I credit

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Speaker 1: a deal of that to just shutting down those distractions

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Speaker 1: on my phone, because when like the smartphone came out,

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Speaker 1: it's been like ten years, right, My phone ten just

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Speaker 1: came out, So it's been well, not just but last year,

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Speaker 1: but it's been like ten years since we've had smartphones

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Speaker 1: as this big part of our of our day to

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Speaker 1: day lives. And in those ten years, like so much

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Speaker 1: of the distraction has migrated from the desktop to the phone.

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Speaker 1: Like I remember when I started working at Google. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm just rambling now. But when I started working at Google,

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Speaker 1: my very first project, very very first project when I

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Speaker 1: began was working on Google Talk. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: anyone remembers what that is, but it was like a

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Speaker 1: desktop chat client for that Google made for Windows computers.

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Speaker 1: And then eventually that chat was also in Gmail and

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Speaker 1: I worked on that as well. But we used to

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Speaker 1: think about how to make chat work as well as

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Speaker 1: it could on the desktop, which was like at that

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Speaker 1: time in two thousand and seven, you know, right before

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Speaker 1: the iPhone came out, that was like that was a

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Speaker 1: big deal to try to, you know, make sure people

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Speaker 1: were able to communicate as efficiently and effectively as possible.

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Speaker 1: It's so weird to think of that now, like that

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Speaker 1: would totally be a mobile first thing now, right, But

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Speaker 1: like ten years ago, the desktop was where all of

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Speaker 1: the attention went. And because everything, all of people's efforts

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Speaker 1: has focused so successfully on mobile phones for the last

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Speaker 1: decade now, it's like such a high leverage place. If

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Speaker 1: you want your attention back and you take those apps

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Speaker 1: off of the phone, then like the desktop is comparatively quiet.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's actually quite easy to control what goes

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Speaker 1: on on the desk. Stop when you shut down that

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Speaker 1: noisy voice in your pocket.

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Speaker 3: That's so true.

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Speaker 2: I I gosh, I've just got like a ton of

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Speaker 2: questions freeing from all of that. I want to come

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Speaker 2: back to your time at Google in a moment. But

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Speaker 2: I guess it's like whenever people are bored, the phone

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Speaker 2: will come out. So when they're queuing in line for

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Speaker 2: a coffee, for example, you pull your phone out. Or

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Speaker 2: if you know you're out for dinner with family or friends,

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Speaker 2: they go to the bathroom, your phone comes out. What

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Speaker 2: what do you do in those moments? Given it sounds

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Speaker 2: like there's not much going on on your phone?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean like I kind of have to

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Speaker 1: do nothing because yeah, there's nothing. And this is actually

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Speaker 1: an objection that a lot of people have with the

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Speaker 1: distraction free phone. I mean legitimately, they're like, I really

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Speaker 1: like the sound of that, but what am I going

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Speaker 1: to do to fill the space in between? You know?

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Speaker 1: And and again it's like it's not like I'm, you know,

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Speaker 1: proposing that you go back to like wearing like a

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Speaker 1: like an animal skin and living in a cave. Like

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Speaker 1: it's not that far back in time that we didn't

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Speaker 1: have smartphones, right, Like when people were cool, they were

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Speaker 1: were fine. They were like making it through the day,

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Speaker 1: you know, making it through like a meal with if

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Speaker 1: somebody went to the bathroom, like you'll be all right actually,

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Speaker 1: And that that is part of the thing that like

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Speaker 1: if if the phone is there, because all of this

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Speaker 1: comes from not for me being like so like masterful,

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Speaker 1: it's because I can't handle the phone at all. I

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Speaker 1: am like, I'll be the first one. If there's anything

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Speaker 1: on my phone that I can like look at, I'm

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Speaker 1: definitely gonna look at it. So when it's not there,

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Speaker 1: I'm like I'm just looking around the restaurant probably, you know,

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Speaker 1: like like I'm just like I like, I literally will

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Speaker 1: just be bored for a minute. And I think actually

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Speaker 1: being bored is pretty powerful. And there are you know,

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Speaker 1: there's some there's some studies about this, but like basically,

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Speaker 1: when your when your mind is quiet, like it, it

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Speaker 1: gives your brain the chance a different part of your

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Speaker 1: brain the chance to work, you know, and and and

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Speaker 1: sometimes that's when an idea might come to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: an idea for something that I'm writing. Maybe I'll just

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00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 1: start thinking about something or maybe I can just notice

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Speaker 1: where I am. And this all sounds very like I

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Speaker 1: know it sounds boring, like this is like what me

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Speaker 1: describing being bored is boring, but there is actually that

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Speaker 1: is actually like a resource. Like if you can have

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Speaker 1: little pockets of boredom every now and again in the day,

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Speaker 1: like if you have like a couple times a day

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Speaker 1: when you're bored, or like five times a day when

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Speaker 1: you're bored, or just a few times per week even

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Speaker 1: that you didn't have before, Like that lets your brain

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Speaker 1: rest in a way, and sometimes for me, lets the

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Speaker 1: subconscious come up with a solution to something, solve something

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Speaker 1: or propose is an idea that I hadn't had before,

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Speaker 1: or maybe if I'm really lucky, I actually like notice

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Speaker 1: something nice that's going on. I noticed the people around me,

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Speaker 1: I noticed the weather outside, or you know, just something

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Speaker 1: that's nice that that just feels like, yeah, I was alive,

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Speaker 1: Like times slowed down, and when I'm looking at my phone,

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Speaker 1: it's like time just disappears. You know, I'm just giving

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Speaker 1: away my life. Honestly, I'm like giving away like some

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00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 1: small little piece of my life because I won't remember it.

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Speaker 1: I won't. It's like I'm just going to give myself

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Speaker 1: amnesia for those for that time and give it away.

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Speaker 1: So it's a way too. It might not always be exciting,

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Speaker 1: but it's a way to like reclaim myself. I guess.

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Speaker 3: I love that description of it.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like boredom is kind of like the new

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Speaker 2: meditation or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, I mean in a way, that's like

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Speaker 1: the easiest way to meditate is just if you're bored

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Speaker 1: and can't do anything, you will become more mindful.

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00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 3: Exactly.

391
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Speaker 2: Just do nothing, Just do nothing. I want to Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I want to come back to the highlight. It's and firstly,

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, like just to give people listening an example,

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Speaker 2: like what was what was the highlight for you today?

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00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 2: Or maybe the highlight for you yesterday?

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Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, so I'm going to tell you about today.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday was the same this today. I'll give you three days.

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Speaker 1: So today it's to write fifteen hundred words. I'm working

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Speaker 1: on a novel. I'm trying to write a science fiction novel,

400
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Speaker 1: and so it's really important for me, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was probably true for most people who when when

402
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,640
Speaker 1: doing a writing project, really important to do it every day,

403
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 1: to have my head in it every day, where it

404
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 1: takes a really long time to boot up, like it

405
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: takes a few days. Like if you think about booting

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00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,719
Speaker 1: up a computer. For me, the writing computer is like

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00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 1: it takes days to boot up. So I have to

408
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 1: keep it running. So I'll try to write fifteen hundred

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Speaker 1: words today, and if I do that, I know I'll

410
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Speaker 1: feel really satisfied. That was also my highlight for yesterday

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00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 1: was to get those fifteen hundred words in. And I

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00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 1: got him done, like just before midnight, you know, but

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Speaker 1: I did get him. I did get him in. And

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Speaker 1: the day before that it was also to write fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundred words. But during the day, I had the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to go to My son is now fifteen, so I

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Speaker 1: was sixteen when I had my basketball accident. My son

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Speaker 1: is fifteen. He's playing high school basketball, and I had

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Speaker 1: the chance to go to his basketball practice and help out.

420
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Speaker 1: Also tall like me, so they needed a tall guy

421
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: to just for him to like bang into for a while.

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00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: So so I went for an hour before his practice

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00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: started to work out with him. And then they said, well,

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00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: why don't you stick around for the whole practice and

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00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: just like play with us, you know, like we need

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00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: an extra they need an extra person in their practice.

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00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: So I got to I got I mean, this is

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00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 1: like the every old guy's dream, Like I got to

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00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: do high school basketball like practice again. It was really fun.

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00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: But that I was I was playing basketball for three hours.

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00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 1: I was totally worked. Afterwards, I was like, I was exhausted,

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00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 1: totally wiped out. And so I did not get my

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00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: writing target done that day. But when I looked at

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00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: the day, I was like, well, clearly the highlight became

435
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: playing basketball with my son, Like that was that was

436
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 1: something unanticipated, that was great, and I'm happy to give

437
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 1: up meeting my you know, my like very sort of

438
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: work related highlight for this life related highlight. And now

439
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 1: at the end of that day on Saturday, I was like, yeah,

440
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: this was a great day. Like I don't like, I

441
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: don't feel bad about not meeting my goal because really

442
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a big part of this philosophy

443
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: is just honestly, it's like it's both raising and lowering

444
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: expectations at the same time. So instead of thinking I'm

445
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,959
Speaker 1: going to do like a thousand things today, if I

446
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: just do one thing that's really important, that's enough, you know,

447
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 1: that's enough to be satisfied. But I want to choose

448
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,239
Speaker 1: what that thing is if at all possible, and so

449
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: on that day, I know, like it's okay that I

450
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: didn't do every single thing on the list. It's okay

451
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: that I changed what was most important. I did what

452
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: was most important, and I can feel satisfied even if

453
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: it's one thing.

454
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 2: I like that that's there's some nice examples, and I

455
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: liked the flexibility there, I think because I really the

456
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 2: idea of a highlight really resonated with me when I

457
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 2: read Make Time. But the thing that I struggled with,

458
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: like how I structure my own like to do list,

459
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: if you like, is ever since reading cal Newport's Deep Work,

460
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 2: which I think you reference in your book, which which

461
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: was just I just love that book, it's so good.

462
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: I now split my to do list up into a

463
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: deep work list and a shallow work list, because I

464
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: find if it's all in the one list, then your

465
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: brain just defaults to the easy thing, which is always

466
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 2: shallow work or non cognitively demanding work. And I think

467
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: with the highlight generally on my deep work list, how

468
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 2: I found that I tend to work is that I'll

469
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 2: have a handful of things which might be you know,

470
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 2: writing my regular column for entrepreneur, for example, or trying

471
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: to kind of work through the details of a product

472
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 2: that I'm trying to design or something like that. And

473
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's like a type a personality

474
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 2: thing like that. It's like, no, I want to highlights,

475
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: give me two highlights?

476
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 3: Well maybe three?

477
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: Is that a common thing like that comes up? It

478
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, what do you say to that?

479
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: It is, well, it is a common thing, and I

480
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: mean part of the thing I would say, and you know, honestly, like,

481
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: I think one thing that is a challenge for people

482
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: with adopting Make Time is that it is not it

483
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: does not feel extreme. And I think people like solutions

484
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: that are extreme or opinions that are extreme, and my

485
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: opinion about this is not extreme. I think if you

486
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: find that for you, it makes a lot of sense

487
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: to have two highlights, then I would say, Hey, you're

488
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: you and I'm me. I'm not going to tell you

489
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: what it's like to be you or what it's like

490
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: to do the work that you do or whatever. Like

491
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: that's great, go for it, but like I, but I

492
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: don't want to demand that of everybody. And the reason

493
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 1: why that does not work well for me personally is

494
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: that if I set two highlights for myself, I'm being

495
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: dishonest with myself with my capacity about what I can

496
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: do in a day. I as for my own podcast,

497
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: which you know we mentioned before we started recording product,

498
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: Breakfast Club is this podcast I have with my friend John.

499
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: But I interviewed another friend of mine. Her name is

500
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: Sarah Cooper. She's a designer, she's a but she's primarily

501
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: a comedian and a writer. Really super funny Sarah Cooper.

502
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: If you follow her on Twitter, check out her books.

503
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: She's absolutely hilarious. But I interviewed her about her work process,

504
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: how she does her work because, like me, she had

505
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 1: left Google to pursue a different kind of you know,

506
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: work of writing and being comedian full time. And one

507
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: of the things she said that stuck with me. I

508
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: thought it was such a powerful idea was she said

509
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: that it's been really important to actually like be honest

510
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: about how long it takes to do things, Like instead

511
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: of saying I'm going to do these ten things today,

512
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: like to say, like I'm going to do like this

513
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: one more important thing. I'm going to do it, like

514
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: it's going to take me a week maybe, or like

515
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: maybe making the timeframe for doing things that are important,

516
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: like a month. And I think there is so much

517
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: of a culture of busyness around most of us, all

518
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: the time at work and even at least in the

519
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: United States, like even outside of work, when I talk

520
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: to other parents and I see how busy they are, Like,

521
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: it's just it's everywhere. We're very busy people. And so

522
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: the expectation is always to do more and more and

523
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: more do it faster. And part of the idea with

524
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: Make Time is to say, hey, like it's okay to

525
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: have one focal point and to do maybe less, but

526
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: give it more energy. Some of this idea of focusing

527
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: on doing less each day, of having one thing each

528
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: day comes from the experience that my co author John

529
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 1: Zaratsky and I had running design sprints and watching all

530
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: these teams, you know, we were sort of facilitating the sprint,

531
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: running them through this process. We got to observe them,

532
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: you know, during during the week, during the day and

533
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: during the week, and one of our big observations was

534
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: that there's like one peak energy in the day for people,

535
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: like one peak sort of cognitive energy. And if you

536
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: engineer that, if you plan, like there's one main thing

537
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: we want to do each day, and we're going to

538
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: make that the focal point of the day. And sure

539
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 1: we're going to do other things today, but they're going

540
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: to kind of lead up to and build up to that.

541
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: Then we got much better results and it's more satisfying

542
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. So for me, if

543
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: I felt like I have two highlights today, like the

544
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: reality is, yeah, I might have two wonderful things happen,

545
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: or I might get two things done. Maybe that happens

546
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: in a given day. But to set the expectation for

547
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: myself each day, it could be exhausting, It could lead

548
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: me to do not my best work, and it could

549
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: be also disappointing when I can't actually deliver on it.

550
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: But again, you know that's me, and so it's just me.

551
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: I like that.

552
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: That's quite essentially, quite a compelling reason to make me

553
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: just go, okay, just one highlight, that's stuff being ridiculous.

554
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: Well, I guess one other part is to just distinguish

555
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: between what's a highlight and what's like a thing on

556
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: your list that you'll need to do. So, like if

557
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: you are writing the article for Entrepreneur, like that might

558
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: be that might be the highlight that day, you know,

559
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: or it might be a thing that's just like on

560
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: your to do list because it does require maybe the

561
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: draft that you're working on or the editing that you're

562
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: working on on that given day. It doesn't require your

563
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: peak energy. So part of the way I think about

564
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: it is like, what do I want to give my peak?

565
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: What do I can give my best to today? And

566
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to design an engineer the day around having

567
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: my best available for that one moment or that one

568
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: sort of session of effort and focus. And then you're

569
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: kind of prioritizing a bit. So even if there are

570
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: two or three important things you're saying, but this one

571
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: gets the best of me.

572
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 3: I like that way of looking at it.

573
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: That's really cool, That's very cool. What I want to

574
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: move on to your time at Google and then you're

575
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: at Google Ventures. I think you were at each one

576
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: for sort of about five years respectively. Because I imagine that

577
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: there are people listening, going, well, that's all.

578
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: Well and good.

579
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: You're a writer, You're in control of all your time.

580
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: I want to know because you're at Google Ventures recently.

581
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: I think you left there about eighteen months ago, and

582
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: I want to know, like, Yeah, what was your approach

583
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: to dealing with meetings and protecting your time? Because I

584
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: feel like meetings are the biggest thing that people struggle

585
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: with when it comes to getting great work and deep

586
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: work and focused work or a highlight done during the

587
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: day because other people control your diary unless you work

588
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: at base Camp, of course, but if you don't, other

589
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: people generally control your diary, so you can can you

590
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: tell me, like how you manage that?

591
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, and I have had I have had all

592
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: kinds of jobs in my life, and including lots of

593
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: different kinds of jobs at tech companies. And it's probably

594
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: easiest to remember Google ventures because it's the most recent,

595
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: but I've also worked as I've worked as a manager,

596
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 1: I've worked as an individual contributor, as an intern, I've

597
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: worked as a receptionist. I've worked as a busboy, dishwasher.

598
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: I've had all kinds of different jobs, and so I'm

599
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: definitely aware that there are there are different kinds of

600
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: demands and different kinds of expectations and requirements for different jobs,

601
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: and different cultures of the way that the teams work.

602
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: I think that actually, I mean this is sort of

603
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: we don't have to explore this topic, but ironically it

604
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: is I feel I have almost less control over my

605
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: schedule now than I did as you know, as a writer,

606
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: as a sort of self employed person whose time is

607
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: like the structure is one percent up to me. In

608
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: some ways, it's actually harder to do things. But but

609
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: that's that's neither here nor there, at least for right now.

610
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: The thing that I would do at Google Ventures was,

611
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: I mean, for one thing, the design Sprint was a

612
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: really powerful redesign of the work week. And so this

613
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: originally sprang from my experience working on you know, as

614
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: a designer building products and as a manager managing designers

615
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: who are working on products at Google, and so I

616
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: wanted to actually get the time to focus on work

617
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: so that we could get way into it and rapid progress.

618
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: Because when you could just focus on one thing, you know,

619
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: you can get more done. And when you could batch

620
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: those days of focus together and get everybody focused, like

621
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: thinking on about the same thing, like, all of those

622
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: benefits just exponentially increase. So the design Sprint at first

623
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: was like this trick to redesign the way the calendar

624
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: worked because instead of other people owning the calendar, instead

625
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: of sort of dodging around all of these things that

626
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: were already on there, recurring meetings and team meetings and

627
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: stand ups and one on ones. Then I could for

628
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: one week say nope, everything gets erased. Now we're starting

629
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: from scratch and we're just focusing on one thing. So

630
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: by the time I got to Google Ventures, many of

631
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: my weeks were design sprints, and then it was it

632
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 1: was easy to figure out. I mean, built into that

633
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: was the idea of a highlight for each day because

634
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: every day of the design sprint has one focal point.

635
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: On Monday you make a map, Tuesday you sketch, Wednesday,

636
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: you decide, Thursday, prototype, Friday, test, and there were no

637
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: other meetings. It was very easy on weeks when we

638
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: were not in design sprints. Then we had to figure

639
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,479
Speaker 1: out what to do. And one of the things that

640
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: John and my co author who was also my colleague

641
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: at Google Ventures, started doing was to batch our meetings

642
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: together because we wanted some of that great focus that

643
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: like the resource of having a day with no meetings

644
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: is it's really special. You can do different kinds of

645
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: things than even if you have one meeting, right, it

646
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: can kind of spoil the attention, Like I know, it's

647
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: coming up, and I'm like, kind of, I don't really

648
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: want to get all the way into something because I

649
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: know I'm going to have to go talk to that

650
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: person or whatever. And so an unspoiled, totally clear day

651
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: is really powerful. So we would block off two or

652
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: three days a week and have those be meeting free days,

653
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: and then batch together all of our meetings on the

654
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: other two days. So like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday might be

655
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: like just totally clear, and we would be focusing on

656
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: writing projects or design projects whatever. Thursday, Friday we would

657
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: just cram full of meetings. I'd be totally in meeting

658
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: mode on those days, and you know, I would actually

659
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: do a better job of being in meetings of you know,

660
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: advising companies or whatever it might be in those days

661
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: because I was totally locked in to that mode of

662
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: being in meeting mode. So that was the way I

663
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: dealt with it at Google Ventures. But there even still

664
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: I had a lot more control over my schedule than

665
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: I did when I was working at Google as an

666
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: individual contributor or you know, like the further back I

667
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: remember in my career, the less agency I had, and

668
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: so a lot of the tactics in Make Time are

669
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: about how to start creating that space from scratch, from

670
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: a situation where you might not have one hundred percent

671
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: control over the calendar. And one of the things that

672
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: I really like doing is, for one thing, just even

673
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: if you don't do anything to the calendar, but you

674
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: become aware of what's most important to you each day

675
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: with the highlight that changes the day. Now you know

676
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: where to give your attention. That's powerful if you can

677
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: then also block time for it on the calendar, so

678
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: you say, okay, the most important thing is that it's

679
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: not if it's not already a meeting or something, let

680
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: me actually place the time on the calendar so I

681
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: can defend it figure out when it's going to happen.

682
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: That's powerful. Over time, you can start blocking like a

683
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: recurring time on the calendar when it's your time to

684
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: do work, it's your time to do your highlight, whatever

685
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: it might be, and blocking it off might defend other

686
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: people from being able to take it over. And I

687
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: think that over time doing that, saying no to projects

688
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: that are you know, going to infringe on your ability

689
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 1: to do what you think is most important. You can

690
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: slowly apply you know, you can try to just slowly,

691
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: degree by degree, turn your your calendar into a base

692
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: camp calendar. And I actually think that's that's possible. You know,

693
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: there are cases where you're going to have to actually

694
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: have a tough discussion with a boss or a colleague

695
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: and explain why your prioritization needs to shift, why you

696
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: need that time back. But in many cases, the choice

697
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: to give up our time is one that we're making

698
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: ourselves by default. Like I would often just give up

699
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: my time because I'll say yes to meetings. I'll assume

700
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: that the default of I have to go to that

701
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: meeting is the correct one, when if I just didn't

702
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: show up, if I said no, the world wouldn't end

703
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: and I would be able to do a better job

704
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: on my own work.

705
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: When you did have less control over your working life,

706
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: like how did you get your boss or your coworkers

707
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: to kind of buy into what you were doing with

708
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: your time? Do you remember sort of any strategies that

709
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: you used back then, aside from blocking out that. I

710
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: guess one highlight if you like.

711
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: One thing that is really powerful and there's actually a

712
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: study about the power of the word because it's my gosh,

713
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: I can't remember the year. But it's long enough ago

714
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: that xerox machines were a big deal. So you know,

715
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: if if listeners are old enough to remember when we

716
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: used to have to make photocopies quite often, having to

717
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: make a xerox or a photocopy of something was a

718
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: really big deal, and and people would wait in line,

719
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: like I remember being a college student and waiting in

720
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: line to use a copy machine to copy off my paper.

721
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: So this study that they did was they were trying

722
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: to see what kinds of excuses would let would allow

723
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: people to sort of let people cut them and cut

724
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: in front of them in line to use the xerox machine.

725
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: And I mean they just wanted to. They were studying excuses,

726
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: not xeroxes in particular. But so what they found was

727
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: that when people used the word because, folks were crazily

728
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: more likely to let them cut in line, even if

729
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: the only thing they said was can I use the

730
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: xerox machine before you because I need to make copies?

731
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: If that was the only reason, because I need to

732
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: make copies, which is the only thing anyone who is

733
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: in line could do with a xerox machine. That's all

734
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: it did was make copies. But there's just something about

735
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: saying because that if they if somebody said, because I

736
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: need to make copies, versus saying, can I use the

737
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: xerox machine ahead of you? They like people were like

738
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: fifty percent more likely to let or something I can't

739
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: remember the exact number more likely to let them cut

740
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: in line. And it's not that this is like underhanded

741
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: or tricky, but if you tell people why you want

742
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: to do something different, people are much more accommodating than

743
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: I think we generally give them credit for. I think

744
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: generally in work environments where you know, if you if

745
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: you remember like starting your job, the first day you

746
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: start your job or any you know, you go into

747
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: a new workplace, it's natural that you're trying to figure out,

748
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: like what are the rules here? Like you know and

749
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: not that like in an office there's all these rules,

750
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: but you're kind of trying to figure out, like how

751
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: do stuff work. I remember starting to work at Google

752
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: or before that, I worked at Microsoft, and like starting

753
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: off a new project, new teams, new company, and like

754
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: trying to figure out, like how do things work? What

755
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: do you do? Like how do I get things done?

756
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: How do I be effective in my job? And how

757
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: do I also help other people do what they're trying

758
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: to do, and you're kind of on the lookout for

759
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: the norms and for like how to kind of make

760
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: sure you're working in the appropriate way. And we do

761
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: this out of the best of intentions, but the result

762
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: is that we're often like we get really set and

763
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: like stuck on these default ways that people behave. So

764
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: if you want to, for example, block off your mornings

765
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: every morning of the week from you know, I don't know,

766
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: eight am till eleven am or eight am till noon,

767
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: just to work on individual work and to be heads down,

768
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: to not let people interrupt you so that you can

769
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: do your own project that might break the norms of

770
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: what other people are doing, but just because it breaks

771
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: the norms, like you can't assume that people really care

772
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: about the norms that much. And if you tell people like,

773
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: I'm breaking the norm because and then you just give

774
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: them a reason why you're doing it, people are inclined

775
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: to let you do that, I think because sort of

776
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: unlocks this this feeling that we all have of like trust.

777
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: We generally want to trust one another and want to

778
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: give each other the benefit of the doubt. So yeah,

779
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: so My tactic would be, like back when I was

780
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: at Google, like, hey, I'm blocking this off or I'm

781
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: going to say no to that meeting or whatever because

782
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: I'm working on this project I'm working on. I would

783
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: tell people the name of the thing, you know, or

784
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: I might just say I'm working on an important project.

785
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: I can't do it right now, or I need this

786
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: time because I'm working on an important project. That was

787
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: really powerful putting a little signature at the bottom of

788
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: my email that said I'm only checking email two times

789
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: a day because I'm focusing on important work, and that

790
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 1: was always on there. You know, that was a powerful

791
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: way to let people know I'm not going to get

792
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: back to your email as fast as possible. But the

793
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: thing that actually was amazing about both of those things

794
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: was the most powerful signal wasn't to the other people.

795
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 1: It was to me. It was to tell me, Hey, Jake,

796
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: is okay to not check your email every five minutes.

797
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's okay to actually focus on that thing

798
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: that you think is important on in the mornings. I'm

799
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: giving myself permission by doing that. Other people are less

800
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: hard on us than we are hard on ourselves. Usually

801
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: about being true to what we believe is important.

802
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 3: That's such great advice.

803
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 2: And on the topic of email, yet you write a

804
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 2: little bit about email in Make Time, But I'm curious

805
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: right now, how do you approach email? I was interested

806
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: when I approached you. I emailed you to TV on

807
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: the show, and I think you took a few weeks

808
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: to respond, and you certainly didn't respond to my tweet

809
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: on Twitter, not that I was expecting that, but when

810
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 2: we started locking in a time, you were pretty fast

811
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: on the response. So I just want to know, like,

812
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: how are you approaching email and what was behind sort

813
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: of I guess that that strategy.

814
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've so I talk a bit about my strategy,

815
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: like there are some techniques that we talk about in

816
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: Make Time, and I've been thinking I should write up

817
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: the exact way that I do it. Now it's just

818
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: somewhat insane, I mean, and it doesn't It wouldn't work

819
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: for everybody, but I think there are elements of it

820
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: that could work for anybody. One of the things is

821
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: I try to be as slow as possible to respond

822
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: on email, like as slow as I feel like I

823
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: can possibly get away with, because I know that I

824
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: love email. I love it I love. I mean I've

825
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: been using it since it was there's this used to

826
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: be a tool called Pine you just like it was

827
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: just a text only interface for email. And when I

828
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: first saw email, I just thought, this is so magical

829
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: that you can just like send a message and it

830
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: just instantly goes wherever, like it just I don't know it.

831
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: It was just amazing to me, magical. And as I said,

832
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: I worked on the Gmail product for actually a few years,

833
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: and it's a powerful tool. Actually, Email sort of seems

834
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: kind of old fashioned, I guess in some ways nowadays,

835
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: and often we don't even pay attention to it because

836
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: it seems like just it's just like oxygen. It's everywhere,

837
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: like we don't really think about it. But it's really

838
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: powerful as this really powerful effect on our prioritization. I mean,

839
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: it's most of our to do lists live in our

840
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: email inboxes, and this feeling that we have to check

841
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: it all the time. You know, people criticize social media

842
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: all the time, but often we don't think about the

843
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 1: distraction email causes. And so anyway, it's it's really powerful,

844
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: sort of has this control over our time in a

845
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: way that no other tool does. I believe but yeah,

846
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 1: so so for me trying to restrict myself from using email,

847
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: it's actually like I have to hold myself back like

848
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: if it took me like if it and it sometimes

849
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: will take me like a couple months to get back

850
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: to people on email. It's not because like what I

851
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: most want to do is answer email like I would

852
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: like I want to like go because it's it's easy.

853
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm making progress, I'm communicating with people

854
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: like it gives me these small senses of productivity. The

855
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: problem is that productivity gets in the way of being purposeful,

856
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: and so productivity versus purposeful is a concept I've been

857
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: thinking about a lot, and productivity is like a way

858
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: to measure a factory, Like if a factory cranks out

859
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: a lot to widgets, then it's a productive factory and

860
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: it's doing lots of things. And I think that all

861
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: of our obsession with productivity and work is misplaced because

862
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: it treats humans like we're a factory, like making widgets,

863
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: making things, making as many little things as possible, where

864
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: it's like if you're purposeful, you might be doing a

865
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: lot less. But you know, it's back to that idea

866
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: of deep work versus shallow work. You're doing things that matter,

867
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: and email is for me, it's just something that I

868
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: will burn up a ton of time and energy on

869
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: if I don't get control of it. So the way

870
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: I handle it is, for one thing, I have to

871
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: lock myself out of it. I use this tool called freedom,

872
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: so I not only don't have it on my phone,

873
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: but I also have to lock myself out of it

874
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: on the computer so that I will force myself to

875
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: write or to do whatever sort of more meaningful project

876
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: at the time I need to work on each day.

877
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: So I'm locked out of email between like from in

878
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: the morning all the way till ten am, and then

879
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: I think it shuts off again at eleven am, so

880
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: I have like a one hour window and then it's

881
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 1: shut off until three pm. So even during the day,

882
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: like I have very limited windows, so I really only

883
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: have those two chances to check email. And then the

884
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: other thing I'll do is when I'm traveling or when

885
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: I have stuff going on, I try to go all

886
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: in on those projects, whatever it might be if I'm

887
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: teaching workshops or when I was promoting make time. So

888
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: when you wrote to me, it's around the time when

889
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm was promoting make time, and I try to give

890
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: myself permission to let the email just pile up, with

891
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: the idea that I'll actually be more effective answering it

892
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: if I do it in a batch. Later on, I

893
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: know that if something is really pressing an urgent people

894
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: will they'll find a way to contact me otherwise, you know,

895
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: and folks who I already know, or folks who've already

896
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: started having a conversation with on email, like those messages

897
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: will come to the top. People can you know, text

898
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: me if they have my phone number, And so I

899
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: found that the urgent stuff will come through. Sometimes there

900
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: are little bad things that happen, and this is something

901
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 1: Tim Ferriss I think uses this phrase of like letting

902
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: little bad things happen. You have to be willing to

903
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: do that, you know, sort of in the service of

904
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: doing these larger projects. But for me, it's all about

905
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: whatever I can do to slow down the inbox, to

906
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: resist my desire to be on it. And I actually

907
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: I used to teach a class at Google on how

908
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: to keep your inbox empty at all times, and so

909
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: I have gone way down the rabbit hole in that direction.

910
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: But now I've reformed. I think that's actually the wrong

911
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: way to do it. So I'm trying to put on

912
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: the brakes all the time.

913
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: That's awesome, And I got to say I love the

914
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 2: freedom app. I'll link to a lot of the things

915
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: that we've been talking about in the show notes. But

916
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: I feel like that is that is gold. If you

917
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: don't have the willpower and coun't people the resisting temptation,

918
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: then just take it away with freedom, which can block

919
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: you out of really anything that you want. I want

920
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: to start sort of asking just a few wrap up,

921
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: sort of rapid fire questions because we are over time

922
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: and I need to get what you get.

923
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 3: No, I could just keep on chatting. This is great.

924
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 3: I want to know.

925
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 2: Like one of the things I always ask yes is

926
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: because I think like there's so much information out there,

927
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: and I know that you're you're not a consumer of

928
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: a lot of things like the news, for example, and

929
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: I want to I feel like it's really valuable to know, well,

930
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 2: what are you consuming? So on the topic of books,

931
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 2: and I think let's go with the genre of you know,

932
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: being more purposeful with your time. What are what are

933
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: your sort of you know, one or two or three

934
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: kind of go to books that have really changed your thinking.

935
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: One of the things that changed my thinking a lot. Well, gosh,

936
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: I'll talk about three. I guess the first one is

937
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: Deep Work. I mean, I think that's a great One's

938
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: very recent. I feel like that I read that. Actually

939
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: we were already underway writing Make Time, and a lot

940
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: of people have pointed out there's the philosophies are so similar.

941
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: The approach, the way we talk about what to do

942
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: or advise people want to do, and even sort of

943
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: I think the tone of the writing is very different,

944
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: but the philosophies, I think we're just like so similar,

945
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: and so I love I love that book. And if

946
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: you either if you pick up Make Time and you

947
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: feel like, oh this isn't like kind of serious or

948
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: academic enough, or if you like Make Time but you're

949
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: like I want to know more. I want to know

950
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: more about like the science behind this or like really

951
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: deep you know, like thinking behind this. Call Newport's Deep

952
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: Work is great, and it's it's just he's a super

953
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: smart guy and and really really opinionated, And that's a

954
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: that's a good one to read for me. The two

955
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: other books that I think we were so powerful for me. God. Actually,

956
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: there's three other ones I want to talk about. You

957
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: said they we're gonna be fast questions. Sorry, I'll try

958
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: to be fast. Yeah. One of them is Getting Real,

959
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: which is written by Jason Freed of base Camp, Jason

960
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: Freed and David henemeier Hand, And they wrote this before

961
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: base Camp was base Camp, when it used to be

962
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: called thirty seven Signals, and it was a free book

963
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: that you could download online. They self published it. You

964
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: can still like you can, I think you can buy it,

965
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: but you can also just read it online. So if

966
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: you search for Getting Real thirty seven Signals or Getting

967
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: Real base Camp, I think you'll find it. And that

968
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: book eventually was like sort of rewritten and expanded and

969
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: revised and became Rework, which was a you know, like

970
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 1: a regular real published book that you could buy everywhere.

971
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: But I read Getting Real back in two thousand and

972
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: six or whenever it came out. I was working at Microsoft,

973
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: and it just was like, you know, their whole approach

974
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: to saying like, hey, like the way work works doesn't

975
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: have to be that way. I was like, wow, like

976
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: that's it. Just it opened my mind. I need a

977
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: lot of that philosophy. Stuck with me through thinking about

978
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: the design sprint, which was really trying to wipe away

979
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: all of the default ways we did work and create

980
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: a recipe for doing it a different way. Stuck with

981
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: me through kind of thinking about how I handled my

982
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: own work. That's a powerful one. Another one that was

983
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: really powerful for me is Getting Things Done, which is

984
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: just like the classic productivity book, and I think that

985
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: applying so this by David Allen Getting Things Done. And

986
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, most people, I think maybe have heard of

987
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: this book already. It's a very prescriptive sort of system

988
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: for handling to dos and for handling you know, email

989
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: and messages and like everything that we have to do

990
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: in our lives and how to get them done. Now,

991
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: for me, there are problems with the system. It's too perfect.

992
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: And when I was was running the system perfectly, I

993
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: was just kind of servicing the system, and I found

994
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: I was just kind of reacting to other people's priorities.

995
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: I couldn't. It was like it was like it consumed me.

996
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: And then when I wasn't doing it right, I felt guilty.

997
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: Now that's just me. A lot of people have success

998
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: with it and they sort of get this freedom from it.

999
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: That I never quite got to. But I would say

1000
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: that the philosophy, the way he talks about how sort

1001
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: of breaking things down into smaller components, and like the

1002
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: almost like the it's almost like a bit a bit

1003
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: like philosophical or even like like like like meditative at times,

1004
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: like he's talking about unlocking psychic energy by doing some

1005
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, tasks that you haven't been able to start.

1006
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: And it's really true, and I think it gave me

1007
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: sort of a like a sense of the power of

1008
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: rethinking the way we do our work. Anyway, I love

1009
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: I love the way he talks about doing stuff. And

1010
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: then the third one I want to recommend is the

1011
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: Happiness Fourth I guess it's fourth, can't count. The fourth

1012
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: one is the Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin. And the

1013
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: Happiness Project is so great. It's just she spent a

1014
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: year doing experiments herself to try to be happier, not

1015
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: to try to do the you know, like a lot

1016
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: of the things we do are with an end goal

1017
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: of being happy. And she was like, well, let's just

1018
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: cut right to the quick. What makes people happier? And

1019
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: it's it really also made me think about how to

1020
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: run experiments and treat what was going on in my

1021
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: life day to day as an experiment, which is a

1022
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: big idea in Make Time. Sorry, that wasn't rapid fire

1023
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: at all. I'll do better.

1024
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 3: It's so funny.

1025
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: No one answers these rapid fire questions rapidly, so pretty

1026
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 2: much like every other guest. I love the Happiness Project.

1027
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 2: That would be one of my favorites as well. It's

1028
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 2: such a cool book.

1029
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 3: I want to ask.

1030
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: I want to ask about apps and tools that you're using,

1031
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: and look, I'll put a link to I think it

1032
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 2: was the resources page on the Make Time website where

1033
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 2: you list to quite a few different tools.

1034
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 3: But what are your favorites?

1035
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 2: You mentioned freedom and either online or offline tools that

1036
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 2: you feel kind of things that you use almost on

1037
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: a daily basis at the moment.

1038
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have an app coming out for Make Time,

1039
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: and depending on when this episode comes out, it'll come

1040
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: out in the app will come out in January, So

1041
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: if folks are listening to this in January or after

1042
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: January twenty nineteen or after, you can look for the

1043
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 1: Make Time app. And that's sort of a it's meant

1044
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 1: hopefully it works well. I hope it's really a shame

1045
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 1: if it doesn't, since I'm a product designer and it's

1046
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: the book, but it's a it's a way to sort

1047
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: of apply this idea of creating a highlight and actually

1048
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 1: like making time for it. It has a timetimer. So

1049
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: one of the things I love is a physical time timer.

1050
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: This is the name of this timer, and they're really great.

1051
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: They have a little dial that you turn and you

1052
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: can see the time lapse as it just helps me

1053
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: focus on whatever I'm doing. That's kind of built into

1054
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: the app as well, but you can buy physical ones.

1055
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: So Timetimer is one. Make Time app is one. There's

1056
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: an app called Block and Flow that I really like.

1057
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: Is just a very simple, very positive way to nudge

1058
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: me towards focusing on an activity. And I really like

1059
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: that one. It's it's a it's a nice little app

1060
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: called Block and Flow I really like. Quite honestly, I

1061
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: think a very powerful apps are the reminders app and

1062
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: the notes app on the phone, and because I have

1063
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: so stripped down what's on my phone to such a

1064
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: great extent, I don't have much on there, but actually

1065
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: the ability to be able to type in notes on

1066
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: the phone and then have it sink and be available

1067
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: everywhere is really amazing. It's magical. I just think back

1068
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: to like eleven years ago when we didn't have iPhones,

1069
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: like that was amazing. That's an amazing thing to have

1070
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: being able to talk to the phone and say, remind

1071
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: me of this thing at that time so that it

1072
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: goes out of my head and Siri like listens to

1073
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 1: what I say and does it. Like that's amazing. That's

1074
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: enough for me for the the iPhone to be so though,

1075
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,439
Speaker 1: some of those simple tools are so powerful. And then

1076
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: I guess, as we already talked about freedom, freedom is

1077
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: a huge one. So just like letting me make the

1078
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: choice once that I want to be offline and focused,

1079
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: and then I don't have to use willpower anymore. It

1080
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: sort of takes care of it for me.

1081
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: Awesome, awesome. And look, finally, how can people find you,

1082
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: Jake and read more of your stuff?

1083
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:02,919
Speaker 2: Oh?

1084
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the two places I would direct people are

1085
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: to jakenap dot com and I have like you'll find

1086
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: links to my books and links to some of my

1087
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: blog posts, and you'll also find link to my podcast.

1088
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: That's the other place I would say you could check out.

1089
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: My podcast is called product breakfast club. It's I don't

1090
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: really know what it's about, but it's me and my

1091
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 1: friend John just kind of rambling and talking about stuff

1092
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: and occasionally we talk about business and design and ways

1093
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: of working. But it's much less it's much less focused

1094
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: than this conversation was, but sometimes fun.

1095
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: It's so it's so much fun.

1096
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 2: I got to say, I love your podcast and and

1097
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 2: for those that have listened to these episode, I reckon

1098
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: a great one to start with is the interview that

1099
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: you guys do with Jason Freed from Vice Camp.

1100
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 3: That was That was such a fantastic chat.

1101
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was that was a lot of That was

1102
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. He schooled us on uh on

1103
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,280
Speaker 1: all things products business.

1104
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: Cool.

1105
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: Cool.

1106
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 3: Well, look, thank you so much for your time, Jake.

1107
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 2: The day has only just started here in Melbourne, Australia,

1108
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 2: where I'm based, but this has definitely been the highlight

1109
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: of my days.

1110
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: So so thank you so much.

1111
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: This has been super fun. Thanks for having me on

1112
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: about that.

1113
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 3: Hello there, that is it for today's show.

1114
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Jake Napp. I

1115
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: would encourage you to read Make Time. It's a great

1116
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 2: book and there's also an app available. I think if

1117
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 2: you search for make Time wherever you download your apps from,

1118
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 2: you'll be able to find it. And as always, if

1119
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 2: you like How I Work, if you like today's show,

1120
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 2: or enjoying the whole show in general, please tell a

1121
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: friend or maybe several friends, maybe hundreds of friends about

1122
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 2: How I Work. It's generally how podcasts like this get

1123
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: discovered through word of mouth, so I would be eternally

1124
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 2: grateful if you did that. And also, if you feel

1125
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: like being doubly awesome, leave a review for How I

1126
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 2: Work in iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

1127
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 3: So that is it for this show. I'll see you

1128
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 3: next time.