1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast with Dr Justin Coilson, where 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Luke and Susie, parents of three little boys, and this 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: is the podcast for those of us who are time 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: poor parents. But just one answers, Now, when I was 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: a kid, you turned out all right, didn't you say? 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: Well, this is the line that we can sometimes hear 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: and sometimes even think as parents that whole it happened 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: to me when I was a kid and not turned 9 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: out all right. 10 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: And so it's a decision between whether or not you 11 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: parents your children, allowing them or encouraging them to do 12 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: the things that happen with. 13 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 3: You because because you turned out all right. 14 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: And when someone who tells us that maybe that method 15 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: is not the right method, and we fight back with 16 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: I turned out all right, is that a justifiable response 17 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: or do we need to stop, take a step back 18 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: and maybe reassess the situation. 19 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 2: Dr Justin Coilson from Happy Families dot com dot Au. 20 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 4: That's it. 21 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 5: I know I've heard of him before. We've had a 22 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 5: conversation or two, haven't we. 23 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: You've talked about resilient You've got a book about resilient 24 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: kids actually how to raise them, and and this is 25 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: a great question. I think in the midst of that 26 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: whole Oh, our kids are going to be fine. Our 27 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 2: kids are going to be resilient and perfect. Is that 28 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: happened to me when I was a kid. I turned 29 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: out okay, Therefore I. 30 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 4: Can do it to my kids as well. 31 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 5: You know, I was on the Telly I can't actually 32 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 5: remember which morning show it was, but it was one 33 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 5: of the one of the morning shows about a year ago, 34 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 5: and they were doing a poll about whether we should 35 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 5: be making it illegal to smack our kids, right, And 36 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 5: I think I was the only voice in Australia that 37 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 5: was saying it should be illegal. You know, it's not 38 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 5: okay to smack your kids. And the overwhelming response from 39 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 5: people on social media as these things were read. 40 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 4: Out was well, I was a smack. 41 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 5: I was smacked as a kid, and I turned out fine, 42 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 5: and I just kind of it's been under my skin 43 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 5: ever since it got in my crawl because the research 44 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 5: evidence is absolutely indisputable. There is not a single piece 45 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 5: of evidence that shows that there are any positive outcomes 46 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 5: from smacking our kids. And we've got fifty sixty years 47 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 5: of research evidence on this. Now about abuse, I'm talking 48 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 5: about what Americans called spanking. Okay, so the research from 49 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 5: around the world looks at spanking or smacking rather than 50 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 5: abusive behaviors, and I will suggest that that is on 51 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 5: a continuum of abuse anyway, and the research shows there's 52 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 5: no but there's no there's no justifiable reason for it. 53 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 5: And yet we hear again and again, well I was 54 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 5: smacked as a child, and I turned out it's. 55 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 4: Not just smacking. 56 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've got we've gone through that debate because 57 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: you're not advocating for lack of discipline or of course, 58 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: like there's you know, you're really strong and discipline. 59 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: It's just how you go. 60 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 4: I just don't need to be guided. 61 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: But there's other areas other than smacking where this kind 62 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: of justification comes up a lot. We've talked about alcohol 63 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: and whether or not you allow a teenager to try 64 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: a beer while it's under your and that's what happened 65 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: to me. So therefore, and I turned out, Okay, great example. 66 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: So everything that we go through where someone challenges bike helmets, yeah, yeah, 67 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: we didn't wear helmets when we were a cure. And yeah, 68 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: my parents drive cars without. 69 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: Seatbelts, sometimes without seats. 70 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: My dad drove a car without a license for years 71 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: out in the farming community. He turned out fine, he 72 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: could drive, he was no problems. But then when it 73 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: comes to your kids, like when how does how you 74 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: were brought up justify turning out fine to this? And 75 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: so this is an interesting thing to explore. How valid 76 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: a response is I turned out fine to making some decisions. 77 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 4: You're getting be steamed up already. Oh gosh. 78 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 5: Well, there's two psychological things. I'm going to get a 79 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 5: little bit technical for a second. There's this thing called 80 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 5: an anecdotal fallacy. Okay, So an anecdote, it's something that 81 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 5: happens to you or to someone. Therefore you've got to 82 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 5: sample size of one one. Yeah, And it's a fallacy 83 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 5: because well, a fallacy is just this idea that's incorrect. 84 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 5: So something happens to me, and because it didn't lead 85 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 5: to anything negative for me, therefore it could happen to 86 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 5: everybody else and nothing negative will happen to them either, 87 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 5: And it flies in. 88 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 4: The face of what research is all about. 89 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: Right. 90 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 5: Research says, let's look at what happens with everybody and say, 91 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 5: on every this is the outcome. 92 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 4: We can ext normal. 93 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: The normal curve, and we go through this. In radio research, 94 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: all the time. 95 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: If we try and program a radio station to the 96 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: weird good, the things that turned out fine in spite of, 97 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: then we would actually would never achieve the things that 98 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: we want to achieve. If we the program towards the 99 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: weird bad, the thing the bad things that happened in 100 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: spite of it would be horrible. We program towards the 101 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: normal curve. 102 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's where because everybody in the middle. 103 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 5: There's a few people at the either end of the spectrum, 104 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 5: but everybody sort of sits in the middle. So the 105 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 5: anecdotal fallacy pretty much means if if it happens to 106 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 5: you and you turned out fine, maybe you're a little 107 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 5: bit weird. 108 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 3: Exactly what else? 109 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 5: Oh, Well, there's a thing that psychologists call the availability heuristic, 110 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 5: and that's where we kind of rely on information that's 111 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 5: easily accessible to us so that we can make our judgments. 112 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 5: But the reality is we don't know everything, and so 113 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 5: if we're just relying on what we know, well, I mean, 114 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 5: that's kind of what we how we get through life anyway. Right, 115 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 5: But if there's a whole lot of research out there 116 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 5: with experts telling us we've studied this with. 117 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 4: Tiens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people. 118 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 5: That's supposed to diminish our reliance on that availability heuristic. 119 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 5: But a lot of people don't pay any attention. 120 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: So point number one is you've got a sample size 121 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: of one. Maybe you've got five people around you, and 122 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: you've got a sample size of five with anecdotal stories. 123 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: But in this go, well, you're only you've only got 124 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: five stories available to you. Let's have a look at 125 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: one hundred or a thousand or ten thousand. I'll see 126 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: whether it's consistent with the rest of them. 127 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 128 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 5: But more than that, guys, I think that I turned 129 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 5: out fine is an arrogant dismissal of what is an 130 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 5: often well thought out and deeply evidenced. 131 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 4: Well substantiated point of view. I turned out. 132 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 5: Fine is a statement that requires no perspective. It requires 133 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 5: no engagement with an alternative perspective. It closes off discourse 134 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 5: and promotes this singular point of view that's completely oblivious 135 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 5: to any other alternatives that might be enlightened. Sorry, I 136 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 5: used a lot of big words then. 137 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: But basically you're saying you're only really thinking about the 138 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 2: people who are your fans when you say I turned 139 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: out fine, yeah, with the people who are your enemies 140 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: say the same thing about you, I guess so. 141 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, well so when I in some of the teaching 142 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: I do with sort of media students, one of the 143 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: things I'm talked about is feedback, and I go, if 144 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: you get a complaint that is ridiculous and wrong in 145 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: coming from someone who's completely unqualified, my challenge to them 146 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: is you still need to stop and look and go 147 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: what can I learn from this? What's in their opinion 148 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: that maybe can help me do what I do better? 149 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: Because I go otherwise you're just being arrogant that you 150 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: know everything. Maybe any bit of data can help you 151 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: see something more. So, even in this situation, you go 152 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: in the end, you might disagree with the premise of 153 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: the research or whatever, but at least be open to 154 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: explore there's other information than just your anecdotal experience. Don't 155 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: be so arrogant to block off the possibility of learning. 156 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 5: And what I'd also say, Luke, is that you know 157 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 5: you're saying that about somebody who doesn't know anything. 158 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 4: So when an expert who spent years. 159 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 5: Or decades researching a certain thing has something to say, 160 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 5: it's probably. 161 00:06:58,520 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 4: Worth being open. 162 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely Okay, so we're taken away the arrogance, we're 163 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: taken away the dismiss or there could be other information 164 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: outside of our own experiences. 165 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, but last of all, I mean, what's fine anyway? Right? 166 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 5: I turned out fine? Where's our threshold for fine? Is 167 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 5: it staying out of the police station or the mental 168 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 5: institution meaning you turned out fine? Or is it some 169 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 5: other kind of a benchmark when we say I turned 170 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 5: out fine? If we're doing the exact same thing that 171 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 5: happened to us that research suggests is not a good 172 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 5: thing to happen, I would argue that perhaps we didn't 173 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 5: turn out so fine, and it would be valuable to 174 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 5: at least consider our ways. 175 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: And isn't it one of the most common things that 176 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: we say as parents that I just want my kids 177 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: to have more better that we Actually we don't want 178 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: our children to turn out with the same possibilities and 179 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: opportunities that we have, no matter how good our life was. 180 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 3: We want more for them, don't we. 181 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 4: So we've got to be better, So. 182 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 3: We have to do things something different. 183 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 4: Does that mean that we didn't turn out fine? No, 184 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 4: I'm now confused. 185 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: Doctor Justin Coilson, thanks for leaving us with the question. 186 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, make us think for ourselves. 187 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to 188 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: rate it on iTunes. When you do that, it increases 189 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: the visibility of the podcast and helps more people to 190 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: find it. And if you're not a subscriber, jump onto 191 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and subscribe so that you can hear every 192 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information 193 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts, 194 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot au. Or if 195 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: you'd like to have doctor Justin Coulson speak at your 196 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: school or event, go to Justinculson dot com.