WEBVTT - How much does it cost to kill someone?

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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<v Speaker 1>Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Tuesday,

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<v Speaker 2>the first of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Nina Koppule standing in Fazzara.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been a spate of shooting since Sydney.

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<v Speaker 1>A man executed while sitting in his vehicle in the

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<v Speaker 1>underground car park of an apartment complex in busy Vondai Junction.

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<v Speaker 4>Two men have been shot in a brazen daylight attack

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<v Speaker 4>at a Marrickville.

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<v Speaker 3>Barberup been breaking news.

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<v Speaker 4>A man in his thirties has been shot outside a

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<v Speaker 4>home in the Sydney suburb of Green. Sydney's gun crime

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<v Speaker 4>epidemic has claimed two more lives, with a man gunned down.

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<v Speaker 1>At Canterbury early today, his body lying in the street

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<v Speaker 1>with children walking by.

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<v Speaker 2>We believe the shootings are related to drug gangs in

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<v Speaker 2>Sydney's criminal underworld. But why has this escalation happened now?

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<v Speaker 2>And if the police know what's fueling this violence, why

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<v Speaker 2>can't they stop those responsible? Daily Telegraph Crime editor Mark

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<v Speaker 2>Murray is going to answer those questions and more in

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<v Speaker 2>a very interesting deep dive. But first, Nina, it was

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<v Speaker 2>a very sad day for AFL fans yesterday and.

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<v Speaker 3>A very sad day for you, Sam.

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<v Speaker 2>I know it hit you as a hard one.

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<v Speaker 3>Buddy Franklin has announced his retirement from the AFL, effective immediately.

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<v Speaker 3>The Swan's forward debuted in two thousand and five and

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<v Speaker 3>played three hundred and fifty four games for Hawthorne and Sydney.

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<v Speaker 3>He kicked one thousand and sixty six goals. That's the

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<v Speaker 3>fourth most of all time.

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<v Speaker 2>Tasmanian authorities have confirmed a body found in Bushland last

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<v Speaker 2>week as missing teen SHANEA Lee Tatnell. DNA testing formally

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<v Speaker 2>identified the fourteen year old who went missing from Lonceston

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<v Speaker 2>in April. A thirty six year old man has been

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<v Speaker 2>charged with murder in relation to her discs appearance.

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<v Speaker 3>The Australian Space Agency has shared its findings surrounding the

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<v Speaker 3>origins of an object that washed up on a Wa beach.

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<v Speaker 3>The agency says they believe the two hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 3>kilogram object is most likely debrithe from a polar satellite

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<v Speaker 3>launch vehicle operated by the Indian Space Research Organization.

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<v Speaker 2>And today's good news if you think you slept in

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<v Speaker 2>on the weekend are preserved. Forty six thousand year old

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<v Speaker 2>roundworm has been revived after it was found in Siberian permafrost.

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<v Speaker 2>Scientists hope the findings will help them better understand evolutionary processes.

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<v Speaker 3>That is actually wild.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a long time to be asleep. There's been a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of stories in the news in the last few

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<v Speaker 2>weeks about shootings in Sydney and their connections to drug

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<v Speaker 2>gangs and underworld crime, and I had a lot of questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to know what was going on and what

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<v Speaker 2>really needs to happen to bring this violence to an end.

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<v Speaker 2>So I thought who better to ask than crime editor

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<v Speaker 2>at the Daily Telegraph, Mark Murray. You might know him

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<v Speaker 2>from his explainers on TikTok, but he's been following this

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<v Speaker 2>story since the seventies. Mark, thanks so much for joining

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<v Speaker 2>us on the zeliazz this morning, talk to you. So

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<v Speaker 2>just over the last month, we've seen multiple shootings in Sydney.

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<v Speaker 2>At one point there was a number of shootings across

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<v Speaker 2>a five day period. For those of us who literally

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<v Speaker 2>have no idea where this story starts, what's happening here.

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<v Speaker 4>Well it said in five days we had three young

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<v Speaker 4>people shot at green Acre in the middle of the night.

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<v Speaker 4>Now one of those has since died, but two of

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<v Speaker 4>those were believed to be totally innocent, where the target

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<v Speaker 4>was a twenty four year old man and one of

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<v Speaker 4>the bullet straight and hit a young couple. Then there

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<v Speaker 4>was another shooting at Canterbury where a young drug dealer

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<v Speaker 4>was filled. In between we had a defense lawyer, Mamouda

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<v Speaker 4>Bass who was very high profile. He was shot outside

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<v Speaker 4>he's homing no Bankstown and lived so and then there

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<v Speaker 4>was another shooting as well. So I've had five people

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<v Speaker 4>injured in five days and you know, one of them

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<v Speaker 4>the bodies was laying in the middle of the street

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<v Speaker 4>in Canterbury where young school children were walking past before

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<v Speaker 4>it was covered. And that's really raised a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>people's news about what's going on in our streets.

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<v Speaker 2>But where has this all come from, like, is this

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<v Speaker 2>just an annual occurrence or is there something particularly at

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<v Speaker 2>play here that's led to this spike?

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<v Speaker 4>Now you do find little clusters. I'll be honest. I've

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<v Speaker 4>been around a long time, you know, and I've been

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<v Speaker 4>watching these shootings and I've seen it a lot worse,

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<v Speaker 4>which is a pretty sad thing to say. But what

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<v Speaker 4>we've found it's all being driven by drug money. Invariably,

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<v Speaker 4>it's by the fact that somebody either has bought, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>a whole lot of cocaine and not paid the dealer,

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<v Speaker 4>or somebody strayed into someone's territory and that's created a

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<v Speaker 4>problem because the amount of money being made from cocaine

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<v Speaker 4>is enormous, and especially in Sydney, we pay the highest

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<v Speaker 4>prices in the world. That makes it the most profitable.

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<v Speaker 2>And so are you comfortable linking all of these murders

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of that wider drug trade?

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<v Speaker 4>Invariably, although in the last two years there's been over

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<v Speaker 4>twenty people murdered, some of those innocent victims, now, not

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<v Speaker 4>all of them are strictly related to the drug trade.

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<v Speaker 4>They may be amongst criminals who are involved in the

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<v Speaker 4>drug trade who have got a personal vendetta or hate

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<v Speaker 4>each other, or they just become enemies, you know, but

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<v Speaker 4>it starts invariably with a drug war.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you know all of this? And that's a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of an odd question, But where are you basing

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<v Speaker 2>this information off?

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<v Speaker 4>I'll be really honest. For many, many years, I've been

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<v Speaker 4>in Sydney, based in Sydney, I had a short stint overseas,

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<v Speaker 4>so I've got to know a lot of police officers

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<v Speaker 4>over the years. But i also have a number of

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<v Speaker 4>underworld contacts that I've got to know over the years.

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<v Speaker 4>And myself and another reporter, josh Hanrahan, you know, we

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<v Speaker 4>spent a lot of time going out and about and

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<v Speaker 4>you get information and we've verify it. Like I'll get

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<v Speaker 4>an information from a guy who's a crook or then

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<v Speaker 4>a crook, and then I'll go and make sure that

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<v Speaker 4>I get it verified, maybe by a police officer. We

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<v Speaker 4>don't report rumor. We have to double check everything, right,

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<v Speaker 4>Sometimes something's a bit murky because, as you can understand,

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<v Speaker 4>in this world, not everybody's honest. Yeah, and also the

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<v Speaker 4>police sometimes very very protective of their information. They don't

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<v Speaker 4>like things getting out there because it tips off people

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<v Speaker 4>they might be arresting or plans they have. So it's

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<v Speaker 4>a fine line walking between both the crooks and the cops.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's what you have to do to try and

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<v Speaker 4>do what we do where I'm well.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm interested then with your sense of how the underworld

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<v Speaker 2>in Sydney is feeling at the moment. Is there a

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<v Speaker 2>sense of fear within your key contacts now because of

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<v Speaker 2>this spate of shootings, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>There is. You really, You've hit it right on the head.

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<v Speaker 4>At the moment, there'd be eighty to one hundred well

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<v Speaker 4>known Sydney crooks who are living overseas and either eleven

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<v Speaker 4>nine or Turkey. Most of them are dual nationals who

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<v Speaker 4>have got out of Sydney in the last year or two.

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<v Speaker 4>Because when you have these shootings going on, the police

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<v Speaker 4>do go out there and start smashing anybody in everyone

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<v Speaker 4>they can. They've got to be seen to be doing

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<v Speaker 4>things making life hell, even if they can't get them

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<v Speaker 4>on serious charges. But because of the way that people

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<v Speaker 4>are being shot outside gyms and a frequency, a lot

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<v Speaker 4>have got out of Sydney because they're worried they're going

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<v Speaker 4>to be shot.

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<v Speaker 2>So if we kind of know that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these shootings have drugs and this gang revenge rivalry behind them.

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<v Speaker 2>Why do you think it's so hard for police to

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<v Speaker 2>stop them and not put those serious charges on them,

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<v Speaker 2>as you're saying, and have to kind of skirt around

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<v Speaker 2>the edges.

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<v Speaker 4>Because the criminals have got very, very good at getting

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<v Speaker 4>rid of evidence. There'll be three or four cars stolen.

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<v Speaker 4>Sometimes some of those cars are stolen for a year

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<v Speaker 4>ago and are put in storage. They then get on

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<v Speaker 4>fire to get rid of DNA. Good prince, there's another

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<v Speaker 4>car waiting. A lot of the times, the people stealing

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<v Speaker 4>the car seldom to people who then pass them on

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<v Speaker 4>to other people who have no idea. So the big

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<v Speaker 4>players are very care There was actually one that was

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<v Speaker 4>in a court case and I was amazed when I

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<v Speaker 4>saw it a police it intercepted a bone and in

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<v Speaker 4>it they saw in the WhatsApp group there was a

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<v Speaker 4>chat saying who will go and hit so and so

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<v Speaker 4>for one hundred thousand? So there was a WhatsApp group

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<v Speaker 4>advertising for a hit.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that kind of how much it costs to kill

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<v Speaker 2>someone these days? Is about one hundred thousand?

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<v Speaker 4>It depends a lot. That was an old one for

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<v Speaker 4>a start, you got to think I know this sounds

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<v Speaker 4>a good crass, but there's a lot of overheads, so

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<v Speaker 4>one hundred thousand is fairly cheap. It does depend on

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<v Speaker 4>who the target is. There was Memordian, there was shot

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<v Speaker 4>Bondi Junction. He was a high ranking common hero who

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<v Speaker 4>was taking precautions. Now I've heard conservatively that would have

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<v Speaker 4>cost anywhere from six hundred thousand to a million. Well

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<v Speaker 4>that's because he's such a big player. Lots there were

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<v Speaker 4>two good shooters, two or three style and guns. Then

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<v Speaker 4>there are day houses for those guys to go to.

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<v Speaker 4>The guns cost money. But there are other people out there.

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<v Speaker 4>There are the very young young criminals in young gangs,

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<v Speaker 4>particularly young Islanders as Syrians, who are preyed upon by

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<v Speaker 4>the organized crime groups, who are willing to try and

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<v Speaker 4>shoot people for not a lot of money. And again

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<v Speaker 4>they were really being paid by a whole range of exmedia.

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<v Speaker 4>So that that protects people. So said, there've been a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of people arrested for lying us for these murders,

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<v Speaker 4>but the police haven't put up the chain a lot

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<v Speaker 4>because all those buddy is the way they've got so

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<v Speaker 4>clever at doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's clear that organized criminals in Sydney, but I'd

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<v Speaker 2>say probably more broadly speaking, across Australia have leveled up.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think of the police response? So news others.

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<v Speaker 2>Police have launched this task force, task Force Magnus. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you think that'll be effective in stopping the next five shootings?

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<v Speaker 4>I think that task Force Magnet has been announced publicly,

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<v Speaker 4>who vacate the public? Will they stop the next five shootings?

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<v Speaker 4>They will, They'll stop some shootings, but not all of them,

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<v Speaker 4>and then they have to get practical. I can't keep

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<v Speaker 4>all these crops on the street twenty four to seven

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<v Speaker 4>without having blowing the state budget, and then the shootings

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<v Speaker 4>will start again. As I said, I've been seeing it

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<v Speaker 4>going on and off for forty years, and there might

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<v Speaker 4>be a lull for six months, twelve months, then there

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<v Speaker 4>will be another another crew that will come along and

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<v Speaker 4>then they'll start. They'll start a war.

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<v Speaker 2>So what is the solution then? How do you cut

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<v Speaker 2>their head off the snake?

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<v Speaker 4>You have to stop drugs coming into the city or

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<v Speaker 4>which I don't think will really work. We've got to

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<v Speaker 4>stop people taking drugs. I've spoken to cops. I'm just

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<v Speaker 4>going well, look, we know that all these cocaines driving

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<v Speaker 4>all these gang wars. What happens if we legalize it

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<v Speaker 4>and they go, well, you'll still have the cartels try

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<v Speaker 4>to come in and undercut the legal market. That makes

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<v Speaker 4>it a bit difficult. I really don't understand where how

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<v Speaker 4>we can stop. You know, it's I said, ideally beef

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<v Speaker 4>there was no production out of South America and no tatanin.

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<v Speaker 4>But that's just an unrealistic So I don't know. What

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<v Speaker 4>we've got to stop is the new breed of shooter.

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<v Speaker 4>Is what worries me is they are so reckless. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>the guy's going into the barber shop in marrit Fort

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<v Speaker 4>on a Friday afternoon an opening fire. There was another

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<v Speaker 4>incident LUs year outside of gym and the bullet strayed

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<v Speaker 4>and went into a childcare center next door. In the eighties,

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<v Speaker 4>I remember covering there was a Ganglan war where eight

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<v Speaker 4>to ten people were shot went missing. Now I think

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<v Speaker 4>one of those one was in the daytime. The rest

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<v Speaker 4>we're done in the middle of the night, very quietly.

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<v Speaker 4>Some just disappeared and their bones were found years and

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<v Speaker 4>years later. That's how the murders were done. The hits

0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.120
<v Speaker 4>were done then hardly ever, in public we've seen. You know,

0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.160
<v Speaker 4>there was a guy called Wally arm Met who was

0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:01.040
<v Speaker 4>shot sitting having coffee at a rooftop of Bankstown. A

0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.320
<v Speaker 4>guy went up and they opened fire there and an

0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.800
<v Speaker 4>austraight bullok when we hit the lady at a coffee

0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.720
<v Speaker 4>table next to him. In the old daiies, they didn't

0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.080
<v Speaker 4>really do that many public shootings, and now they're just

0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.160
<v Speaker 4>they're shooting broad daylight with Stemi automatic weapons. That's what's

0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:16.120
<v Speaker 4>the scary thing.

0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.720
<v Speaker 2>Mark last question from me. You've been around the traps

0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot, very clearly, you've got a lot of strong

0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.000
<v Speaker 2>contacts in this kind of other side to Sydney than

0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot of us. See, are you worried about your

0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 2>own personal safety when reporting this kind of thing?

0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, a little bit now Again never used to be

0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.680
<v Speaker 4>because in the old days pure newspapers were a little

0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.040
<v Speaker 4>bit more anonymous with social media very visible. Also, I

0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:40.960
<v Speaker 4>mean I've had guys come rom you lock in a

0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.480
<v Speaker 4>pub because they're very unhappy about what I've written. So

0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.199
<v Speaker 4>it's a little bit scared. And again they don't seem

0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.160
<v Speaker 4>to have the rules that they used to have. You know,

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.400
<v Speaker 4>we've seen women shot dead. A woman called the metafol power.

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.280
<v Speaker 4>She was shot dead. In the old days, again, women

0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.120
<v Speaker 4>weren't shot. They'd never put people's lives in danger in

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.640
<v Speaker 4>the public becauzen're as bad for business. You're in A

0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.839
<v Speaker 4>journalist used to be bad for business, and I have

0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.560
<v Speaker 4>to do it. But yeah, it is a bit of

0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.240
<v Speaker 4>a worry, But I'm thinking that they've got more important

0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 4>things to do than go and get me. So I'm

0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.800
<v Speaker 4>just reporting what the underworld and the police know already.

0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:18.880
<v Speaker 4>We're just leading the public mailk around it.

0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, Michael, really appreciate your time kind of illuminating this

0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 2>side of the city that we don't talk about that much,

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 2>and we really appreciate it.

0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.199
<v Speaker 4>Not a problem. Thank you for having me on.

0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.439
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for joining us on the Daily Ours today. If

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.120
<v Speaker 3>you liked this episode and you're listening on Spotify as always,

0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.679
<v Speaker 3>we'd love to hear your questions, your comments, you can

0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.880
<v Speaker 3>pop them in the box under the episode description. Sam

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.520
<v Speaker 3>and Zara will be back again tomorrow. Until then, have

0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:45.440
<v Speaker 3>an excellent day.