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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to Outspoken. You're joined as usual by

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Speaker 1: journalists Amy Sophie and Kate Torbert. Coming up on the

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Speaker 1: episode urgent calls for trolls and the media to face

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Speaker 1: consequences after the tragic death of Love Island host Caroline Flack,

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Speaker 1: the social media split we didn't see coming, and should

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Speaker 1: the AFL be rebranded AFLM. And this episode does touch

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Speaker 1: on mental health and suicide. So if you do need help,

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Speaker 1: please reach out to Lifeline. On thirteen eleven fourteen, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Now, guys, we spoke

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Speaker 1: a lot about Valentine's Day last week and I did

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Speaker 1: see a lot of social media action from you. Sophie,

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Speaker 1: You've got to fill in the listeners as to what

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Speaker 1: Brandon got you now'd be fair. I only put up

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Speaker 1: one post this year because I did reflect on my

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Speaker 1: own behavior and feel a little bit awkward after our chat.

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Speaker 1: So I end up through one post up this year.

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Speaker 1: And what did he get? I really wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: able to guess it was got It sounds so sappy.

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Speaker 1: It was a photograph of the night sky on the

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Speaker 1: day we met that he found on some random Facebook

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Speaker 1: page ad and he had a little caption under it,

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Speaker 1: which was pretty cute. Do you know what's crazy. I

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Speaker 1: haven't actually told you this, Sophie, but I was told

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Speaker 1: by Kate what Brandon had got you, because Brandon always

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Speaker 1: texts in with Kate and it was so funny. I

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Speaker 1: told Dale what he'd got you, and I was standing

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Speaker 1: right near the Google Home and then suddenly I kept

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Speaker 1: seeing this particular gift advertised on my Facebook and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh, just Google Home listening. It's

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Speaker 1: all over my Facebook now because I got sent to

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Speaker 1: link it, and I'm going to tell you the gift

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Speaker 1: could have been very, very bad because the options he

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Speaker 1: sent through I was taken aback. Yeah, apparently you said

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Speaker 1: he was going to get me a tansy or something. No,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like a blanket snuggy type situation

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Speaker 1: with foxes on it. It was very Sarah's Day esque pajamas,

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Speaker 1: but they went pajamas. It was apparently so you could

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Speaker 1: wear it after your tan but I don't think he

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Speaker 1: gets that you probably wouldn't wear a big blanket dress

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Speaker 1: thing after tanning. To be honest, I suppose it shows

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Speaker 1: that he listens to me. I do complain after doing

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Speaker 1: my tan quite a lot. So is it a selfish

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Speaker 1: gift so his sheets don't get ruined? Maybe what about you, Kate,

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Speaker 1: you seem to get rather spoiled. Yes, I was very lucky.

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Speaker 1: I was that annoying person at work that got flowers

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Speaker 1: delivered to them. And I was so embarrassed because I've

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Speaker 1: always hated people that got Valentine's flowers at work, probably

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Speaker 1: because I never got them myself. And they arrived in

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Speaker 1: this massive, long box and I was like, what is it?

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Speaker 1: There were like six long stemmed roses, so I felt

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Speaker 1: very pretentious. But whether they were beautiful was your face? Like?

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Speaker 1: On our Instagram, people have seen Shawnice from Love Island

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Speaker 1: a little meme we put up on Valentine's Day That's

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Speaker 1: gonna That was inspired by Kate's delivery of roses. So

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Speaker 1: for those who haven't seen it, Shawnese has a very

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Speaker 1: smug look on her face and it says something along

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Speaker 1: the lines of when you tell him not to send

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Speaker 1: you anything, and he delivers roses to the office. I

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Speaker 1: did forward that meme onto Reese and we did have

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Speaker 1: a laugh about it. He also cooked you up recourse

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Speaker 1: meal as well. Well. It was only two courses. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I was very lucky. I came home and I felt

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Speaker 1: like I felt bad because he was cooking this amazing meal.

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Speaker 1: And then I also got a Pandora a bracelet, so

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Speaker 1: shout out to his sister in law, pit Pitt works

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Speaker 1: at Pandora and gets a very nice discount. I feel

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Speaker 1: like people are going to just be listening to this

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Speaker 1: and at absolutely hating on us with this section vomiting

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Speaker 1: in there. Well, Amy, your Valentine's Day was a little

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Speaker 1: bit different. You had an adventurous type of date, didn't you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So on Sunday, Dale decided to take me out to

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Speaker 1: the tree climb. If you're in Adelaide, you'll know all

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Speaker 1: about it. And oh my gosh, I felt so mean

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Speaker 1: because he told me it was a surprise. It was

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Speaker 1: going to be a surprise. We were doing something on

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Speaker 1: Sunday and I nearly burst into tears when he told

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Speaker 1: me what it was because I'm petrified of heights. And

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Speaker 1: I quickly had a look on the instagram of the

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Speaker 1: Adelaide tree Climb and everything was so high up. Well,

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Speaker 1: so if you would think so with tree, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know those I don't know. It's pretty much an obstacle

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Speaker 1: course in the skies and in the sky, in the tree,

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Speaker 1: the trees in the tree. I mean, I was actually

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Speaker 1: like humble brag here. I was so proud of myself

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Speaker 1: because I managed to do three of the five courses

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Speaker 1: and it included ziplining and balancing and all of that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And it was so funny because once

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Speaker 1: you get on the course, you can't get off basically,

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Speaker 1: and so when it got to the end of the

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Speaker 1: first course, you had to zipline down and I just

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Speaker 1: looked over the edge and I was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I can do this day. I really don't. And

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Speaker 1: there was some little girl that was behind me and

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Speaker 1: Dale and her dad was there waiting to see her

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Speaker 1: zipline off, and I was like, how embarrassing. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to call the people and it's gonna be this

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Speaker 1: big hooplar to get me off. Anyway, the dad was like,

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Speaker 1: don't be scared, it will be really fun. Just jump.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, fuck this, I'm just gonna jump

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Speaker 1: get out of it. Kind of reminds me of one

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Speaker 1: of those Dale will be watching too much Bachelor where

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Speaker 1: they take him on dates to get them out of

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Speaker 1: their comfort zones. I did say that to him. I said,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we're on a bachelor date because they

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Speaker 1: purposely do something scary so then they can show visual

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Speaker 1: of them and they're like taking their relationship to new heights.

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Speaker 1: One thing I did notice is Valentine's Day as soon

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Speaker 1: as I woke up, was everyone seemed to be resharing

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Speaker 1: old photos of themselves and writing their partners and writing

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Speaker 1: gushy messages like I haven't seen that before. No, it

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Speaker 1: was quite reminiscent of mothers and Father's Day. Actually I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It seemed to be like a catalog of

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Speaker 1: who could brag the most, that have been together the longest,

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Speaker 1: Like I saw Chloe zeppad you know, I think they've

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Speaker 1: been together what for four years? And then I saw

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Speaker 1: Steph Claire Smith had heaps of throwbacks. I actually really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed looking at that. I loved it. I was half

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Speaker 1: tended to put one up, but I knew the scrutiny

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Speaker 1: I'd faced from you two if I did. I had to.

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Speaker 1: I felt disgusting putting a post up on Valentine's Day

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Speaker 1: and night. I mulled over it a lot, and then

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Speaker 1: I was like, stuff it and putting it up. You

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Speaker 1: actually got me to take the photo because you said

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Speaker 1: that my Instagram photos were I did challenge Sophie to

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Speaker 1: get the photo, but then I ended up using my own.

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Speaker 1: Caroline Flack was one of the most in demand and

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Speaker 1: well loved personalities on British TV. With her bubbly personality

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Speaker 1: and infectious laugh. She won audiences over hosting Love Island

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Speaker 1: for the past four years, one Strictly Come Dancing, and

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Speaker 1: presented shows like The X Factor. Her profile made her

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Speaker 1: a fixture in the tabloids, and her rumored relationships with

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Speaker 1: stars like Harry Styles and even Prince Harry put her

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Speaker 1: on the front pages, but her career hung in the

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Speaker 1: balance after she was arrested on suspicion of assaulting her

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Speaker 1: boyfriend in December. Since then, the paparazzi has pursued her,

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Speaker 1: the tabloids have crucified her, and she has been mercifully

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Speaker 1: trolled online. Tragically, over the weekend, Caroline saw no way

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Speaker 1: out and took her own life. The family of labeled

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Speaker 1: her death as manslaughter by the media. Amy, just how

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Speaker 1: hard does this story hit you this week? Well, I

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Speaker 1: was in shock when I saw the news on Facebook. Yesterday,

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Speaker 1: I was so upset. And the thing is, I had

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Speaker 1: to explain this to Dale. I was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know this person, but I feel like I do,

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Speaker 1: and it really hit me hard yesterday. I think I

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Speaker 1: was angry as well that this had happened, that it

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Speaker 1: had gotten to a point where that was her only

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Speaker 1: way out. And you know, for me, I've actually had

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Speaker 1: lost a very close friend of mine last year to suicide,

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Speaker 1: and to see it happen again obviously not this. I

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Speaker 1: don't know Caroline Flack, but I'm just sick of seeing

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Speaker 1: this happen over and over again. It did upset me because,

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Speaker 1: as we mentioned in the introduction there, you know, Caroline

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Speaker 1: was flacing probably the hardest moment of her life. She

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Speaker 1: was accused of a crime that she denied doing. The

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Speaker 1: victim also denied that she had assaulted him. Of course,

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Speaker 1: that was her boyfriend, and I just felt so sorry

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Speaker 1: for I couldn't stop thinking about it yesterday, thinking this

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Speaker 1: poor woman. She lost her job, you know, she had

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Speaker 1: her Love Island hosting gigs strip from her, and then

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Speaker 1: she's lost her boyfriend as well. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: safe to say that we've all been aware of how

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Speaker 1: vicious the British tabloids can be. I mean, there seemed

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of misreporting and missing information about

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Speaker 1: this alleged assault case against her. Well, we spoke about

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Speaker 1: the case on the podcast if you go back a

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Speaker 1: couple of episodes, and to me, it did really seem

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Speaker 1: like this case was so big due to political correctness

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Speaker 1: kind of gone mad in my opinion, because I think

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Speaker 1: it was made a bigger case because she was a woman,

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Speaker 1: and it was the debate, well, you know, the media

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Speaker 1: should treat her the same way as they would treat

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Speaker 1: a man. For example, you see Chris Brown, it was

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Speaker 1: you know, publicized sort of what an awful person he

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Speaker 1: was for beating Rihanna, And there was this debate, well

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Speaker 1: we should treat Caroline Flack the same way, and I

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Speaker 1: think things just went too far. Yeah, it was really

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Speaker 1: the case of making an example of her, oh definitely.

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Speaker 1: And it has been a lot of a lot more

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Speaker 1: information come out since we did the podcast. There were

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Speaker 1: accusations that Caroline hit her boyfriend with a lamp while

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Speaker 1: he slept, and there were the Sun posted and sorry

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Speaker 1: published an image of blood covering sheets and the inference

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Speaker 1: was that that was caused by the lamp. Caroline denied

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Speaker 1: that she attacked her boyfriend with a lamp. He denied it.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're at a situation where there's been no trial,

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Speaker 1: nothing's been proven yet the media and trolls have just

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Speaker 1: gone to town on all of this misinformation. What I

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Speaker 1: found really appalling is the fact that the Sun felt

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Speaker 1: it necessary on Valentine's Day, a day where I'm sure

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Speaker 1: a lot of women feel vulnerable, especially Caroline Flack, who

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Speaker 1: was without her boyfriend and all this shit going on,

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Speaker 1: that they felt it necessary to publish an artist's card

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Speaker 1: that said I'll fucking lamp you with a picture of

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Speaker 1: a cartoon picture of her on it. I mean, can

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Speaker 1: you just imagine feeling so low and seeing that shit online. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And sadly, many of her friends have now come out

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Speaker 1: and said that they feel the media coverage really has

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Speaker 1: contributed to her death. And Laura Whitmore, who stood in

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Speaker 1: for Caroline Flak on Love Island the Winter Edition, She's

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Speaker 1: spoken a radio show and she said to the press,

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Speaker 1: the newspapers who create clickbait, who demonize and tear down success,

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Speaker 1: We've had enough. I've seen journalists and Twitter warriors talk

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Speaker 1: of this tragedy, and they themselves twisted what the truth is?

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Speaker 1: Your words affect people to paparazzi and tabloids looking for

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Speaker 1: a cheap cell, to trolls hiding behind a keyboard. Enough,

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Speaker 1: do you know what pisses me off? Though? And I'm

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Speaker 1: not this is not aimed at anyone in particular, certainly

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Speaker 1: not Laura a bit more. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: support that's come out for Caroline Flack now, But where

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Speaker 1: were those people when she was being accused of assaulting

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend and absolutely copying it online. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if they were there for her, And that's a sad thing.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the time when issues like this do happen,

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Speaker 1: people disappear into the shadows and you don't hear from them.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a bit of cowardly behavior that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've all experienced in our lifetime. But

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Speaker 1: to be just to be fair, I feel like if

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of Love Island stars or your

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Speaker 1: celebrities coming out and supporting her, they too would be

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Speaker 1: opening themselves up to trolling. Yeah, but at some point

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Speaker 1: I feel like, if that's your friend, you need to

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Speaker 1: make a public stand because if you're liked by other people,

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Speaker 1: so say you're on a different program people love you,

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Speaker 1: that other people are going to follow suits. So we've

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Speaker 1: seen Caroline flat being demonized in the media and what's

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Speaker 1: that done. It's made people start to troll her because

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Speaker 1: people just emulate what they see in the media. If

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Speaker 1: the media say something's bad, people go, oh, she's fucking bad.

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Speaker 1: Let's fuck control her. And you know what if people

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Speaker 1: make a stance and say no, I think people are

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to wait for the facts to

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Speaker 1: come out, and people make a stance, people could have

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Speaker 1: backed off. Oh I totally agree people should have stood

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Speaker 1: up for her. But I'm just trying to put it

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Speaker 1: into perspective that unfortunately, when things like this happen, people

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Speaker 1: don't want to open themselves up and weigh into a

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Speaker 1: criminal case and also put the spotlight on them to

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Speaker 1: be trolled as well. I'm not saying it's right. Well,

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Speaker 1: someone who does look like they've been through her side

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Speaker 1: through this whole ordeal is English actress Sephanie Davies and

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Speaker 1: she has posted a very heartfelt but also passionate post

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Speaker 1: on her Instagram page. Sorry it was a video, and

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Speaker 1: she has called Caroline's death manslaughter by media, and she

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Speaker 1: says the media have blood on their hands. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you guys have seen this video. It was

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Speaker 1: a nine minute clip and it was really difficult to

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Speaker 1: watch because Stephanie had been through some issues with the

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Speaker 1: press herself, and you could just tell how isolated and

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Speaker 1: that she too came close to taking her own life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she said that six months earlier she had attempted it herself.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, she had a petition which I've signed,

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Speaker 1: which is rallying for people to protest against the media's

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Speaker 1: reporting and harassment of celebrities. And we're going to link

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Speaker 1: that in the show description in case anyone else would

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Speaker 1: like to sign it, and the things that they are

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Speaker 1: asking for in this petition basic human rights. It was that,

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Speaker 1: you know, no journalists should release information when there's no evidence.

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Speaker 1: They shouldn't be allowed to print source quotes from anyone

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Speaker 1: that is an unreliable source, Like I'm so sick of

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Speaker 1: these magazines. But do you know what, even going back

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Speaker 1: when I was a reporter, I remember being told that,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you find something out and you can't

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Speaker 1: attribute it to somebody, just say sources. Told us that

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Speaker 1: this happened. So that's what media relying on. They you know,

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Speaker 1: they might find out a bit of information they think

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Speaker 1: scandalous and they can attribute it just to a source

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Speaker 1: without even saying who the source is. I think what's

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Speaker 1: most devastating about the loss of Caroline Flak is that

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Speaker 1: she is the third Love Island star to die from suicide.

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Speaker 1: Obviously we had the tragic deaths of Sophie and Mike,

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Speaker 1: who were you know, a thought to have committed suicide

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Speaker 1: after receiving extreme trolling after being on the show. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if many people remember that. In Australia

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Speaker 1: back in twenty fourteen, Next Top Model host and former

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Speaker 1: model Charlotte Dawson died from suicide after receiving awful trolling online,

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Speaker 1: and she had actually attempted suicide two years earlier. She

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Speaker 1: famously came out and actually confronted a troll after they

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Speaker 1: told her to go hang herself, and she found where

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Speaker 1: they worked and actually called them and then also dubbed

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Speaker 1: them into her boss. Now, after she did that and

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Speaker 1: came out and publicly made that story aware, she then

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Speaker 1: received more trolling and a hashtag hashtag die Charlotte started

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Speaker 1: circulating now. Her friends also tried to start a hashtag

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Speaker 1: similar to the Caroline Law, which was Charlotte's Law, and

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Speaker 1: it was to bring in laws around trolling in Australia,

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Speaker 1: and sadly, in twenty twenty six years on, we still

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Speaker 1: don't have specific laws to stop trolling. And the most

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Speaker 1: worrying thing is that it doesn't look like we will

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Speaker 1: be heading in that direction. A lot of the media

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Speaker 1: already pointing their fingers and trying to take away the blame.

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Speaker 1: A lot of journalists and tabloids are trying to blame

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Speaker 1: ITV for Caroline's death, and many others are also trying

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Speaker 1: to blame the Crown Prosecution Service. It is interesting though,

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Speaker 1: to look into the fact that the Crown Prosecution knew

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Speaker 1: how vulnerable Caroline was she came out and told police

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Speaker 1: that she was considering committing suicide, yet they still continue

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Speaker 1: to go ahead with what seemed like a very severe punishment,

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Speaker 1: considering the vict had not wanted to press charge. Well,

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Speaker 1: they're calling it a show trial. So Caroline found out

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Speaker 1: just a day before she committed suicide that this show

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Speaker 1: trial was continuing, and to her it didn't seem like

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Speaker 1: something that was within the public interest. I understand that

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Speaker 1: from a media perspective, because Caroline is a person of

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Speaker 1: interest that they you know, that this story to them

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Speaker 1: is within the public interest. But it's a domestic violence

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Speaker 1: case and the alleged victim doesn't want to prosecute. So

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Speaker 1: how did this even get to the point where there

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Speaker 1: was a trial called? What? Just for the bloody newspapers

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Speaker 1: to write their loads of crap and just to get clicks.

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Speaker 1: And I suppose for domestic violence case there are lots

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Speaker 1: of situations where victims don't want to prosecute and they

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Speaker 1: do take it further. But I really don't know all

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Speaker 1: the details around the case, so I wouldn't want to.

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Speaker 1: One human rights barrister last night said that it had

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Speaker 1: been clear that there were mental issues at the heart

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Speaker 1: of the case and she was baffled that the case

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Speaker 1: had been allowed to continue. And she said that Flak

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Speaker 1: was very vulnerable at the start and during the case,

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Speaker 1: and that was very well known and those factors would

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Speaker 1: usually lead to the case being dropped. It is also

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Speaker 1: but there was no and there was no prize either.

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Speaker 1: It was also very sad because Caroline said she was

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Speaker 1: terrified over thoughts that police body footage of her was

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Speaker 1: going to be shown at the domestic violence court case,

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Speaker 1: and the footage is alleged to have shown the couple

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Speaker 1: covered in blood and flack with cuts to her wrists

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Speaker 1: and at the time it seemed like those were cuts

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Speaker 1: caused by a glass, but it's now believed that maybe

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Speaker 1: she was trying to cut her wrists. It also the

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Speaker 1: video also is believed to show her very distressed and

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Speaker 1: in a state of undress. So you could see how

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Speaker 1: hearing that this trial was going to go to air

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Speaker 1: so I go to court and knowing that this information

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Speaker 1: was surely to be leaked to the media would just

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Speaker 1: be so distressing and soul destroying for her. I find

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Speaker 1: that really interesting. That really changes my opinion because I

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Speaker 1: know media, particularly in South Australia who I deal with

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Speaker 1: media on a daily basis, and I know that mental

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Speaker 1: health that is quite a difference in reporting on it,

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Speaker 1: and there is a lot of normally a lot of

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Speaker 1: respect that goes on if someone knows as an Adelaide

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Speaker 1: Adelaide identity that's had mental health issues so that they

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Speaker 1: avoid reporting on it. So that makes me think, did

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Speaker 1: the media know that this might have been an actual

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Speaker 1: mental health potential suicide. I think they gave a fus

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Speaker 1: and that they've tried to then spin it that, you know, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the room was full of blood because she had beaten

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Speaker 1: up her boyfriend. The thing that is absolutely disgusting is

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Speaker 1: Caroline had spoken publicly about her struggles with depression for

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Speaker 1: many years. She did take to Instagram which is a

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Speaker 1: very famous quote now that a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: resharing is in a world where we can be anything,

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Speaker 1: be kind And I really hope that's something that people

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Speaker 1: take away from this, because, you know, it really makes

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Speaker 1: me think. Something else she shared online was on a

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Speaker 1: week after Mental Health Awareness Week. She shared this post

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was it gives a real insight

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Speaker 1: into the way she was feeling. This was in October

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, so just a few months before. She wrote,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to write something about Mental Health Day last week,

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Speaker 1: but I was knee deep in work and some days

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Speaker 1: it's hard to write your feelings if you're not in

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Speaker 1: the right place. The last weeks, I've been in a

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Speaker 1: really weird place. I find it hard to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's anxiety and pressure of life, and when

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Speaker 1: I actually reach out to someone, they said I was draining.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is why some people keep their

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Speaker 1: emotions to themselves. I certainly hate talking about my feelings,

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Speaker 1: and being a burden is my biggest fear. I'm lucky

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Speaker 1: to be able to pick myself up when things feel shit,

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Speaker 1: But what happens if someone can't be nice people? You

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Speaker 1: never know what's going on. Ever, That is really powerful

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Speaker 1: and it really hits home because, as I touched on,

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Speaker 1: I had a friend that we lost to suicide recently,

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Speaker 1: and you just don't know what's going on in people's lives.

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Speaker 1: This My friend was the most outgoing, funny, caring person

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Speaker 1: and it was the last thing that I ever thought.

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Speaker 1: So let's just all take what Caroline said and be

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Speaker 1: nice to each other. And it doesn't only affect that person,

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Speaker 1: it affects everyone who's life that person touched exactly. The

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Speaker 1: thing is, do you think I think if Caroline had

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Speaker 1: put out something on Instagram saying, Hi, I just want

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Speaker 1: to be honest, I'm really struggling. Can you please leave

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Speaker 1: me and my family alone. I'm going through having mental

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Speaker 1: health issues. Do you I'll answer it myself, but and

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Speaker 1: you guys, n's after do you actually think the media

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Speaker 1: would have stopped, because I don't think they would have.

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Speaker 1: I think people would have gone, oh, she's being so

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Speaker 1: attention see she probably would have got more comments of

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Speaker 1: people saying to go kill yourself sadly, and isn't it

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Speaker 1: so sad? It has to be that the person actually

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Speaker 1: commits suicide for people to go, oh, fuck, we've gone

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Speaker 1: too far. And Kate did touch on before tragically that

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Speaker 1: two of the contestants, Mike and Sophie, have tragically taken

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Speaker 1: their own lives in the past two years. So it

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Speaker 1: will be very intriguing to see how Love Island, which

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Speaker 1: is currently airing its winter edition, will respond. They did

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Speaker 1: cancel it Saturday night episode, but many a feeling that

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Speaker 1: ITV and Love Ireland turned their back on Caroline Flack

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Speaker 1: when she needed them the most well. Sunday Night show

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Speaker 1: has also been canceled, with reports that they will air

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Speaker 1: a Monday show with a tribute to Caroline on there.

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Speaker 1: From my perspective, I feel like pointing the finger ITV

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Speaker 1: is a little bit convenient for the media. I feel

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Speaker 1: like they're just going on a witch hunt to move

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Speaker 1: the attention away from themselves. I understand that since the

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Speaker 1: deaths of Mike and Sophie. There has been an increase

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Speaker 1: in the after show care that Love Ireland do give contestants.

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Speaker 1: So I just don't know. I don't think ITV is

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Speaker 1: to blame, but again it's a very complex issue. To

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Speaker 1: be fair to ITV. What were they supposed to do.

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Speaker 1: She had court appearances at the same time she was

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Speaker 1: meant to be filming. There was no way she could

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Speaker 1: have been filming in South Africa. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: just the filming part. I think it's the fact that

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Speaker 1: maybe she felt like they disconnected themselves from trying to

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Speaker 1: separate themselves from her branding and her image. From all accounts,

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Speaker 1: they were wanting Caroline back for the summer edition. Reports

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Speaker 1: I read said that if she was cleared of the charges,

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Speaker 1: they'd happily have her back. I think the whole issue

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Speaker 1: here is that there's a lot of blame going on,

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Speaker 1: and I think that people think, you know, trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of this tragedy, we try and look for

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Speaker 1: what was the reason, and there are so many different

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Speaker 1: reasons coming up. You know, it was ITV, it was atrolling,

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Speaker 1: it was the media. But I think suicide is such

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Speaker 1: a complex thing that it's really hard to narrow it

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Speaker 1: down to one thing. And I read a really interesting

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Speaker 1: piece by Hannah Yellen, and in order to write the

431
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 1: article about Caroline, she wanted to look into the responsible

432
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: reporting of suicide and basically she did a bit of

433
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 1: research into the responsible reporting of suicide and found it

434
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 1: was really important not to oversimplify the suicide and also

435
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 1: not to make conclusions about events that had happened in

436
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: a person's life as to why that suicide had happened,

437
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: And in doing so it made her think, well, with

438
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: celebrity lives, we really oversimplify those and we really look

439
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: at events that we're aware of and make an assumption

440
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 1: about what that person is based on these very few

441
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: events that we know about, which really made me think

442
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: about the Caroline flag thing. You know, there's lots of

443
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 1: different events that have popped up about, you know, Caroline

444
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: being linked to Harry Styles or this assault charge, and

445
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: it it's really painted the very unfair picture of Caroline,

446
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: and then in doing so, in her death, we're really

447
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: trying to oversimplify the suicide and look at those events

448
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: and blame them when we really don't know what was

449
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,919
Speaker 1: going on behind closed doors for her whole life. It

450
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: really does, though, show how manipulated we are by the media,

451
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: because the media the ones coming out and saying, oh, no,

452
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: we need to blame this person, we need to blame

453
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 1: that person, and we just seem to buy everything they're saying.

454
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: A lot of British tabloids have come out kind of

455
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: blaming the public, saying that we have such a thirst

456
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: to read about her and find out all of these

457
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: sordid details. And it is interesting because it does make

458
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: you think, well, maybe the only way we can make

459
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: this stop is if we do stop clicking on these articles. Obviously,

460
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 1: for this podcast, I've been researching a lot into it,

461
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: and even before we decided to do this as a topic,

462
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: this intrigue set over me and I just wanted to

463
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: find out as much as I could. I don't know

464
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: was that did you guys just google it? Yeah? Well,

465
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: I suppose because the media have built it up into

466
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: this big thing. But it's also tall poppy syndrome. Because

467
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: it's built them up tear them down. And that's exactly

468
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 1: what happened. The media just waited for their moment to

469
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: tear Caroline Flack down. They had an absolute feel day

470
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: over the assault comes. Well, the thing that scares me

471
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: is this isn't the last we've seen of it. This

472
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: is just going to continue to happen over and over

473
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: again until there are laws set in place that hold

474
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: media and trolls responsible. And it's still the government is

475
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 1: still not responding to it. Do you I don't understand.

476
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: I don't understand on Instagram why the word kill yourself

477
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: cannot be blocked from direct messaging and comments? Difficult about it.

478
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 1: Let's take away likes, but let's still allow people to

479
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: tell people go kill themselves because we've heard of a

480
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: lot of celebrities. You do have the ability, obviously to

481
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: take your comments down, and you can block certain words.

482
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: Why is Instagram not doing this? Do you value to

483
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: any of those words have on Instagram? Do you guys

484
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: think people should be prosecuted if they do send death threats?

485
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: I do think so there needs to be responsibility for

486
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: people's words and know that there's actually consequences. Well, I

487
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: think the issue here is the government seemed to really

488
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,719
Speaker 1: look into online bullying as a thing that only affects

489
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: school kids, and it's so much, it's so diverse, like

490
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: it's not just kids that are writing these stupid stuff.

491
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: These are full grown adults writing this shit to people.

492
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: Do you know what I find crazy? Growing up, you

493
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: always think, oh my gosh, it'd be so amazing to

494
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: be famous, and you idolize these people that are in

495
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: the limelight. And as you get older, I mean, I'm

496
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: slowly realizing to be famous would be hell on earth. Well,

497
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: you're exactly right, Amy. There's a talent manager in the

498
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: UK who came out on BBC Radio and said that

499
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: Flak received more negative press than a terrorist or a pedophile.

500
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: We just think these people are invincible, like you do.

501
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: It's like just because they're a celebrity, they suddenly don't

502
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: have feeling. It goes just back to that oversimplifying of celebrities,

503
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: and we believe that the character that they've created, so

504
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: at the moment, everyone just thought she was some monster

505
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: that's assaulted her boyfriend. That to the calls to ban

506
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: Love Island. At first, I actually thought it was so ridiculous.

507
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it is one of my favorite shows, so

508
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: from that perspective, I wouldn't want it to be canceled.

509
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: But when I looked into it further, obviously we've referenced

510
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: the suicides of two of the cast members. It did

511
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: make me think, well, do they have some responsibility there?

512
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: Because when you watch Love Island, everything is so scandalous

513
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: and everything is overproduced, and they make contestants. I said, well,

514
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: they put contestants in these difficult situations. For example, we've

515
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: seen Callum choose another girl over Shana recently. I can

516
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: assure you Callum will be getting death threats to his

517
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: Instagram account. So it made me think, you know, one,

518
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 1: is it Love Ireland's fault? Or two do we need

519
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: to start educating ourselves as viewers that this is all

520
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: not as real as we think it is. These people

521
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: are put in these situations and we need to lay

522
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: off them. Well, that's exactly right, Amy. I do think

523
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: it comes down to education, and that was a part

524
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: of what the government when they're talking about implementing laws

525
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: around trolls, that they felt like it comes from education first,

526
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: and how can we just slap laws on people and

527
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, put people in jail for doing stuff if

528
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: it's not educated, Sorry, if it's not taught first. But

529
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: to me, it's like, do we really need to teach

530
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: people how to be nice? People? Like? How do people

531
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: know fundamentally that it is wrong to tell someone to

532
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: kill themselves. In all honesty, the people that are telling

533
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: others to go kill themselves, they're probably the most miserable people.

534
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: They're spitting venom at others because they're unhappy with their

535
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: own life. Let's be honest, though, you know, we can

536
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: blame and demonize this one television show, but there are

537
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: going to be TV shows after Love Island that do

538
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing that propel these nobodies into stardom.

539
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: And it's not so much about the show. It's about

540
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: how we manage the people that turn into stars afterwards.

541
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: But it's also about how we deal with them. I mean,

542
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: Big Brother did the same thing in Australia, you know,

543
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: back when we were twelve, so eighteen nineteen years ago,

544
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: but we didn't have we didn't have contestants committing suicide.

545
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: So there really is a link between social media and

546
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: the fact that people can jump online and say whatever

547
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: they want with no responsibility. We need to make these

548
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: people responsible for what they say, because none of them,

549
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: I bet you would ever say it to the person's face.

550
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they're probably the ones that are all posting

551
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: tributes online now but can I just say, you know,

552
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: there's been recent court cases of people who have catfished

553
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: on Tinder and they've led to people taking their own lives,

554
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: and those people can be prosecuted. It's the same thing,

555
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, with the technology we have,

556
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: we can trace people's IP address even if they come

557
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: up with fake names. These people should come under fire.

558
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: So the only law that applies to trolls isn't actually

559
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't use the word trolling or social media, but

560
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: it's basically if you harass or have a menacing or

561
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: offensive behavior towards someone on a carriage or service so

562
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: a phone, then you can be under prosecution. But the

563
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: maximum penalty for this act is three years imprisonment found guilty,

564
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: So not only to have to prove that the person's guilty,

565
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: but then they can only get three years in jail.

566
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: Pausing someone to commit it, it's one of those ones

567
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: it would be so hard to prosecute, I think as well,

568
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: because they'd say, oh, it wasn't just that person's actions,

569
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: it was this. Yeah. Well, as you said, there are

570
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: so many variables, and suicide is such a complex case

571
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: that it just makes it impossible for these people to

572
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: be prosecuted under the current law. And just to end

573
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: this segment, last night I read so much about Caroline

574
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: Flack and at this post really stood out to me

575
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: that I saw on Facebook, and it says Caroline Flack

576
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: asked for kindness. She got none when she was alive,

577
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: but she has it all now she's died. Beautiful, talented, rich, famous,

578
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: only forty years old, Caroline Flack had it all going

579
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: for her, and yet last night she took her own life.

580
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: If you watched comedy programs at the turn of the century,

581
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: Kids TV, a few years later, The X Factor, Strictly

582
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: Come Dancing or Love Island more recently then, Caroline Flack

583
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: was someone who graced your life, always smiling, always confident,

584
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: always outgoing. And yet last night the news came through

585
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: that she had died, all alone in her London flat,

586
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: watched by millions of people every week, yet no one

587
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: there for her when she decided to take her own

588
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: life one month before she was due to face trial

589
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: for assaulting her boyfriend. Today you will see hundreds of headlines,

590
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: thousands of minutes of television interviews, and millions of social

591
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: media posts dedicated to Caroline Flack Yet twenty four hours ago,

592
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: what was there David Williams making jokes at her expense

593
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: during the National Television Awards, newspaper headlines describing her as

594
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: dead behind the eyes, memes that damned and humiliated her

595
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: before she had even gone on trial. There was no empathy,

596
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: sympathy or support when she was alive. Even her famous

597
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: friends kept quiet in their public support of her. But

598
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: in death it has all come forth in the hope

599
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: that a quick tweet or hastily written headline will make

600
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: all the prior criticism and cruelty be forgotten about Caroline

601
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: Flack took her own life, not knowing any of this

602
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: support was there for her. Yet now as their body

603
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 1: lies on a slub in a London morgue, it has

604
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: all come spilling out. The same newspapers that reveled in

605
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: her fall from grace yesterday morning went to print last

606
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: night with headlines of fake sorrow and feign sympathy. Tomorrow

607
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: they will be onto a new victim and seeking their

608
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: celebrity scalp. The online trolls will follow eagerly, hoping that

609
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: someone famous will make a mistake so they can try

610
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: and detract from the hollow emptiness of their own lives

611
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: by projecting the bitterness and hatred they feel of themselves

612
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: onto others, and the cycle will start all over again.

613
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: Build up stars just to knock them down, follow people

614
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: on social media just to criticize them. The newspapers will

615
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: say that their reporting is in the public interest, and

616
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: the trolls will say they are just exercising their right

617
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: to free speech. But is anyone's life really richer for

618
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: it either? Was your day made better by hearing about

619
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: how Caroline Flack presented in court? Did it enrich your

620
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: life to read a tweet from a troll about Megan Markle?

621
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: Is it really important to know who Taylor Swift was

622
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: sleeping with last night? I don't think anyone needs to

623
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: know those things. We are told we need to and

624
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: served it up by hateful media, but it doesn't make

625
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: our lives any better. At best, we feel jealous that

626
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: our lives seem meaningless in comparison to the stars. In

627
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: one of her last Instagram posts, Caroline Flak called out

628
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: for kindness. She wrote, in a world where you can

629
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: be anything, be kind. Caroline Flak asked for kindness. She

630
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: got none when she was alive, but has it all

631
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: now she's died. If we are to take anything from

632
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: this tragedy, let it be a lesson from Caroline FLA's

633
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: call for kindness. Let it be a change in our

634
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: attitude towards our fellow human beings, be they celebrities or not.

635
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: Let it be a refusal to accept the hatred, bitterness,

636
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: and buy or served up by our tabloids and trolls.

637
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: So on a lie her note, Let's get into the

638
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: pit and peak of our social media week, Sophie, can

639
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: you start us off please? I'll start off with the peak.

640
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: For me. It has to be YouTuber Sarah's Day's new

641
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: house tour. I've been waiting out a long time for this.

642
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: Back in December, she said she was going to drop

643
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: her new renovation series. I've been waiting a couple of months,

644
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: been having a fill in the time watching Sky Wheatley's

645
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: renovation Serieses says he's don't even compare the job that's right,

646
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: And I mean I feel like I wasn't alone because

647
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: there it was just flooded with comments of how excited

648
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: they were to see her new house. Wasn't the house amazing?

649
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: I know it's a renovation show. But I could easily

650
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: live in that house as it was. It wasn't like

651
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: your typical renovation with the house as a shithole beforehand. Well,

652
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: I was so surprised because the way she spoke about

653
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: the house previously was sort of like, oh, we can't

654
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: live in it because he needs to be renovated. And

655
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: when they did the pre renovation tour, I was like,

656
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: bloody hell, it's so modern. Yeah, it's an absolutely incredible house.

657
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: I'd say it was worth about two point five million dollars. Well,

658
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: it's a five bedroom house in Sydney, so it would

659
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: have to be that much. It's a straight away from

660
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: the beach at Cronulla. I'm really happy for her because

661
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: she's worked incredibly hard. Both her and Kurt. They're both

662
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: really great business people and it was nice to see

663
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: that payoff with them. And obviously they've got a you know,

664
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: a son, and you know they're just going to start

665
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: beautiful memories in that household together. I can't wait to

666
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: see what the house is going to look like because

667
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: their apartment is beautiful and I'm assuming it's going to

668
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: be a similar sort of theme because to be fair,

669
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: like we're saying it the house is livable. It's obviously

670
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: it's quite nice, but it's not their vibe at all. Well,

671
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: I mean, and for YouTubers really it is the set.

672
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: It is a set for them. Yeah, I want to

673
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: be tuning in and seeing Sarah's day's incredible, like incredible house. Yeah, exactly.

674
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: What about the pit of the week, Well, I know

675
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: I have been dubbed as a bit of a sadder

676
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: on this podcast for noticing who is following who on Instagram,

677
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: and I made a revelation over the weekend that Jonathan Sour,

678
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: who is Shiny Grumman's ex boyfriend, friend of the show,

679
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: friend of the show, if you haven't listened to that

680
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: episode and go and check it out, he was our

681
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: first under the influencer guests. Someone popped that in the

682
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: show notes that's right, So he and his current girlfriend,

683
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: Madison Wooley, who was also a YouTuber, they were no

684
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: longer following each other. Now I'm going to say I'm

685
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: a bit annoyed that your take credit for this because

686
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm the one that noticed. Oh I'm I thought it

687
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: was me. Well, the suspicions were raised, wasn't it when

688
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: there were no posts on Valentine I pieced it all

689
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: together because I was like, hang on, why is she

690
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: with her friend all the time suddenly, and why is

691
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: he not? They both posted separate Valentine's Day posts, and

692
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: then I was like, neither of them have liked each

693
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: other's posts. So then, being sad having nothing better to

694
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: do on Valentine's Day night, clearly, I then went into

695
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: their followers and they both have unfollowed each other. I

696
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: did say to Brandon on Valentine's Day, I said, love

697
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: is dead if these two aren't making them. I was

698
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: genuinely disappointed because I like their content together, say, I

699
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: enjoy it so much. It's it's lame and it's funny

700
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: to laugh at, but I watch it. I'll watch them.

701
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: And so they are following each other again. There was

702
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: a post on Sunday night, so the little spat mustn't

703
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: have lasted too long. And I feel like they do

704
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: really suit each other because they both just seem to

705
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: just like doing similar things. They say. Anyways, I know

706
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: for the couples on Instagram, I feel like that that's

707
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: when people gain their most popularity is when they can

708
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: do the couple active. I love watching watching it myself,

709
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: so the pit kind of turned into the peak because

710
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: they're back together. That's right. Thank goodness. I still need

711
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: to watch his ten thousand calorie challenge, even though it's

712
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: about two years late, I still want to watch it.

713
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: So with AFLW returning to our screens this week, the

714
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: equality debate has raged whether the AFL should be rebranded

715
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: AFL M. Sophie, what do you think? Be honest? To

716
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: be honest, no, I think it is an absolute ludicrous

717
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: suggestion that the AFL, which has been around for one

718
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: hundred years, should be renamed AFLM. Look, I'm going to

719
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: get you on that one. I agreed with your opinion

720
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: to begin with before I did some research into it

721
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: today and I have done a complete backflip, and I'm

722
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: going to challenge you. It's only been called the AFL

723
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: for thirty years since nineteen ninety when Queensland. Yes, I

724
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: know it was the VFL but it wasn't the VFLM. Yes,

725
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: but how come we can change it to incorporate other states?

726
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: So we can change the name to incorporate those two

727
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: other states. Because the women's is a different league, it's

728
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: a different league, can I add in? And it's not

729
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: I actually agree with Sophie. I heard this and I

730
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: thought that is just my initial gut feeling was this

731
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: is ridiculous. It's political correctness gone absolutely, this is political

732
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: correctness gone mad. Because the AFL have different sort of

733
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: sub sections, so there was what is it the AFL X,

734
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: then you've got you know, the AFL, which is the

735
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: main AFL, and then you've got the Women's AFL. Because

736
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: the Women's AFL is only played I think it's like

737
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: eight games in the season, and I think I understand

738
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: at the moment that the women are playing the same

739
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: game as the men, but that's also an issue. I

740
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: think that the game needs to be slightly modified for

741
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: the female body. We have to admit that this is

742
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 1: a very low scoring game at the moment for some

743
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: of the women's teams. Now we need, in my opinion,

744
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: I think the oval needs to be made slightly smaller

745
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: so we can see more goals scoring happening. I also

746
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: think that there needs to be certain rules about tackling.

747
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: I think, just to make it a faster and more

748
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: enjoyable game to watch. It's not I don't know, to me,

749
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: it's not designed specifically the game for a female's body. Well,

750
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: what we're seeing at the moment is, as you mentioned,

751
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: low scoring matches, and the blame has been put on

752
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: the fact they've expanded the competition, so I believe there's

753
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: four new teams. So what's happened is obviously growing up,

754
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: girls haven't traditionally been able to play AFL, so the

755
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: talent pool is quite small in Australia because everyone went

756
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: to different sports. So what they've done is they've opened

757
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: it up and there's more teams, so the talent pool

758
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: has gone down and so we're seeing lower scoring matches.

759
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,479
Speaker 1: I agree, I think we need to make the pitch

760
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: smaller because you know, when we went to high school,

761
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: we played women's AFL. I love football. When I was younger,

762
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to be the first female footballer. But I

763
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: can admit that in order to see the women playing

764
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: really well and to get the high scoring games that

765
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: are going to make people want to go and watch

766
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,479
Speaker 1: the AFLW there needs to be some changes in the rules. Well,

767
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I do think that the game

768
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: needs to be modified, but what the hell does that

769
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: have to do with making it an equal standing of

770
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: the AFL. Now, I'm not saying so we need a

771
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: name to be equal, so I'm not knowing we do actually,

772
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that the games are on equal

773
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: standing because the women's league is by far not at

774
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: the same standard. But how the hell are we meant

775
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: to get to the same standard if we are not

776
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: allowing the women's league to be on the same level.

777
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but this is not actually a gender debate,

778
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: this whole AFLW thing, this is a money debate. The

779
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: AFL doesn't particularly care about the fact that it's women.

780
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: They are trying to dominate all of women's sports. They

781
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: are trying to dominate all of sports. A. No, it's

782
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: not a good thing because the AFL is actually stealing

783
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: players from other codes like netball and basketball, which are

784
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: actually at elite levels, and they're paying them more money,

785
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: so they're ruining the other sports. It's all about money,

786
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: it's not about equality, they hang on. If it's all

787
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: about money, then why are they not charging for tickets

788
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: because because it's an excellent branding exercise for them. Well,

789
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: for someone who's actually worked in women's netball, I can

790
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: see the argument, but I find it hard to be

791
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: against something that is actually I'm not againt the women's sport.

792
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm not against the women's sport, but do you know

793
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: what I am for? I'm for the absolute elitness of

794
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: the netball At the moment, I think that is an

795
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: incredibly underrated sport. Those women are incredible athletes who have

796
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: been training the whole lives for it. I understand that

797
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: women who play football, given that's not what they're are

798
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: dealing the players, That's not what the argument is about.

799
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: Does a name make much of a difference? Can inject

800
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: if we go, if we go to talk to female athletes,

801
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: it does to them? Cant Can I interject for a

802
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: second though, just before Sophie and Kate start punching each other.

803
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: I suppose the thing is as I said, I grew

804
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: up loving AFL, and to be honest, I haven't really

805
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: gotten around the AFL W. I feel like if it

806
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 1: hadn't been celebrated as much as it has been, I

807
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: probably would be a bigger fan of it because I

808
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: so much fakes going on in the media. Can I

809
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: explain I what I don't like is the fake attitude

810
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: of the AFL and the fake attitude of the AFL

811
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: players and those men in the media. Because from somebody

812
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: who's worked in the media, I can tell you that

813
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: those male journalists who were there shouting about the AFL

814
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: W that are there commentating and on the sidelines they

815
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: hate What would you prefer them to be completely against

816
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: it and not? I would prefer they're not to be

817
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: this fakeness because what's happening. I'm sorry, that's what's going

818
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: to happen. But as so, there's going to be. If

819
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: they renamed the AFL the afl M, they are opening

820
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: themselves up. Can I just say it? Can I just

821
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: say I don't think so. From my research, I completely agree.

822
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: I don't think it should be called AFL M. I

823
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: don't think they should have called the Women's League afl W.

824
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: So what what is suggested is that the AFL League

825
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: is the whole banner, and underneath that banner they have

826
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: a men's competition and competition, so they don't know. I'm

827
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: not saying that they have a W and M. I'm

828
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: saying that both leagues are referred to as AFL but

829
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: there's a women's competition and a men's competition. That's exactly

830
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: what's No, it's not it's still branding them. Are then

831
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: AFL men's competition AFL Women's. Well, the whole thing is

832
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: the acronym. The whole thing is that they don't want

833
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: to differentiate between the women's and men's. It's quite obvious

834
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: considering that both of their seasons don't run concurrently, that

835
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: they don't need to really specify because people are quite

836
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: aware of when they're be happy that that women are

837
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: getting the opportunity to play at this high level and

838
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: on this big platform, Like do we really need to

839
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: be putting I feel like it's more detrit How does

840
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: a name have any difference. Isn't it just putting them

841
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: on an equal platform to the men? Isn't that what

842
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: we want? But should it be at an equal platform when

843
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: there is such a disparity between the performance? Disparity is

844
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: because we haven't allowed women to play. Can I just

845
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: get a point in I just sort of look at

846
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: it as if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I

847
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: think we can. We can easily tell it is broken.

848
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 1: Can I say? Is the women's netball called netball W

849
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: and the men's network? Bring that up? Because the cricket

850
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: have actually changed their name to the Australian Men's Cricket

851
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: team and the Australian women's cricket team, So what the

852
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: hell is wrong with doing the same. No one refers

853
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: to the men's cricket team as the men they do,

854
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: and it's men's tennis and females. Getting really confused. People

855
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: still people would still refer to as the men's of

856
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: the women's game. But that's literally what they're saying that

857
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: they want to call it a f l W AFL

858
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: men's I think it's just stupid because what about all

859
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: the overseas branding they're trying to push the AFL over,

860
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: but you're not to say what a suggestion to keep? No,

861
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: you don't get it. The suggestion is to keep to

862
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: keep it AFL, but just call it a men's and

863
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: women's competition under that. But if you're a newspaper journalist,

864
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: you're going to have to call it a f l

865
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: M or a FO you want, yes, you are. I

866
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: think the club is doing enough at the moment. Enough enough.

867
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: My issue, My main issue here is that this perception

868
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: for the media that the level of football played in

869
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: the a f l W is as good as the men.

870
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: I'm sick of this thinking that no one when they're

871
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: pretending though, and it's patronized. If I was playing it,

872
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: I'd rather than be like, okay, you're not quite at

873
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: the standard yet, it's not an elite level. Well there

874
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: was a journalist not There was a journalist in Melbourne

875
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: who cops some criticism because I think it was the

876
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: Herald's son. They printed sort of on the back page

877
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: of the paper an article about the men's AFL trial

878
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: match and then you have to go searching for the

879
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, the ridgie ditch AFLW season one sorry round

880
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: one game, and they were saying, well, this is ridiculous.

881
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: Why do I have to go searching for the AFL

882
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: women's when this is just a trial match? And the

883
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: journalis you said men's before, Yeah, that's a mens match.

884
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: So so what the journalist tweeted back is well, actually

885
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 1: we found that the trial matches are getting more clicks

886
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: than the content about the AFLW. So it's showing that

887
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: while the AFL and the media might be trying to

888
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: build it up somewhat, they're not getting the same click.

889
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: And the main issue that I have with the AFLW

890
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 1: is I think I think it is wonderful that women

891
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: are being celebrated in this way and given the opportunity

892
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: to play a sport that they want to play. I

893
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: have absolutely no issue with this. What I have an

894
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: issue with is the AFL taking dominance over every other sport.

895
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: A lot of sports journalists in Adelaide and I'm sure

896
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: in other states, were told that if you want to

897
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: cover the men's football, you've got to cover the women's football.

898
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: And while it's that they're getting coverage, it is meaning

899
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: that other women's other female sports like cricket, or like

900
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: tennis and netball and volleyball and not being covered because

901
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: of the dominance of the AFL. From a media manager's

902
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: perspective of sporting clubs, then the other male sports are

903
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: just going to get the attention. Can I just add

904
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: in a point? Does anyone else find it odd that

905
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: the only sport which seems to be being celebrated by

906
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: the mass media is a somewhat extremely masculine sport, as in,

907
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: you know, coming to the age where you know, I

908
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: don't even know what I'm gonna have kids, but I

909
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: would be kind of concerned to have my daughter play football,

910
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: even though I loved playing football at a young age.

911
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 1: You go watch the women's league, and it is extremely rough.

912
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: Women have lost their life playing, which is one reason

913
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: why I would like to see the rules slightly modified

914
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: to make it sort of a more alluring sport for

915
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: young people. But it's interesting that the other sports which

916
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: I suppose you would say a bit more feminine, like netball,

917
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: which is a non contact sport, and even tennis, they don't.

918
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: It's not that they're feminine, they're non contact sports. Well

919
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: actually netbule isn't isn't classified as a non contact sport anymore. Really, yes,

920
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: So I don't see. This is where it gets so

921
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: difficult with political correctness. I'm just saying that I suppose

922
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: traditionally netball is a more feminine sport than football. It's

923
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: just interesting to me that the you know, this masculine, this,

924
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: this perceivably masculine sport is given so much attention, and

925
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: as you're saying, the other sports that have been traditionally

926
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: popular for females being given no attention. Well I understand that,

927
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: but I don't really understand how you can't see this

928
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: point of view. So I read an article from Cato

929
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: Hallerin and she's a former Victorian cricketer as well as

930
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: obviously a sports journalist, and she was talking about how

931
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: the AFL actually hold more power by keeping the male

932
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: sport as the default. So she spoke about how there

933
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: is a lot of power to be continuing to hold

934
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: this invisible norm that AFL is a men's sport, and

935
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: it also doesn't allow it makes women. It makes it

936
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: sort of seeing that women are just sort of being noted.

937
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: So to me, it's quite interesting hearing, how you know,

938
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: upset you guys about it, because according to doctor Silverstein,

939
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: who was quoted in the article, she explained that aggestion

940
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: to change it to AFL M is actually seen quite

941
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: threatening to males and then to the status quo, which

942
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: is us that have grown up with football our whole lives.

943
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: It's funny. I totally get where you're coming from in that.

944
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm all for equality. I'm just saying I

945
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: think it's just one of those token efforts that's just

946
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: almost a bit silly because we can already differentiate them.

947
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: I say, is your problem with dropping gender altogether with

948
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: both of the sports? I don't have a problem. I

949
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: just think I don't think you get it. I think

950
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: that you can't just drop it and say, this is

951
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: the men's game, this is the women's that's what they're

952
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: called that, that's what the acronym is. AFL. Men say

953
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: it's not unprecedented in sport. The rugby Union's governing body

954
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,959
Speaker 1: did the same thing in August two thousand. People don't

955
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: actually call it that, It is just I think it

956
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: is political correctness gone that well, I do call it that.

957
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: The Women's and Men's World Cups are simply known as

958
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: the Rugby World Cup, So why can't we call it

959
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: the AFL. I'm sorry, but it is called the AFL

960
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: that people go is called a flor a fl W.

961
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, why are we arguing about a letter?

962
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 1: I know you're saying, Oh, you could say the same.

963
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 1: It's just known as the a f L. The other

964
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: reason is that there's already so much angst and feeling

965
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: and criticism towards the a f l W that I

966
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: think it's just by suggesting a change of names when

967
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: it's AFL is something that's really special to a lot

968
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: of people. To suggest to change in names, it's going

969
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: to open the afl W up to even more criticism

970
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: total fans. Why can't we just yes, but what I'm

971
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: saying is you guys need to unpack it because you

972
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: guys seem to hate it. But to be fair, I

973
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: think that the women in the afl have been treated

974
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: extremely well. These women are being touted as superstars. They

975
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: have thousands of followers and extreme influence. They're on television ads,

976
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: they're advertising serial they're on Survivor. These women are huge.

977
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: More people would probably know an afl W player compared

978
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: to Isn't that fantality? Yeah, I think that. I actually

979
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: think the afl W is amazing and I wish they

980
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: had the afl W when I was growing up. My

981
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 1: concern is just more the tradition of it that that's

982
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: known as afl That's the only issue I have and

983
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: that issue, but I'm interjecting, I feel like we need

984
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: to calm down because if you actually read the papers,

985
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: they're not making the change. This was a report. I

986
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: think that's very disappointing and it's you know, well, you

987
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 1: know what. It's caused us to have a huge argument

988
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: that was just a little what is normally like in

989
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: the podcast room when we clarify though, for Amy and I,

990
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: just because we don't want the name to be changed

991
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: in no way do I not respect those women and

992
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 1: think it's excellent that we are now paving a pathway

993
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: for women to love. And I don't know how you

994
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: can actually stand by and say that when all you've

995
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: done is hair down the whole. Can I finish its ship?

996
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: You did? I understand that they're not at a level

997
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: because they haven't been provided the pathway. I'm just saying,

998
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 1: I hate this PC world we're living in. Well, we

999
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: are pretending that they are at the same level as

1000
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: the men. They are not. I think they are not

1001
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: well pretend it is. Unfortunately. I think it's about fucking

1002
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: time that we have to be fake about it, because

1003
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: otherwise it won't be put on a platform, it will

1004
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: just be forgotten about women's This fakeness just breeds animosity. Okay,

1005
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: this is mine can allow the men to have. I'm sorry,

1006
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: but it's not. Are we going to pretend? But but

1007
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: I think that the pretending is more patronoted exactly, and

1008
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 1: I think that's not a quality pretending. That's what would

1009
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: you like it to be done on TV? Because no

1010
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: one's going to be as soon as it's off the screens,

1011
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: no one. We would just like it to be called

1012
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: a fl w's okay. I think everyone's taking like, okay,

1013
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick,

1014
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: especially to what I'm saying. What my point is, I

1015
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: think afl W is great. As I said, I would

1016
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: have loved to have had it when I was younger

1017
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: because I would have loved to have played. I think

1018
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: what we have to have an open discussion about is,

1019
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: you know, we are getting to a point where there

1020
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: are low scoring games, and what can we do to

1021
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: make it more entertaining for the people watching, more entertaining

1022
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,879
Speaker 1: for the women. I understand. I think that's what I think.

1023
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: That's kind of what Sophie is saying. We need to

1024
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: have an open discussion. Okay, we can't just pretend it

1025
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: was a phenomenal game. It probably was, but it's not.

1026
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: It needs to be modern in what other female sport.

1027
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but if a net buller was to go

1028
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: out on the court and have an absolutely appalling game,

1029
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 1: they faced quite severe criticisms just from journalists and fans.

1030
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that if there is a game where

1031
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: the level is lacking, where it's been low scoring, I

1032
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: don't think we should be blowing smoke up this this

1033
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: game and saying how fabulous it is, I think constructing criticism.

1034
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: Miss let me finish constructive criticism, not saying, oh, this

1035
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: was an appalling game. Just say it for what it is.

1036
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: Oh oh it was a very you know, great competition.

1037
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: They had great heart, but you know, maybe the ball

1038
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: skills were lacking. We need to and we need to

1039
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: look at a way to modify it to make it

1040
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: more appealing for others to play. Unfortunately, you two have

1041
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: missed the exact point. The point is not who if

1042
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: they are on the same level, the point that's not

1043
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 1: what we were talking about. Such a genders. Well, I

1044
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: think we'll have to just agree to disagree. I think

1045
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: it'd be great if the listeners could weigh in on

1046
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: what they think, because I think it is a really

1047
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: valid conversation. If you would like to join the conversation,

1048
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: please head over to our Instagram page at Outspoken Underscore

1049
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: The Underscore Podcast. Obviously, we would have probably had to

1050
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: remove some of the screaming, as it would have quite

1051
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: unpleasant to have pend If we do get a lot

1052
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: of feedback about it, we may be open to just

1053
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: humiliating ourselves and playing some of that unerror but it

1054
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: was very passionate. It was passionate. We do hope you

1055
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: did enjoy listening to the show. If you did, please

1056
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: leave us a review and, as we said, just be

1057
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: kind out there. Thank you so much for listening