1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Imagine at six am on a Friday morning, you wake 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: up about to get ready for work, but then you 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: remember you don't have to go to work. Instead, you 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: have a blissful three day weekend ahead. 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: Now imagine that you get. 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: To experience this feeling every single Friday morning. Yeah, you're 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: still on a full time salary. This is what life 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: is now like at my consultancy, Inventium. Back in July 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: last year, we ran an experiment to see if we 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: could improve our productivity and fit our work into four 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: normal eight hour days yet still get paid for five 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: seven months on I can tell you that the experiment 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: was a huge success. And on today's episode and also 14 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: on next Thursday's episode, I'm unpacking how on earth we 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: managed to make this work. My name is doctor Amantha Imba. 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational scologist and the founder of behavioral science 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work, a show 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: about how to help. 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: You do your best work. 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: On today's show, I speak to Inventium's head of Learning, 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: Charlotte Rush, because shar led Inventium's approach to implementing the 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: four day week. And I imagine that you probably have 23 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of questions on your mind, because although Inventium 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: is definitely not the first company to do this, we 25 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: are still only. 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: One of a handful globally. 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: So how did this idea for having a four day 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: week even come up, how did we make it happen? 29 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: And how did shar manage to fit all her work 30 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: into just four days. We cover all these questions and more, 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: and on next week's show, I'll be speaking to Inventium 32 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: CEO to uncover how you actually run a business when 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: staff only work four standard days, yet we pay them 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: for five. So we are talking about the new that 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: we started an experiment with in the middle of last year, 36 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: the four day week. And for listeners that are not 37 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: familiar with the four day week or simply think that 38 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: it's trying to fit five days of work into four 39 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: really long, exhausting, arduous day is Shaq, can you just 40 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: explain to listeners what the four day week actually is. 41 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: So the four day week is based on this concept 42 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: of taking one hundred percent productivity, reducing the time down 43 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: to eighty percent whilst maintaining one hundred percent pay. So 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 3: it's not about reducing your pay by eighty percent. The 45 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: intention is not to do super long days and fit 46 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 3: that into four days. It really is about how you 47 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 3: can change your behavior so that you can do what 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 3: is essentially five days work in four days and maintain 49 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: the same pay. 50 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: Yes, and it was pioneered by Andrew Barnes from Perpetual 51 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: Guardian And I'll put a link in the show notes 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: if you want to dig a bit deeper for listeners 53 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: wanting to hear more about it. That's a really good 54 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: interview to go to. Now I want to talk about 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: how we even came up with the idea for trialing 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: this four day week, because it was something that we 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: generated pretty soon after COVID had hit, and COVID hit 58 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: Inventium pretty hard. Within a few weeks, pretty much all 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: our work was canceled or postponed. 60 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: We very sadly. 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: Had to let go of four staff members and so 62 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: that was the environment and Inventium things were pretty full on. 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: So, Shaq, can you talk us through how. 64 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: This idea even came about in amongst this crisis. 65 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: So we decided that seeing as we had this reduced 66 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: team and we were all going to be working remotely 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: whilst we still had previous to COVID, whilst we were 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: working quite flex and a lot of us working from home, 69 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: we did still go to the office. We would often 70 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: see each other a few times a week. So there 71 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: were a lot of changes, and there were also a 72 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 3: lot of challenges external to Invent Him, obviously because of COVID, 73 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: and so we decided to run a little internal idea 74 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 3: generation workshop which was solving the challenge of how can 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 3: we make eight great? So our team was reduced down 76 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: to eight people, but we really were passionate about, okay, 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 3: even though we have a reduced team, how can we 78 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: still have great impact? And also how can we work 79 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: better together with this reduced team in a really hard time? 80 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: So I ran that workshop and we have our challenge, 81 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: how can we make eight great? We had a bunch 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 3: of stimulus and we all got together remotely and came 83 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: up with lots of different ideas. And our CEO, Mish, 84 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: she actually came up with the idea for the four 85 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: day week at Invent Him. 86 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: She did, didn't she? 87 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: And it was so funny when I saw that idea, 88 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: because I remember when I'd. 89 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: Interviewed and Drew on the podcast. 90 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: Just in the back of my head, I thought, oh, 91 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't that be great to try that out, and then 92 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: I just thought, no, no, just focus on getting through 93 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: COVID before you get all experimental with your ideas. 94 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: Amount So I actually really loved that. 95 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: Miss suggested that that was very cool, and do you 96 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: remember what the team's reaction to that idea was. 97 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: Initially? 98 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: I think it was really funny because I remember after 99 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: we shortlisted our ideas down and so everyone gets a 100 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 3: chance to vote on which ideas we actually want to 101 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: try out an experiment with and how can we Sorry, 102 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 3: the four day week was one that obviously got through, 103 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: so people were voting and saying, this is something I 104 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: want to try. But once we'd actually decided, okay, this 105 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: is something we want to try, I remember Mish calling 106 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 3: me afterwards and saying, you know, it seems Charlotte that 107 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: everyone wasn't that excited about it. And I think the 108 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: reaction within the team was excited, but also like, you know, 109 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 3: this is something that we're going to just have to 110 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: try out. And this is we already had a lot 111 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 3: of practices around flexibility, and so for example, we had 112 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: our rebalanced leave process, which was what some people might 113 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: call unlimited paid leave, and so this was just a 114 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: new thing that we were going to try out, and 115 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: I think people were excited, but people were also like, 116 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 3: how on earth is this going to work for us? 117 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: How are we going to get five days work done 118 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 3: in four days? 119 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: So do you think there was trepidation from the team 120 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: based on what you're saying there? 121 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 3: I think yeah, like if we are already we were 122 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: a consultancy, and so absolutely there's times of the year 123 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: when we have downs in terms of not as much work, 124 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: and then there are other times the year when we 125 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: are working really hard. And over the history of inventing, 126 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: we've struggled to find that sweet spot where we can 127 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 3: consistently ensure that people can get great work done and 128 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: not feel overwhelmed. And we've tried lots of different things 129 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 3: around resourcing models and hiring new people and things like that, 130 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 3: but it is a challenge that we keep coming back to. 131 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: And so this to me felt like, whilst it would 132 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 3: be great in the perfect world, I even thought, how 133 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: are we going to make that work in the long run. 134 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: That's interesting. 135 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know that you were a bit cynical about it, Shah, 136 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. 137 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: What do I call myself a cynic? You know? We 138 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: you know, you and you, Amantha and Mish. It's great 139 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: that Mish was able to bring that to the table 140 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: and she was really excited about that, and that's really awesome. 141 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 3: But I guess sometimes it's like, well, we're the ones 142 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: that have to get out there and be managing our 143 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: relationships to our clients and still making sales and doing 144 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 3: all these things to be affective employees. So there is 145 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 3: that thing in the back of your mind of how 146 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: am I going to make this work and still be 147 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:46,239 Speaker 3: able to perform? 148 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, definitely, Okay, i'll rephrase that, I'll call you 149 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: a realist rather than So with that in mind, we 150 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: did as a team decide that we would give it 151 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: a go. And with pretty much everything at Inventium, we 152 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: always frame a new thing as an experiment so that 153 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 1: we can measure it, track it, see how it goes. 154 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: So the next thing was actually designing the logistics and 155 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: the guidelines and the rules even around how this four 156 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: day week concept would work. Because while it sounds simple, oh, 157 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: just to your work in four days, there are actually 158 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: quite a lot of different decisions to make. So can 159 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: you talk through what that process that we went through 160 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: was in terms of designing what the four day week 161 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: would look like for Inventium, yes, And. 162 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 3: So I kind of broke it down in my mind 163 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: into two different objectives, and one of them was to 164 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: think about the experiment and how we were going to 165 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: run the trial and what we were going to measure 166 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: and the hypothesis to test. But the other side of 167 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 3: this was really thinking about how are we going to 168 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: make this work at Inventium and how are we going 169 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: to bring this new work practice to life and essentially 170 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: manage this change because we've seen this happen before where 171 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 3: you bring in a new work practice, and because we 172 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 3: are as humans are, you never know what's going to happen. 173 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: Sometimes there's negative outcomes that you don't expect, and so 174 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: I was thinking, I really want to make sure that 175 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: we are thinking ahead of you know, if this was 176 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: to be a complete failure for us, what would that 177 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 3: look like. Obviously we want it to be a success, 178 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: but if we could have some foresight and think in advance, 179 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 3: what are those risks as well as those opportunities, how 180 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: can we mitigate them now instead of getting ourselves into 181 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 3: this situation of six months or a year from now 182 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 3: where we've got people that are feeling maybe burnt out. 183 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: Maybe they're feeling disconnected, maybe they're feeling like they're not 184 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 3: part of a team anymore. So what I decided to 185 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 3: do was run with the team a pre mortem, and 186 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: a pre mortem is something I learned about from at 187 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 3: Lassian and that's basically where you kind of think in 188 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: advance what could go wrong with this initiative and all 189 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: of the things that could go wrong, work out those risks, 190 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 3: and then essentially work backwards to try and think, Okay, 191 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 3: how do we mitigate those risks? So I ran a 192 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 3: workshop with the team. I put half of the team 193 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 3: into the success team, So what would this look like 194 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 3: if it was an absolute success for us? And half 195 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 3: of the team into a failure team, which is what 196 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 3: would this look like if it was a complete failure 197 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: for us? And we just basically worked through putting together 198 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: a list of ideas around well, this is the potential 199 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: risks and opportunities. 200 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: And I remember I was on the failure team, which 201 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: I hated that you did that to me. 202 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: I did that deliberately. 203 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: I know you did, because I'm naturally very optimistic and 204 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: enthusiastic about most things. And it was funny because there 205 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: were so many things that we identified, like I want 206 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: to say, fifteen or sixteen genuine things that could really 207 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: go wrong and make this a huge failure. Do you 208 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: remember some of those failures that we came up with. 209 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 3: Yes, So the risks of where it could go wrong 210 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: were we were thinking, Okay, what if communication decreases because 211 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: everyone's so focused on being individually productive, maybe we won't 212 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 3: be willing to work together anymore. So obviously then that 213 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 3: would loot lead to a reduction in collaboration, and collaboration 214 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: is so important for us to help us to innovate 215 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: and deliver great outcomes for our clients. There were risks 216 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: around things like divisions within the team. So part of 217 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 3: our team is the digital team, and part of our 218 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 3: team does a lot of client consulting, and so we 219 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: were worried, what if the digital team can't make this 220 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 3: work but the consulting team can make it work. Is 221 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 3: that going to lead to divisions? 222 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: And obviously we identified a whole bunch of successes which 223 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: are probably quite obvious to listeners. 224 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: I mean, what's not to love about a four day week? Really? 225 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: But what did we then do with those failures in 226 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: this pre mortem process? 227 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 3: So we then voted on what we saw together collectively 228 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 3: as a team, what we saw as the biggest risks 229 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 3: and opportunities, because we came up with this full extensive 230 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: list of risks and opportunities, but we needed to tone 231 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 3: in and understand what we as a collective group thought 232 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 3: were the biggest risks and opportunities. So we voted and 233 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 3: then once we'd landed on the top ones, which were 234 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 3: things like that division between the teams, people taking this 235 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 3: as something for granted and treating it as a right 236 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: not a gift, or people saying well, I just can't 237 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 3: get this done because I'm too busy, I've got too 238 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 3: much of a workload. Once we'd identified that short list, 239 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: we then used that to co create our guidelines for 240 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 3: the four day week. Now, what we do it in 241 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: mentum is we try first to focus on intentions of 242 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: the initiative rather than first getting to guidelines. So we 243 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: want to understand, well, what is the intention behind this, 244 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: why are we doing the four day week? What are 245 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 3: our primary objective? Because then that helps us to come 246 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: up with guidelines and make decisions throughout the journey that 247 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 3: aligned to those intentions. So then we basically got the 248 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: team to sit down with all those risks and really 249 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: think through, Okay, well, how do we mitigate this and 250 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: for the opportunities, how do we make sure we take 251 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 3: advantage of those opportunities. So, for example, when it comes 252 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 3: to people thinking well I can't make this work or 253 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 3: I've got too much of a workload, we really talked 254 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 3: about the fact that actually the onus is on each 255 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 3: individual to make it work, and Inventum will support you, 256 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 3: we will provide training and support on that, but it's 257 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: up to you to change your habits. You need to 258 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 3: change the way you work to make this work. And 259 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 3: we need to make sure that we're clear on how 260 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 3: much work that we want to get done each week 261 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 3: so that we're not feeling guilty if we do choose 262 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 3: to take that fifth day off. So it was really 263 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 3: just about having that open conversation and setting the right 264 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 3: intentions for the four day. 265 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: Week and Inventum and what were some of the key 266 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: decisions that we made. 267 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 3: So once we'd run that exercise with the team, I 268 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 3: went away and through conversations with our general manager and 269 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 3: Mish for example, I just had to make some decisions 270 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: and say, well, this is the way that it's going 271 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: to look. So First of all, we wanted to align 272 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: on the primary objective of the four day week for Inventium. 273 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: So when Andrew Barnes talks about the four day week, 274 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: he really talks a lot about the productivity gains, and 275 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: that's because he's obviously having to play a really big 276 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 3: role in convincing big corporates that are very much focused 277 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: on the bottom line in terms of the benefit of 278 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: the four day week. But for us at invent Him, 279 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: this was really about The primary objective was to reduce 280 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 3: intention to leave at Inventuum, so to ensure that we 281 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: could maintain our team of age given that we had 282 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: a smaller team now, and to ultimately make people want 283 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: to stay at Inventum longer, so give them a more 284 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: engaging workplace, a more satisfying workplace, a place where they 285 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: could do really great work. Now, obviously we still needed 286 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: to be able to make a profit and achieve our goals, 287 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: but increasing individual productivity and getting people to produce greater 288 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: output wasn't the primary objective. Do you agree with that 289 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 3: amount one? 290 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: I do agree with that, and it's interesting because I 291 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: think it was a big ass because our engagement scores 292 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: were very high when we started the experiment, I think 293 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: they were in the ninetieth percentile, which means they're in 294 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: the top ten percent for our industry of management consulting. 295 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: So it's not like we were starting from a low base. 296 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: And I think intention to leave it's not something that 297 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: we'd measured before, but I think it's quite low just 298 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: based on our average tenure when I last looked at 299 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: it was three point seven years, which is pretty high 300 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: in this day and age. And yeah, absolutely there's the 301 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: human experience of things. But if that was all going 302 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: brilliantly but we were unprofitable, then obviously there would be 303 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: a problem. So it was maintaining all our company goals 304 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: and certainly the financial ones as well and customer satisfaction, 305 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: but also seeing if we could increase from a very 306 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: high base get it even higher in terms of that 307 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: employee experience of working at inventing it. 308 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: And I think also like we were just really curious 309 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: as well about could we improve our productivity because we'd 310 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: already been on a journey for about two years where 311 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: we'd done training internally as well as consulting work to 312 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: help people improve their productivity, and so this was just 313 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 3: another way to actually take a really curious approach to 314 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: could we actually do more with less time? Which was exciting. 315 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely was. 316 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: So coming back to those other decisions, we also had 317 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 3: to decide, Okay, so the mechanics of this, is this 318 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 3: going to be a day that everyone takes off so 319 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: one day, or is it going to be you can 320 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: choose whatever day you want to take off. So we 321 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: decided that it was going to be one day for 322 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: the entire team and we would do that for the 323 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 3: trial of six months. And the reason we decided that 324 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: was that we're a small team. We wanted to make 325 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 3: sure we still had those opportunities to connect via for example, 326 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 3: internal meetings, and we also had to think about our 327 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 3: clients and making sure that we weren't putting too much 328 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: strain on resourcing, making sure that we could still deliver 329 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 3: for our clients, and that would be a bit challenging 330 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 3: if we had people constantly taking off different days and 331 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 3: then what day and so At Inventium, our mondays are 332 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: generally where we run a few internal meetings, like our 333 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: team meeting. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday are what we call our 334 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: delivery days, so we were working with clients and then 335 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 3: Friday is a day when we don't do client work 336 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 3: and we tend to do some of those additional internal meetings. 337 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 3: So we decided that we would make it Friday, and 338 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: that just seemed intuitive that people would want a long weekend, 339 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: and that meant that we could still connect at the 340 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: start of the week. 341 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: And I think in retrospect they were both really important 342 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: and really good decisions, and particularly now we've been doing 343 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: it for six months now a little bit longer, and 344 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: that rhythm feels really good and it certainly hasn't had 345 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: an impact on client satisfaction. 346 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: So I want to. 347 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: Get into measurement because, as we said, it was an experiment, 348 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: and so as with all good experiments, you need good measures. 349 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: So can you talk about what we decided that we 350 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: would measure and how we went about doing that. 351 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 3: So based on that pre mortem and that identification of 352 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 3: the risks and opportunities, we worked out our hypotheses to test. 353 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 3: So a few of those hypotheses were, first of all, 354 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 3: that employees can participate in the four day week, So 355 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: we didn't want to just do this and then find 356 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 3: out at the end, oh, no one even used it. Maybe, 357 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 3: you know, maybe a month was just take Fridays off 358 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 3: every week. Everyone else was still working. So a fundamental 359 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 3: assumption was that people can participate, so we wanted to 360 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 3: measure that. We also wanted to measure intention to leave, 361 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 3: so the hypothesis was that the four day week will 362 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: reduce intention to leave. We measured things like all of 363 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 3: these kind of people centric measures like productivity, so self 364 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: reported productivity, energy levels, job satisfaction, engagement, stress control, and 365 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: well being. So obviously we wanted all of those to improve. 366 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: And then just some of those additional hypotheses around things 367 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 3: like the four day week will not have a negative 368 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 3: impact on inventing achieving our company goals. So we were okay, 369 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: if we maintained our company goals, it'd be great if 370 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: we surpassed those goals, but we didn't want it to 371 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: negatively impact our ability to achieve our goals and obviously 372 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 3: remain profitable. And then we also wanted to make sure 373 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 3: that it was not going to decrease team connectedness, collaboration 374 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 3: and cohesiveness. And finally, we didn't want it to have 375 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: a negative impact on our ability to respond to clients. So, 376 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: you know, one of those big assumptions was what happens 377 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 3: if a client needs something urgently on Friday, So we 378 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 3: wanted to measure this and ensure that we didn't get 379 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: to the end of the trial and suddenly our clients 380 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: are saying, oh, well, you never respond to me on Fridays. 381 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 3: I don't want to work with you ever. Again, that 382 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 3: didn't happen. 383 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: That didn't happen, and it wouldn't have been great if 384 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 1: that did happen. Now we goodness, there are a lot 385 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: of surveys that we did. 386 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: Can you talk about. 387 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: The like how frequently we measured those variables? And this 388 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: is really getting down into the weeds, and there might 389 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: be some listeners that are like, oh, come on, just 390 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: get on with it. But I know that there'll be 391 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: a lot of listeners that are thinking, how do I 392 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: actually implement this? So I think it's important that we 393 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: get into that detail around what are the variables that 394 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: we measured at the baseline, what are the things that 395 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: we measured literally every week, like every Monday morning, the 396 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: whole team would complete a very quick one minute survey. 397 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: But just some of the choices that we made there 398 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: and why we made those choices. 399 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: I will try to move quickly through it whilst providing 400 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: the detail this was something you have to balance the 401 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: ability to measure and capture good measures. And I really 402 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 3: went into this warning to capture a lot of data 403 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: because I was like, this is a great opportunity. We 404 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 3: can gather so much data. I love running experiments on people, 405 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 3: hence why I'm a psychologist, but I have to balance 406 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 3: that with the people experience and not annoying people on 407 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 3: the team. I'm sure I still did annoy the team, but. 408 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: Hopefully it will we got yoused to it. 409 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: I think those weekly surveys, yeah, every Monday. Ah N 410 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: this survey again, but it was quick and easy, So 411 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: it is finding that balance, I think, because like Yushah, 412 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: I love getting data from surveys. I just don't like 413 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: doing surveys and recognize that that is not a passion 414 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: for most people. 415 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: So in that weekly survey, it was a very quick one. 416 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 3: It asked if you participated in the four day week 417 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: in the previous week. So it was sent Monday morning 418 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 3: and it just asked did you take the day off? 419 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 3: And we broke that down into did you take the 420 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 3: full day off a half day or did you work 421 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 3: just about two maybe two hours? And our definition of 422 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: having the four day week was you took either the 423 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 3: full day off or you worked less than two hours. 424 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 3: So then we also measured cohesiveness and collaboration, so we 425 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 3: asked questions like were you able to reach out to 426 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: people and your team for help last week? Did you 427 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 3: receive help when you requested it? And then we also 428 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 3: measured that client responsiveness, so we asked did you receive 429 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 3: any urgent requests from clients on Friday or Thursday night? 430 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 3: And if you did, how many of them were you 431 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 3: able to respond to? So there was this We did 432 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 3: talk about this in the sense that even though you 433 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: take the Friday off, it was expected that if you 434 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 3: had a that called you needed something urgently, you would 435 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 3: still help them out. You would still do what you 436 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 3: need to do and get that work done if they 437 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 3: have that urgent request. Luckily, we very rarely received those 438 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 3: urgent requests on Friday, and whenever we did, people told 439 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 3: us that they were able to get back to those clients. 440 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 3: So that was the weekly survey. Then throughout the six months, 441 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: every two months we did another survey where we reported 442 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 3: on self reported productivity, job satisfaction, engagement, energy level, stress control, 443 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: and intention to leave. And then we also have another 444 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 3: survey that we already do an eventing that comes out monthly, 445 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: and so I just pulled the data from that, so 446 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: people were already answering these questions, and that asked about cohesion, 447 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 3: so how much you felt a sense of togetherness with 448 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 3: the team, as well as flexibility, because we were hoping 449 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 3: to see that this wouldn't make people feel like they 450 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 3: were less flexible at work. We actually wanted to improve flexibility, 451 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 3: but I thought, in the back of my mind, maybe 452 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: this will make people feel more constrained. So I just 453 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 3: also kept an eye on that measure. 454 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: And that survey for those that are interested, is from 455 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: p con p Eakon, which is a global tech company 456 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: that does engagement surveys that we use and is a 457 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: really good one a small business, so I'll link to 458 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: that in the show notes. So a lot of measures 459 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: and we did set baseline measures on all of those things. 460 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: So what were the results? Yeah, what did the results 461 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: tell us? 462 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: So in terms of participation, we were measuring that weekly, 463 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 3: but then once I looked at it across from the 464 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: baseline to the end of the six months, So participation 465 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 3: on average across the entire team was about seventy percent 466 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,239 Speaker 3: and so remember when I say participation, that meant that 467 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 3: people were either taking the full day off or they 468 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 3: were working less than two hours on that Friday. So 469 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 3: that was great, and our metric for success was fifty percent. 470 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: And does seventy percent mean that across the team on average, 471 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: seventy percent of the team took the friday off. Is 472 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: that what you mean by seventy percent. 473 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 3: It means across the team, across each week, on average, 474 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 3: you were able to take the four day week seventy 475 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 3: percent of the time. What we found, basically, at a 476 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: high level, all of our hypotheses were validated except for one. Okay, 477 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 3: so I'll leave that last one to the end. But 478 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 3: essentially what we saw was a and this is comparing 479 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: baseline to six months. We saw a twenty six percent 480 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 3: increase in productivity. We saw a twelve percent increase in 481 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 3: job satisfaction, a nine percent increase in engagement, an eighteen 482 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 3: percent reduction in stress, an eleven percent increase in a 483 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 3: sense of control, and a twenty two percent increase in 484 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 3: well being. So those were all statistically significant. We did 485 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 3: see a twenty one percent increase in energy levels, but 486 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: that was non significant, and so what that means is 487 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 3: that there was probably just too much variability and not 488 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 3: even though it sounds a lot twenty one percent, there 489 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 3: must have just been too much variability for that to 490 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 3: be statistically significant. Now, the one that was not validated 491 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 3: was intention to leave, So we did have a nine 492 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 3: percent reduction in intention to leave, so that is an improvement, 493 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 3: but it wasn't statistically significant. 494 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: And it's probably worth pointing out that sample size of eight, 495 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: so small sample size. It's always tricky when it comes 496 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: to statistical significance and reading too much into that. I mean, 497 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: it's pretty insane when you do get statistical significance in 498 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: a small sample size, but it's probably not to be expected. 499 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: So I know, for me, I was. 500 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: Just hoping that the numbers were trending in the right direction, 501 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: which is about as much as you can expect from 502 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: a sample of eight. And then the other thing that 503 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: we also looked at our company goals, and financially, we 504 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: met our company goals two months early for the first 505 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: half of this financial year that we're in, which is 506 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: insane and I think from memory, this is the first 507 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: time that we've actually met every single one of our 508 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: company goals, which are around customer or client satisfaction and 509 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: also around employee experience for the first half of the 510 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: financial year. I think this is the first time that 511 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: we've met all of them. 512 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was amazing, and I guess you put that 513 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: into context of the year that we had last year, 514 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 3: and it was obviously a really tough year, and so 515 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 3: the scientist in me is kind of like, you know, 516 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: you would love to do this in a controlled environment 517 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 3: where you don't have a global pandemic happening in the background, 518 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 3: and to have, like you said, a larger sample size 519 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 3: so that you could, you know, if I was to 520 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: do this again, I would love to have a huge 521 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: number of people and to be doing this without the 522 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 3: global pandemic hanging over us, because it would be really 523 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: amazing to see the results that we could have with 524 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 3: that as well. 525 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: It would be yes. 526 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because we started the experiment just before 527 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: the second Wave happened in Melbourne and we all I 528 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: think in August it was or late July or went 529 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: into stage four lockdown. So that was kind of interesting 530 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: to have that going on in the background because a 531 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: lot of our team are based in Melbourne. So yeah, 532 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: I mean, the results were fantastic and it was really 533 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: an easy decision to go, well, of course we will 534 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: keep this going. 535 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: So I want to move on. 536 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: Now to hearing about what it was like for you, 537 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: Shat and what your experience was. So to start with personally, 538 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: what did you change about how you worked to fit 539 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: everything into four I'm assuming normal length work days. 540 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 3: I definitely didn't increase the amount of time I was 541 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 3: working on the other four days. If I kind of 542 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 3: reflect back over that six months, I generally work kind 543 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 3: of like eight till five, and that didn't change. But 544 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 3: what I was thinking when I first when we first 545 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 3: started this was how can I be sure that I 546 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 3: can take that Friday off each week? I was worried 547 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 3: about what if I get to the end of the 548 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: six months and I haven't achieved my goals, and now 549 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 3: the team doesn't achieve our company goals. And how do 550 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: I actually know that I can take the Friday off 551 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 3: and not feel guilty? How do I know that I'm 552 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 3: doing enough work? And so what I did is I 553 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 3: broke down my six monthly goals, so we use the 554 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 3: okay our framework, and I broke that down into quarterly, monthly, 555 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 3: and weekly activities. So I really wanted to be prescriptive 556 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 3: of okay at this point, so by the end of July, 557 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 3: I should have achieved this for this specific goal. Now, 558 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: obviously they weren't hard rules, but it was allowing me 559 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: to have that guidance of you know, if you've got 560 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: this sales target for six months, here's what it should 561 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 3: look like generally throughout that six months. And that really 562 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 3: helped me to know that I was tracking well enough 563 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: to take that Friday off. The other thing I did 564 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: was at the end of each week, so on the 565 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: Thursday afternoon, I would write down my deep work tasks 566 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 3: for the following week. So deep work, maybe I'll get 567 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 3: you to explain it, Amantha. I mean, I'm sure your 568 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 3: listeners know what it is because you talk about it 569 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: a lot. 570 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: I do. I do talk about it a lot on 571 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: the podcast. So deep work, for those that are not familiar, 572 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: term from Professor Callan Newport from Georgetown University, and deep 573 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: work is work that really requires a great amount of 574 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: focus and attention and a lack of interruption. So it's 575 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: kind of like the heavy duty brain power work. 576 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: So I would get to Thursday afternoon to reflect on Okay, 577 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: can I take tomorrow off and then with that in 578 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: mind in terms of where I need to be tracking 579 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 3: for this six months, do I need to achieve next week? 580 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: In that deep work chunk of time that I do 581 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 3: every morning and throughout the six months. At one point 582 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: when I was a little bit behind on my sales target, 583 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 3: I also started working out, you know what I need 584 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 3: to do in terms of business development next week. Beyond that, 585 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 3: we'd already done a lot of training around productivity, but 586 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 3: there were things that I just added in. And that's 587 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: after we got you to run a little bit of 588 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 3: additional training with the team in terms of his I 589 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 3: think you gave people like twelve tips of things that 590 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 3: you can change to help you to succeed in this 591 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 3: four day week. So I started time boxing emails, so 592 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 3: instead of just sitting with my inbox constantly open, I 593 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: set three points throughout the day when I would check 594 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 3: my emails. I wasn't as disciplined with that as I 595 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 3: need to be, and so I've just started using inboxmen Ready, 596 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: which is a software I plug in in Gmail which 597 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 3: just locks you out of your inbox. To make me 598 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: a little bit more disciplined about that, and just really 599 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 3: using my calendar to make appointments with myself and really 600 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 3: being disciplined about deep work. You know, bad habits creep 601 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 3: in and you are obviously a very productive person, Amantha, 602 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 3: But I feel like I'm still I'm not at that 603 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 3: level of like being automated around not getting distracted. Like 604 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: for example, right now, I am looking to buy a 605 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 3: property and I feel like using those apps with the 606 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 3: domain and real estate, it's now that is fighting from 607 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 3: my attention and distracting me. So I constantly need to 608 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 3: be coming back to what am I trying to achieve 609 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: and removing those bad habits. 610 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: I must say my bad habit last year became checking 611 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: the news, I think because I was based in Melbourne 612 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: and the environment here was at some points of the 613 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: year changing on a daily basis, and so that was 614 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: definitely my bad habit that I needed to kick from 615 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: last year. 616 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: So I can understand that. 617 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: How about for your client's Shah, because you are a 618 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: consultant in what you do and your client facing what 619 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: was the reaction from clients who knew that you were 620 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: off every Friday? 621 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 3: So we had this team auto Responder which you could 622 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 3: put on your email every Friday, so that if people 623 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 3: did email you, they knew not to expect a response. 624 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 3: But with my clients that I have those longer term 625 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: relationships with, I told them that I would be taking 626 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 3: Fridays off and most of them were like, you know, 627 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 3: they know what invent Him's like, and they're like, oh, 628 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 3: good for you, and that's really cool and let us 629 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,239 Speaker 3: know how that goes. And for those clients that I 630 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 3: was forming new relationships with, I might just not mention it. 631 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: And I was happy to check my emails in the 632 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 3: morning on Friday and let people know I'll get back 633 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: to you on Monday. And I don't think I even 634 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 3: remember anyone kicking up of us. I think it's about 635 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 3: the relationship that you build with clients and building that 636 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 3: trust and they know that we do always deliver and 637 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 3: there's not an exception here just because it's where we're 638 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 3: trying out a new thing and invent him. 639 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I found the same. 640 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm I think I'm less client facing than you because 641 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: of some of the other things I'd do in my role, 642 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: but I'd be speaking to clients every day, and I 643 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: think for me. 644 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: The response was a very positive one. 645 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: Like I would quite frequently have conversations with clients or 646 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: prospects who were like, oh, I love what you're doing. 647 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: I sent your out of office email around to my 648 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: team because it was so interesting this experiment. So I 649 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: think I only heard a positive response. And in terms 650 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: of urgent things, I mean, let's face it, we're not 651 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: cardiac surgents, so we don't really have emergencies or urgent things, 652 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: Like the most urgent thing that would happen in my 653 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: life is a client or a speaker's bureau urgently in 654 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: inverted commas, needing to know if I was available on 655 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: a certain date for a keynote talk. And for me, 656 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 1: while I was able to take a lot of Fridays off, 657 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: I would typically do an hour or two worth of 658 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: work in the morning, which was generally just playing a 659 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: little bit of catch up on something. But also it 660 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 1: meant that during the work week, during those four days, 661 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: I was less stressed if I didn't quite get to 662 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: finish a few things, if I had a few loose 663 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: ends to tie up. But yeah, I found that having 664 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: that buffer time of just an hour or two on 665 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: Friday morning really useful, and certainly for the clients that 666 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: I was liaising with. I don't think I had any 667 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: negative feedback at all around the fact that we don't 668 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: really work Fridays. 669 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 3: And to be honest, I definitely didn't take it every week, 670 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 3: and it just really followed already how I was working 671 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 3: previously in terms of consulting, where you have busy weeks 672 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 3: and then you have more quiet weeks, and so there 673 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 3: would be months where I would work probably like five 674 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 3: hours every Friday, but then there'd been a whole nother 675 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 3: month where I could take every Friday off. So it 676 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 3: changed your mindset in terms of, like you said, just 677 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,399 Speaker 3: having that spare day up your sleeve, so that if 678 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 3: you don't get to those things you can get to 679 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 3: on the Friday, and then the weeks that you can 680 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 3: take it off, then that's great. 681 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: So shout what you do with yourself on these Fridays. 682 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 3: Well, the first one, I went to visit my sister 683 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 3: and my brother in law and my two nieces. So 684 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 3: I drove on the Thursday night. My sister lives about 685 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 3: five hours away from me, so just knowing that I 686 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 3: had that long weekend with them. I remember the first 687 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 3: morning we got up and we went out and we 688 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 3: were moving the sheep from one paddock to another, and 689 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 3: I'm sitting on the four wheel or with my three 690 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 3: year old niece, and I was like, because of inmentium 691 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 3: and the four day week, I can sit here and 692 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 3: be part of this, which is important to me. Beyond that, 693 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 3: I think I was about a month in and I 694 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 3: was like, you know what, I don't want to waste 695 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 3: this time. If something happens and we don't get to 696 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 3: do this anymore, I need to know that I've used 697 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: this time valuably. And so I decided to start training 698 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 3: to become a bar instructor, which you know is just 699 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 3: a bit different to what I do day to day, 700 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: which I liked. 701 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 2: So shout what is barr? 702 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: Like like, I'm imagining that some listeners are thinking of alcohol, 703 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: but that is not what you're talking about. 704 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 2: So what is bar? 705 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 3: I did tell a friend that I had started a 706 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 3: bar instructor course and he thought that I meant working 707 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 3: at a bar. 708 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is. 709 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 3: You might have heard Scott Morrison talk about it as barre, 710 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 3: and it is a combination of ballet, yoga and pilates. 711 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 2: So are you qualified now? 712 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: Shah No, I'm still going. I've got a few more 713 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 3: months and I'm doing all my teaching now I've done 714 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 3: all of the learning, but I'm still working through it. 715 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 3: So you get it takes like a six month process, 716 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 3: so I'm like four months in I think, so yeah, 717 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 3: I'm really enjoying it. I love that I get to 718 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 3: use a different part of my brain and I've always 719 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 3: been really passionate about the body and exercise and wellness 720 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 3: and I'm really enjoying it. And it's just a new 721 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 3: way to connect with a new community as well. 722 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 723 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: I remember in Melbourne a few years ago I did 724 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: bar class pretty religious, like three or four times a 725 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: week for about a year. 726 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: And it was so fun. 727 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: So you're going to have to run like virtual by 728 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: classes for the team show. I can't believe we haven't 729 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: had this discussion yet. 730 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 3: Yes, I will, I will. I will absolutely do that, 731 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 3: and so yeah, outside from the bar and they're just great. 732 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 3: Like spending time with family and doing a little bit 733 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 3: of extra work sometimes on Fridays, I think what I 734 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 3: really loved is also just having that headspace to read 735 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 3: as well. So I read a lot of business books 736 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 3: and psychology books and it's something I enjoy, but it 737 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 3: is also for work, and so knowing that I have 738 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 3: that time on Friday to read those sorts of books, 739 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 3: and then on the weekend I can read my fictional 740 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 3: fun books because I really love reading, but it's hard 741 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 3: to find that time to read. So I really loved 742 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 3: having that free space to do that on Fridays. 743 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: And I know that because you're an organizational psychologist and 744 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of org psych friends, I know 745 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: that you've had a few people question the idea of 746 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: the four day week, and I'd love to get into that, 747 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: like what are some of the critics saying to you 748 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: or the skeptics saying to you, and maybe we can 749 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: address some of those things. 750 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 3: Yes, And I'm also interested in your viewpoint as well. 751 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 3: So the critics that I've heard would say, well, you 752 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 3: must just be working less, like you're literally just taking 753 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,399 Speaker 3: that extra day off and working less. And I think 754 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 3: that really comes back to this idea that it is 755 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 3: difficult when you are a knowledge worker to really see 756 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 3: the output of your work in the day to day. 757 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 3: It's not like we're in factories where you can just see, okay, 758 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 3: I've made fifty widgets today or something like that. It's 759 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 3: a little bit harder to see the outcomes of our 760 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 3: performance in a short term kind of basis. 761 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: I find that an interesting one. 762 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: I think that for me, knowing that the week is 763 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: four days and not five, my mindset is different. I 764 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: feel like in a five day week, even though I 765 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: feel like I a more productive than the average bear, 766 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm still not one hundred percent productive one hundred percent 767 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: of the time. Absolutely not. But I felt like the 768 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: move to the four day week just brought a new 769 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: level of discipline to my work days where I would 770 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: be much more conscious about how I use my time, 771 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: and really with the reward being that I get to 772 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: free myself up on Friday to do all sorts of 773 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: things that I might not have previously had time to do. 774 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's hard to quantify, but I think you 775 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: have a sense of it. And also, ultimately, if you're 776 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: meeting your own OKRs, then and I like how you 777 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: talked about breaking yours down to quarterly and monthly and weekly, 778 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: then you are on track and you are achieving that output. 779 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: I just think that question comes from the assumption that 780 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: people are productive one hundred percent of the time, and 781 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: I just think that that's absolutely rubbish. 782 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 3: And I think also the mistake is thinking that the 783 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 3: four day week is just about dropping that fifth day, 784 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 3: which it's not. It requires a change in your behavior 785 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 3: to get what was done on that fifth day done 786 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 3: in the other four days. And so this actually means 787 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 3: becoming more productive. So really consciously think about removing unnecessary meetings, 788 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 3: doing more of that deep focused work so you can 789 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 3: actually have better outcomes, and putting some more discipline around 790 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 3: not getting distracted by chat and social media and things 791 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 3: like that. And so that's what facilitates the four day 792 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 3: week being possible. And so this concern of well, you're 793 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 3: just working less, I think that that's a view of Well, 794 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 3: there's people that might just take the piss out of 795 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 3: it and just literally work the four days, but then 796 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 3: you would probably see a twenty percent reduction in their 797 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 3: achievement of their goals, in which case, if you have 798 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 3: some structures in place to manage people's goals and manage 799 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 3: people's performance, then you would need to deal with that. 800 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 3: But you know, once you make these changes, you become 801 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,919 Speaker 3: more productive so that you can take that fifth day off, 802 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 3: and it drives this sense of motivation so that you're 803 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 3: saying to yourself every day, all right, I could take 804 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 3: an extra long lunch. Lunch break right now, or I 805 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 3: could allow myself to get into a social media hole. 806 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 3: But then you're saying yourself, well, if I do that, 807 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 3: then I probably can't take Friday off. So I'm not 808 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 3: going to let myself get distracted, and I am going 809 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 3: to change how I work to enable me to have 810 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 3: that gift of the time. 811 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, couldn't agree more. 812 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: Now, I know that another skeptic that you spoke to thought, well, 813 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: how does that appear from a client's point of view? 814 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: Because don't clients want to see that you're one hundred 815 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: percent committed to work? And how can you possibly be 816 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: one hundred percent committed to the job if you're taking 817 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: Fridays off? 818 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 2: What do you think about that? 819 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 3: Well, lots of research shows that working around the clock 820 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 3: leads to burn out. And when you're burnt out so stressed, tired, 821 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 3: not feeling engaged, that doesn't lead to high quality work. 822 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 3: And so what does lead to that high quality work 823 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 3: is the reduction of distractions, having employees who are happier, 824 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 3: less stressed, more engaged. And these are all the things 825 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 3: that we measured. So if we look at that, then 826 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 3: it's actually saying, well, our clients pay us because we're 827 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 3: intelligent people who put together solutions to help them solve 828 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 3: really challenging problems. Like you know, I'm one hundred and 829 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 3: fifty year old company, and I want to be more innovative. 830 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,720 Speaker 3: How do I get my workforce of a thousand people 831 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 3: to question the status quo, come up with new ideas, 832 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,439 Speaker 3: and implement really game changing ideas. So these are really 833 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 3: challenging problems, and so it requires us to think really 834 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 3: deeply about things and be able to deliver this high 835 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 3: quality of output, which is not something you can do 836 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 3: when you are burnt out. 837 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: Definitely, I feel like it's a really old school view 838 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: to go, oh, well, clearly you're not as dedicated to 839 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 1: the job if you're taking fridays off. 840 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 2: I just think you want to. 841 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: Work with people who are energized by what they do 842 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 1: and passionate about what they do and not tired and stressed. 843 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,439 Speaker 1: And also you don't want to work with people that 844 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: have nothing else in their life other than their work. 845 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: I feel like you want to work with people, and 846 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: I'm assuming our clients want to work with people who 847 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: are well rounded, and I think that that's one of 848 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: the things that makes all of us in the team 849 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: really great At what we do. Because we do all 850 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: have quite broad interests, we are exposed to all sorts 851 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: of things in our lives, not just our work. 852 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 2: And I think. 853 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: Because of the various ways that we've tried flexibility and 854 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: now with this four day week, if you're dealing with inventium, 855 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: you're probably dealing with someone who's pretty happy and pretty 856 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: energized by work and you know, also life in general. 857 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 2: Is that fair to say? Do you think so? 858 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 3: Yes? I think that's fair to say. And I think 859 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 3: that this other criticism might be that being more productive 860 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 3: actually goes along with more working more days. Like if 861 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 3: you think about someone who works only three days a 862 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 3: week versus someone that's fully immersed in their work maybe 863 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 3: six or seven days a week, then they're going to 864 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 3: be really really productive. But it's not necessarily about working 865 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 3: more days. I think that getting really productive work done 866 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 3: actually comes from being really immersed and fully focused on something, 867 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,919 Speaker 3: and that being the causal effect of productivity. So people 868 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 3: might assume that if you're only working three days a week, 869 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 3: you're not fully immersed and focused. It's not about the hours, 870 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 3: it's about the habits that you have in that time 871 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 3: that you're working to enable you to be more productive. 872 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,839 Speaker 3: So whilst you might be you know a lawyer that 873 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 3: works really hard five days a week, it's really I 874 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 3: think about not confound the time that they're putting in 875 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 3: with actually the habits that they have that enable that 876 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,280 Speaker 3: really productive output. 877 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 1: Couldn't agree more. Now, Shah, I want to say thank 878 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,359 Speaker 1: you for sharing your views on the four day week, 879 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: and also thank you for really leading the process at Inventium. 880 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 2: I think it's been. 881 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: Such a good, solid process in terms of how we 882 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,399 Speaker 1: involve the team, how we measured things, how you kept 883 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,720 Speaker 1: us on track with everything, and now the ultimate outcome 884 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: that we all get to enjoy a four day week 885 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future. So thank you for your time, Sharon. 886 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: Thank you for leading this initiative at Inventium. 887 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 3: My pleasure and I hope that more people take it 888 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 3: on and it's just an exciting thing to be part of. 889 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 3: And I hope that someone listens to this and takes 890 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 3: this to their boss and maybe they can get a 891 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 3: little bit of an experiment going. 892 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be bloody awesome. So that is it 893 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: for it today's episode. I hope you enjoyed my chat 894 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: with Shah and maybe it's got you thinking about how 895 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 1: could you implement a four day working week where you work, 896 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: or maybe how could you suggest it to your boss 897 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 1: or the powers that be in your organization. And if 898 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: you're keen to know even more, I'll be interviewing Michelle 899 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: la Poidevin, who is Inventium CEO next week on how 900 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: I work to understand how from a leader's point of view, 901 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: do you actually lead a four day week? How as 902 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: the CEO does mish fit five days worth of work 903 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: into four, and we both will be talking about how 904 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 1: we have managed to increase our productivity, which I think 905 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: was pretty high to begin with, and condense our week 906 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: into just four normal days. 907 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 2: So that's it for today. 908 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,720 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying how I work, I would be deeply 909 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: appreciative if you could take ten seconds out of your 910 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: day to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. You might 911 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,879 Speaker 1: want to select a star rating, or you can even 912 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: write some lovely words about what you. 913 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:12,760 Speaker 2: Think of the show. 914 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: So that is it for today and I will see 915 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: you next time.