WEBVTT - Feel stuck in small talk? Daniel Coyle shares the questions that create real connection. 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:04.800 Here's something I've been thinking about. Most of us are 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.360 walking around with stories worth telling from our own lives 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.600 and their own experiences, and we talk ourselves out of 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:16.640 sharing them. Sometimes we think no one will care about that, 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.000 that's just my story. But Daniel Coyle has spent his 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.360 career proving that instinct wrong. Daniel is the best selling 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.120 author of The Talent Code and The Culture Code, and 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.920 his new book Flourish is probably what are the most 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.880 dogg eared books I've read in a while. In this conversation, 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.919 we get into how he finds and constructs stories that 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.720 pull people in. We also get into the specific questions 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.559 that create real connection, ones you can pull out the 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.480 next time you're stuck in a sea of small talk. 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.280 And he also gives me a concrete structure for building 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:58.240 local community when you're craving something more than surface level friendships. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.080 Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:13.560 and strategies. 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:14.360 For optimizing your date. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:22.600 I'm your host, doctor, Amantha Imber Daniel. When I sat 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.160 down to read your book, I feel like often with 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.319 business books, you kind of go okay, I can kind 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.200 of skim through the stories, and I'm just going to 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:34.240 get to, you know, the practical stuff here. But I 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.560 was so sucked in by your storytelling, as I have 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.399 been with all your books, but particularly in Flourish, and 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.319 I actually want to start with asking how do you 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.800 find such great stories to tell? And then my second 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.520 part is how do you actually construct them in a 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:53.880 way that really just sucks in the reader like it 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:54.640 certainly did for me. 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:56.960 Ah, those are good questions. Thank you and thanks for 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.680 having me. I'm delighted to be here with you, And 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.200 what a good way to start. I guess I pay 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:06.760 attention to my own reaction to story. Like certain stories 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.360 and they always end up being mysteries, but they contain 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.440 a couple of ingredients. The first is a deep, deep mystery. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:15.639 They're getting it something that really has call to us 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.720 some deep question. Why do some groups combine in ways 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.320 that seem allst magical and other groups fall apart? And 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.320 those and I have a sucker like everybody for a 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.799 good underdog story are a good unlikely story. So you 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.919 kind of start with some structure where there's some surprise emerging. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.440 In the middle of that surprise is some mystery that 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.919 is not abstract but is really just like relatable some mystery. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.560 That's the best mysteries are the ones that are right 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.480 in front of your nose, Like you stir your cream 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:43.560 into your coffee and you see a pattern. It's like, 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:45.679 why is it like that and not like some other way? 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.519 Or why was Thanksgiving dinner so wonderful this year that 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.320 it wasn't last year? Some kind of basic thing right there. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.239 And then the third thing I look for is access, 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.600 Like I need to be able to have access to 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:00.600 the people who are in this story. I can find 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.399 out what really happened when those elements are there. When 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.000 I'm responding, I find myself I'm leaning into this. Why 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:08.840 am I leaning into it? I have to ask that? 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.280 And then is that a really a one time thing? 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.079 Or is that something that is a present in everybody's life? 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.560 Is everyone struggling with this issue? So every story has 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.240 got somebody you're rooting for, some big obstacle on some transformation. 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.919 Those three elements, and if the person we're rooting for 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.880 is relatable, if the obstacle is also kind of mysterious 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.840 and relatable, and the transformation is real, that's something to explore. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.200 But then often some of the stories don't work out. 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.120 I'd hate to show you my notebooks for this book. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:36.920 I mean, the book is maybe an inch thick, but 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.200 I've got several feet of notebooks with stories that like, oh, 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.000 that one doesn't quite fit, or that one's too much 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:42.520 like this one. 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:45.080 I recently had a guest on that talked about some 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.640 research from LinkedIn that said that storytelling is one of 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.320 the five most important skills that people are going to 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.600 need for the next few years. And you share a 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.080 lot of stories from your own life in the book, 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:01.400 and I'm wondering, how do you mind your own life 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.880 for stories? Like are you constantly just recording things that 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.720 happen in your day? What's your process around that? 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.960 It starts, I think with a process of reflection. There's 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.040 such power in zooming out, Amantha. There's such power in 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.320 sort of having a regular reflective practice, but also a 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.919 practice that might let you look further than just the 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.280 day that just passed to the weeks that just passed. 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.039 And at some point in this for some reason, I 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.120 found myself drawing on a piece of paper like the 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.680 shape of my life, and I ended up drawing you know, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:33.680 something that was a little bit like that, like, and 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.440 it just got me thinking, is that that exercise got 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.240 me thinking why did I end up here? So again 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.680 we end up in that question of finding mysteries that 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.720 don't really have a clear answer, and then using that 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.800 energy of that question and that mystery, Well, I was 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:51.360 going to be a doctor. How did I end up 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.120 being a writer? And so the surreality of that and 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:55.960 the mystery of that is what got me to think 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:57.760 about it. So that's one piece of it, and the 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.880 other piece of it is kind of a courage thing. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.320 There's a reflexive response. We all have to say, oh, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.880 that's just my story. Nobody will care about that, you know, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:06.640 we all sort of feel and I feel that in 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.839 a big way. Like at the end of this book, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.720 I tell a story about friendships that came about as 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:13.840 a result of some of the things that I learned 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.240 through the process of writing this book. You know, every 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.760 book changes you, and this book changed me. And so 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:20.520 I really resisted that for a long time. I thought, Oh, 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.440 that's just my story. Those are just my friends. That's 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.440 not a big deal, right, We're kind of it's imposter syndrome, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.760 you could call it. That we don't tend to look 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.599 at our own lives the way other people would and 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.000 to actually get yourself in a headspace where you can 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:35.800 zoom out and say, wait a minute, that really is 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.000 I'm not just sort of going down my belly button 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.480 to sort of celebrate something. There really is something there. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.120 There's something that other people could relate to about being 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.080 in midlife and finding a new group of friendships. And 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.720 so I guess my process was sort of like coming 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.240 to grips with it myself, realizing there's something there, there's 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.839 something worth telling, there's something universal about my experience, and 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.799 then kind of testing it out like verbally, like I think, 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.680 you don't know what's in a good story until you 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.040 actually have to put it in the air and tell 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.000 it to someone. It can look good in your journal, 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.000 it can look really pretty and transformative, but actually go 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.400 tell someone and see how they respond. Tell it, Tell 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.560 it again, see what is resonating. Stories are kind of 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:19.200 these beautiful little machines, and they function on mystery and 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.120 on tension, and locating those moments will help you tell 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.080 the story better and your relationship with the story will change. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.000 You'll start out thinking, oh, this is a story about friendship, 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.159 and you'll realize that it's about a story about maybe 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.000 truth or a story about fear. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:39.039 So how then do you construct a story to I 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:43.760 guess optimize the tension and mystery and those elements. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.920 I think it was Aristotle who talked about it. For first, 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.480 you begin at a question. You try to begin at 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.360 some kind of juncture where there's a mystery. And it's 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.800 like all movies, this is you. You begin at some moment, 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.960 some moment where things are coming together, find that moment, 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.279 and then back off and then show a even bigger mystery, right, 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.400 And then so you've got two things happening at once. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:07.800 You've got what's going to happen at this moment, but 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.080 then you've got that's embedded in some larger story. Every 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:12.520 story is a little bit different, but they all have 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:17.000 that same internal structure of saying, here's a protagonist, here's 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.880 an obstacle, and here's a transformation. And your last tool 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.880 that you have is your sand paper to take away 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.440 everything that's not essential. So there's a temptation when we're 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.680 telling a story to include everything, to include extras, to 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.640 talk about this, but really, in the end you want 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:34.720 to be very kind of ruthless and just put in 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.600 the parts of the machine that are going to advance 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.040 your story. Figure out what you're responding to. Are you 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.120 responding to the fear in the story? Are you respire, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.240 you're rooting for someone in the story. What are you 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.840 responding to? Name that and that will help you tell 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:48.880 it too. You know, if you want to get good 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.120 to telling a story, the world has got a lot 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.640 of places for you to go to school. Find your 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.160 ten favorite stories and outline them and figure out what 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.560 makes them tick and reduce them to bullet points, and 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.120 then read it and then try to write it yourself 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.160 by memory as much as you can put yourself in 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.440 a position of constructing the stories you love. I know 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.000 some writers that will just take their favorite passages and 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.760 just type them, and it sounds kind of crazy and 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.840 woo woo. But to actually take your favorite passage and 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.240 then type it and slow it down and write it, 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.840 it gives you a feeling for how the story's moving 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.080 and where the camera's going, and where the obstacle is 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:27.160 and where your mind. 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.840 Is I reckon. The same could be said of asking 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.560 good questions. And something that struck me about Flourish is 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:38.800 that there were so many brilliant, reflective questions for readers 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.200 to learn about and getting on like I just I 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:45.520 made so many marks and underlinings and doggie as when 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.080 I was reading Flourish. I would love to know which 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:50.800 of the questions stayed with you. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:52.760 It's been a slow journey. Like a lot of people, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:54.560 I have a lot of belief in answers and what 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:56.680 this book taught me, I think the same as you. 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:58.840 It's like, it's not about the answers, especially in an 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.080 age when answers are like as cheap as tap water. 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.600 It's like the question, like a great question, a question 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.880 that I think about a lot, is what does your 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.160 perfect day look like? I find myself thinking about that 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.480 a lot. My wife and I are newly empty nesters, 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:15.560 so we have got this extra time in our schedule, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.679 and that question itself just inspires such deep thought and 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.520 collaboration around it. You know, the question sends us out 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.880 on this journey. And there's one that someone asked in 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.040 the book, which was what would someone need to know 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.480 about you in order to be your best friend? That's 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.320 got me thinking too about like what do I really value? 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.080 What would I say? The question I end up using 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.400 the most is one that I learned through the book, 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.840 which is what's energizing you right now. Questions like that 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.280 create this. You know, there's that phrase that you know, 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.360 we've all heard a lot creating space, like we're going 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.000 to create space. I never used to like that phrase, Amantha. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:51.839 I always felt kind of woo woo, And as a 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.199 science journalist, I'm like, oh, come on, you're not creating space. 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.720 Actually I was totally wrong. Creating space is so real 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.280 and what does that is a great question. So when 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.880 I say what's energizing you right now, I'm really giving 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.200 you this zone that you can play in, that you 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.160 can share if you like, you can not share if 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.520 you want. But it's creating the space for us to 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.559 have a different kind of encounter than if I said 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:14.560 what are you working on right now? Or if I 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.160 said here's what I'm doing. What's made me realize what 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:22.400 a precious resource and what a powerful tool those small, 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.760 deep questions are. And the last one that I found 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.679 myself using is why does this matter to you? If 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.440 you can carve out these little islands, these little places 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.600 to stand with other people to ask, why does that 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.839 matter to you that relationships happen in those moments? Life 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:44.360 is not a productivity contest. It's a not a learning contest, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.200 and it's not an IQ test, it's a moment's thing. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.400 Relationships aren't machines. They happen in moments, and those moments 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.440 are questions. There's spaces that people are creating to say, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:55.839 why does this matter to you? What's your perfect day 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.200 look like? What's energized right now? That's where relationships grow. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.880 And that's what I saw these flourishing places do with 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.280 such virtuosic skill to say, we're going to carve out 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.559 these places where we're going to interact in this way 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.520 and form deep relationships and create meaning together. 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.079 I love those questions, and it's funny I think about 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.240 those times, like you know, I think about how much 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.319 I hate going to anything that resembles a networking event 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.720 or a conference or something like that. And I'm sure 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.800 listeners can relate. I'm sure anyone can relate. And I 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:30.079 think those questions of man their gold for just having 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.880 in your pocket to make the event a whole lot 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.000 more interesting, certainly for yourself, but probably for the other 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.120 people that you meet, because so much of the time 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.320 we're on the receiving end of such dull, uninspiring questions. 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.800 I know, I know it. We're not taught to ask 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.080 questions in that way. Like we're in school, we're usually 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:49.640 taught it's some more important to have an answer than 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.360 to have a great question. And yet it's those questions 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.239 that we end up. I don't know, they form relationships, 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.320 They formed that kind of the shape of our lives. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:02.800 To encounter a great question is such a powerful energy source. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.600 It's like great question is like an engine. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.839 Now. When I was reading the book, I was thinking 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.440 about it's kind of a goal I guess that I 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.480 have for myself this year, or a theme where I 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.880 was thinking about my friendship groups and none of my 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.800 friends actually live in the same suburb as me. And 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.040 for some reason, you know, I've just been really craving 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.439 local community and having that group of people locally, and 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.520 I think, you know, it doesn't help that my daughter 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.760 goes to a school that's a couple of suburbs away. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.920 And you know, I think there was so much inspiration 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.720 in Flourish, and you looked at a lot of different 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.520 communities that were indeed flourishing. I would love to know, like, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.680 what advice would you give me to help create that 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.680 sense of community or some kind of structure that I 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.280 could use to build a little local community for myself. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.480 You know, I guess a couple things I'd say right off. 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.360 The first is that it's not as hard as it looks. 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.160 It looks like it's very far away, right, But all 0:12:58.160 --> 0:12:59.679 the science and a lot of the case studies that 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.439 I would were all the stories not of some massive 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.000 new construction or massive new lift. They were like little 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:10.080 rechannelings of existing things. To have a small event with 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.679 the people around you, to create a small habit with 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.080 people who are already around you, whether that's a meal, 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.120 whether that's an interest to group. One of my favorite 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.600 stories in the book is from the Paris neighborhood where 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.520 everybody was disconnected and they put a table down the 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.439 middle of the street, and then they started to self 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.560 organize into interest groups. We're into hiking, and we're into biking, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.200 and we're into the museums, and we're into history. And 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.760 at first when they started that, they thought that people 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.440 were helplessly naive. They thought the organizers they called them 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.160 teddy bear kissers because it sounded so far off to 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.400 do something like this. But you fast forward a year 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.880 or so, in the group, the place feels like a village. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.720 So I guess the habit that helped me do that 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.560 a couple of things. One was like to be very 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.520 intentional about having a daily random encounter in my neighborhood, 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.480 like one encounter a day, just one conversation a day, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.679 that's it. Maybe it's at the checkout of the local stand, 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.040 maybe it's at the post office. And the second thing 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.720 was to pay attention to yellow doors. In the book 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.640 I write about yellow doors, it's from Columbia University psychologist 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.040 Lisa Miller. The idea is that we usually go through 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.120 life attuned to red doors that are closed like don't 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.920 go here, or green doors that are open, like go here, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.640 and life becomes infinitely more interesting when we start paying 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.720 attention to signals that are neither go nor stop, neither 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.760 red nor green, but that are a mixed signal, like 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.680 a chat with a coworker who you haven't really gotten 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.320 along with, or an invitation to a party that you 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.880 don't really want to go to, or an invitation to 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.080 try a new skill that you never were really good at. 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.560 The courage and curiosity and those are the qualities that 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.160 I always saw driving community curiosity. On the front end, 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.160 say I'm going to give that a tribe. And though 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.280 I don't really like it, and the courage to do that, 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.280 I can say it's changed my life in a huge way. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.920 Having you know, there's a whole group of new friends. 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.160 I was invited one day to go indoor climbing rate 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.160 of heights. I don't really like to climb, but that 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.760 I went, I yellow door in it. And now that's 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.040 a group that we go on traveling with. Our friends 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.760 are our families, are really good friends. We're playing music together. 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.480 It doesn't take much like if you can sort of 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.160 groupify the things you do alone. If you like to jog, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.720 find people a job with it. At every turn, try 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:22.480 to add people to what you're doing. My wife does 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.160 a thing whenever she's running an errand she has her 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.240 friends that she calls and says, does anyone want to 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.240 just come with me? I mean, I'm just going to 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:30.760 the store to get something. Who wants to come with me? 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.160 Do you need anything? The thing you would do alone 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.320 just make that sideways, reach just yellow door and bring 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.680 people along and then see where it leads. The other 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.280 thing I would say is that be prepared to be annoyed, 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.000 Like annoyance is the price of community. And I think 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.080 we're sold a lie in the culture now that everything 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.120 should be frictionless and happy all the time, that all 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.360 our friends should always be great to us, but no 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.760 community is really annoying at times. It's also transcendent, and 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.680 to sort of prepare for that annoyance and to humbly 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.440 realize that you're probably annoying too sometimes like I am, 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:05.840 like you are, like we all are, ends up being 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.360 a very liberating stance. 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.720 I did love the concept of yellow doors in your book, 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.600 and I want to know, Daniel, like, how do you 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.600 or have you become better at identifying yellow doors in 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:18.600 your life. 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:20.680 I'm still the same person, That's the thing. I'm like, 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.040 I haven't really changed. I'm still kind of grumpy and skeptical. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.480 And you know, if somebody says, oh, you should do this, 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.680 one of my first reactions to be a little opposition 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.160 to go like, man, I don't think so. I don't 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.000 think so. But it just gives you a little microsecond, 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.720 especially after you have a few of these experiences, to 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.360 just go, huh, I wonder if I'm wrong. Like I 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.160 have a story in my head that I'm not going 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.800 to like that, but I wonder if I'm wrong I 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.720 tell you one thing that really unlocked it for me 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:51.000 was understanding the difference between complicated things and complex things. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.360 Does that ring a bell? Like complicated and complex like 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.160 we normally think those are the same. We normally think, oh, 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.760 we use those as interchangeable, like it's complicated, it's complex. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.840 In fact it's not. And not to get super deueby here, 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.800 but this is almost like a systems theory truth about 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.800 the world. Complicated things come together the same way every 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.679 single time. If you're going to build this microphone, and 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.720 I give you all the parts and you put it together, 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.960 you'll get the microphone. Complex things are different every time. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.159 Complex things are alive, they change when you interact with them. 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.960 So the changes the difference is, is this problem more 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.399 like building this microphone or more like raising a teenager. 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.639 You can't have an instruction sheet. It's not a to B, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.159 two C to dfer teenager. It's complex, it's alive. And 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.479 so when you realize that a lot of times in 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.880 life we go under the illusion that our lives are complicated. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.440 We go into the usion that A goes to B 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:47.560 goes to cegos. If I go to the party, I 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.160 won't have a good time right, In fact, we're wrong. 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.840 Life is complex. You don't know you're in interaction with it. 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.639 It's complex. So when you understand that it's not a 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.800 straight line, that it's not always a to B two C. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.720 That in fact, when you're dealing with complex system the 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.680 best thing to do is to experiment your way into them, 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.240 like to try something to probe and see, oh that 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:12.080 yellow door. It didn't look good on the outside, but 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.720 actually once I got into it, I kind of enjoyed it, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.840 Like that's interesting. And in our life we hate to fail, right, 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:20.639 we hate to have that feeling of failure. But you 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.040 know what, relationships are exactly the same. You're trying to 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:29.440 grow something, you're trying to create something. So having conversations 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.080 that go really great and having conversations who go really 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:33.439 poorly teaches you things. 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.080 When we are back, we are going to get into 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.720 talking about building twenty a structure at MIT that accidentally 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.280 became one of the most inventive places in history, and 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.480 what the lesson there actually means for how leaders run 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.240 teams today. Daniel also is going to be tackling something 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:56.440 I hear constantly now, the pain of leading through relentless change. 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.920 AI included and his advice is not what you would expect. 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.159 And we are going to finish with one of the 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.359 most simple exercises I've come across in a long time, 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:10.320 one that just takes thirty seconds and can immediately reconnect 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:17.280 you to what actually matters. If you're looking for more 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.000 tips to improve the way you work can live. I 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.840 write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.480 that have helped me personally. You can sign up for 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:35.320 that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. One 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.000 of the stories that I really loved in the book 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:42.240 was you talk about building twenty at MIT, and one 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.919 of the concepts you explore is these speed launches that 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.360 they had as a ritual. I'm wondering if you could 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.760 tell me, tell me more about that, because I just 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.800 think there's so much inspiration there for workplaces to take 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:55.240 from that. 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.080