1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: Here's something I've been thinking about. Most of us are 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: walking around with stories worth telling from our own lives 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: and their own experiences, and we talk ourselves out of 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: sharing them. Sometimes we think no one will care about that, 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: that's just my story. But Daniel Coyle has spent his 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: career proving that instinct wrong. Daniel is the best selling 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: author of The Talent Code and The Culture Code, and 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: his new book Flourish is probably what are the most 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: dogg eared books I've read in a while. In this conversation, 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: we get into how he finds and constructs stories that 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: pull people in. We also get into the specific questions 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: that create real connection, ones you can pull out the 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: next time you're stuck in a sea of small talk. 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: And he also gives me a concrete structure for building 15 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: local community when you're craving something more than surface level friendships. 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 17 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: and strategies. 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: For optimizing your date. 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor, Amantha Imber Daniel. When I sat 20 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: down to read your book, I feel like often with 21 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: business books, you kind of go okay, I can kind 22 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: of skim through the stories, and I'm just going to 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: get to, you know, the practical stuff here. But I 24 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: was so sucked in by your storytelling, as I have 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: been with all your books, but particularly in Flourish, and 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: I actually want to start with asking how do you 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: find such great stories to tell? And then my second 28 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: part is how do you actually construct them in a 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: way that really just sucks in the reader like it 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: certainly did for me. 31 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: Ah, those are good questions. Thank you and thanks for 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: having me. I'm delighted to be here with you, And 33 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: what a good way to start. I guess I pay 34 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: attention to my own reaction to story. Like certain stories 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: and they always end up being mysteries, but they contain 36 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: a couple of ingredients. The first is a deep, deep mystery. 37 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 2: They're getting it something that really has call to us 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: some deep question. Why do some groups combine in ways 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: that seem allst magical and other groups fall apart? And 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: those and I have a sucker like everybody for a 41 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 2: good underdog story are a good unlikely story. So you 42 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: kind of start with some structure where there's some surprise emerging. 43 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: In the middle of that surprise is some mystery that 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 2: is not abstract but is really just like relatable some mystery. 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: That's the best mysteries are the ones that are right 46 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: in front of your nose, Like you stir your cream 47 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: into your coffee and you see a pattern. It's like, 48 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 2: why is it like that and not like some other way? 49 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: Or why was Thanksgiving dinner so wonderful this year that 50 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: it wasn't last year? Some kind of basic thing right there. 51 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 2: And then the third thing I look for is access, 52 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: Like I need to be able to have access to 53 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: the people who are in this story. I can find 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 2: out what really happened when those elements are there. When 55 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: I'm responding, I find myself I'm leaning into this. Why 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: am I leaning into it? I have to ask that? 57 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: And then is that a really a one time thing? 58 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: Or is that something that is a present in everybody's life? 59 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: Is everyone struggling with this issue? So every story has 60 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: got somebody you're rooting for, some big obstacle on some transformation. 61 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 2: Those three elements, and if the person we're rooting for 62 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: is relatable, if the obstacle is also kind of mysterious 63 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: and relatable, and the transformation is real, that's something to explore. 64 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: But then often some of the stories don't work out. 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: I'd hate to show you my notebooks for this book. 66 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: I mean, the book is maybe an inch thick, but 67 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: I've got several feet of notebooks with stories that like, oh, 68 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: that one doesn't quite fit, or that one's too much 69 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: like this one. 70 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: I recently had a guest on that talked about some 71 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: research from LinkedIn that said that storytelling is one of 72 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: the five most important skills that people are going to 73 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: need for the next few years. And you share a 74 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: lot of stories from your own life in the book, 75 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering, how do you mind your own life 76 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: for stories? Like are you constantly just recording things that 77 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: happen in your day? What's your process around that? 78 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: It starts, I think with a process of reflection. There's 79 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: such power in zooming out, Amantha. There's such power in 80 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: sort of having a regular reflective practice, but also a 81 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: practice that might let you look further than just the 82 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 2: day that just passed to the weeks that just passed. 83 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: And at some point in this for some reason, I 84 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: found myself drawing on a piece of paper like the 85 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: shape of my life, and I ended up drawing you know, 86 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: something that was a little bit like that, like, and 87 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: it just got me thinking, is that that exercise got 88 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: me thinking why did I end up here? So again 89 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: we end up in that question of finding mysteries that 90 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: don't really have a clear answer, and then using that 91 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: energy of that question and that mystery, Well, I was 92 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: going to be a doctor. How did I end up 93 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: being a writer? And so the surreality of that and 94 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: the mystery of that is what got me to think 95 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: about it. So that's one piece of it, and the 96 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: other piece of it is kind of a courage thing. 97 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: There's a reflexive response. We all have to say, oh, 98 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: that's just my story. Nobody will care about that, you know, 99 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: we all sort of feel and I feel that in 100 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: a big way. Like at the end of this book, 101 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 2: I tell a story about friendships that came about as 102 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: a result of some of the things that I learned 103 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: through the process of writing this book. You know, every 104 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: book changes you, and this book changed me. And so 105 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: I really resisted that for a long time. I thought, Oh, 106 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: that's just my story. Those are just my friends. That's 107 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: not a big deal, right, We're kind of it's imposter syndrome, 108 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: you could call it. That we don't tend to look 109 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 2: at our own lives the way other people would and 110 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: to actually get yourself in a headspace where you can 111 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: zoom out and say, wait a minute, that really is 112 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: I'm not just sort of going down my belly button 113 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: to sort of celebrate something. There really is something there. 114 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: There's something that other people could relate to about being 115 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: in midlife and finding a new group of friendships. And 116 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: so I guess my process was sort of like coming 117 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: to grips with it myself, realizing there's something there, there's 118 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: something worth telling, there's something universal about my experience, and 119 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 2: then kind of testing it out like verbally, like I think, 120 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: you don't know what's in a good story until you 121 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: actually have to put it in the air and tell 122 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: it to someone. It can look good in your journal, 123 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: it can look really pretty and transformative, but actually go 124 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: tell someone and see how they respond. Tell it, Tell 125 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: it again, see what is resonating. Stories are kind of 126 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: these beautiful little machines, and they function on mystery and 127 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: on tension, and locating those moments will help you tell 128 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: the story better and your relationship with the story will change. 129 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: You'll start out thinking, oh, this is a story about friendship, 130 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: and you'll realize that it's about a story about maybe 131 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: truth or a story about fear. 132 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: So how then do you construct a story to I 133 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: guess optimize the tension and mystery and those elements. 134 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: I think it was Aristotle who talked about it. For first, 135 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 2: you begin at a question. You try to begin at 136 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: some kind of juncture where there's a mystery. And it's 137 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: like all movies, this is you. You begin at some moment, 138 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: some moment where things are coming together, find that moment, 139 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: and then back off and then show a even bigger mystery, right, 140 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: And then so you've got two things happening at once. 141 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: You've got what's going to happen at this moment, but 142 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: then you've got that's embedded in some larger story. Every 143 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: story is a little bit different, but they all have 144 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: that same internal structure of saying, here's a protagonist, here's 145 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: an obstacle, and here's a transformation. And your last tool 146 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: that you have is your sand paper to take away 147 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: everything that's not essential. So there's a temptation when we're 148 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 2: telling a story to include everything, to include extras, to 149 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: talk about this, but really, in the end you want 150 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: to be very kind of ruthless and just put in 151 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: the parts of the machine that are going to advance 152 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: your story. Figure out what you're responding to. Are you 153 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: responding to the fear in the story? Are you respire, 154 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: you're rooting for someone in the story. What are you 155 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: responding to? Name that and that will help you tell 156 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: it too. You know, if you want to get good 157 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: to telling a story, the world has got a lot 158 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: of places for you to go to school. Find your 159 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: ten favorite stories and outline them and figure out what 160 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: makes them tick and reduce them to bullet points, and 161 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: then read it and then try to write it yourself 162 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: by memory as much as you can put yourself in 163 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: a position of constructing the stories you love. I know 164 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: some writers that will just take their favorite passages and 165 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: just type them, and it sounds kind of crazy and 166 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: woo woo. But to actually take your favorite passage and 167 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: then type it and slow it down and write it, 168 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: it gives you a feeling for how the story's moving 169 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: and where the camera's going, and where the obstacle is 170 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: and where your mind. 171 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Is I reckon. The same could be said of asking 172 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: good questions. And something that struck me about Flourish is 173 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: that there were so many brilliant, reflective questions for readers 174 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: to learn about and getting on like I just I 175 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: made so many marks and underlinings and doggie as when 176 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: I was reading Flourish. I would love to know which 177 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: of the questions stayed with you. 178 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: It's been a slow journey. Like a lot of people, 179 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: I have a lot of belief in answers and what 180 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: this book taught me, I think the same as you. 181 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: It's like, it's not about the answers, especially in an 182 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: age when answers are like as cheap as tap water. 183 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: It's like the question, like a great question, a question 184 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: that I think about a lot, is what does your 185 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: perfect day look like? I find myself thinking about that 186 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: a lot. My wife and I are newly empty nesters, 187 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: so we have got this extra time in our schedule, 188 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: and that question itself just inspires such deep thought and 189 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: collaboration around it. You know, the question sends us out 190 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: on this journey. And there's one that someone asked in 191 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: the book, which was what would someone need to know 192 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: about you in order to be your best friend? That's 193 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 2: got me thinking too about like what do I really value? 194 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: What would I say? The question I end up using 195 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: the most is one that I learned through the book, 196 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: which is what's energizing you right now. Questions like that 197 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: create this. You know, there's that phrase that you know, 198 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: we've all heard a lot creating space, like we're going 199 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: to create space. I never used to like that phrase, Amantha. 200 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 2: I always felt kind of woo woo, And as a 201 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 2: science journalist, I'm like, oh, come on, you're not creating space. 202 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: Actually I was totally wrong. Creating space is so real 203 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: and what does that is a great question. So when 204 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: I say what's energizing you right now, I'm really giving 205 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: you this zone that you can play in, that you 206 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: can share if you like, you can not share if 207 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: you want. But it's creating the space for us to 208 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 2: have a different kind of encounter than if I said 209 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: what are you working on right now? Or if I 210 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: said here's what I'm doing. What's made me realize what 211 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: a precious resource and what a powerful tool those small, 212 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: deep questions are. And the last one that I found 213 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: myself using is why does this matter to you? If 214 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: you can carve out these little islands, these little places 215 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: to stand with other people to ask, why does that 216 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 2: matter to you that relationships happen in those moments? Life 217 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: is not a productivity contest. It's a not a learning contest, 218 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: and it's not an IQ test, it's a moment's thing. 219 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: Relationships aren't machines. They happen in moments, and those moments 220 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: are questions. There's spaces that people are creating to say, 221 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 2: why does this matter to you? What's your perfect day 222 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: look like? What's energized right now? That's where relationships grow. 223 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: And that's what I saw these flourishing places do with 224 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: such virtuosic skill to say, we're going to carve out 225 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 2: these places where we're going to interact in this way 226 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: and form deep relationships and create meaning together. 227 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: I love those questions, and it's funny I think about 228 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: those times, like you know, I think about how much 229 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: I hate going to anything that resembles a networking event 230 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: or a conference or something like that. And I'm sure 231 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: listeners can relate. I'm sure anyone can relate. And I 232 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: think those questions of man their gold for just having 233 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: in your pocket to make the event a whole lot 234 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: more interesting, certainly for yourself, but probably for the other 235 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: people that you meet, because so much of the time 236 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: we're on the receiving end of such dull, uninspiring questions. 237 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: I know, I know it. We're not taught to ask 238 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: questions in that way. Like we're in school, we're usually 239 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: taught it's some more important to have an answer than 240 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: to have a great question. And yet it's those questions 241 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,239 Speaker 2: that we end up. I don't know, they form relationships, 242 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: They formed that kind of the shape of our lives. 243 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: To encounter a great question is such a powerful energy source. 244 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: It's like great question is like an engine. 245 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: Now. When I was reading the book, I was thinking 246 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: about it's kind of a goal I guess that I 247 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: have for myself this year, or a theme where I 248 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: was thinking about my friendship groups and none of my 249 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: friends actually live in the same suburb as me. And 250 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: for some reason, you know, I've just been really craving 251 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: local community and having that group of people locally, and 252 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it doesn't help that my daughter 253 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: goes to a school that's a couple of suburbs away. 254 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: And you know, I think there was so much inspiration 255 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: in Flourish, and you looked at a lot of different 256 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: communities that were indeed flourishing. I would love to know, like, 257 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: what advice would you give me to help create that 258 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: sense of community or some kind of structure that I 259 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: could use to build a little local community for myself. 260 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: You know, I guess a couple things I'd say right off. 261 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: The first is that it's not as hard as it looks. 262 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: It looks like it's very far away, right, But all 263 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: the science and a lot of the case studies that 264 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 2: I would were all the stories not of some massive 265 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: new construction or massive new lift. They were like little 266 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: rechannelings of existing things. To have a small event with 267 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 2: the people around you, to create a small habit with 268 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 2: people who are already around you, whether that's a meal, 269 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: whether that's an interest to group. One of my favorite 270 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: stories in the book is from the Paris neighborhood where 271 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: everybody was disconnected and they put a table down the 272 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 2: middle of the street, and then they started to self 273 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: organize into interest groups. We're into hiking, and we're into biking, 274 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: and we're into the museums, and we're into history. And 275 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: at first when they started that, they thought that people 276 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: were helplessly naive. They thought the organizers they called them 277 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: teddy bear kissers because it sounded so far off to 278 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: do something like this. But you fast forward a year 279 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: or so, in the group, the place feels like a village. 280 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: So I guess the habit that helped me do that 281 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: a couple of things. One was like to be very 282 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: intentional about having a daily random encounter in my neighborhood, 283 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: like one encounter a day, just one conversation a day, 284 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 2: that's it. Maybe it's at the checkout of the local stand, 285 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: maybe it's at the post office. And the second thing 286 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: was to pay attention to yellow doors. In the book 287 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: I write about yellow doors, it's from Columbia University psychologist 288 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: Lisa Miller. The idea is that we usually go through 289 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: life attuned to red doors that are closed like don't 290 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: go here, or green doors that are open, like go here, 291 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: and life becomes infinitely more interesting when we start paying 292 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: attention to signals that are neither go nor stop, neither 293 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: red nor green, but that are a mixed signal, like 294 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: a chat with a coworker who you haven't really gotten 295 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: along with, or an invitation to a party that you 296 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: don't really want to go to, or an invitation to 297 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: try a new skill that you never were really good at. 298 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: The courage and curiosity and those are the qualities that 299 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: I always saw driving community curiosity. On the front end, 300 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: say I'm going to give that a tribe. And though 301 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: I don't really like it, and the courage to do that, 302 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: I can say it's changed my life in a huge way. 303 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: Having you know, there's a whole group of new friends. 304 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: I was invited one day to go indoor climbing rate 305 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: of heights. I don't really like to climb, but that 306 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: I went, I yellow door in it. And now that's 307 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: a group that we go on traveling with. Our friends 308 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: are our families, are really good friends. We're playing music together. 309 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: It doesn't take much like if you can sort of 310 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: groupify the things you do alone. If you like to jog, 311 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: find people a job with it. At every turn, try 312 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: to add people to what you're doing. My wife does 313 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: a thing whenever she's running an errand she has her 314 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: friends that she calls and says, does anyone want to 315 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: just come with me? I mean, I'm just going to 316 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: the store to get something. Who wants to come with me? 317 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: Do you need anything? The thing you would do alone 318 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: just make that sideways, reach just yellow door and bring 319 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: people along and then see where it leads. The other 320 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: thing I would say is that be prepared to be annoyed, 321 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: Like annoyance is the price of community. And I think 322 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: we're sold a lie in the culture now that everything 323 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: should be frictionless and happy all the time, that all 324 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: our friends should always be great to us, but no 325 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: community is really annoying at times. It's also transcendent, and 326 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: to sort of prepare for that annoyance and to humbly 327 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: realize that you're probably annoying too sometimes like I am, 328 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: like you are, like we all are, ends up being 329 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: a very liberating stance. 330 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: I did love the concept of yellow doors in your book, 331 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: and I want to know, Daniel, like, how do you 332 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: or have you become better at identifying yellow doors in 333 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: your life. 334 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm still the same person, That's the thing. I'm like, 335 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: I haven't really changed. I'm still kind of grumpy and skeptical. 336 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: And you know, if somebody says, oh, you should do this, 337 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: one of my first reactions to be a little opposition 338 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: to go like, man, I don't think so. I don't 339 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: think so. But it just gives you a little microsecond, 340 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: especially after you have a few of these experiences, to 341 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: just go, huh, I wonder if I'm wrong. Like I 342 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: have a story in my head that I'm not going 343 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: to like that, but I wonder if I'm wrong I 344 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: tell you one thing that really unlocked it for me 345 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: was understanding the difference between complicated things and complex things. 346 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: Does that ring a bell? Like complicated and complex like 347 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 2: we normally think those are the same. We normally think, oh, 348 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: we use those as interchangeable, like it's complicated, it's complex. 349 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: In fact it's not. And not to get super deueby here, 350 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: but this is almost like a systems theory truth about 351 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: the world. Complicated things come together the same way every 352 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 2: single time. If you're going to build this microphone, and 353 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: I give you all the parts and you put it together, 354 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: you'll get the microphone. Complex things are different every time. 355 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 2: Complex things are alive, they change when you interact with them. 356 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: So the changes the difference is, is this problem more 357 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 2: like building this microphone or more like raising a teenager. 358 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: You can't have an instruction sheet. It's not a to B, 359 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: two C to dfer teenager. It's complex, it's alive. And 360 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 2: so when you realize that a lot of times in 361 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 2: life we go under the illusion that our lives are complicated. 362 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: We go into the usion that A goes to B 363 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: goes to cegos. If I go to the party, I 364 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: won't have a good time right, In fact, we're wrong. 365 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: Life is complex. You don't know you're in interaction with it. 366 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: It's complex. So when you understand that it's not a 367 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: straight line, that it's not always a to B two C. 368 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: That in fact, when you're dealing with complex system the 369 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: best thing to do is to experiment your way into them, 370 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: like to try something to probe and see, oh that 371 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: yellow door. It didn't look good on the outside, but 372 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: actually once I got into it, I kind of enjoyed it, 373 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: Like that's interesting. And in our life we hate to fail, right, 374 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: we hate to have that feeling of failure. But you 375 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: know what, relationships are exactly the same. You're trying to 376 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 2: grow something, you're trying to create something. So having conversations 377 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: that go really great and having conversations who go really 378 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 2: poorly teaches you things. 379 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: When we are back, we are going to get into 380 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: talking about building twenty a structure at MIT that accidentally 381 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: became one of the most inventive places in history, and 382 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: what the lesson there actually means for how leaders run 383 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: teams today. Daniel also is going to be tackling something 384 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: I hear constantly now, the pain of leading through relentless change. 385 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: AI included and his advice is not what you would expect. 386 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: And we are going to finish with one of the 387 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: most simple exercises I've come across in a long time, 388 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: one that just takes thirty seconds and can immediately reconnect 389 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: you to what actually matters. If you're looking for more 390 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: tips to improve the way you work can live. I 391 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered 392 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: that have helped me personally. You can sign up for 393 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. One 394 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: of the stories that I really loved in the book 395 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: was you talk about building twenty at MIT, and one 396 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: of the concepts you explore is these speed launches that 397 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: they had as a ritual. I'm wondering if you could 398 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: tell me, tell me more about that, because I just 399 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: think there's so much inspiration there for workplaces to take 400 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: from that. 401 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: Oh, that place is incredible. It was a building that 402 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: was built by accident. They were not by accent entirely, 403 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: but inhabited by accident. It was built to build the 404 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: US radar system for World War Two. It was built 405 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: in almost in just a matter of weeks, and when 406 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 2: the war effort was over. It was kind of left alone, 407 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 2: and different groups from a nearby college MIT sort of 408 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: colonized this building, almost like a coral reef, groups from 409 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: all sorts of different disciplines, and all of a sudden, 410 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: these new inventions started coming out of this building. Some 411 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 2: of the first video games, some of the first sound works, 412 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: bows electronics came out of there. And they had so 413 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: much agency in this building. That's the thing in the 414 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: book I call it the rule of the Beautiful mess. 415 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: We tend to go through life thinking we want to 416 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 2: have things tightly organized, sort of complicated, if you might 417 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: put it that way. We want to have the lunch 418 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 2: room over here, and we want to have the lunch 419 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: hours right here. And what these people did is if 420 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 2: they wanted more room in their laboratory, they took out 421 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 2: a saw and caught a hole in the wall. And 422 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 2: they didn't have to call engineering or anything. They did 423 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: whatever they wanted. When it came to their lunch room, 424 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: they had cut a hole in the wall too, and 425 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: they had people making sandwiches on one side, and they 426 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: would hand the sandwich out through the hole in the 427 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 2: wall and they would gather in the hallway to eat it, 428 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 2: and then they would have these impromptu sort of lecture 429 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 2: lunches where people would share what they were working on, 430 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: whether it was from sociology or from electrical engineering. This 431 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 2: incredibly fertile cross pollination that happened, and it happened because 432 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: they self organized. It happened because they had agency as 433 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: human beings. We've constructed a world that doesn't have as 434 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: much agency as would be ideal. I think when you 435 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 2: give people that space so that they can control what 436 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: they're making, so that they can have clear autonomy over 437 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: what they're working on. When you talk about flourishing, what 438 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: you're talking about is whole human beings coming together and saying, Hey, 439 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: what do you want to do? What do you want 440 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 2: to do? And that's what community is, when peer groups 441 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: decide to make their world better. I don't know why 442 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: I've got me thinking about this right now, but one 443 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: of the things that I remember most about having two 444 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 2: brothers and now being the parent to four daughters are 445 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: those days when they decide to build a fort in 446 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: their room. Does that happen in Australia where kids decide 447 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: we're going to build a fort, right? I think that's 448 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: like the ultimate, like little rehearsal for community. Right, they 449 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: already have beds to sleep in. They don't need beds. 450 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 2: But the idea that I'm going to put a blanket here, 451 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: and I'm going to put pillows here, and we're going 452 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: to create this world together. The energy that kids get 453 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: from that is through the roof. It's the most fun 454 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: thing they do. We built a fort. We built a fort, 455 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 2: and that's the same energy that building twenty had. We 456 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 2: built a fort. We built this. This is ours. We're 457 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: going to teach each other to do things. We're not 458 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 2: at the university. We'ren't building twenty. That is ours. And 459 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: so that is such a precious and I think rare thing. 460 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: And that's what you have in all the places that 461 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: I visited, this sense of real ownership, real agency, and 462 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 2: this is probably the key point leaders who are willing 463 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: and who encouraged that kind of behavior. 464 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: There was something you wrote in I think I was 465 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: in the context of the rule of surprise, and you 466 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: write that change often happens slowly, then in a surprising bloom. 467 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: And I reflected on that because I found that so interesting. 468 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of counter to how we think 469 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: about change. And I thought that really rings true to me, Like, 470 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, my company's culture went through a 471 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: really bad time and then you know, there was sort 472 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: of some changes in the combination of the people and 473 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: the team, and then it's like it just sprung back 474 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: within weeks in twenty twenty five. And I'd love you 475 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: to explain a bit more about like what that means 476 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: and why why does you know it happened slowly then 477 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: bang it like it blooms. 478 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 2: No, No, it's true, isn't it. Think about you know, 479 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: when you think about our own lives, I think we 480 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: start to recognize that pattern, whether we're talking about physical 481 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 2: fitness or new habits or adopting change. I think it's 482 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: because we are naturally built to sort of resist change, 483 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: especially in social situations. It is risky, it's deeply risky 484 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 2: to change, especially when things are even average right, because 485 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: we're taking a risk to make that change, and so 486 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 2: we almost have to convince ourselves by living it. I 487 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: forget who said this, but life is lived forward, but 488 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: it must be understood backwards. We're living through life, but 489 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: we're constantly sort of renarrating our past to say, oh, 490 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: this is why this is happening. This is why this 491 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: is happening. So I think that's partly true too, that 492 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: we're our storytelling is just catching up to our reality. 493 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: When we say, oh, it happened all at once, Well, 494 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: you know, maybe it didn't. Maybe it didn't, but it 495 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: certainly feels that way. It certainly feels that way. The 496 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: flywheel is an example that I hear a lot right 497 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: when it takes a lot of energy to start it spinning, 498 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: and it takes time, but once it starts spinning, a 499 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: flywheel has got a ton of energy to keep going. 500 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 2: So you feel that energy at the end, almost like 501 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: it's happening magically, but it's not. You put in all 502 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 2: the energy in the front to make it change. You 503 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: put that in. So it is a tribute to how 504 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: complex the world is, I think, because that's a shape 505 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: of complexity. If the world was complicated, you could just go, 506 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: well A went to B, goes to C, gooes to D, 507 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 2: and now we have change. Right, it's easy. We just 508 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: have to put it together the pieces. But it's a 509 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: living thing. So because it's so complex, complexity takes a 510 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: little time. But that's also what makes it very very powerful. 511 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: That's also what makes it very I don't know, so 512 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: beautiful when it does come together like that, because when 513 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 2: you have that flywheel type energy, then you can grow 514 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: even more things. It is funny, you know, some days 515 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 2: you look out and it's the same thing we see 516 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: in nature. Spring's never going to come this year. It's 517 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 2: been so snowy here in America, Springs never going to come. 518 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: But you know what, in like three weeks, the daffodils 519 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: are going to be blooming and they're going to come out. 520 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: They're going to astonish us all. 521 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: I'd love to know how that might apply to advice 522 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: the leaders. I feel like every week I am speaking 523 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: to different leaders that are talking about, you know, change fatigue, 524 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: and particularly the change that ali transformations are having on workplaces. 525 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: And you know, with this knowledge that change happens slowly 526 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: then in a surprising bloom, Like, what's the advice there 527 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: for leaders that feel like they are stuck in a 528 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: world of pain because of change that's going on. 529 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: Think like a gardener, I would say, you know a 530 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: lot of leaders like to think like I certainly the 531 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: captain of the ship, you know, like I'm the one 532 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: who decides the direction. That's how we understand leader. I 533 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: think we kind of misunderstand leader in that way. Most 534 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: organizations are not actually work like that. What do gardeners 535 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: think about They think about creating space for things to happen, 536 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 2: planting seeds and then nurturing those changes in small ways. 537 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: And gardeners also have to be incredibly patient, so being 538 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: that that level of patience is not an extra, that's 539 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: absolutely at the core. The skill set that I've seen 540 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: work very effectively in this case is is locating culture champions, 541 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: locating champions of that change and really helping them broker 542 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: those ideas, selling those ideas with an house, franchising those 543 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: idea in house, identifying people who you feel like ken 544 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: champion those changes, and then when you start to see 545 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: something bloom. The good leaders I've seen are really good 546 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: at radiating their delight, their happiness, broadcasting spotlighting that story. 547 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: At Pixar, they have a different team take on each movie, 548 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 2: and the head of Pixar is named ed Catmill, and 549 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 2: he would always watch with very worriedly because he's a 550 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: guy who tends to worry. Is the team getting it? 551 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 2: Is the team coming together? That was his question, because 552 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 2: he knows you can give a good idea to a 553 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: bad team and you'll get a bad movie. You can 554 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 2: give a bad idea to a good team and you 555 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: get a good movie. So is the team coming together? 556 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: So he'd be watching them, he'd be very, very worried. 557 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: And there was one movie they were doing. I forget 558 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 2: which one it was. It was maybe it was something 559 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: about camping, and he saw that the team. He was 560 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: really worried about team. But then he saw the team 561 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: had set up a tent on Pixar's lawn and they 562 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: were camping together, and then he saw it. Then that 563 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: was it. He was waiting for that to happen. So 564 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: he couldn't make it happen. He couldn't order them to 565 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: go do that, he couldn't coerce them. But what he 566 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: could do is create space, you might say, asking questions, 567 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: trying to get the team to navigate itself. And another 568 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: tool that is useful to do that is a team 569 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: intent process. To have a team intent process to make 570 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: sure you as a leader. You can't be the one 571 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 2: to say this is what I want your team to do, 572 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: but you can't say, hey, you guys should get together 573 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 2: and talk about three things. Talk about what your desired 574 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: end state is. Where do you want to go. What's 575 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: this going to look like in six months? You guys 576 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: decide what your desired end state is. How do you 577 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 2: want to work together? I mean, talk about how you 578 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: want to work together, that's the second thing, and then 579 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 2: have regular meetings along the way to see how that's going. 580 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: Are you still being energized by this? And then another 581 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: thing that they could talk about was what do we 582 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: not want to do? Let's name really clearly what we 583 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: would call our via negativa, like the place we don't 584 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 2: want to go right, do a pre moor in them. 585 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: If this goes horribly, If this goes absolutely horribly, what happened? 586 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: That's a good question to ask. So getting the team 587 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: to ask those questions can be really powerful. And the 588 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: reason those questions are powerful is that what you're trying 589 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: to do as a leader is establish three things. Establish 590 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: a really clear horizon, establish very clear guardrails, and then 591 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: you want a spark agency those three things, and then 592 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: let the team self navigate. 593 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: I want to finish with actually where your book starts, 594 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: which is talking about awakening cues, which I love that 595 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: part of the book. Can you share what an awakening 596 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: queue is? 597 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: It's an awakening to meaning it's we go through life 598 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: typically just kind of focused on what's in front of 599 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: us and doing our day and staying in the moment 600 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: in what I would say task awareness, where we're sort 601 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 2: of working on that task Awakening queues are moments where 602 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: we zoom way out and we see meaning, we see 603 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: what matters, and they happen when you sort of I 604 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: would say that the idea of mattering, where you see 605 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 2: the inherent value in the people across from you and 606 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: the inherent value of the project you're involved with. So 607 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 2: there's sort of these moments of living into questions. They 608 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: arrive as questions awaken Accues are all questions. I'll give 609 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: you an example of one that I thought was really 610 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: really powerful. We all think that middle school is famously difficult. 611 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: Everybody knows middle school is a nightmare no matter what 612 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: country you're in. But there was an experimenter who had 613 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: the idea, does it have to be this way? And 614 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: so he gave every middle schooler a letter from a 615 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: kid who had just graduated that same grade. So they're 616 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 2: in the first day of middle school. You and in 617 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: our first day middle school. We both get a letter 618 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: from someone who just graduated middle school. And the letter 619 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: has a couple of quick themes. It says, sixth grade 620 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: is really hard, and everyone gets through it, and teachers 621 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: are there to help you. That's it. They just get 622 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: that little thing. And the kids who got that little 623 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 2: letter outperformed kids who got a whole module of social 624 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 2: emotional learning, that little signal of belonging, that little signal 625 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 2: of connection of being seen and seeing the larger project 626 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: of zooming out, an awakening attention and creating meaningful relationships. 627 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: That's what awakening queues do. They activate and awaken meaningful relationships. 628 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: I love that study. I've actually written about that study myself, 629 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: but yes, it was nice to be reminded of it 630 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: in your book. I'd love to know, like for listeners 631 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: that you know, thinking, well, that all sounds really good, 632 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: but like, what is one thing I can do today 633 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: to kind of to have that zooming out moment and 634 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: you know, to tap into that sense of really mattering. 635 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: What are one or two simple things that people could 636 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: do today? 637 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: Well, you could do your council exercise. This is one 638 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: of my favorite ones from Lisa Miller again at Columbia, 639 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: where it's very simple. He just takes thirty seconds. But 640 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: you close your eyes and you picture a wooden table, 641 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: and you picture the people on that table who have 642 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: your best interest in mind, who truly are on your side, 643 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: people living or deceased in your life, and you picture 644 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: them taking a seat there, and you take your time 645 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: picture them, and then you ask them if they love you. 646 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: Then you come and take a seat at the table, 647 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: and then you ask them what do I need to 648 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: know right now about the path? About my path? What 649 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: is important for me to know right now? And it's 650 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: just like a little grounding exercise. Again, I'm not wou 651 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: wu person at all, But when you actually take your 652 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 2: time and do that picture, figure out who's at your table, 653 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: Who shows up there? Who surprisingly shows up there? When 654 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: I did it, I had some My little league baseball 655 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: coach showed up for some reason. Who shows up there? 656 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 2: These are the people that are with you all the time, 657 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: and they're your counsel and you can lean on them 658 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: if you need to. You can ask them those questions 659 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: they're around. Another thing I would encourage people to do 660 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: is to just ask yourself these litmus test questions, who 661 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,479 Speaker 2: do you feel most alive with? And the second question 662 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: is what are you growing with other people? What are 663 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: you growing together? What project? What thing? What are you growing? 664 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 2: Those questions can be a guide. And a third thing 665 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: I would say is think about making a bit of 666 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: an energy calendar, Like take the last week and write 667 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: down the times where you felt most alive, most activated 668 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: by meaning most connected to something. And a good way 669 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: to think of it is where did you feel like 670 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: you disappeared, where you kind of disappear into your task, 671 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: disappear into your flow. Where did that happen for you? 672 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: Locate those points and that's kind of your map, like 673 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: that will teach you something important. The thing about all 674 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: of this is in a world where so often we're 675 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: given these three steps, this four recipes, I mean, there's 676 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: no sort of nice, neat perfect recipe because it really 677 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 2: depends on you. It really depends on your ability to 678 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 2: sort of sense where you're at, to think deeply about 679 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: your values, to think about where you're headed, to think 680 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: about the people in your life, and to carve out 681 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 2: space for these kind of grounding pauses that let you 682 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 2: see yourself and your life more clearly. 683 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: I love that, Daniel, Thank you so much for joining 684 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: me on how I work. I've been such a fan 685 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: of your books for many years, and so it's just 686 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: been such a joy to have this conversation. Thank you 687 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: for putting so much great work into the world. 688 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. This has been a total delight. 689 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 2: I really appreciate what you're doing. 690 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: So one of the things that's stuck with me from 691 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: this conversation is that annoyance is the price of community. 692 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: Like I saw this idea that the right friendship should 693 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: be frictionless, but every real community is irritating sometimes, and 694 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: expecting that and even welcoming that is actually I think, 695 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: what let's you stay in it long enough for something 696 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: meaningful to grow. Now, if you're looking for one thing 697 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: to try this week, I highly recommend Daniel's yellow door idea. 698 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: So the next time you get an invitation you'd normally decline, 699 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: just pause for a second and ask whether your no 700 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: is a real no or just to have it. I 701 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: love that Daniel went indoor climbing despite being afraid of heights, 702 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: and that those people are now some of his closest friends. Now, 703 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: if you're looking for more inspiration, maybe about human connection, 704 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: I highly recommend going back and checking out my interview 705 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,439 Speaker 1: with Lael Stone. There is so much good stuff there 706 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: about how to build human connection, and there is a 707 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: link to that in the show notes. If you like 708 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: today's show, make sure you get follow on your podcast 709 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I 710 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, 711 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: part of the Coulan nation.