1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: I don't like mingling. I hate mingling. I hate the 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: pressure of it. But I love interviewing. I love interviewing people. 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: I love asking questions and shutting up. So if I 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: have to go to a couple of parties or meet 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: and greets and I have to do a fair bit 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: of that in my job, I just deliberately change my 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: view of it from mingling, which I hate, to interviewing, 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: and I'll just pick. If there's twenty people there, I'll 9 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: pick three of them. I'll pick them out almost before 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: I go in. I'll pick them out, and I'll deliberately 11 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: interview them. Take twenty minutes to talk to that person, 12 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: twenty minutes talk to that person, twenty minutes to talk 13 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: to that person, and then leave. And so I've sort 14 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: of used a strength to mitigate a weakness. 15 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of Innovation Consultancy Inventing, and I'm 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. My 20 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: guest today is Marcus Buckingham Marcus is the author of 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: a stack of best selling books, including First, Break All 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: the Rules, Now, Discover Your Strengths, The One Thing You 23 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 2: Need to Know, and stand Out, to name just a few. 24 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: His latest book, Nine Lives About Work, a freethinking leader's 25 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: guide to the real World, published by Harvard Business Publishing, 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: takes an in depth look at the lies that pervade 27 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: our workplaces and the core truths that help us change 28 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: it for the better. Marcus has appeared on a bunch 29 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: of different media, ranging from Larry King Live to The 30 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: Today Show and The Oprah Winfrey Show, and now leads 31 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: People and Performance research at the ADP Research Institute and 32 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 2: remains the CEO of the Marcus Buckingham Company. I was 33 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: keen to get Marcus on the show. Is here someone 34 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: who challenges the status quo of how organizations and people operate, 35 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: and I was really keen to see how he had 36 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: applied his own advice in his own life. I think 37 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: that there are some really practical takeaways from this interview, 38 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: including four questions that Marcus asks himself every single week, 39 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: which I thought were very useful. So on that note, 40 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: over to Marcus to hear about how he works Marcus, 41 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 2: welcome to the. 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: Show, My pleasure, thank you for having me. 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: I want to start with asking about any daily or 44 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: weekly rituals that you have in your life that you 45 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: find your day or week up for success. 46 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: Well, daily, rich was I do a weekly check in 47 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 1: with myself where every week, and everybody in the company 48 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: does this too. But our year is fifty two little sprints. 49 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: And it's one of those weird things about human beings 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: that no matter which society you look at, wherever you go, 51 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: all the way through time, humans have had a seven 52 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: day week. And it wasn't a function of anything kind 53 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: of cosmological I was not a function of the planet's move 54 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: around the Sun or the Earth turning around every pretty 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: much every other unit of time is a function of 56 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: planetary movements days, months, years, But a week humans made 57 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: a week that's just created because it just seems like 58 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: it's the right time for us. And yet, no matter 59 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: which human society we've gone to and studied, everyone has 60 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: a seven day week. No one has a five day week, 61 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: no one has a fifteen day week. There's something really 62 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: beautiful and human about a seven day time period. And 63 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: so every week for us, I mean, it's certainly for me, 64 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: I just spend fifteen minutes going what are my priorities 65 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: this week? And whose help do I need? What are 66 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: my priorities? Whose hell do I need? No long term 67 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: goal planning, none of that sort of long term stuff, 68 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: just every week of all the things I could be doing, 69 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: what are the few things I should be doing, and 70 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: whose help do I need. It's such a simple rhythm. 71 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: The world moves really quickly. But if you can do 72 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: that for me anyway every week, it becomes a way 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: to be super intentional about what's important this week, and 74 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: of course the things that I thought were important back 75 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: in January, by the first week of February it's all changed. 76 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: So that kind of rhythm, it's kind of a little 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: every week in a lot over time. It's super helpful. 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious about the second part of that, in 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: terms of whose help do I need? Because in terms 80 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: of like, you know, what do I want to achieve 81 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: or what do I want to get done during the week. 82 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: I think that's such a helpful question to ask. But 83 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 2: how did the second question come about? I'm curious. 84 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: Well, we've just I run this global institute right now 85 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: called the ADP Research Institute, and we've just finished this 86 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: nineteen country study of work around all of the different 87 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: countries of the world, different industries. And if you were 88 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: to say what characterizes work today, like what is the 89 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: most defining characteristic of work, it would be that we 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: work on teams. Nobody works alone. I know everyone saw 91 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: about the gig economy and so on, but that's all 92 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: actually a falsehood. No one works even if your financial 93 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,799 Speaker 1: arrangements are that you're an individual contractor. We are all connected, 94 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: and so work is always team work. There may be 95 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: one or two people that are sitting in a shed 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the garden just all by themselves, 97 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: but that is by far the exception that proves the rule. 98 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: Eighty three percent of people say that they do most 99 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: of their work on teams. So in that context, yeah, 100 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there maybe a little moments of flashes of 101 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: genius that you do all by yourself in the course 102 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: of the week, but almost everything that you're going to 103 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: try and do will involve leaning into, relying on calling 104 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: upon the strength of somebody else. And of course you 105 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: can do so much more together than you can do alone. 106 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: So thinking every single week about help whose help is 107 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: not only elevating in terms of thinking about other people 108 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: and how you can involve them. But it's also just pragmatic. 109 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: You're going to have to work with others, so you 110 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: might as well think intentionally about who those others are. 111 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough. A concept that you write about in 112 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: your most recent book, Nine Lives about Work. There's a 113 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: whole chapter around work life balance, which is a concept 114 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 2: that you don't believe in. And I'm curious as to 115 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 2: what you know. You talk about love in work, I 116 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: guess as an alternative to work life balance. And I 117 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: want to know what this looks like in your life, 118 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: because I think it's funny, like you're clearly someone that 119 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: loves what you do and I can certainly relate to that. 120 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 2: And I was reading an article in HBr just a 121 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: couple of days ago around how people that love what 122 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 2: they do are actually one of the groups that are 123 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: at the biggest risk of burnout. So I'm curious what 124 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: does this look like in your life? You know, loving 125 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: what you do and finding that love but also affording 126 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: burning out at the same time. 127 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a super interesting one, isn't it. First 128 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: of all, the data in HBr, I don't know what 129 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: data you're quoting, but that's unfortunately not true. We've got 130 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: really significant data that shows do what you love is 131 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: really not terribly helpful advice. Find love in what you 132 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: do is actually really helpful advice. We know from significant 133 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: male clinic data that if you have if you're a doctor, 134 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: and you've got less than twenty percent of your activities 135 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: in work are things that you love, with each percentage 136 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: point below twenty percent, there's a commensurate at one percentage 137 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: point increase in burnout risk. So we actually know causally 138 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: that there's a really strong negative relationship between doing things 139 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: that you love and burnout. If you do less and 140 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: less and less activities that you love, your burnout risk 141 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: goes up and up and up and up and up. 142 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: Now funnily enough, but beyond twenty percent you don't see 143 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 1: a commensurate decrease in burnout risks. So if you're twenty 144 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: five percent, thirty five percent, forty per half of the 145 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: activities on your job with things that you love, you 146 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: don't get a commensurate increase in resilience and decrease and burner. 147 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: So it almost seems as though a little love goes 148 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: a long way. We don't need to fill our entire 149 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: week with activities that we love. But if we get 150 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: below twenty percent, we got a problem. So twenty percent 151 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: I called them in chapter eight of the book, red threads. 152 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: Everybody's work life has got these different threads, some black 153 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: and gray, some white, whatever, Lots of different activities, lots 154 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: of different situations and contexts and people. But some of 155 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: those contexts and situations and people have a different valence 156 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: and different emotional valance to them. They're made of different material. 157 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: They lift you up, they invigorate you. You lean into them, 158 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: time goes by faster while you're doing them. Before you 159 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: do them, you look forward to them. When you're done 160 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: with them, you kind of want to do them again. 161 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: And everyone's weirdly different. Nobody's we call them red threads. 162 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: Everyone's got red threads. Activities or situations of people that 163 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: they find that actually invigorate, bring strength into you. And 164 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: everyone's just different. Not a function of gender, it's not 165 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: a function of race, certainly not a function of age. 166 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: Every one of us, just because of our own idiosyncrasy, 167 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: are drawn to certain things and repelled by others and life. 168 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: What's so beautiful about life is that life does have 169 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: so many multitudes of different activities and situations and actions 170 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: and people. It's almost it's set up to invigorate us 171 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: if we bother to really pay attention to the particular 172 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: activities that we really love. And so when you think 173 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: about work life balance, the problem initially there, of course, 174 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: and it's not really it's not something to believe in 175 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: or not believe in. We simply have to look at 176 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: the real world. The categories of work life balance are wrong. 177 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: There is no work, there is no life on other side, 178 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: on the other end of the scale. Work is part 179 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: of life, just like family is part of life. Community 180 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: is part of life. There's life. There's not work in 181 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: life life. And it's not like life is good and 182 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: work is bad and you have to balance out the 183 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: bad of the work with the good of the life. 184 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: That's just that's false categories. What we have is life 185 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: and in life, whether it's work or family or community 186 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: or wherever, there are a lot of different aspects, actions, context, people, 187 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: and some of them we lean into and some of 188 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: them we are repelled by. Whether it's being a mother, 189 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: whether it's being a friend. Everybody gets a different kick 190 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: out of different aspects of being a mother, or being 191 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: a friend, being a worker, and so the categories we 192 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: should really look at aren't work and life and balancing them. 193 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 1: It should be love and love and deliberately imbalancing. We 194 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: should strive in life as desperately as we can for imbalance. 195 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: We should be desperately always imbalancing our life toward more 196 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: activities that we love, that invigorate us, and away from 197 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: those we love. And so for me, one of the 198 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: rituals that I have we do this again. We actually 199 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: have technology tools and apps and so and help us 200 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: do this, but we do something called love it loathe 201 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: it every week when I do that check in that 202 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: was talking about, where we talk about what one are 203 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: the you know, one of my priorities for this week? 204 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: And whose help do I need? The other two questions 205 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: we ask us And this sort of prompts us to ask. 206 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: The technology prompts us to ask this of ourselves, which 207 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: activities did you love and which did you loath? Every week? 208 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: Which you love, which you loath, which you love, which 209 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: you loath, which you love, which you loath? Fifty two 210 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: weeks a year, just so that it puts everybody in 211 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: the driving seat, and myself certainly in the driving seat 212 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: for being responsible for how much love do I put 213 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: into a week? So for me, that's super helpful. I 214 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: love finding patterns in data. I love trying to make 215 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: sense of something and putting it into a presentation of 216 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: putting it into a book. I love time spent really noodling. 217 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: I love being by myself. I love being put under 218 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: pressure to have a chance to share something I loathe. 219 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: And then's a whole bunch of loads. And I don't 220 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: have to have, as I said with the Mayo Clinic data, 221 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: I don't have to have eighty percent of my week 222 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: filled with loves. But if I, boy, if I get 223 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: below twenty and some weeks I've had below twenty, and what. 224 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: Do you do, Like, what do you do in those weeks? 225 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: Like when you've got your load list? Do you how 226 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: do you decide what to delegate and what to just 227 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: suck up? And I guess what to just stop doing? 228 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: Well, there's some strategies that you can use that I 229 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: can use. One of the strategies for the things that 230 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: you loathe is stop doing it and see if anyone cares. 231 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just stop it. Like there's a whole 232 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: bunch of stuff that we do that we think we 233 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: should do, and you stop doing normal. Notice you know, 234 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: for me, I I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm building business, 235 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: but I don't like asking people for the clothes. I 236 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: don't like it. And what I figured out is if 237 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: I stop asking people the clothes, people still buy things. 238 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: They just persuade themselves. It doesn't if I don't need 239 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: to get better at closing, I actually need to get 240 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: better at doing things that make people want to close themselves. 241 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: You can actually think of the acronym stop is pretty useful. 242 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: The T the S is stopped doing it. So if 243 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: anyone cares, T stands for team up with people, Well 244 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: that there I hate. I don't like confrontation, but there's 245 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: other people on my team that do. I don't like problems. 246 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: There's other people on my team that do. There's a 247 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: bunch of activities that I love. Some of the things 248 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: I low that I'm going to have to do, but 249 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: there are some of the things I load that other 250 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: people love, and that's kind of that's that's cool. I mean. 251 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: Then the o you can think about is offer up 252 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: one of your strengths and it might mitigate the thing 253 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: that you loathe. So I don't like mingling. I hate mingling. 254 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: I hate the pressure of it. But I love interviewing. 255 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 1: I love interviewing people. I love asking questions and shutting up. 256 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: So if I have to go to a couple of 257 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: parties or meet and greets, and I have to do 258 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: a fair bit of that in my job, I just 259 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: deliberately change my view of it from mingling, which I hate, 260 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: to interviewing, and I'll just pick. If there's twenty people there, 261 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: I'll pick three of them. I'll pick them out almost 262 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: before I go in. I'll pick them out, and I'll 263 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: deliberately interview them. Take twenty minutes to talk to that person, 264 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: twenty minutes talk to that person, twenty minutes to talk 265 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: to that person, and then leave. And so I've sort 266 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: of used a strength to mitigate a weakness. And then lastly, 267 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: the peace stands. But can you change your perspective on something? 268 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: Can you change your point of view on it so 269 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: that it doesn't And this is more mind games. But 270 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: if you, oh, I don't know. I mean, I've run 271 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: a business a while, So sometimes you have to fire people. 272 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: If you have to do that in the course of 273 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: the week, and you know you're going to have to 274 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: do it with a couple of people, because folks are complicated, 275 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: and sometimes you move them into a job that they 276 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: shouldn't have and so on when that happens and oh, 277 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: it's horrible. Rather than seeming myself up about it, can 278 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: I change my perspective on it to see that actually 279 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: having someone stay in a job that is not right 280 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: for them every single day and they know it and 281 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: you know it, that's not caring. So can I change 282 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: that conversation to think about moving this person out of 283 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: the job as actually genuinely, authentically a caring thing to 284 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: do for the person. So for any of your listeners 285 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: that are struggling with things that they loathe but have 286 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: to do, that acronym stop is actually kind of a 287 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: useful way of thinking about it. 288 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: That is really useful. I particularly love the mingling one. 289 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: I like you hate mingling. I'm definitely more on the 290 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: introverted side of the spectrum, and I'm going to take 291 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: that as a good tip from this interview. Through things 292 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: like an interview, I like that a lot. You mentioned 293 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: that one of the things that you love is, you know, 294 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: sort of looking at ideas and building those into books 295 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: and keynotes. And of course, when you write a book, 296 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: and you've written several, one of the prices as an 297 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: author goes through is turning that book into a keynote speech. 298 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: And I'm curious as to what is your process of 299 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: turning a book into a speech. 300 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: The best guidance I ever got about giving speeches was 301 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: from a chap who was the president of Gallup, well, 302 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: the chairman of Gallup when I joined. His name was 303 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: doctor Donald Doll Clifton, and he was sort of the 304 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: grandfather of positive psychology. But and he was a shy 305 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: guy too. He was introverted, but he could stand up 306 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: on stage and talk for an hour on anything like 307 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: he was just unbelievable and not rah rah rah rah rah, 308 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: just super engaging and easy and natural. And I was like, 309 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: how'd you do that? How'd you do that? Notes? Is 310 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: it learnt? And he gave me this idea that for 311 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: whatever reason, it's stuck in my brain and has really 312 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: helped me in doing any sort of presentation. He said, 313 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: you've got to think about a speech is really beads 314 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: b e a ds beads, A bead is a Joe 315 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: or it's a little story or it's a little piece 316 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: of data, or it's a longer story. But a bead 317 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: is a thing that you like to tell people, and 318 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: that you've tried it out on phone calls or in 319 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: emails or in a meeting. You've just experimented with beads. 320 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: And if it's a joke, it has to be something 321 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: that you think is funny. If it's a story that 322 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: you have to think, it's something that you are interested in. 323 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: If it's a piece of data, it's something that grabs 324 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: your attention. So you start always with beads that interested, 325 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: that interests you, And it might take two minutes to 326 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: tell your bead, it might take ten minutes. But you 327 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: start off with your little bead, and then over the 328 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: course of a few months, you polish your beads, You 329 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: polish the story, you make it a little bit longer, 330 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: or you figure out when you tried it at that 331 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: meeting last week, no one really understood what the heck 332 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: you were talking about, and so you go, hmm. But 333 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: you keep polishing your beads, and then you string them 334 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: when you give a speech. You simply and I used 335 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: to have them on two by five cards. You know, 336 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: you'd have like two hundred and fifty two by five cards. 337 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: Now today I just keep it in my in my iPhone. 338 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: But this is like your your box of beads, and 339 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: then when you make a speech, you just string the beads. 340 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: You choose which stories, jokes, data you're going to share, 341 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: and you just ordered them into a string. And that's 342 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: when I've written a book, that's what I choose to do. 343 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: I'll go, what what are the beads from this book? 344 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 1: Let me try him out, try him out, try them out, 345 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: try them out for me. It ended up I actually 346 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: had to. I followed Barack Obama of all people, last April, 347 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: oh May, and I knew I was going to have 348 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: I mean, he's amazing. I'm certainly obviously I'm not comparing 349 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: myself to Barack Obama, but he had the first morning 350 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: and I the next morning, and I was like, I'm 351 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: not going to be able to stand up in stage 352 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: in front of ten thousand people and wing this. I've 353 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: got to have my beads polished. And so that's the 354 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: visual imagery of the metaphor that I use for thinking 355 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: about how you take a ninety thousand word book and 356 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: turn it into a sixty minute speech. 357 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 2: Oh, I love that metaphor. It reminds me. I had 358 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: Rachel Botsman on the show quite a few months ago, 359 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: and she described a somewhat similar process where she'll almost 360 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: modularize different points or stories and so forth, and file 361 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: them into different categories and then assemble them in a 362 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: way that makes sense depending on the context and the 363 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 2: audience and so forth. I'm curious with the beads, how 364 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: do you decide on the structure for any given presentation. 365 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: I start off with some inciting question or inciting event 366 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: that I like to think of it as if I 367 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: described this inciting event or question, and then I say, 368 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: and I'm now going to tell you the answer. And 369 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: then if I looked at my watch, I went, oh, 370 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: my gosh, I'm toribly sorry. I have to go off 371 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: stage because I got to go pick up my kid 372 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: from school. That if I were to have set it 373 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: up right, people would tackle me before I was able 374 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: to get off stage. And so like, we've just finished, 375 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: as I said, this nineteen country study. And so for me, 376 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: I always start off by going, well, how would I 377 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: we just did a nineteen Like who cares about that? 378 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: What's the right way to get people's attention, And for me, 379 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: it starts with, you know, you've got to put a 380 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 1: couple of things in front of people that make them 381 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: go huh. Yeah, I hadn't. I hadn't thought about that, 382 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: but god, now I do. I'm like super intrigued what 383 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: the answer is. So in that case, if you put 384 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: up data that says we've looked at perpose and productivity 385 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: numbers in all these large countries around the world, hasn't 386 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: been any real increase in purpose and productivity since nineteen 387 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: seventy three. Think of all the time and the money 388 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: and the effort and the energy and the technology we've 389 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: thrown at getting more productivity out of people in the 390 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: last fifty years, and we haven't moved it. And then 391 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: you think about all the energy that we spent on 392 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: all the books and the training programs and everything to 393 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: get people more engaged at work, and yet engagement overall 394 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: around the world hasn't moved above sixteen percent since nineteen 395 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: eighty eight. Why, why, despite all of our best efforts 396 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: and intentions, have we failed so miserably to increase either 397 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: productivity or engagement around the world. Well, we've just done 398 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: this study to find out why, and it turns out 399 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: there's one thing we've missed that it can explain almost 400 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: all of the variance and lack of improvement in productivity 401 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: and engagement. Oh, I got to go pick up my 402 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: kid now out that's how I would do it, and 403 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: it would. 404 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 2: That's great, and hang on, we need closure here, macus. 405 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: Well, I can give you the speech well for me 406 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: like that. If that's your setup and you go because 407 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: we've missed the elephant in the room people, then people 408 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: will go, Okay, what's the elephant in the room? Is 409 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: there any And then they'll start thinking for themselves, right, like, huh, 410 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: what is the elephant in the room. It's got to 411 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: be a pretty big elephant. But what's and then you 412 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: better have a payoff. So in this case, as it 413 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: turns out, when you look at levels of engagement and 414 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: you look at what drives levels of engagement, and another 415 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: good tip, I think what you're doing presentations is is 416 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: just play out for people what they're already thinking. So 417 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: if you do what I just did, and you say, 418 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, why haven't we seen increases in productivity or 419 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: engagement around the world, and you do this research study 420 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: and it turns out there's one fact that explains almost 421 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: all of the variants. The moment you say that, people 422 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: in their head and you're audience is starting to go, 423 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: I wonder what that is, And then they're running through 424 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: a list. Is it industry, maybe it's geography, maybe it's age, 425 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's the generations, maybe it's gender, maybe it's education level, 426 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: maybe it's length of service. You know, they'll start asking 427 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: themselves that those questions, and so it's always good, I 428 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: think anyway and doing a presentation to say that, to 429 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: say what they're thinking. And so you're you're now on 430 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: their side. You know you you're with them, and so 431 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: that's what I would do. In that case, I would 432 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: go is it? 433 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: This is it? 434 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: This is it? This is it? That is it? This 435 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: that's interesting? And then you can land whatever you want 436 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: to land. And in this case, what I had to 437 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: land was when you run the analysis. By far, the 438 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: strongest driver of whether or not you feel engaged in 439 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: productive at work is whether you say you work on 440 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: a team. That if you say you work on a 441 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: team and you deeply trust the team leader of the team, 442 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: you're fourteen times more likely to be fully engaged at work. 443 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: Two and a half times more likely if you're just 444 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: on a team, and then if you deeply trust the 445 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: team leader, which means you say five on a scale 446 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: of one to five, then you're twelve times more likely 447 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: to be fully engaged at work. So we have missed 448 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: that all work is team work. We don't organize our 449 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: hospitals that way, we don't organize our schools that way, 450 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: we don't organize our factories that way. And even really 451 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: sophisticated companies like at Lassion and Google have no idea 452 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: how many teams they have, who's on those teams, which 453 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: are their best teams, how to build more teams like 454 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: the best teams. They don't have any idea about any 455 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: of that. Because the way that we organize everything we 456 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: do at work, from goals to leadership development to performance 457 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: to succession planning, everything at work is organized and arranged 458 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: through what are called human capital management systems, which are 459 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: the HR systems and the HR systems because they are 460 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: extensions of financial systems. Simply tell you the boxes on 461 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: the ORG chart, who reports to who reports to who, 462 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: and which salary is in which box on the ORG chart. 463 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: And yet if you ask people where they work, they'll 464 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: say eighty three percent of them say they work on teams, 465 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: but sixty five percent of those people say they will 466 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: work on more than one team, and more than three 467 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: quarters of those people say that those extra teams are 468 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: not reflected on the ORG chart. So there is a 469 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: huge swath at work that is invisible to even the 470 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: most like Google has not as face, but I mean 471 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: pick up sort of whatever you think as a sophisticated company, 472 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: they don't know where the work is because they can't 473 00:25:59,000 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: see teams. 474 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely fascinating. And one of the other things that you 475 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: talk about being broken in Nine Lies is around the 476 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: planning process, which I found really interesting, and you talk 477 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 2: about how we need an intelligence system, and when I 478 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 2: was reading that part of the book, I was curious, 479 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: how have you applied that in your own working life, 480 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: And maybe if you could just give listeners that haven't 481 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: read Nine Lies just sort of like a snapshot of 482 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 2: what you mean around this annual planning process that businesses 483 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 2: go on, you know, perhaps not being the best use 484 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: of their time. 485 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: I know what it's late in Australia, but certainly in 486 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: the US we build planning systems. Everybody's forever planning. We 487 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: put a lot of stock on plans and plans are 488 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: defined this way. The frontline people provide data information. That 489 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: information is pushed up, up and back away from the 490 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: front line to the people who are five miles behind 491 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: the front line. Once a year, maybe twice a year. 492 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: They take all the information and they put it together 493 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: in the there's always some sort of executive summary. In fact, 494 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good definition, isn't It's a summary for 495 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: an executive of pieces of information from the front line. 496 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: Those executives take the executive summary, which is summarized, and 497 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: then they'll use that summary to try and put together 498 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: plans about what we're going to go do and what 499 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: we're going to go spend, and how we're going to 500 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: allocate our assets. And then the plan is put together. Normally, 501 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 1: it's presented to the board in some way. It's then 502 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: called a strategic plan. And then and then that gets 503 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: passed down and passed down and passed down. And so 504 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: while the plan, the strategic plan might have been put 505 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: together in October and then approved in November, it starts 506 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: to get implemented in April, maybe March, and of course 507 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: by that time it's worse than useless, it's worse than 508 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: useless because it seems like it's really well put together 509 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: and functional, but it's falsely precise because the world has 510 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: moved on by the time that the plan was put 511 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: together in October, yeah, but by the time you bump 512 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: into April next April, the world's moved. So your plan 513 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: was put together to engage with one set of circumstances 514 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: that it's no longer real. The plan helps you engage 515 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: with the recent past. The example we quoted in the 516 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: book was General Stanley McCrystal, who was the General in 517 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: charge of the Joint Special Operations Command in Afghanistan at 518 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: the end of the or maybe it was in Iraq, 519 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: I think in the after the Rack War, and he 520 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: had a planning system to help him find the bad guys, 521 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: the terrorists in their cells and attack them, kill them. 522 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: And no matter how fast he run the planning process, 523 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: he kept missing. They were gone, They had cell phones, 524 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: they had small dynamic cells of people that broke apart 525 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: and moved quickly. So there's no point having an executive 526 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: summary when you're trying to find that team, that terrorist 527 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: cell hiding in that hideout on that day in that town. Well, 528 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: that's a whole bunch of specific detail executive summaries don't 529 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: help there. So no matter how fast they ran their 530 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: planning system, they were always late. They couldn't find anybody. 531 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: And so what he did, it's super smart. He flipped 532 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: it around. He flipped the whole model around, and he 533 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: built an intelligence system. And the characteristics of an intelligence 534 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: system are that the people that are five miles behind 535 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: the front line, their entire job really is to develop 536 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: systems and rituals that enable the people on the front 537 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: line to have as much real world information as possible. 538 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: And then the people on the front lines are the 539 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: ones who take that real world information and try and 540 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: make sense of it together so they can decide what 541 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: to do. And it's the people on the front line 542 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: that take the real world, reliable information and then make 543 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: the decisions on what to do. That's an intelligence system. 544 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: And the intelligence that we're talking about there is on 545 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: the front lines, in the classrooms with the patient writing 546 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: the software code. That's where the real world is. And 547 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: if you're going to engage with the real world, you 548 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: can't build a planning system. It's too slow. Planning isn't 549 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: useless because it helps you sort of scope the problem 550 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: but it doesn't help you at all with the solution. 551 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: And that's something you know, the federal government here in 552 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: the US has got to figure out. I'm sure the 553 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: Australian government is a planning system. You know, some of 554 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: your big banks, I've worked with them, they're planning systems, 555 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: and it all means that they're too slow and they're 556 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: too late and through some of the certainly some of 557 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: the financial brew ha ha that's gone on with your 558 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: financial system in Australia lately, it's all the decisions were 559 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: being made in the wrong place, wrong time. Yeah. 560 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I'm sure that there are a lot of 561 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 2: listeners that can that are nodding their heads and relating 562 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: to this. And I want to know how how does 563 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: this work? Like in your consultancy and like are there 564 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: are there still annual goals that you're aiming for? Like 565 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 2: what what does that look like? In your working life? 566 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: There are certainly things that are longer than a week 567 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: for us. I think I like to think of them 568 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: as as as projects. Everything's a project. So you start 569 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: with the and I like Simon Sinek's stuff on this, 570 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, you start with the why what? Why are 571 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: we doing? What? We're doing. What's the thing that gets 572 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: out of bed? And I don't mean in terms of 573 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: a general mission. I mean like I run a research institute. Why, 574 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: why what are we trying to do here? Who's it for? 575 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: And so just talk a lot about In this case 576 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: for me, oh my word, we're living in a world 577 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: of content marketing where seemingly everyone's figured out that if 578 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: you just throw a bit of a statistic here and 579 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: a bit of statistic there, we are running into a 580 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: world in which people aren't data fluent, as in, no 581 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: one knows what's true anymore. Everyone's just putting fake research 582 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: out that they don't even know it's fake. But it's 583 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: really just content marketing. So where's the source of truth 584 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: about what we know, what we provably, humbly reliably know 585 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: about the world of work? Where's that? Well that doesn't exist. 586 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: So for me in the institute, it's like, all right, 587 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: let's go find some things that we can know for sure. 588 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: We don't have to overclaim, we can underclaim actually, and 589 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: then just say well, this is what we know for sure. 590 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: And then from that point comes projects, Okay, what should 591 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: we go and try and do. What are the specific 592 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: things that clearly are going to take longer than a 593 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: week that we think are important in making that Why 594 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: become real? 595 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, like in terms of defining the projects, 596 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: like how how tightly or loosely is a project defined 597 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 2: for you and your world? 598 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 1: Before we did this global study of engagement, we had 599 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: to define I said, we ought to This is about 600 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: a year ago. It's like we ought to find out 601 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: we are. There is no global calibrated measure of engagement 602 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: around the world. We don't know how engaged the Japanese 603 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: are versus the people who work in the United Arab 604 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: Emirates versus the people who work in Brazil, there's no calibrated. 605 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: By calibrated, I mean the Japanese respond to scales in 606 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: a way that's meaningfully and measurably different than the way 607 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: the Brazilians do. So you can't compare data from Brazil 608 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: data to japan survey data because we know that the 609 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: Japanese respond differently in different uses of scales. So where's 610 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: the Where's that? Where's the global study of engagement that 611 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: takes into account the different nationalities and how they respond 612 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: to scales? But there isn't any. So I'm like well, 613 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: we should do that, and so then it's a function 614 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: of going on, well what would that look like, how 615 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: would we get the sample? How many countries, how many people? 616 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: So then you start just breaking it down into how 617 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: would we make this real? At least that's how I work. 618 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: I like, that's that's very cool. And now we somehow 619 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: the time has flown by, and I know that we 620 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 2: are now out of time. So my last question for you, 621 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 2: Mac is is if people want to consume more of 622 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 2: what you're doing and more of your research and thinking, 623 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 2: how can they do that. 624 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: Obviously, we put a lot of this thinking into Nine 625 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: Lives About Work, which is the book, but we also 626 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: wanted to work with Harvard to create a place where 627 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: anybody that is interested in taking these knowable truths and 628 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: apply them in the real world of work. We wanted 629 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: a place whe people could go to engage with that. 630 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: So we created a Freethinking Leader coalition. So if you 631 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: go to free thinking Leader dot org freethinking Leader dot org, 632 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of ours. And have a business reviews place 633 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: where any leader of a small team or a big company, 634 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: a team of teams who thinks, you know what, an 635 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: awful lot of what we currently do to get the 636 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: best out of ourselves and our people is clearly not working. 637 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: What are the lies that I need to pull back? 638 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: And then what are the truths that will uncover behind provable, measurable, 639 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: tangible truths, no matter how messy the truths are. Anybody 640 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: who wants to really engage with those tooths and make 641 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: change in the world so that we don't have another 642 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: fifty years of super low engagement and low productivity, or 643 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: just maybe because of the moral reason that you've got 644 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: kids and you don't want to go to work and 645 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: field alienated, go to freethinking Leader dot org and you'll 646 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: find a lot of people like you. 647 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 2: Fantastic. That's awesomething. I will link to are that in 648 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 2: the show notes as well. Well. Marcus, I've love chatting 649 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 2: to you. I love nine Lies, and I recommend it 650 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: for anyone that is kind of feeling like, hang on, 651 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 2: surely there's a better way than this about their organization. 652 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: So thank you, Marcus. It's just been an absolute pleasure, 653 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 2: my pleasure. So that is it for today's show. I 654 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 2: hope you enjoyed my chat with Marcus, and if you 655 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: know someone else that would enjoy it, why not share 656 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 2: this episode with them. And if you're enjoying how I work, 657 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 2: I would love it if you could take like two 658 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 2: or three seconds to leave a review in Apple Podcasts 659 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to the show. And thank you 660 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: to all the lovely people who have left reviews. You're 661 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: wonderful and it brings a huge smile to my face 662 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: whenever I read a new review. So thank you. And 663 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: that is it for today and I'll see you next time.