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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the eighteenth of April.

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Speaker 2: I'm zara, I'm hurry.

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Speaker 3: This week, Donald Trump became the first ever former US

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Speaker 3: president to face a criminal trial.

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Speaker 4: There is no case and they've said it people that

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Speaker 4: don't necessarily follow or like the trumpt So this is

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Speaker 4: an algoram said this case was right.

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Speaker 3: He's been appearing in a New York court over allegations

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Speaker 3: he tried to conceal hush money to adult film star

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Speaker 3: Stormy Daniels by falsifying his business records. Trump denies the claims.

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Speaker 3: Today though, We're going to break through all the noise

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Speaker 3: of Trump's many legal dramas to bring you everything you

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Speaker 3: need to know before we get there. It's making headlines today.

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Speaker 2: Bondai Junction, Westfield will open its doors for kim unity

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Speaker 2: reflection today after six people were killed in a stabbing

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Speaker 2: over the weekend. Community members are welcome to attend the

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Speaker 2: center for quiet reflection from eleven am to five pm.

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Speaker 2: Mental health counselors will be available to provide support, and

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Speaker 2: black ribbons will be offered. To commemorate the victims. Center

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Speaker 2: management said retailers will open for trading again from Friday.

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Speaker 3: Defense Minister Richard Miles has announced a fifty billion dollar

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Speaker 3: boost to defense spending over the next decade. Males said

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Speaker 3: efforts would be focused on the Asia Pacific, keeping quote

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Speaker 3: the vast bulk of our effort in our region so

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Speaker 3: that Australia is quote taken seriously. Part of this increased

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Speaker 3: spending is Australia's commitment to the Orchis Agreement, which will

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Speaker 3: see nuclear powered submarines made and sent here.

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Speaker 2: Croatians headed to the polls overnight for a snap election,

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Speaker 2: in a poll that could influence the country's relationship with Russia.

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Speaker 2: Current Prime Minister Andre Plankovich is leader of the Croatian

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Speaker 2: Democratic Union, which has dominated power for decades, but is

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Speaker 2: expected to lose seats. His unofficial opponent is the country's President,

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Speaker 2: Zoran Milanovich, who said he will resign from the largely

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Speaker 2: ceremonial post and become prime minister if his Social Democratic

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Speaker 2: Party wins. In that case, Croatia is expected to align

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Speaker 2: itself with Russia, since Milanovich opposes aid to Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: And Today's good News the European Union has announced a

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Speaker 3: three point five billion euro investment in ocean protection and sustainability.

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Speaker 3: At the International Our Ocean Conference, EU representatives announced the

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Speaker 3: billions would be split across investments in pollution management, biodiversity

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Speaker 3: and sustainable fishing. It also increased its funding commitments to

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Speaker 3: the EU climate change service Copernicus.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Nish and I'm the lead developer at the

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Speaker 1: Dally Yots. I'm responsible for developing all the tech that

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Speaker 1: we use from the website to the newsletter in just

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Speaker 1: two seconds. You can help the daily odds grow just

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Speaker 1: by clicking follow on Apple or Spotify, and if you

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Speaker 1: want to leave us a review that also helps a

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Speaker 1: lot too. Thank you, and now back to the.

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Speaker 2: Deep dive, Harry.

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Speaker 3: It's been a big week for Donald Trump and for

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Speaker 3: anyone that is following his many, many legal woes. This

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Speaker 3: week being big because it's the start of his criminal trial.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge moment for America, I think altogether, because

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Speaker 2: this is their first president to face a criminal trial,

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Speaker 2: and that in itself is it's extraordinary. In this particular case,

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Speaker 2: Trump is accused of covering up payments he allegedly made

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Speaker 2: to an adult film star Stormy Daniels just weeks out

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Speaker 2: from the twenty sixteen presidential election. Now, prosecutor say Trump

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Speaker 2: wanted to kill Daniel's story that the pair had an

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Speaker 2: affair many years earlier, and he arranged for his lawyers

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Speaker 2: to paid Daniels, and then when he needed to declare

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Speaker 2: his business records, the prosecutors said, he tried to cover

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Speaker 2: this up as legitimate legal costs. It's so easy to

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Speaker 2: get lost in the headlines and all the developments agreed,

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Speaker 2: So I thought we should talk to someone who follows

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Speaker 2: these cases really closely. So I spoke to Chas Lichdello,

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Speaker 2: who hosts Planet America on the APC, and he's a

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Speaker 2: bit of a whiz when it comes to all things

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Speaker 2: Trump's legal dramas.

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Speaker 3: Now, before we get to that chat, the trials already started.

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Speaker 3: It perhaps got a bit lost in the craziness of

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Speaker 3: the news cycle in Australia at the beginning of this week.

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Speaker 3: But have we seen any dramatic, big moments yet in

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Speaker 3: the trial.

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Speaker 5: Not really.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it's been quite uneventful this week because there's

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Speaker 2: a bit of a procedure that needs to take place first,

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Speaker 2: and that involves both Trump's lawyers and the prosecutors vetting

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Speaker 2: and choosing the jury. So the jury selection process.

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Speaker 3: It's incredible to me that they could have a jury

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Speaker 3: for this case exactly.

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Speaker 2: So twelve jurors and six backup people who are known

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Speaker 2: as alternates, who will decide whether or not Trump is guilty.

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Speaker 2: And it's really interesting, I think, as you said, because

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Speaker 2: Trump was the president, and I think it's not really

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Speaker 2: a stretch to say that almost everyone in the US

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Speaker 2: would know who he is, and so I imagine it's

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Speaker 2: not going to be easy to find a group of

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Speaker 2: people who don't have a view formed about Trump himself.

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Speaker 3: It would be so hard to be asked to just

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Speaker 3: leave your bias at the door, exactly, and to just

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Speaker 3: come to this as if you've never heard a story

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Speaker 3: about him.

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Speaker 5: It's unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: It's almost everyone is a voter in America as well,

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Speaker 2: and so you have to sort of set that aside

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Speaker 2: for this particular trial if you want to be on

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Speaker 2: the jury. And I think it's also just really important

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Speaker 2: to note before we get started that Trump has pleaded

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Speaker 2: not guilty and he denies any wrongdoing. In my chat

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Speaker 2: with Chaz, we discussed Trump's many trials, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's just important to remember he hasn't been found guilty

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Speaker 2: of anything yet. There's still a big legal process to

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Speaker 2: go through, so that involves gathering evidence, hearing testimony, and

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Speaker 2: ultimately that's how the final judgment is going to be

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Speaker 2: made on whether or not he is guilty. And so

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Speaker 2: most of what we discuss against Trump are just allegations

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Speaker 2: at this stage and need to be treated as such.

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Speaker 3: And on that note, let's jump into the chat.

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Speaker 2: Chaz Lichadello, thank you so much for joining the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure so chas this is the first criminal

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Speaker 2: trial of a US president and it relates to hush

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Speaker 2: money payments he allegedly made to an adult film star,

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Speaker 2: Stormy Daniels in the lead up to the twenty sixteen

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Speaker 2: presidential election. That was a long time ago. So how

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Speaker 2: do we end up here in.

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Speaker 4: This particular trials actually a really interesting and torturous route

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Speaker 4: to get to today, because really, this paying offer a

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Speaker 4: porn star is not illegal. There's nothing wrong with that legally.

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Speaker 5: So why is he in court?

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Speaker 4: How could he potentially go to jail because of this?

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Speaker 4: It's because back in twenty seventeen, when he paid her off,

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Speaker 4: he declared it as legal expenses rather than as an

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Speaker 4: actual hush payment, and that the fact that they've taken

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Speaker 4: such a torturous method means it's going to be a

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Speaker 4: hard case to.

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Speaker 5: Try and prosecute.

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Speaker 4: I don't think Trump's going to be found guilty because

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Speaker 4: they need to make the federal charge stick. They need

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Speaker 4: to basically achieve almost impossible to make this charge stick.

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Speaker 2: So you say, it's not particularly likely in your view

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Speaker 2: that this could actually result in a guilty verdict against Trump.

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Speaker 2: So what do you expect will happen over the next

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Speaker 2: days and weeks? Is this a bit more theater than substance.

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Speaker 5: I think essentially yes.

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Speaker 4: I think what's going to happen over the next few

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Speaker 4: weeks and maybe even months, is there's going to be

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Speaker 4: a lot of dramatic testimony. There's going to be a

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Speaker 4: lot of speculation about Trump being angry and going crazy.

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Speaker 4: And look, it won't just be speculation. He will go crazy.

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Speaker 4: He will be angry, that's Trump. There's going to be

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Speaker 4: a real sideshow about it. And a lot of people

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Speaker 4: who don't understand the law are going to think day

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Speaker 4: by day as they see something dramatic happen, they go oh.

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Speaker 5: This proves that he's going to go to jile or

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Speaker 5: this proves is going to get off. But in reality,

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Speaker 5: what determines the final verdict is going to be very

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Speaker 5: technical elements.

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Speaker 2: And will we be able to see this drama unfold?

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Speaker 4: No, No, there's no cameras inside. I mean, we're going

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Speaker 4: to live the drama because it's Trump and he is

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Speaker 4: going to ensure that every single day he's going to

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Speaker 4: be out the front of the court telling us exactly

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Speaker 4: what in his view happened, and then other people will

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Speaker 4: be contradicting him.

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Speaker 2: Let's just imagine that the prosecutors defy the odds and

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Speaker 2: Trump is found guilty. Could he end up in jail

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Speaker 2: from this trip?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, if he's found guilty, he's in a lot of trouble.

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Speaker 5: As far as potential jail time.

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Speaker 4: It's possible that the jury would be concerned about the

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Speaker 4: technical nature of the charge and so they might not

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Speaker 4: stick him with jail time. But it's on the cards

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Speaker 4: that's for sure. Certainly, the maximum sentence for many of

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Speaker 4: his charges is jail time.

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Speaker 5: So yes, he could go to jail.

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Speaker 2: And he's the presumptive nominee for the Republican Party for

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Speaker 2: the presidential election later this year. What is that going

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Speaker 2: to mean for his presidential bid at the end of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 4: I don't think this trial is going to make a

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Speaker 4: lot of difference in the grand scheme of things, because

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Speaker 4: the politics under Trump has done very strange things to

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Speaker 4: the laws of physics time and basically six months in

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Speaker 4: Trump years is like a hundred years. So even though

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Speaker 4: right now and during this trial, people will constantly say, oh.

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Speaker 5: My god, this is going to make husians of the election.

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Speaker 4: How many times have we heard that over the last

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Speaker 4: even just just the last two years, about you know,

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Speaker 4: the elections won or lost because of that, And then

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Speaker 4: two weeks later everyone's forgotten that particular event ever happened.

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Speaker 4: And I expect this will be exactly the same unless

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Speaker 4: he goes to jail, which, as you were right to.

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Speaker 5: Point out, is actually a possibility.

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Speaker 4: Unless he goes to jail, I can't see this affecting

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Speaker 4: the election in any massive way.

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Speaker 2: But if he does go to jail, that could affect

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Speaker 2: his candidacy.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, it'll be hard for him to campaign effectively.

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Speaker 5: Can jail?

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Speaker 2: And so there have been what feels like plenty of

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Speaker 2: cases against Trump recently, and this is the first criminal trial.

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Speaker 2: So can you just quickly explain what the difference between

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Speaker 2: this trial and some of his other lawsuits are.

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Speaker 4: That's a great question. Before now it's been civil trials

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Speaker 4: rather than criminal trials, and it was between a civil

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Speaker 4: trial and a criminal trial. Apart from the fact that

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Speaker 4: in criminal trials you can potentially go to jail whereas

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Speaker 4: in the civil trials you can't go to jail.

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Speaker 5: Is number one, the standard of proof is very.

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Speaker 4: Very different, like you need to prove beyond a reasonable

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Speaker 4: doubt that he has committed these crimes, whereas with civil

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Speaker 4: trials it's about the balance of probabilities, what's more likely,

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Speaker 4: And what that means is when you get found guilty

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Speaker 4: in a criminal trial, you are found guilty, whereas what

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Speaker 4: happened in a civil trial, they can't say he's been

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Speaker 4: found guilty of anything.

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Speaker 2: So what are some of the other big lawsuits against

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Speaker 2: Trump that we should be keeping an eye on.

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Speaker 4: I think the worst has happened to Trump as far

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Speaker 4: as civil trials goes now with a four hundred plus

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Speaker 4: million dollar fine, that's as bas it gets in a

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Speaker 4: civil trial. The criminal trials now are what matter, and

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Speaker 4: in particular, the one you should really look out for,

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Speaker 4: la pill folks on.

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Speaker 5: The January sixth trial, the Jenery six criminal trial.

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Speaker 4: That's the most famous one because obviously January six was

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Speaker 4: such a big deal in America, and Trump essentially being

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Speaker 4: found guilty of being responsible for January six is a

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Speaker 4: big deal in itself, and also there's genuine jail time

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Speaker 4: on the cards there as well.

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Speaker 5: The January sixth trial.

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Speaker 4: I don't think he is one to watch out for

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Speaker 4: so much because it won't happen before the election. Another

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Speaker 4: one which I think won't happen before the election, which

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Speaker 4: is actually the one that he's in most trouble with,

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Speaker 4: is the Document's case in Flora. This is the one

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Speaker 4: where he was found with all these classified documents in

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Speaker 4: his toilet on a stage like in just boxes all

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Speaker 4: over the place. And it wasn't so much that he

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Speaker 4: was found with the documents that was the problem. Biden

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Speaker 4: was also found with a bunch of classified documents. He's

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Speaker 4: not being charged. The difference is that Trump then obstructed

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Speaker 4: justice when they discovered those documents. Trump did whatever he

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Speaker 4: could to not give them back and to hide them

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Speaker 4: and to lie to the FBI about having them and

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Speaker 4: to get his people to try to destroy evidence, like

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Speaker 4: on videotape of him hiding the documents.

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Speaker 5: So that's that's a pretty big deal.

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Speaker 4: Like when you're going out of your way to obstruct

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Speaker 4: justice to try and cover up a crime that's really

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Speaker 4: bad in America, and of all the trials out there,

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Speaker 4: if that one goes to court, not only is he

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Speaker 4: going to be found guilty and he will.

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Speaker 5: Go to jail. I'll tell you that right now. If

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Speaker 5: that happens, he is going to jail. Now.

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Speaker 4: The reason why I say if that happens is because

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Speaker 4: that has a one hundred percent chance of not being

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Speaker 4: before the election, and if Trump wins the election, he

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Speaker 4: is going to make sure that never gets to court.

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Speaker 4: So it's a really perverse situation where the election is

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Speaker 4: going to decide.

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Speaker 5: I think if Trump goes to jail, and.

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Speaker 2: Lawsuits are expensive, so how is he paying for all

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Speaker 2: of this? How does he fund these top brass lawyers

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Speaker 2: to keep representing him in all these different lawsuits?

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Speaker 4: Well, is he clear he's not funding top brass lawyers.

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Speaker 4: The top brass lawyers left the station a long time ago.

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Speaker 4: At this point in time, Trump is funding the lawyers

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Speaker 4: who are prepared to work for him, who are pretty

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Speaker 4: far off top brass. Like we're talking the C grade

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Speaker 4: team here now, it's not even the B grade team anymore. Honestly,

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Speaker 4: you're right. The lawsuits are expensive. Legal expenses are significant,

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Speaker 4: But if Trump actually cared about funding his own defense,

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Speaker 4: he can afford it easily. The man is worth billions

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Speaker 4: of dollars. Now, he's not paying for it because Trump

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Speaker 4: doesn't like spending that kind of money. What he's doing

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Speaker 4: is he's leveraging his enormous fundraising apparatus in the political

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Speaker 4: arena to get his poor supporters to pay for his

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Speaker 4: legal expenses instead. And so he, in combination with a

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Speaker 4: bunch of super PACs, have raised pretty much the entirety

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Speaker 4: of his legal expenses to date, which has been ah

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Speaker 4: off the top of my head, I think's about one

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty million dollars in total. That's basically entirely

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Speaker 4: paid for by his supporters.

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Speaker 2: And polling shows that Trump is ahead of President Joe Biden.

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Speaker 2: He's won an election before, he's also lost one. So

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Speaker 2: what can you tell me about his popularity in the

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Speaker 2: US at the moment.

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Speaker 4: It's really interesting that Donald Trump's popularity has not changed

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Speaker 4: a jot in the last four years. You look at

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Speaker 4: every pole. I'm not just talking about national polls. I'm

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Speaker 4: talking about state poles, unt my character polls. Wherever you ask,

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Speaker 4: they're the same numbers as he was getting four years ago.

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Speaker 4: They go up and down by one point, like it's

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Speaker 4: just Trump's numbers are stuck in concrete.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden, by contrast, is right across the board six

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Speaker 4: to ten points lower than he was four years ago.

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Speaker 4: And that's what's of concern to Joe Biden, because if

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Speaker 4: you recall, he only just beat Trump four years ago,

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Speaker 4: he can't afford to lose six to ten points. Having

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Speaker 4: said that, it's almost a cliche in American politics that

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Speaker 4: over your four years as president you tend to lose

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Speaker 4: popularity and they come back to you at the last second,

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Speaker 4: like the people who who aren't thoroughly satisfied with your

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Speaker 4: presidency but vote for you before take a look at

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Speaker 4: the alternative, and if they're scared of the alternative, which

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Speaker 4: is often the case, they then at the last second go, well,

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Speaker 4: I bear vote for the devil.

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Speaker 5: I know now in this case, they know both devils

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Speaker 5: pretty well.

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Speaker 4: So whether these people return to Biden or not like

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Speaker 4: they normally would in the last couple of months.

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Speaker 5: We will see.

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Speaker 4: But essentially, to answer your question, Trump is identical to

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Speaker 4: how he's been for basically six years, and Biden is

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Speaker 4: just gradually dropped.

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Speaker 5: Well, he's not dropping further anymore. He's bo themed out,

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Speaker 5: but he's he's got some coming back to do.

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Speaker 2: And just a final thought, are we any closer to

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Speaker 2: knowing who Donald Trump's pick to run as his vice

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Speaker 2: president might be?

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Speaker 4: No, but I think we know what characteristics that person

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Speaker 4: will have, and that is that person will be an

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Speaker 4: absolute scipher. They will offer nothing because Donald Trump does

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Speaker 4: not want someone to show him up. He wants to

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Speaker 4: be the center of attention. So whoever he picks there'll

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Speaker 4: be a complete nothing like Mike Pence. The one thing

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Speaker 4: you can be sure of is they will be very loyal.

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Speaker 2: Chas Lichdelo, thank you so much for joining the Daily

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Speaker 2: Hours today.

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Speaker 5: No anytime.

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Speaker 3: That was a fascinating chat. I think really easy to

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Speaker 3: get lost in the many cases that all seem to

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Speaker 3: be happening at once, and just really useful to have

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Speaker 3: that cut through, especially from Chaz who makes it somehow

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Speaker 3: entertaining and interesting all at once. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 3: listening to today's episode of The Daily Ohs. If you

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Speaker 3: enjoy what you hear, we would love you to hit

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Speaker 3: you every weekday morning, and means more people learn about

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Speaker 3: what we do. Have a great day. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 2: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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