1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,519
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,080
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,120
Speaker 2: on answers.

4
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: Now as a young man and even now as a

5
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,760
Speaker 1: dangerously close to fifty year old guy, my degree of

6
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:23,639
Speaker 1: interest in sensation seeking activities is massively higher than yours. Now,

7
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,120
Speaker 1: obviously we're talking about a sample size of one. But

8
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: you don't want to do the crazy stuff that I

9
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:28,360
Speaker 1: want to do.

10
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 3: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

11
00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,720
Speaker 3: and dad. All right, so we're rolling. Are you ready?

12
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 3: Let's do this?

13
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,200
Speaker 2: Do you really have to do? Doctor's Desk?

14
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,159
Speaker 3: I don't know why you don't like this.

15
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 1: It is literally the best podcast episode that we do

16
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:42,960
Speaker 1: every month.

17
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 2: You just need to say the name of the first

18
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,520
Speaker 2: journal article. Yeah, and you put me to sleep?

19
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,319
Speaker 1: Oh come on, don't be like okay, okay, so that

20
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,720
Speaker 1: we probably should do the intro. I'm doctor Justin Coulson,

21
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: You're Coylie, Miss Corn.

22
00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 3: Yeah I am.

23
00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,240
Speaker 1: And I'm just going to leave it here because that

24
00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: was very, very fun, and now everyone knows exactly how

25
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,479
Speaker 1: you feel about the podcast episode we're about to do today.

26
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,959
Speaker 1: This is literally the best podcast episode we do each month.

27
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,400
Speaker 1: And folks, this is what I have to deal with

28
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: every single month. When we start to do this, we.

29
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,479
Speaker 2: Just need another doctor sitting in the chair.

30
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to read, as you've requested, the title of

31
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,520
Speaker 1: the two journal articles that we're going to be emphasizing

32
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 1: in Today's Doctor's Desk podcast. If you're new to the podcast,

33
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,920
Speaker 1: Once a month I pull out a couple of articles

34
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: that are relevant to research that I'm doing for a

35
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,319
Speaker 1: book or an article, or just parenting generally, stuff that

36
00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,160
Speaker 1: I've come across that I think so interesting that I

37
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:35,840
Speaker 1: have to share it with you on the podcast and

38
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,080
Speaker 1: talk about it. And the first article that we're going

39
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 1: to talk about today comes from Lawrence Steinberg, literally the

40
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,760
Speaker 1: world's leading authority on adolescence.

41
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,199
Speaker 3: Such a great article.

42
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: The article is called sex Differences in the Developmental Trajectories

43
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 1: of Impulse control and Sensation seeking from Early adolescents to

44
00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,280
Speaker 1: early adulthood. It was published in the Journal of Youth

45
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:55,960
Speaker 1: and Adolescence.

46
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 2: Is he trying to make up his word count?

47
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 3: There's no word count? I think this is so.

48
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,080
Speaker 2: Do you remember when you were in high school and

49
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,160
Speaker 2: you had to write a five hundred word essay and

50
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,400
Speaker 2: you'd add a whole unnecessary words into your text you

51
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,200
Speaker 2: just to make up the word count.

52
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,040
Speaker 3: No, they make it so long. Well, I have listened

53
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:16,399
Speaker 3: to the title.

54
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 1: The second one that we're going to do, antecedents of

55
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: empathic capacity Emotion regulation styles as mediate is between controlling

56
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: versus autonomy, supportive maternal.

57
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,880
Speaker 3: Practices, and empathy.

58
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 2: This is.

59
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 3: Who talks I miss academia. I really do. I love it.

60
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 2: Do you ever hear anyone use those words in a

61
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 2: normal day to day conversation?

62
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 1: This is who you've married. Oh my god, So can

63
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,320
Speaker 1: we talk about them? Now that everyone knows where we're going. See,

64
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,079
Speaker 1: now that I've done that, people are probably switching the

65
00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,639
Speaker 1: podcast off and just going, yeah, no, not for me today.

66
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,760
Speaker 1: These are really important studies. Okay if you have boys.

67
00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,919
Speaker 1: If you have boys, the first study really matters a lot.

68
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,080
Speaker 1: And if you have children who you would like to

69
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:08,240
Speaker 1: have see more empathy in the second study is enormously important. Okay,

70
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,280
Speaker 1: there's so much Come on, I love you all right,

71
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 1: here we go. So the first article from Steinberg, Shulman,

72
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,519
Speaker 1: also Harden and Chin, Journal of Youth and Adolescence. I'm

73
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: just going to read a couple of lines out of

74
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,960
Speaker 1: the abstract and let's pull a couple of things out

75
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 1: of it. This one is super important. So first of all,

76
00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,000
Speaker 1: some context. We're looking at how males and females, and

77
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,960
Speaker 1: we're talking here about natal males, natal females, that is,

78
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 1: born male, born female, how they develop their impulse control

79
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,800
Speaker 1: and their sensation seeking. So these are two separate ideas.

80
00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: Impulse control. I want to do that, but I'm able

81
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,600
Speaker 1: to control it. It's like inhibition regulation.

82
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,000
Speaker 2: So stereotypically, when you say those words, I think of boys.

83
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 1: Yes, and rightly so, and the research would definitely bear

84
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 1: that out. It's stereotypical, but it's true. Now distributions overlap

85
00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 1: a lot of girls that struggle with impulse control, but

86
00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 1: only the ones the majority of them don't compared to

87
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 1: relative to boys the same age. In fact, there's some

88
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 1: incredible data in this study that's going to blow your mind.

89
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,480
Speaker 1: I'll come to that in a second, blow your mind.

90
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,800
Speaker 1: So impulse control develops differently to sensation seeking. They had

91
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,039
Speaker 1: different trajectories. Let me ask you, even before I dive

92
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 1: into the article, what would you anticipate would be the

93
00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,760
Speaker 1: trajectory of impulse control for males females both either neither,

94
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 1: whatever you like. How does impulse control develop.

95
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is what you're looking for,

96
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,080
Speaker 2: but I would suggest that girls develop impulse control a

97
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 2: lot earlier than boys do.

98
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,720
Speaker 1: Definitely, And we're going to get to some incredible data

99
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:44,359
Speaker 1: shortly on that.

100
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,600
Speaker 2: And then, you know, we've had conversations in the past.

101
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 2: You add alcohol to the equation and.

102
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,719
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're not going to get into that in

103
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,280
Speaker 1: today's podcast. That's adding a level of complexity that goes

104
00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 1: beyond what this research was about. But if so, you're

105
00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,279
Speaker 1: identifying that in terms of the trajectory of impulse control development,

106
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,839
Speaker 1: girls develop earlier than boys. Would you say that it

107
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,640
Speaker 1: continues to just grow step by step by step. Does

108
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,039
Speaker 1: it go up and down and fluctuate or is it

109
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: a fairly steady rise in impulse control as kids grow.

110
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,840
Speaker 2: I don't really know the answer to that. I think

111
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,919
Speaker 2: girls in general are actually more people pleases, which is

112
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,480
Speaker 2: why their impulse control actually lessens earlier on.

113
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, what about sensation seeking? Who seeks sensation

114
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 1: more boys or girls?

115
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:29,919
Speaker 2: Boys?

116
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

117
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,679
Speaker 1: Okay, so decades of research would support that. Once again,

118
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: does sensation seeking just keep on going up as we

119
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: get older? Is it incrementally up and down roller coaster ride.

120
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:41,479
Speaker 1: What would you anticipate.

121
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,800
Speaker 2: I think that as you mature, generally speaking, that sensation

122
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 2: seeking would lessen over time. But I think it's a

123
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:50,720
Speaker 2: maturity thing.

124
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to talk about what the shows in

125
00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 1: just a second. Let me tell you about this study.

126
00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 1: So essentially, what Shulman, Steinberg and colleagues have said is

127
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 1: that it's been proposed that we see high rates of

128
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 1: risk taking in adolescence partly because of the neurobiological development's

129
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 1: going on. It's a brain development issue, right, and as

130
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,600
Speaker 1: your brain develops more, you become less inclined to seek sensations.

131
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 1: That's the overall general proposal.

132
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 3: Now, there's some really.

133
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,960
Speaker 1: Clever research that highlights that there are some big holes,

134
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,640
Speaker 1: some big flaws with that argument, but that's what most

135
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 1: people will fall back on as a stereotype.

136
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 3: That's what we'll accept.

137
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 1: And as a result of the lack of neurobiological development,

138
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 1: kids are more likely to seek seek sensations and also

139
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,920
Speaker 1: have lower impulse control. Impulse control is still developing. Then, Okay,

140
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,960
Speaker 1: what these researchers we're trying to do is get access

141
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: to really good data showing whether the pattern's the same

142
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,240
Speaker 1: for boys and girls, males and females, And so they

143
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,920
Speaker 1: got a really good sized number, eight and a half

144
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,320
Speaker 1: thousand people into this study, and what they essentially found

145
00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:02,200
Speaker 1: was that sensation seeking rise and falls, It goes up

146
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,279
Speaker 1: and then it drops off. As you said, with maturity,

147
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,640
Speaker 1: impulse control continues to increase into the twenties. What they found, though,

148
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 1: as you've also highlighted, is that males exhibit higher levels

149
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,320
Speaker 1: of sensation seeking and also lower levels of impulse controlled.

150
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:21,440
Speaker 2: Do they know why.

151
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: Compared to females. We think that it's well, yes, there's

152
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons. Number one, females start puberty earlier.

153
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: Females are more neurologically mature, Like we know that by

154
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 1: the time they're about eighteen, girls are as much as

155
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:39,240
Speaker 1: two years.

156
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,400
Speaker 3: More neurologically advanced.

157
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 1: There's also some socialization stuff going on, but I think

158
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 1: it goes into a there's a whole lot more happening,

159
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 1: things like testosterone. This is the hormone that genuinely dominates

160
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 1: and divides males from females. It's such an important hormone.

161
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,960
Speaker 1: So there's hormones, there's brain development. This is a really

162
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 1: highly vulnerable time, and it seems as though risk taking

163
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 1: during adolescence is greater in magnitude and also lasts for

164
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,520
Speaker 1: a whole lot longer in boys than girls.

165
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 2: So tell me what age is impulse control at its lowest.

166
00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 1: What's I think really fascinating about this research is when

167
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,040
Speaker 1: we look at both males and females together, impulse control

168
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 1: drops from the age of ten through until around about

169
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,680
Speaker 1: the age of fourteen and fifteen, Okay, when we look

170
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 1: at the entire population together, and then it increases slowly

171
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: back up until the age of twenty five, where it's

172
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 1: at its highest in this study. I would imagine it

173
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 1: continues to increase even after the age of twenty five,

174
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 1: but that wasn't researched. What's fascinating to me, though, is

175
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 1: the difference between males and females on impulse control.

176
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 2: Get this, Are you about to blow my mind?

177
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 3: I'm about to blow your mind.

178
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 1: I'm looking right now at the female male grid and

179
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,440
Speaker 1: comparing it to the male and what it shows, Kylie,

180
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: is that a twenty five year old male exhibits the

181
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 1: same level of impulse control as a ten year old female.

182
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding, I'm legit. Look at you. This is

183
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,000
Speaker 1: fair income.

184
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,680
Speaker 2: At EBS explains so much.

185
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 1: Okay, So to put this into context, that twenty five

186
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,800
Speaker 1: year old male is showing a slightly higher level of

187
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 1: impulse control than a fourteen or fifteen year old female

188
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 1: because remember I said impulse control drops for both males

189
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,720
Speaker 1: and females from the age of ten down to about

190
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,480
Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen. But here's the fascinating thing. For females, their

191
00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 1: impulse control drops quite substantially from ten through to fourteen fifteen.

192
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,199
Speaker 1: For males, it drops like any bit because it's already

193
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 1: so done low. It's like we've got this floor effect,

194
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,199
Speaker 1: like you can't get much lower boys, but from the

195
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: age of ten. But it does drop just marginally from

196
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen, whereas girls, there's a really defined drop

197
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,120
Speaker 1: from ten through to fifteen. Then the girls escalate back

198
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 1: up again really really fast. It's a short window. I'm

199
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 1: going to say that the window where girls are the

200
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 1: lowest is really from about the age of twelve to fifteen.

201
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,400
Speaker 1: That's their lowest window, and then all of a sudden

202
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 1: they're good again. Whereas the boys, they're already super low

203
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,440
Speaker 1: at the age of ten. They drop a little more

204
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,319
Speaker 1: until they're about fourteen and fifteen, and then ever so

205
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 1: slowly they climb back up until at the age of

206
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,880
Speaker 1: twenty five their impulse controllers where girls were at ten.

207
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,600
Speaker 3: Wow, did that plow mind?

208
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 2: Does it keep getting better?

209
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: Well, we don't know, but as I said before, my

210
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,880
Speaker 1: guess would be, because we don't have the data in

211
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,800
Speaker 1: this particular paper, my guess would be that impulse control

212
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,559
Speaker 1: continues to get better. But I mean, let's face it,

213
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,320
Speaker 1: you and I are in our forties now, and while

214
00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,599
Speaker 1: we have pretty good impulse control, if the cake's in

215
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,080
Speaker 1: the fridge, you're going to eat it. And if the

216
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 1: icing's on the cake, who's going to eat? And if

217
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,440
Speaker 1: the icing's on the cake, I'm going to lick it

218
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 1: all off. And obviously impulse control changes depending on how

219
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,680
Speaker 1: tired we are and how hungry we are, and what

220
00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,200
Speaker 1: our goals are and our values and so on. So

221
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 1: I think that it does get better as we get older.

222
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 1: But the critical thing here is that boys and impulse

223
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,320
Speaker 1: control just super super super low relative to females.

224
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,000
Speaker 2: So what about sensation seeking, Because you obviously suggested that

225
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 2: they are on different trajectories.

226
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: They are, and what we find with sensation seeking for

227
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 1: both girls and boys, is that sensation seeking is at

228
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 1: its lowest, that is, least lowest level of let me

229
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 1: do crazy stuff once again around the age of ten

230
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 1: or eleven, and we see a really steady climb in

231
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 1: sensation seeking until a round about the age of fourteen,

232
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,680
Speaker 1: and that's where for girls at.

233
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:35,680
Speaker 3: Pretty much levels off.

234
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,439
Speaker 1: When I say levels off, it stays at that level

235
00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 1: from fourteen through until a round about the age of

236
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,720
Speaker 1: eighteen somewhere in there, and then it declines pretty rapidly

237
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 1: until at the age of twenty five it's back where

238
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 1: the sensation seeking was at the age of twelve for females.

239
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: But when we look at it for boys, they're already

240
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 1: much higher than the girls anyway, but they accelerate super

241
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,679
Speaker 1: fast from ten through to fourteen, but then they keep

242
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 1: on accelerating. It eases off a little bit to sixteen seventeen,

243
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 1: and then it spikes again around about eighteen nineteen, and

244
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,880
Speaker 1: then it pretty much stays there until they're twenty four

245
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 1: and then it drops off a little bit. So, I mean,

246
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 1: this is a controversial topic, and especially with the way

247
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,840
Speaker 1: the world is right now, and this idea that there's

248
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,200
Speaker 1: a blue brain and a pink brain. I'll hang on. No,

249
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,320
Speaker 1: there's not. It's delusions of gender. There are all of

250
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 1: these things that are being spoken about and written about

251
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 1: in terms of gender and sex differences. From a responsible

252
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 1: science perspective, it's undeniable that boys and girls differ. Obviously,

253
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,679
Speaker 1: there is continuum, and there are some boys who are

254
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,840
Speaker 1: very very low on sensation seeking and super great with

255
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,120
Speaker 1: impulse control. But they are in the exception. Those distributions

256
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 1: overlap only on the extremes they are different. There are

257
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 1: real differences there. And I find this data from Steinber

258
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 1: and Shulman so compelling when you look at the way

259
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,600
Speaker 1: they've done the study and look at what they've reported.

260
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 1: It's just such a compelling thing. And I look at

261
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,360
Speaker 1: it and I think to myself as a young man,

262
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,960
Speaker 1: and even now as a dangerously close to fifty year

263
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,079
Speaker 1: old guy, my degree of interest in sensation seeking activities

264
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,240
Speaker 1: is massively higher than yours. Now, obviously we're talking about

265
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,600
Speaker 1: a sample size of one. But you don't want to

266
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,080
Speaker 1: do the crazy stuff that I want to do.

267
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,199
Speaker 3: Hey, I went river boarding, Yeah you did, you.

268
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,000
Speaker 2: Did, But that wasn't thrial seeking enough for you.

269
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 1: I really wanted to do the bungee swing, and I

270
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,000
Speaker 1: love to serve big waves, and I love to ride

271
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 1: my bike fast downhills, and you know what I mean,

272
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 1: there's that sensation seeking element that I think is just

273
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,760
Speaker 1: so so profoundly different between males and females on average.

274
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,760
Speaker 2: Well, look, you blew my mind so much that we

275
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 2: don't have time for this second.

276
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 1: No, we have to do it, but we're going to

277
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,079
Speaker 1: do it really really quick. Ok, this is in three

278
00:13:59,160 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 1: minutes or less.

279
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Well, after the title you send with me,

280
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 2: I think you've used your three minutes up.

281
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:06,640
Speaker 3: All right. So this one was about empathy.

282
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 1: Is by an Israeli research called Guy Roth, who is

283
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 1: one of my favorite researchers in the entire whole wide world.

284
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,280
Speaker 1: And what they've basically done is they've got a whole

285
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 1: bunch of kids, one hundred and forty seven college students.

286
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,319
Speaker 1: They've also brought them, brought them together with their close friends,

287
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:19,760
Speaker 1: and they've said, we want to get you to fill

288
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,080
Speaker 1: in this survey. So the college students have filled in

289
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 1: a survey all about the way their mums behave with

290
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 1: them and the way they regulate their emotions, both individually

291
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 1: and together. And then they've asked the friends, what sort

292
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 1: of empathy and sympathy do you get from our participant

293
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 1: over here who's just filled in that survey? What are

294
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 1: they like when you're having an emotional moment? And what

295
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 1: they've basically found is this, when kids perceive their parents

296
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 1: as being empathic, willing to take their perspective, and then

297
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,520
Speaker 1: I guess autonomy, supportive choice providing when they say, well,

298
00:14:58,560 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: it looks like you're having a tough time. What do

299
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 1: you think you need to do here? How can I

300
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 1: support you? Those kids end up being reported by their

301
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 1: friends to be vastly more empathic, wonderfully sympathetic, absolutely willing

302
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 1: to engage with their friend and their difficulties, with lots

303
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 1: of caring and lots of concern, like they really emotionally

304
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 1: step into the space and they're there to support them.

305
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 1: Whereas the kids who are raised in homes where the

306
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,800
Speaker 1: parents are emotionally I guess distant, They don't take their

307
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 1: child's perspective. They just sell them to suck it up.

308
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 1: You'll be right, Stop being a big souk. Come on,

309
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 1: get on with it. This is you being ridiculous now

310
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,800
Speaker 1: calm down, stop it whatever, and often tell the kids

311
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 1: what to do. What guy Roth and his associates in

312
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 1: this study found is that those people were reported as

313
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 1: being much more emotionally distressed when their friend was experiencing

314
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 1: an emotional reaction, and so they were more aversively engaged emotionally.

315
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 1: They were more self centered with their emotions. They'd be

316
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: saying things like I can't believe you're doing this to me,

317
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 1: or like it was just a lack of empathy.

318
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 3: They didn't know how they were emotionally stunted. I guess

319
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 3: is what I'm saying here.

320
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 2: So would that be the same case for parents who

321
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,120
Speaker 2: are more just apathetic, Like it's not even a you know,

322
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 2: suck it up, princess kind of thing, it's just a

323
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 2: you know, I've got other things that are more important.

324
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 3: It would be.

325
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: And I think there's a couple of things going on here.

326
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 1: Number one, there's modeling, right, So, when you've got a

327
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 1: parent who takes your perspective and then says, well, I

328
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 1: want to give you some choices here, what do you

329
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 1: think you should do? How are we going to work

330
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: this out? They're modeling empathy and they're modeling what it

331
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: means to support another person's psychological needs. Whereas if you've

332
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 1: got an apathetic parent, or even a parent who's pushing

333
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,680
Speaker 1: against the child and saying, come on, this is you're

334
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 1: being ridiculous. Stop it now, you've cried long enough.

335
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:45,760
Speaker 3: Get on with it.

336
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 1: When you've got that going on, what you're showing is

337
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 1: obviously unhelpful modeling. But more than that, you're placing the

338
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 1: relationship on a lower rung than your own personal comfort

339
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: with emotions. You're elevating your need to be comfortable over

340
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 1: your over the other person's emotional distress. You're also suggesting

341
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,919
Speaker 1: to them that they're not competent in managing their emotions.

342
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,680
Speaker 1: You're indicating that they're incapable and incompetent. And thirdly, you're

343
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,680
Speaker 1: taking away their sense of agency and control because you're

344
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 1: telling them what to feel and how to feel it

345
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 1: and getting mad at them for not feeling it the

346
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 1: way you want them to feel it right now, right here.

347
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 1: Sort of thing. So my new book, I'm going to

348
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 1: put in a plug for the new book, The Pairing Revolution.

349
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,640
Speaker 1: It's out right now. That's kind of well, no, it's

350
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 1: not kind of. That's precisely what Guy Roth and his

351
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,880
Speaker 1: associates have discovered here. If you can be a need

352
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,720
Speaker 1: supportive parent, which is what the pairing revolution is actually

353
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: all about. You teach your kids how to be much

354
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 1: more empathic, you teach them how to be good friends.

355
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 1: You teach them that stuff because you're modeling it partly,

356
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: but also because you're supporting their needs.

357
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not quite sure we made it in three mans.

358
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,840
Speaker 3: Now we did. We did, seriously like I did. Okay,

359
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 3: really really close.

360
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 1: So we will link. We need to wrap up. Well,

361
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 1: do you have any questions about those studies? Would you

362
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 1: like to ask the professor or anything about the science

363
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 1: we've talked about today.

364
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 2: No, I think we've talked about it enough.

365
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 3: Thank you. This you've got intrigued. You actually got intrigued.

366
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 3: You liked this podcast episode.

367
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 2: You blew my mind, honey, you blew my mind.

368
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 1: The Happy Family's Podcasts is produced by Justin Roland from

369
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and he

370
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 1: reckons that this is a monthly staple that needs to stay.

371
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 3: You're the only one. You're the only one we will live.

372
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 1: We'll link to the studies that I've shared in the

373
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 1: show notes in case you'd like to look them up

374
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,639
Speaker 1: and find more information about than They really are fascinating

375
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,120
Speaker 1: and thank you so much.

376
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,199
Speaker 2: Make sure you've got your PhD handy so you can

377
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:40,120
Speaker 2: under standard.

378
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,479
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening.

379
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with I'll Do Better Tomorrow on

380
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast