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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just on answers me ow. Hello.

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Speaker 1: This is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 1: dot com, dot you and Channel nine's parental Guidance, parenting

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Speaker 1: expert and co host. So glad to be able to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation today with Dave Edwards. Dave is a

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Speaker 1: Gidget Foundation ambassador. He's got two kids aged eight and six.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who are not familiar with the

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Speaker 1: Gidget Foundation, the Gidget Foundation is an organization that raises

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Speaker 1: awareness of perry natal anxiety and depression. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I discovered a number of years ago,

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Speaker 1: actually when I was working with Beyond Blue, is that

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Speaker 1: women aren't the only ones that end up with personatal

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Speaker 1: or depression from time to time. Men can as well.

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Speaker 1: As you know. I've got a brand new book out

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Speaker 1: it's called Dad's Guide to Pregnancy for Dummies, and it's

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Speaker 1: something that I didn't make a mention of and I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling like it was a bit remissive me. Fortunately, I'm

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Speaker 1: working on another dummies book for Dad soon. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make sure that it ends up in the book.

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Speaker 1: But Dave Edwards, ambassador for the Gidget Foundation, joins me

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Speaker 1: now to have a conversation about men and periatal depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety and expectant and new fathers. Hey, Dave, what

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Speaker 1: can you tell us about this?

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Speaker 2: Firstly, thanks Justin for having me on. I want to

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Speaker 2: preface this by saying that I can really only talk

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Speaker 2: about I guess my own lived experience. But my experience

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Speaker 2: of postnatal depression anxiety was experiencing anxiety and depression in

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Speaker 2: the months after the birth. There's often two definitions used,

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Speaker 2: so peri natal, so that covers from our conception through

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Speaker 2: to a year after the birth. So for my experience,

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Speaker 2: my mental health declined after yeah, the birth of our

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Speaker 2: first child.

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Speaker 1: And how did you see that happening? What was what

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Speaker 1: were the big telltale signs that gave you that signal

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Speaker 1: that things are not right here.

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Speaker 2: I went into father would thinking that my expectations would

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Speaker 2: go I guess to plan, and my partner did as well,

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Speaker 2: you know, that would have that sort of Hollywood moment

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Speaker 2: of having a quite a straightforward birth process and that

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Speaker 2: we would just I guess figure out parenting. Really, that

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Speaker 2: was certainly far from from our experience so yeah, my

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Speaker 2: partner had I guess, quite a traumatic labor. She was

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Speaker 2: in labor for ten hours and then had to have

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Speaker 2: an emergency C section following that to deliver the baby.

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Speaker 2: As you can imagine, when you go into that birthing experience,

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Speaker 2: especially for your first child, you really don't have any

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Speaker 2: other sort of, I guess frame of reference to sort

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Speaker 2: of know what to expect.

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Speaker 1: How well prepped were you. Have you read the books,

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Speaker 1: have you done the classes, or are you sort of

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Speaker 1: showing up thinking what regard to the hospital have a

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Speaker 1: baby now.

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Speaker 2: When I went to anti natal classes, even then, I

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Speaker 2: sort of felt like it was really designed for my

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Speaker 2: partner really, and I was just a part of the support.

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Speaker 1: I guess depending on where you go, the quality of

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Speaker 1: the education that happens in those antieta classes can differ widely,

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Speaker 1: So sometimes you're more than just the appended yawning beside

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Speaker 1: the woman who's going to give birth to this baby.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes that's all you see it as, and other times

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Speaker 1: it's really tailored for what you can do to be

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Speaker 1: the very best support that you can, which was one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that I wrote The Dad's Guide to

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Speaker 1: Pregnancy because I want dads to be in that situation,

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Speaker 1: know what to expect and know how they can make

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Speaker 1: a difference. And obviously you were standing there kind of going, oh,

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Speaker 1: they didn't tell me about this in the in and

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Speaker 1: out of classes. I'm a little bit lost here.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and certainly that was my experience was

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Speaker 2: that it was just really surreal having you know, I

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Speaker 2: guess expecting that you know, the birth would go a

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Speaker 2: certain way, and then to be much more complicated, I guess,

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Speaker 2: a shock to the system. And on top of that,

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Speaker 2: I guess my first anxiety symptoms happened at the delivery

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Speaker 2: of the baby because I was handed a screaming baby

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Speaker 2: following the C sections. So from that perspective, it was

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Speaker 2: game on, you know, very very early.

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Speaker 1: And there's there's that element, isn't there of what do

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Speaker 1: you want me to do with this baby? Do you

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Speaker 1: mean now it's on me? I don't know what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing now. I'm really interested about this challenge of the

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Speaker 1: anxiety and in many case the postonality depression that shows up.

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Speaker 1: Did your wife also experience it or was it solely

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Speaker 1: you because they do often happen together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, so it was certainly an experience. I think

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Speaker 2: our experiences were very different, and I think that that's

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Speaker 2: probably a key takeaway that I learned as well going

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Speaker 2: through the process that I guess your partner can only

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Speaker 2: know you know what you're thinking and feeling if you

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Speaker 2: talk about it, And that was certainly a key sort

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Speaker 2: of issue I guess in those early stages was we

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Speaker 2: were dealing with a what we would discover a baby

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Speaker 2: with reflux symptoms and having a situation where I guess

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Speaker 2: didn't have the quick fixes that I'd probably sort of

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Speaker 2: learned in my work, career and life. I guess to

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Speaker 2: that point, I was quite confident in being able to

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Speaker 2: sort of resolve issues. But when you're dealing with a screaming,

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Speaker 2: very unsettled baby that's got reflux, you learned very quickly

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Speaker 2: that that doesn't pan out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, been there. Our first one was just like that

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Speaker 1: in so many ways, Dave, How did you know that

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Speaker 1: what you were experiencing was a mental health issue and

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Speaker 1: not exhaustion and overwhelmed and not just being out of

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Speaker 1: your depth? How did you know that it was something more?

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Speaker 2: I think because of the prolonged nature of what I

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Speaker 2: was feeling, so I just wasn't getting a lot of joy.

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Speaker 2: I started feeling quite guilty. I even't had sort of

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Speaker 2: feelings of, well, I think I'm the problem here as well.

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Speaker 2: So it was, I guess, my first sort of experience

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Speaker 2: of what I've often heard people describe as shame. I

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Speaker 2: guess the other thing too, was I went back to

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Speaker 2: work after five weeks as well, and my boss sort

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Speaker 2: of said to me at the time, you know, you're

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Speaker 2: being quite distracted at work as well. That was, I

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Speaker 2: guess a sign that my mind just wasn't at work.

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Speaker 2: I was always thinking about what was going on at home.

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Speaker 1: I had the same experience. My boss called me to

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Speaker 1: the office my performance was slumping. I was very fortunate

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Speaker 1: to have a boss who spoke to me gently and said,

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Speaker 1: there's been a lot going on for you, how can

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Speaker 1: we help. That support from an employment context was so

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Speaker 1: critical for helping me to navigate the significant challenges of

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Speaker 1: a newborn baby, not knowing what to do, dealing with reflux,

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Speaker 1: dealing with sleep deprivation, and all of those challenges. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking with Dave Edwards. He is a Gidget Foundation ambassador

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Speaker 1: about men's perinatal depression and anxiety. Sometimes being a parent

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Speaker 1: can be staggeringly hard work, and as a dad, an

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Speaker 1: issue that's often overlooked in those early days after a

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Speaker 1: baby is born and early months after a baby is

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Speaker 1: born is perinatal depression and anxiety. It doesn't just happen

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Speaker 1: for mums, it can happen for dads as well. Edwards

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Speaker 1: has been joining me for a conversation Dave Is with

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Speaker 1: the Gidget Foundation. Dave, why do you think that some

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Speaker 1: fathers are really reluctant to seek mental health help when

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Speaker 1: it comes to something like perinatal or postnatal depression and anxiety.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a really good question, and I think

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Speaker 2: that it's the question that needs to continue to be asked.

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Speaker 2: I think we do. We know statistics show that you know,

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Speaker 2: one in ten dads will experience these type of symptoms.

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Speaker 2: We also know that not a lot of dads actually

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Speaker 2: know that postonal depression, anxiety actually impact men. I think

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Speaker 2: it's it's a combination of education, but also the fact that,

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Speaker 2: certainly from my experience, I internalize a lot of what

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Speaker 2: I was experiencing because I felt like my only job

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Speaker 2: to do was really to support my wife. I felt

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Speaker 2: like I was failing that one role. In some respects.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I didn't. I guess have permission to wing.

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Speaker 2: I guess about my struggles because you know, my partner

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Speaker 2: had a physically taxing birth and and obviously becoming a

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Speaker 2: mother herself for the first time. So quite often what

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Speaker 2: happens is you sometimes wonder how relevant your feelings and

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Speaker 2: emotions are after the birth.

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Speaker 1: We've got this stereotype, We've got data that shows that

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Speaker 1: a lot of dad's are reluctant to seek help. What

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Speaker 1: was it that made you reach out and where did

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Speaker 1: you go? What did you do?

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Speaker 2: Basically, my experience culminated in a evening where I had felt,

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Speaker 2: for the first time in my parenting journey that I'd

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Speaker 2: settled our child at night, And unfortunately, five minutes after that,

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Speaker 2: Bub woke up screaming, and so I basically lost it

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Speaker 2: at that point and scream my head off at our bub.

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Speaker 1: And how old was the baby at this point?

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Speaker 2: So about three months?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you had And in that moment, you feel like

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Speaker 1: it's the rational thing to do to tell that child off,

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Speaker 1: because if you just tell them how annoyed and upset

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Speaker 1: and tired and over it you are, that they're actually

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Speaker 1: going to go to sleep. I don't know why we

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Speaker 1: think that's going to change anything. It's it's obviously not helpful,

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Speaker 1: but we kind of feel like we need to release it.

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Speaker 1: And you don't feel any better, do you?

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Speaker 2: No? Absolutely, And it was it felt like an out

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Speaker 2: of body experience too. And because I'm a really laid

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Speaker 2: back sort of guy, even just that reaction was surreal

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Speaker 2: because I felt like it was probably a build up,

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Speaker 2: a build up over you know, you know a number

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Speaker 2: of months of as you were saying, exhaustion, sleep deprivation, rumination,

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Speaker 2: just feeling anxious and just not getting any enjoyment in life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're feeling You're feeling incompetent, right, like, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm so good at work, I know what I'm doing there.

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Speaker 1: Why can't I fix this one little problem here? It

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be that hard.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely absolutely. And so for me, that was

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Speaker 2: how I became aware that I had even personal anxiety

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Speaker 2: and depression. Was I went to see a doctor about

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Speaker 2: how I was feeling, and she asked me a series

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Speaker 2: of questions and I found out that going through that

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Speaker 2: interview with the doctor, towards the end of it, she said, well,

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Speaker 2: do you know that men also can experience personal anxiety

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Speaker 2: and depression, and I didn't you know, that was a

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Speaker 2: surprise to me. But I'm really pleased that I had

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Speaker 2: that conversation because it actually validated everything that I was

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Speaker 2: feeling as well. And I look back on that day

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Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful for that doctor to actually, you know,

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Speaker 2: have acknowledged that experience for me. So, I guess in

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Speaker 2: terms of how I essentially dealt with it was after

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Speaker 2: that sort of screaming session that was kind of what's

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Speaker 2: maybe sort of take stock of how I was feeling.

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Speaker 2: And it was the first time I actually spoke to

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Speaker 2: my wife honestly about what was going on in my

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Speaker 2: mind as well, which I in hindsight, I'm really grateful

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Speaker 2: that I had taken that brave leap to have that conversation.

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Speaker 2: I started to look at just ways to emotionally regulate better.

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Speaker 2: So i'd actually during try attempts, I guess, to settle

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Speaker 2: bub you know, I'd listen to calming music. Music's always

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Speaker 2: been something for me that helps me with my emotions.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I know, I put my headphones in and

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Speaker 2: as I was rocking, you know, I just i'd listen

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Speaker 2: to music kind of in line with how I was

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Speaker 2: wanting to feel at the time, doing quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of reading as well at that time you asked me

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Speaker 2: before about reading. It sort of drove me to try

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Speaker 2: and better understand, you know, what was going on for me.

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Speaker 2: And also part of it too was I decided to

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Speaker 2: start up a reflux dad's group as well, so disappear

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Speaker 2: support group. Was I the only one, or you know,

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Speaker 2: was there other dads out there that had experienced the

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Speaker 2: same sort of thing, And that was really really helpful

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Speaker 2: to validating through peer connections. And that's why I really

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Speaker 2: do admire what Gidget Foundation are doing, because they're providing,

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Speaker 2: you know, avenues, you know, for new parents to get together.

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Speaker 2: You know, even through services such as Facebook groups, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of shared wisdom and knowledge in those support

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Speaker 2: group environments. And as you mentioned before, justin you know,

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Speaker 2: just consolidated for me that I actually wasn't alone. And

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Speaker 2: I think that that's one of the biggest things that

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Speaker 2: we often, I think sometimes think as man is if

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling weak, I must be the only man alive

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Speaker 2: that's feeling that way. And it's such a myth, it's

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Speaker 2: so not true.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the highlights of taking action. There are

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Speaker 1: things that you can do. If there are any parents

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Speaker 1: who are listened to this who are thinking this sounds

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Speaker 1: like either me or the man in my life, where

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Speaker 1: would they go to get more info, more help, the

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Speaker 1: guidance and direction that they could potentially deal with in

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Speaker 1: a situation like this do with absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I think my experience happened eight years ago. So the

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Speaker 2: services available now though I didn't realize there were services

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Speaker 2: like Gidget Foundation. Had I known, I definitely would have

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Speaker 2: reached out for support. But yes, you've got telehealth appointments

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Speaker 2: where dads can see a psychologist through that telehealth mechanism.

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Speaker 2: There's an SMS for Dad service that Richard Fletcher heads

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Speaker 2: up at the University of Newcastle. The Gidget Virtual Village

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Speaker 2: for Dads is a great resource. You know, if you

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Speaker 2: want to connect with dads and you don't have an

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Speaker 2: established group, long go on are the days where you

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Speaker 2: know you need to have a you know, a meeting

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Speaker 2: group in a park. You know, there's a whole range

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Speaker 2: of different COVID safe options for dads to be able

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Speaker 2: to meet and also discrete services where they can I

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Speaker 2: guess essentially choose the method that they want to initially

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Speaker 2: engage in those services, and then obviously you've got the

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Speaker 2: Panda hotline as well for telephone support during the week

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll put all of those resources into our

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Speaker 1: show notes so that people can get the help that

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Speaker 1: they need. Dave Edwards, Gidget Foundation Ambassador and dad to

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Speaker 1: two kids who has been through perinatal anxiety and depression.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for sharing your story on the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me Justin.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if

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Speaker 1: you'd like morifol about making your family happier, check out

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Speaker 1: those links in the show notes, particularly if this is

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Speaker 1: an issue that affects you or somebody that you love,

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Speaker 1: and visit us at Happy Families dot com dot au.