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Speaker 1: A lack of empathy is kind of being fostered online,

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Speaker 1: and then that comes out of our phones into the

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Speaker 1: real world, and then that exists in the real world,

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Speaker 1: and that comes back into our phones, and we're just

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Speaker 1: swimming in it.

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Speaker 2: Are you scared of saying the wrong thing at work

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Speaker 2: or perhaps in your non work life. Claire Stevens, who's

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Speaker 2: the former editor in chief at Mamma Mia, knows this

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Speaker 2: fear intimately. She once wrote an article so tone deaf

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Speaker 2: about only fans that the backlash consumed her completely. But

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Speaker 2: here's what's fascinating. It wasn't the angry voice notes that

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Speaker 2: changed her mind. It was the people who took time

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Speaker 2: to explain why she'd hurt them. By the end of

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Speaker 2: my conversation with Claire, you will have a completely different

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Speaker 2: framework for handling criticism, for making apologies that actually work,

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Speaker 2: and for leading without constantly second guessing yourself. Plus, Claire

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Speaker 2: reveals the decision making hack that helped her walk away

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Speaker 2: from her dream job to build something entirely of her own.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,

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Speaker 2: and strategies.

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Speaker 3: For optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber.

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Speaker 2: I know that you've spent a lot of time thinking

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Speaker 2: about an analyzing cancel culture and what happens when people

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Speaker 2: get canceled? What do people misunderstand? Still, do you think

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Speaker 2: about getting canceled and cancel culture?

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Speaker 1: It's interesting I often try to avoid despite having a

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Speaker 1: podcast that was called Canceled, a common podcast that kind

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Speaker 1: of looked at celebrity crimes and made fun of it all,

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Speaker 1: I try to avoid using the term cancel culture just

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Speaker 1: because I think it brings in a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: that has really subjective meaning to different people. For example,

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Speaker 1: councel culture can bring up Harvey Weinstein and you think, okay,

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Speaker 1: well that is somebody who was convicted of serious crimes

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Speaker 1: and went to prison, and in terms of being canceled, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: actually that makes sense. Whereas I like to think instead

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Speaker 1: about the idea of public shaming or the social media pylon.

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Speaker 1: John Ronson wrote a book I think it was twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: So You've been Publicly Shamed, which I loved at the

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Speaker 1: time and I think has become even more relevant you

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Speaker 1: over a decade later, where I think what people really

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Speaker 1: misunderstand is the deep psychological emotional experience of being at

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Speaker 1: the center of Internet outrage. In particular, I think when

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Speaker 1: we live online, which so many of us do, when

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Speaker 1: you are being ostracized and dehumanized and and even just

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Speaker 1: criticized from all angles, it feels really, really, really suffocating,

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Speaker 1: and it feels like you don't belong and you have

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Speaker 1: no worth and you have no purpose. And I think

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Speaker 1: the other thing is you're not really when you're in

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Speaker 1: the thick of that emotional experience, you're not meant to

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Speaker 1: talk about it because if you talk about it, you're

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Speaker 1: centering yourself and you're not thinking about all the bad

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Speaker 1: things that you've done. So that's the part of it

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Speaker 1: that I am fascinated by. I studied psychology, and I'm

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Speaker 1: really fascinated by the idea of shame and whether it's

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Speaker 1: a motivator or not, and whether public shaming, for example,

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Speaker 1: actually changes anyone's minds.

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Speaker 4: I'd love to know, Claire, have you experienced this yourself?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think to a very small extent. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a very important person.

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Speaker 4: Stop it.

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Speaker 5: It's not working.

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Speaker 1: In media, I wrote an article that was about only

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Speaker 1: fans when OnlyFans first came out, and the tone was

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Speaker 1: just wrong.

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Speaker 5: It was just wrong.

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Speaker 1: It was insensitive. I was trying to be funny. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't funny. It was actually incredibly ironically dehumanizing of sex workers.

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Speaker 1: It just I cringed when I think about it. And

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Speaker 1: when I wrote that article, I got a lot of

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of comments criticizing it, and I

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Speaker 1: actually got a few very detailed emails that went through

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Speaker 1: why people were hurt by it. And it was the

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Speaker 1: emails that made me think, now, hold on, you've got

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Speaker 1: a point here. You're right, And I ended up deleting it,

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Speaker 1: taking it down, because I was like, na, this isn't

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Speaker 1: what I meant to do. But I do remember at

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Speaker 1: that time I also got voice notes. People would send

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Speaker 1: voice notes that were literally just shouting at me, and weirdly,

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Speaker 1: I thought, had I not had the people who were

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Speaker 1: gracious and kind enough to actually tell me why what

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Speaker 1: I had done was offensive, I might have actually got defensive.

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Speaker 1: I might've actually been like, hey, stop attacking me and

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Speaker 1: doubled down. So I'm really glad that people took the

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Speaker 1: time to explain it, because they don't owe.

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Speaker 4: Me that, so can I ask?

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Speaker 5: Then?

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Speaker 2: With that OnlyFans example, it sounds like that happened a

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Speaker 2: few years.

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Speaker 4: Ago do you remember how you worked through that? I

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Speaker 4: guess psychologically, but also just practically.

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Speaker 5: It really pulls you in. I was obsessed.

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Speaker 1: I remember just being on my phone and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: get off it, and I was at my parents' place,

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Speaker 1: and my sister and my brother's were like, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Like?

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Speaker 5: Who cares?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 5: These people are random? Who cares to me?

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Speaker 1: It was the most important thing in the world that

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Speaker 1: I felt like I'd been misunderstood and there were people

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Speaker 1: thinking things about me that weren't true. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to yell back, like, that wasn't my attention, That's not

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Speaker 1: what I meant. That was meant to be a joke,

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Speaker 1: like those sorts of things. But then I think you've

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Speaker 1: kind of got to distinguish between if somebody's yelled at you,

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Speaker 1: calling you names, there's probably not a lot of utility

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Speaker 1: that's going to come from that, But if somebody sends

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Speaker 1: something that's really well thought out, that's the way to

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Speaker 1: engage in a conversation and to change someone's mind.

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Speaker 2: What were the lasting effects of that, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of how you approached putting out your views

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Speaker 2: and content, like after that experience, I think.

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Speaker 1: On the one hand, I try to be a lot

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Speaker 1: more careful and consider it. And it's sort of a

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Speaker 1: double edged sword. As I'm writing or speaking or anything,

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Speaker 1: I'm always kind of editing myself in my head.

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Speaker 5: And I think that that's important. I think we have

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Speaker 5: to do that.

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Speaker 1: I think we have to talk about especially particularly sensitive issues.

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Speaker 1: If I say anything about motherhood, I'm really aware that

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying is going to land differently depending on

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Speaker 1: where somebody's at. And I think that's just basic empathy.

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Speaker 1: That's not you know, having to censor, and that's not

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Speaker 1: impacting your free speech. I just think it's important to

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Speaker 1: be aware that your experience is not the only experience.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what I learned about that particular article

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Speaker 1: was hold on my frame of reference is very, very

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Speaker 1: very narrow. The other thing is I think the lasting effect,

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Speaker 1: I hope the lasting effect is having curiosity. So with

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Speaker 1: that in particular, I realized that's a blind spot for me.

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Speaker 1: And so I've read a lot, I've spoken to a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. I've had really good conversations, safe conversations

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Speaker 1: where I've been able to put an idea out there

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Speaker 1: and have it be challenged and then think, ah, actually, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: you're right, I just didn't know that argument.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to know, because it sounds like you did

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Speaker 2: so much research for your debut novel, The worst thing

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Speaker 2: I've ever done. And I love that title, by the way,

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Speaker 2: I love that title, and it's so hard to title

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Speaker 2: a book.

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Speaker 4: But it sounds like you spoke to a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of people that had been through different forms of pylons

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Speaker 2: and cancelation, Like what advice would you give to that,

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Speaker 2: Claire now?

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Speaker 4: Like knowing everything that you do, I.

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Speaker 1: Think I did this naturally, but I would tell myself

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Speaker 1: to do it again. Is don't engage. If somebody is

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Speaker 1: coming at you and swearing at you and making quite

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Speaker 1: dehumanizing and broad statements about who you are because of

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Speaker 1: one tiny thing you've done, I don't think there's any

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Speaker 1: point going back and arguing with that person. Because they're

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Speaker 1: seeing you a certain way. Anything you say is going

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Speaker 1: to be they're primed to see you that way. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to change their opinion. So I'm glad I

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Speaker 1: didn't double down or post anything. I'm glad I didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything impulsive. I think the really important thing is

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Speaker 1: to sit back and think and let it percolate, because

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Speaker 1: as soon as it happens, you want to defend yourself

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Speaker 1: because you believe that you're a good person and that

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Speaker 1: you don't have bad intentions and that you never want

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Speaker 1: to hurt anyone, and you want to say, I'm not

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Speaker 1: an idiot, I'm not the things you're calling me. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's necessarily the moment to do it,

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Speaker 1: because people aren't going to hear you, Whereas the thing

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Speaker 1: to do is to live your life by your own

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Speaker 1: moral compass rather than other peoples. I think if you're

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Speaker 1: trying to please and satisfy anonymous people, you don't know them,

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Speaker 1: they don't know you. If you're trying to satisfy them

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Speaker 1: and meet some criteria for them, that is a fruitless pursuit.

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Speaker 1: So for me, it was me going I did do

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Speaker 1: something wrong, and so what I'm going to do is

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Speaker 1: read about this and understand it and not do that again,

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Speaker 1: and be really aware of the kind of stereotypes I

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Speaker 1: buy into when I speak, when I write, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be really conscious of that. And for me

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Speaker 1: as an individual, that's enough. And we can't kind of

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Speaker 1: put our own morality in the hands of somebody else.

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Speaker 1: To live up to that, because I think we've got

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Speaker 1: to trust that we know who we are and the

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Speaker 1: way we live in our real life is the real thing,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily what we put on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about cancelation, and I know I

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Speaker 2: take what you say about cancel culture as a term,

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Speaker 2: but thinking about that in the workplace.

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Speaker 4: And a couple of years now, I think.

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Speaker 2: It was a couple of years ago my company Inventium

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Speaker 2: did some research into the future of work and we

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Speaker 2: spoke to a bunch of leaders and something that came out.

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Speaker 4: Is that a lot of leaders are really.

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Speaker 2: Scared of saying the wrong thing and being canceled in

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Speaker 2: their own workplace. And I'd love to know, like, where

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Speaker 2: are the parallels to you know, what we see in

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Speaker 2: you know, online and social media when there is a

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Speaker 2: pylon versus you know, this form of cancel culture that

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of leaders are quite fearful of

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Speaker 2: in workplaces.

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Speaker 1: I think they really overlap. I think it's all the

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Speaker 1: same ecosystem. My theory in the book and kind of

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Speaker 1: ongoing theory, is that a lack of empathy is kind

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Speaker 1: of being fostered online and then that comes out of

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Speaker 1: our phones into the real world, and then that exists

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Speaker 1: in the real world, and that comes back into our phones,

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Speaker 1: and we're just swimming in it. We're swimming in this

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Speaker 1: very fast, snap judgment culture of not giving people dignity.

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Speaker 1: I've got a little bit of a passage in the

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Speaker 1: book about how I don't know if you've noticed this,

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Speaker 1: but in the last decade working in mediat, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff published about, like things not to say

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Speaker 1: when you're helping someone who's grieving, things not to say

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Speaker 1: if your friend has been through trauma, whatever. Those things

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Speaker 1: are so deeply embedded in my brain that when I

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Speaker 1: then go to support someone, I don't know what to

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Speaker 1: say because I have read all the things I'm not

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Speaker 1: meant to say. And I think that's the worst, because

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Speaker 1: simply the worst thing you can do if your friend

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Speaker 1: is lost to their father, the worst thing you can

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Speaker 1: do is not say anything. Or if somebody's just been

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Speaker 1: through a traumatic event, you not acknowledging it at all.

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Speaker 5: Is weird.

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Speaker 1: And what people do in their daily lives, we all

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Speaker 1: do in our relationships, is we say the wrong thing

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Speaker 1: all the time. You say the wrong thing, and then

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Speaker 1: five minutes later you might say sorry, that I said

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Speaker 1: that I didn't know what to say. I've had people

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Speaker 1: say things to me that if I was going to

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Speaker 1: write an essay about it, I might say that was

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing, But I.

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Speaker 5: Know that their intentions were good.

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Speaker 1: That's not what they meant, and the overwhelming reality of

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Speaker 1: that relationship is so much more than that tiny transgression.

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Speaker 5: So I think that it's really seeped.

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Speaker 1: Into our interactions with each other where we're really scared

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Speaker 1: that if we say the wrong thing, use the wrong language, whatever,

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Speaker 1: that we are going to get into trouble. But I

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Speaker 1: also think that for the vast, vast, vast majority of people,

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Speaker 1: it's just not the case. I think for most of us,

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Speaker 1: we are socially intelligent enough to give people grace and

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Speaker 1: if somebody apologizes, to accept that and move on. But

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Speaker 1: I do think the more we reward this thing online

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Speaker 1: of like calling people out, holding people to a ca

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Speaker 1: out for something very very very very small, I worry

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Speaker 1: that that then seeps in. And I kind of understand

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Speaker 1: why leaders are worried. I remember being anxious as editor

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Speaker 1: in chief when I was managing people, and I go

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Speaker 1: into a meeting and think, I'm really nervous about exactly

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Speaker 1: how I deliver this feedback and what I say, and

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Speaker 1: whether this person's going to take it a certain way

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Speaker 1: and make it you know, a huge judgment about me,

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Speaker 1: But you're actually a worse leader if you can't be direct,

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Speaker 1: like so it's really kind of it stuffs up a

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Speaker 1: lot of our relationships.

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Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, like I you know, when I heard

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Speaker 2: other leaders talking about this, I remember just going I

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Speaker 2: so experienced that, like in my own business, where you know,

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Speaker 2: there have been times where I've just been so like

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Speaker 2: conscious of what I'm saying, like in like you know

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Speaker 2: and all staff meeting and like rehearsing.

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Speaker 4: Which which seems like ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: We're a small business, we're a small team, but like

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Speaker 2: just having that real fear of like if I say

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Speaker 2: even the wrong phrase or the wrong sentence, like people

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Speaker 2: could just turn on me.

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Speaker 4: And I feel like some of that's irrational.

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Speaker 2: But then, you know, I've also seen instances, you know,

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Speaker 2: in people I work with and advise where it's like, ah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know that can kind of happen. So like, how

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Speaker 2: did you navigate it when you were editor in chief?

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Speaker 1: I tried to very much except that I was going

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Speaker 1: to make mistakes and other people were going to make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: What's hard is probably if you have a culture where

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Speaker 1: you're really hard on other people for making mistakes and

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Speaker 1: quite you know, really making it about who they are

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Speaker 1: rather than what they did. I think that probably comes

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Speaker 1: back at you. Whereas if you foster a culture of

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Speaker 1: we all have to try things, and we are all

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Speaker 1: going to stuff up and do the wrong thing and

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Speaker 1: make the wrong call, but we've got to make decisions

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Speaker 1: and we've got to move forward, and I'm prepared to

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Speaker 1: learn from my missteps and I want you to be

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Speaker 1: as well. I think a big part of that is autonomy.

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Speaker 1: Fostering autonomy because then people see that they make mistakes too,

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Speaker 1: and if there's grace for those, they'll give you grace.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it's because as a leader as well,

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Speaker 1: pragmatism is so important, and pragmatism is different from idealism,

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Speaker 1: and there are many times where you cannot do the

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Speaker 1: ideal thing because of a million different factors. And it's

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Speaker 1: really easy when you don't have the responsibility to look

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Speaker 1: up and think, well, I would have done it this way,

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Speaker 1: and I would have just done this, and you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh god, if you were juggling all the invisible things

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Speaker 1: are juggling and had to make the tough call, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, maybe you would have, and I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: get the opportunity one day. But you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot about being a leader that's really hard. So I

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Speaker 1: think that that's the important thing. Having a culture where

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Speaker 1: people are allowed to make mistakes and you give them

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Speaker 1: praise to that, and where communication is really direct and open,

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Speaker 1: so there's no kind of not bitchiness, but there's no

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, this invisible tension that's bubbling away

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Speaker 1: where you're actually nipping things in the butt. I think

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Speaker 1: that that makes a big difference.

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Speaker 2: It's really tempting to think that the best apology is

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Speaker 2: long and carefully explained, but Claire says that's really true online.

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Speaker 4: The more you explain, the more you fuel the fire.

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Speaker 2: Up next, we're going to be talking about what really

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Speaker 2: makes a good apology at work, why the leaders fear

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Speaker 2: saying the wrong thing, and the surprising ways comparison can

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Speaker 2: help shape your career, even when the person you're measuring

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Speaker 2: yourself against is your own twin.

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Speaker 3: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way

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Speaker 3: you work can live, I write a short weekly newsletter

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00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 3: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally.

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Speaker 3: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com.

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Speaker 3: That's Amantha dot Com.

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Speaker 2: I want to know about apologies because that's obviously generally

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Speaker 2: some kind of conclusion is an apology, and I feel

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Speaker 2: like there's been so much written about how to apologize.

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Speaker 2: Tell me, like, what is the best way to apologize?

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Speaker 1: In the book, I explore very much the fact that online,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure there is a best way to apologize.

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Speaker 1: I have seen people apologize in really, really effective ways,

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Speaker 1: But I think there's certain types of people who already

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Speaker 1: have very, very very good grace and are only guilty

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Speaker 1: in inverted commas of certain relatively minor social crimes.

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Speaker 5: But I think.

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Speaker 1: Once you are perceived in a certain way, no matter

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Speaker 1: what you say is going to be interpreted in bad faith.

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Speaker 1: For example, there are many many cases where you really

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Speaker 1: want to explain the context behind something that's happened, because

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, if only people knew the context, finally, people

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Speaker 1: knew all the behind the scenes things that led to

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Speaker 1: this decision. Most of the time people don't care, and

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Speaker 1: most of the time people will.

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Speaker 5: Tear them apart because there's no way.

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Speaker 1: There's not enough words to add the right weight to

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Speaker 1: that and to provide all the relevant details. There's just

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Speaker 1: not so I think often the best way to apologize

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Speaker 1: is short and no, unreservedly. There's no excuses. There's just

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Speaker 1: I'm apologizing and then actually move on. Because the thing

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Speaker 1: about the media cycle, and this has been a really

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Speaker 1: interesting thing to learn working in digital media, is an

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Speaker 1: apology is another story. So if I'm working in digital

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Speaker 1: media and say there's the Coldplay scandal that blew up recently,

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Speaker 1: the guy the Coldplay concert who cheats on his wife

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Speaker 1: and hooks up with someone, that story is just going

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Speaker 1: nuts writing about it, writing about it, writing about it.

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Speaker 1: If he publishes an apology, there was a fake one,

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Speaker 1: there's all that stuff, which adds so much complexity. But

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Speaker 1: if he publishes an apology, that's another opportunity to run

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Speaker 1: a story. And then if he posts something else about it,

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Speaker 1: that's another opportunity. So the more you do, the more

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Speaker 1: it actually just adds fuel to the fire. So the

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Speaker 1: less you do, the quicker the fire ends. For the

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Speaker 1: mental health of the person at the center of it.

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Speaker 1: I think that's ideal, but I think you have to

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Speaker 1: accept that you're not going to satisfy everyone. There has

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Speaker 1: never been an apology online that has satisfied moral benchmark

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Speaker 1: for every single person, and so you just have to

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Speaker 1: be as direct and I think brief as possible. And

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Speaker 1: it's a really important thing as well for people whose

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Speaker 1: work depends on being online. Be area ware that who

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Speaker 1: you are online is not who you are. That is

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Speaker 1: an avatar, that is a version of you, that is

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Speaker 1: a character, and the real you that goes home and

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Speaker 1: has relationships with your family and goes through the world

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Speaker 1: is a different person, and not to conflate the two.

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Speaker 5: I think that's when it gets really dangerous.

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Speaker 4: How about apologies in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: I imagine you've had to make apologies when you're in

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Speaker 2: a leadership role. What are the differences.

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Speaker 1: I have made many, many, many apologies probably looking back,

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Speaker 1: and I think probably some people I managed would say

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Speaker 1: there's probably too many. I think there's a line between

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Speaker 1: being very accepting of the fact that you make mistakes

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Speaker 1: and then being a bit of a people pleaser, and

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Speaker 1: being a people pleaser is socially confusing for people. I

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Speaker 1: very much kind of came out the other end of

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Speaker 1: being editor in chief thinking, that's actually not helpful for

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Speaker 1: people if you tell them what they want to hear

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Speaker 1: all the time. So if someone's annoyed at you, that's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily something you have to apologize for. And I

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Speaker 1: only learned that recently. If somebody was annoyed at me,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I am so sorry, I've done the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing.

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Speaker 4: How did you learn that lesson.

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Speaker 1: From my interactions with other people who didn't do that.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's a maturity thing. I've had female

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Speaker 1: managers who are just freaking brilliant at being able to

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Speaker 1: say like, I can see you're frustrated, I can see

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Speaker 1: you're upset, let's move forward, but they're not apologizing for

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Speaker 1: what they did because they often haven't done the wrong thing.

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Speaker 1: But it also just it makes you feel safe. It

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Speaker 1: makes you feel safe that they own their decision making

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Speaker 1: and that they are being honest with you. They're not

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Speaker 1: telling you what you want to hear. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's the best thing in the workplace is transparency and honesty.

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Speaker 1: So I think apologize when you've done the wrong thing,

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Speaker 1: even and this is hard, but to I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking like, as leader apologizing to your team, but

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Speaker 1: also apologizing upwards when you stuff up, which can be

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Speaker 1: really embarrassing. But I think if you say, hey, you

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Speaker 1: gave me this project and I really run with it

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Speaker 1: and in hindsight I run in the wrong direction, like

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Speaker 1: that just shows a lot of self awareness and definitely

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Speaker 1: shows that person that they can trust you again because

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Speaker 1: you've learned your lesson.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about the time that you were

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Speaker 2: editor in chief in Mum and Mia, and I've heard

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Speaker 2: you talk about how that was, like that was the

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Speaker 2: pinnacle for you. Like everything you did when you started

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Speaker 2: working at that company was working up and up and up,

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Speaker 2: and you thought that that was that was the utopian

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Speaker 2: kind of career dream, if you like. But then you

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Speaker 2: step down from that role, Can you tell me about

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Speaker 2: that decision making process.

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Speaker 1: I loved doing that for I did it for maybe

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Speaker 1: three years, and I loved it. I loved making decisions.

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Speaker 1: I think making creative decisions. I'm quite I'll do it

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Speaker 1: and back myself absolutely best team, absolutely loved them. But

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Speaker 1: a chunk of it was during COVID, which managing people

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Speaker 1: remotely was really difficult. But I think it was also

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Speaker 1: a bit of a moment of clarity for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people about what they actually wanted to do, and

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Speaker 1: so for me, it gave me the opportunity to slow

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Speaker 1: down and think, what is it that I most enjoy doing?

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Speaker 1: What do I want in life? Had COVID not happened,

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Speaker 1: I probably would have kept climbing a ladder without being

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Speaker 1: conscious of it. But it sort of gave me an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to think back to where my passion started, and

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Speaker 1: I realized it's writing and creativity, and I love that

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Speaker 1: opportunity to be creative. Basically, you've got finite energy. And

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Speaker 1: I quite liked managing people because I love people and

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Speaker 1: I loved I loved the team. But I was like,

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Speaker 1: I've got finite energy, and if my energy is going

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Speaker 1: towards processes and plans and the architecture of a team,

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Speaker 1: then my energy's not going towards writing. And I don't have.

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Speaker 1: As much as I'd like to think I have infinite time,

438
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,239
Speaker 1: I don't. So it. Yeah, it made me sort of

439
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: recalibrate and think that I wanted to focus more on

440
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: writing and podcasting because at that time, when I was

441
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: editor in Cheap, I hadn't really done any podcasting and

442
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: I loved it, loved listening to podcasts, and I had

443
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: all these ideas and I just went, well, I've got

444
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: to do it. I can't just sit around and think

445
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: about it. So I went to my boss and said,

446
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: I think I want to actually change my role and

447
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: go into podcasting, and they thankfully allowed that to happen.

448
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

449
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: Wow, did you have doubts when you went into that conversation,

450
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: like am I doing the right thing here?

451
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: I probably did, But I remember when they said they

452
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 1: were like okay, and then they kind of were working

453
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: out what to do with the team, and I said

454
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: my deputy at the time, I said, she needs to

455
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: be promoted. She can do the job with her eyes closed.

456
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: And when I saw her doing the job, I didn't

457
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: feel jealous. Sometimes I think like that's a good barometer

458
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: of whether you've made the right decision, is when you

459
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: look at someone doing, yeah, what you were just doing,

460
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: and I thought, I was like, she's good at that job.

461
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: I've got one hundred percent faith in her. I'm over

462
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: here doing this thing. That's how it should be. So

463
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: I didn't kind of second guess it.

464
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: And now I want to say, I feel like you've

465
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: sort of got like a bit of a portfolio career

466
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: where you're doing different things at a range of things.

467
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 2: You like, talk me through what that looks like, And

468
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: I guess, more importantly, how do you decide what to

469
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: take on when you're in this position where you don't

470
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 2: have the structure.

471
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 4: That you would have had when you're in that editor

472
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 4: in chief role.

473
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I left mum maya beginning of this year.

474
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: I'd submitted my book, already had written for a TV show,

475
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: Strife on Binge seasons one and two, so had done that.

476
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: So I felt like I knew what I enjoyed doing

477
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: and where the opportunities were and all of that. But

478
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: I also knew that the biggest thing was going to

479
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: be saying no, even when my natural impulse is to

480
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: just say yes to everything. And I was like, the

481
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: more I say no, the more I'm giving myself time

482
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: to work on the stuff I really really care about.

483
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: And sometimes saying yes can almost be procrastination, Like if

484
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: you've got a big project. I've got a big project

485
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: I've been working on all year that is hopefully coming

486
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: out next month, a podcast project. And there are many

487
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: times where I've been offered something and want to take it,

488
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: and then I think, no, that's just you kind of

489
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: choosing the safe route that's easier than backing yourself. So

490
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: I've said no to a lot. I sort of really

491
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 1: think about time. Zoe Foster Blake has a really good

492
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: decision making hack about this. She says, and I'm probably

493
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: going to butcher it, but she says, like, you draw

494
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: a line from one to ten and you remove five

495
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: and six, and then you've got to choose how much

496
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: you want to do it. And I find that really

497
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: really clarifying because often I'm.

498
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 5: Like, ugh, it's a four.

499
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: It's a four, so it's a no like and I

500
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: think when you're really passionate about something, it kind of

501
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: screams at you.

502
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: I love what you say about how saying yes can

503
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: just be procrastinating and that's actually the easy way out.

504
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: One of my favorite podcast interviews that I've listened to

505
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: has got to be I think what you're referred to

506
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: as episode zero, but are you Happy where Claire Murphy

507
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: interviewed you, which was a podcast that you hosted I

508
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 2: think for a couple of seasons. I know it's sort

509
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: of changed format now around asking people that seem to

510
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 2: have it all.

511
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 4: That are you happy? And I love that episode.

512
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: It's funny how like sometimes when you listen to a

513
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: podcast episode that really moves you, like you remember exactly

514
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: where you were when you listen to that episode, and

515
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: I remember I was going on an early morning run

516
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: and I just was so engrossed in that conversation. And

517
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: it was so interesting, like hearing because you're a twin.

518
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: Your twin sister is Jesse Stevens, and you know, listeners

519
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: of how I work that also Mum and me or

520
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: and Mum and Mia out loud fans will know Jesse.

521
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: And it was so interesting how you talked about comparison,

522
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: where like you're born with a comparison point that is,

523
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: you know, like with you every day, and I would

524
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: love to know, like, now you know that interview was

525
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, what does comparison look like,

526
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: either with your twin sister or just in general with

527
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: like how that shows up in your work?

528
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: Now, thank you for saying that. That's really nice. That's

529
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: lovely to hear that you listen to that and enjoyed it.

530
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: I think I'm a little bit better now in terms

531
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: of comparison. I think leaving Mum maya has been a

532
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: really healthy thing to get more in touch with my

533
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: instincts and what I'm drawn to that might be the

534
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: same as what Jesse is or different. And it's also

535
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: been really important for learning to back myself without that

536
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: safety net, which I think was a big part of

537
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: the comparison equation, like I am in or of Jesse

538
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: and how clever, and I mean, it feels weird talking

539
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: about your sister like that because usually we're just nagging

540
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: each other, but someone who is so clever and articulate

541
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: and funny and hard working that having her behind me

542
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: sometimes felt like a safety net, Like a lot of

543
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: the stuff we did was together, and I would think, oh,

544
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: it's only good because of the Jesse ingredient, not because

545
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: of the Me ingredient. So going out of my own

546
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: I think has been a big test of that and seeing,

547
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm sure that there's stuff that I

548
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: do that people are like, oh, yeah, no, I only

549
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: liked it when it was Claire and Jesse, and it's like,

550
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: that's fine.

551
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 5: But I think the older I.

552
00:29:53,760 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: Get, the more comfortable I'm getting with imperfection and difference.

553
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: And I think also motherhood has challenged it a little

554
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: bit because when you have a child and they come

555
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: into the world and you look at them and think

556
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: you are just perfect, exactly as you are. You never

557
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: have to do anything to prove it to me. You

558
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: just have inherent value because you're here and you are you,

559
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: and that's it. I think weirdly, that was quite a

560
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: recalibrating moment for me that I thought, oh, if I

561
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: feel that way about my daughter whiter and I feel

562
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: that way about myself, and then also being aware that

563
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: I want to model that for my daughter. But I

564
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: would hate for my daughter to compare herself to anyone

565
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: because she is just hilarious. She is just her, And

566
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, if you ever wanted to be anything other

567
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: than the weird little toddler she is, I'd be devastated.

568
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: And I think, also, weirdly, so I had, well, my

569
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: twin sister had her daughter, and then I had my

570
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: daughter five months later, and I was very aware beforehand

571
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: that it could be another opportunity for comparison, and I

572
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: was a little bit scared about what if I compare,

573
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: what if Jesse compares, what if other people compare? And

574
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: I don't think it happens. I think they're so different,

575
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: and I think it's been a lesson in like, you

576
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: see two people that are so so so different and

577
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: equally as valuable, which has like rocked my world because

578
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: I almost had this binary in my head that there's

579
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: always better or worse, smarter or dumber, creative or less creative,

580
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: and that's just not how people work. So I think

581
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: it's like a bit of an ongoing journey that yeah,

582
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: for me, motherhood has helped.

583
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 4: I love that inside.

584
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: I love hearing you speak about that and kind of

585
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: where you've come to in the last couple of years.

586
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: I know that we have to wrap up, and Claire,

587
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad that we got to have this conversation.

588
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: I cannot wait to read your book. And I was

589
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: saying before we started recording, I always read the books

590
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: of guests that I have on the show, but in

591
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: this case there was.

592
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 4: No opportunity to.

593
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: But I'm kind of glad because I want to read

594
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: it on holidays and really like soak it up.

595
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,239
Speaker 4: So I'm so excited to read it.

596
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: I think it's so exciting that you know you've made

597
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: this courageous step of going out on your own, and yes,

598
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: just been a joy to talk to you, so, thank you.

599
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 4: Thank you.

600
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 5: I really appreciate it. That was lots of fun.

601
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: Claire reminded me something simple but hard to live by.

602
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: Resist the urge to explain when you get it wrong,

603
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: apologize cleanly, then step away. So next time you feel

604
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: yourself typing out that long justification, just stop own it briefly,

605
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: then let your actions prove the rest.

606
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 4: Oh and Claire's new book is out now.

607
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: It's called the worst Thing I've Ever done, and it's brilliant.

608
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: It goes deep into the world of online trolling and pylons,

609
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: and if you want to keep exploring these themes, you

610
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: might enjoy listening to my conversation with Flight Story CEO

611
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: Georgie Holt about leaning through criticism and building resilience under pressure.

612
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: To that in the show notes, thank you so much

613
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: for spending this time with me, and give this episode

614
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: help you shift your perspective. Share it with someone who

615
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: needs to hear it today.

616
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow

617
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.

618
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 4: How I Work was recorded

619
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of

620
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: the Cooler Nation