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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now, this is what your thirteen year old now feels like,

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Speaker 3: because all of a sudden, you're not talking about a

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Speaker 3: body that one day this is going to happen to you.

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Speaker 4: You're talking about nobody. Here and now and now.

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Speaker 1: Here's the stars of our show, my mum and dad. Hello,

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Speaker 1: this is doctor Justin Calls, the author of six books

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Speaker 1: about raising happy families. I'm not nervous about this conversation today.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why we do this stuff really well

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Speaker 1: in our own home, but it's still just one of

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Speaker 1: those things that people don't talk about publicly so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm here with my wife and co host podcast partner, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: missus Happy Family's mum to our six baby girls.

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Speaker 2: Today we're having a conversation with Michelle Mitchell, author of

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Speaker 2: two brand new books, A Girl's Guide to Puberty and

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Speaker 2: A Guy's Guide to Puberty. We're so excited to chat

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Speaker 2: with you today, Michelle.

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Speaker 5: Kylie, I'm so thrilled to meet you. I've been hanging

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Speaker 5: out to meet missus Happy Family.

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Speaker 4: This is beautiful Now.

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Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, you wrote a book, a

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Speaker 1: very confronting book for parents of teenagers who are going

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Speaker 1: through hard times. Michelle. It was called self Harm, Why

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Speaker 1: Teens do It and what parents can do to help.

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Speaker 1: We'll have to have you on to talk about that

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Speaker 1: another time, but I was so impressed by it, the

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Speaker 1: compassion and kindness that's in it. But now these books

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Speaker 1: all about puberty.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's extremes, isn't it. I know, I've worked with

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Speaker 5: teenagers for so many years and sat with girls in

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Speaker 5: their darkest moments, So we're talking about the heavy stuff.

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Speaker 5: And I had a psychology clinic with twelve staff, and

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Speaker 5: I've done a lot of work with schools over those years.

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Speaker 5: But I found that primary schools were starting to ring

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Speaker 5: me with more and more kind of incidents of things

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Speaker 5: that you typically only see in the teenage years. And

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Speaker 5: I started to speak more in primary schools up at

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Speaker 5: primary grade five and six, and I just fell in

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Speaker 5: love with these little ones. And I actually felt really

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Speaker 5: empowered because I was able to get in in an

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Speaker 5: age where they still thought I knew everything, and they

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Speaker 5: weren't starting out what type of shoes I was wearing

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Speaker 5: quite as much as the grade nines and I absolutely

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Speaker 5: loved communicating with them.

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Speaker 1: It's really easy to communicate with kids that think you

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Speaker 1: do know everything. Still I know.

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Speaker 2: I actually had a conversation with my parents the other

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Speaker 2: day about the very first time I have a memory

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Speaker 2: of having the birds and the bees conversation with them.

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Speaker 2: They brought home a book. They both sat with me

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Speaker 2: on my bed. They brought home this book. It had

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Speaker 2: a bright orange cover. It was about cats mating, and

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Speaker 2: inside the book with these cartoon cats, and I saw

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Speaker 2: all the bits and I saw the action.

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Speaker 1: Were they cat bits or they human bits on cats? Oh?

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Speaker 1: They were cat bits?

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay? And my mum has no recollection. My dad

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Speaker 2: just laughed the whole way through the conversation out totally

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Speaker 2: because I did grow up in a home where it

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Speaker 2: was a very very open conversation and dialogue. But it

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Speaker 2: was just this so hilarious moment where I was like,

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Speaker 2: why did we start with cats?

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Speaker 5: And Dad actually got a story say, like everyone's experiences

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Speaker 5: of that first conversation, it's almost like this real memorable moment,

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Speaker 5: and it's so confronting for kids as well, So we

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Speaker 5: want to try and get it right because it's likely

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Speaker 5: to stick in their minds for.

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Speaker 1: A very long time, Michelle. My first experience with my parents,

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Speaker 1: I was in grade six, so you know it had

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Speaker 1: been years. I already knew it all right, I'm in

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Speaker 1: grade six, for goodness sakes, Yeah, that's it. And Mum

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Speaker 1: and dadd like so, justin we thought we might have

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Speaker 1: a conversation with you about where babies come from and

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Speaker 1: about what's happening with your body, what's about to happen

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Speaker 1: with your body? And I looked at them and robbed

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Speaker 1: my eyes and said, do we have to? And they said, well,

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Speaker 1: we bought your book as well, just in case, and

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Speaker 1: I said, yeah, just give me the book, that's fine,

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Speaker 1: and they handed me Where did I come From? And

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Speaker 1: there was a putty one that went with it as well,

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Speaker 1: and they walked away. Never talked about it again ever.

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Speaker 4: That's it.

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Speaker 5: And I think sometimes it is too little, too late,

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Speaker 5: isn't it, Especially because we've got a generation of kids

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Speaker 5: now growing up online and so the chance of exposure

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Speaker 5: to content of nature and even just images of perceived beauty,

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Speaker 5: this all comes into play with it. So it pushes

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Speaker 5: us as parents, and we have much more of a

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Speaker 5: timeline to work towards these days.

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Speaker 2: Our experience with our six girls is just that they

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Speaker 2: actually really want to have these conversations.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, girls seek it out. You don't tell me about me,

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Speaker 5: tell me more about me. That's that's girls that I

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Speaker 5: meet in schools. They're like open arms to understanding their

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Speaker 5: body and the ebb and flow of hormones, and it

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Speaker 5: helps them put meaning and hinge their experiences on something.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's really powerful for our girls.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying that boys don't have the same response, Michelle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I think boys can take it or leave

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Speaker 5: it just that little bit more.

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Speaker 4: Now I'm generalizing here. Some boys.

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Speaker 5: I'm getting beautiful emails from mums saying they're boys are

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Speaker 5: just a head in the book, digesting it like it's

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Speaker 5: just their new world and it's what they're talking about.

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Speaker 5: And it started some great conversations. But for other boys,

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Speaker 5: it's like, eh, yeah, okay, you know, they can flip

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Speaker 5: it off a bit easier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really fascinating having this conversation. We do need

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Speaker 1: to take a really quick break, but when we come back,

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Speaker 1: Kylie apparently is going to ask one of those really

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Speaker 1: curly questions. I can't believe I use the word curly

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Speaker 1: while we're talking about puberty. I'm so sorry about that,

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Speaker 1: and apparently wants to put me in it with you

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Speaker 1: just a little bit. But we also want to find

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Speaker 1: out about some of the mistakes that we make that

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Speaker 1: we can avoid them. So let's do that in just

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Speaker 1: a sec.

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Speaker 4: Sounds great.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 6: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 6: of discipline. Theres a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're

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Speaker 2: talking with Michelle Mitchell about her books, A Girl's Guide

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Speaker 2: to Puberty and A Guy's Guide to Puberty.

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Speaker 1: We've been reading them in our home. In fact, we

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Speaker 1: shared about, you know in our Old Do Bed Tomorrow

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Speaker 1: podcast a couple of weeks ago, about how you walked

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Speaker 1: into the living room and I'm sitting on the couch.

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Speaker 1: I've got a thirteen year old on my right, I've

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Speaker 1: got a ten year old on my left. The six

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Speaker 1: year olds climbing the couch and listening into every word

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Speaker 1: intently while she runs around the room, and you know,

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Speaker 1: asking about tampons and follow and tubes and over eas

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Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. It's been, it's been kind

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Speaker 1: of it's been a really fun experience to read through

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Speaker 1: the books.

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Speaker 5: Michelle, did you find them funny? Because we worked hard

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Speaker 5: at that. We've tried to put some humor in them.

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Speaker 5: And Steph did a great job with those illustrations, didn't

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Speaker 5: she They're very fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I love the way you've targeted My

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old. She's in grade eight now, and she's

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Speaker 1: sort of saying, you know, I know it all this

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Speaker 1: isn't all that, because she has kind of had these conversations.

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Speaker 1: But we've been looking for some good puberty books and

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Speaker 1: have never really quite found one that I felt great about.

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Speaker 1: We've read through a number because you know, like we're

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Speaker 1: up to children's children four, five, and six now, so

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Speaker 1: we've been through a few of these puberty books and

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Speaker 1: for the younger kids especially, And that's what you said explicitly,

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Speaker 1: this is a book for tweens, the kids from let's

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Speaker 1: say age to twelve. Yeah, and literly our ten year

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Speaker 1: old and Emily who's only six, and we're just figured

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Speaker 1: if she wants to sit on the conversation, she can,

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Speaker 1: and she loves it. It's been it's been really enjoyable,

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Speaker 1: and they have laughed, and they've they've asked lots of

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Speaker 1: really important questions.

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Speaker 2: Michelle Justin actually, as he shared with that experience, was

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Speaker 2: reading all of the puberty things around a female's body.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading a girl's Guide to Puberty.

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Speaker 2: That's right. But once he got to the pages about

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Speaker 2: the Male Anatomy and as he decided to hand that

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Speaker 2: over to me on his part, or did he actually

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Speaker 2: do the right thing?

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Speaker 3: See, this is what your thirteen year old now feels like,

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Speaker 3: because all of a sudden, you're not talking about a

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Speaker 3: body that one day this is going to happen to.

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Speaker 4: You're talking about her body here and now.

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Speaker 5: And that's why it's really hard to talk to a

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Speaker 5: thirteen year old about puberty because it's already happening. But

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Speaker 5: if we can get in a little bit earlier, you

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Speaker 5: can sort of depersonalize it a little bit for them.

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Speaker 5: So justin should you be reading the Male Anatomy to

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Speaker 5: your girls?

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Speaker 4: Not?

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Speaker 5: If you are not comfortable doing that, you are so

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Speaker 5: lucky having a wife to do it.

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Speaker 1: I am, and I leaned on Kylie pretty hard for that. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I've come across a little bit of research. I can't

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Speaker 1: find the citation, I wish I could, but I've come

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Speaker 1: across a little bit of research that indicates that in

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Speaker 1: order to assist with empathy, it's really advantageous for boys

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Speaker 1: to learn about female puberty and anatomy and sexual intimacy

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Speaker 1: from their mums, and girls to learn it from their dads.

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Speaker 1: I mean, ideally it'll be a combination, one two punch

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, but it seems like there's some evidence

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Speaker 1: that it's really handy for kids to learn from their

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Speaker 1: opposite sex parent, particularly when it comes to the stuff

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Speaker 1: that's about that opposite sex.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I think any girl who has a male support person,

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Speaker 5: whether that's a father or an uncle or a big

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Speaker 5: brother in her life, that cares whose arm is around

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Speaker 5: her and cares about her developing sexuality is one lucky girl.

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Speaker 5: And any information that we can have about other people's

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Speaker 5: experiences is going to help with empathy, but particularly in

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Speaker 5: this area, because I feel that respectful relationships start almost

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Speaker 5: in primary school when they're like, I've got those little

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Speaker 5: I like your feelings and they're starting to sort of

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Speaker 5: giggle about body parts, and putting some context around how

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Speaker 5: other people feel about their bodies is really important.

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Speaker 2: That is actually one of the things that really resonated

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Speaker 2: with the way you've written the book, Michelle. I We've

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Speaker 2: read a few other books, and there's it's kind of

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Speaker 2: felt a little bit irreverend. I don't know if that's

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Speaker 2: the right word, but there just hasn't been that same

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Speaker 2: kind of respect for the way our bodies work and

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Speaker 2: the way other people's bodies worked. And so as I

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Speaker 2: was reading with the girls, I just loved that there

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Speaker 2: was just this acknowledgement that everybody else is going through

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Speaker 2: these changes at the same time, and you know, we

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Speaker 2: need to be respectful of the fact that this is

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Speaker 2: this is scary and new for them as well, and

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Speaker 2: so pointing it out and making fun of them or

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Speaker 2: making them feel different at a time where things are

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Speaker 2: just so overwhelming, it's just not nice.

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Speaker 4: It's not kind.

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Speaker 5: And I try and model that with question time too,

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Speaker 5: So when a child puts up their hand and ask

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Speaker 5: me a question, I need to treat that question with

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Speaker 5: the deepest respect and with everything that I do. Yes,

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Speaker 5: there's the birds and bees technical information, but at the

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Speaker 5: same time, you're trying to balance the values that go

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Speaker 5: with that information, because it's the values that give it context.

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Speaker 5: So regardless of whether you're talking about literally body parts

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Speaker 5: or anything else, we can still add value to what

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Speaker 5: we're communicating to our kids.

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Speaker 1: So grateful that you said that, Michelle. There's a couple

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Speaker 1: of points that I'd love to draw out and maybe

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Speaker 1: sort of double click and go a bit deeper on

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Speaker 1: just quickly. The first is do we need to still

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Speaker 1: be calling it the birds and the bees?

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Speaker 5: No, I don't think so, but I think that's what

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Speaker 5: parents relate to, so they remember the technical talk, and

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Speaker 5: that's probably what I refer to when I say birds

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Speaker 5: and bees, because it's like, this is the technical information.

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Speaker 5: But the world our kids live in is a lot

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Speaker 5: broader than that now, and that's why it can't be

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Speaker 5: just one conversation.

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Speaker 1: That's why we're in a new way, like the level

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Speaker 1: of tech the coalority has changed enormously. My second question,

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Speaker 1: actually it's probably less a question and more of a point,

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Speaker 1: but i'd love to get your response to the point.

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Speaker 1: And it's something that I've been really working hard on

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Speaker 1: when I talk to parents about these kinds of topics,

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Speaker 1: particularly when I wrote my book Misconnection, the book about

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Speaker 1: teenage GIRLSJA, thank you, that's really kind. The comment that

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Speaker 1: I made was that we've got to make sure that

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Speaker 1: when we're teaching our children about sexual intimacy, that we

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Speaker 1: don't divorce the physical intimacy from the emotional intimacy. And

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Speaker 1: you've just tapped into the idea of values, which I

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Speaker 1: think is just such a tremendously important third third pillar

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Speaker 1: to really support this conversation. We've got to talk about

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Speaker 1: the technical stuff, like you said, but we can't divorce

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Speaker 1: it from the emotional stuff, because otherwise it just becomes

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Speaker 1: a mechanical act rather than emotionally intimate. And more than that,

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Speaker 1: it's got to be tied to values. Otherwise people will

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Speaker 1: make decisions that the research tells us will ultimately haunt

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Speaker 1: them later into their lives. It will cast a long

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Speaker 1: shadow through their lives.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this.

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Speaker 5: Book is about pub but I was reading some research

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Speaker 5: just a few days ago that we're saying fifty percent

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Speaker 5: of our eight and nine year olds are not comfortable

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Speaker 5: with their body, so they dislike their body. So to me,

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Speaker 5: this involves also the values about loving yourself and having

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Speaker 5: respect for who you are and understanding your body, And

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Speaker 5: to me, it all starts there. And I think that

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Speaker 5: was a huge motivator in writing the book, because I

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Speaker 5: can see where it goes when kids don't have those

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Speaker 5: foundational pillars in place, and also those open conversations, all

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Speaker 5: those open channels of communication with the trusted adults in

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Speaker 5: their life that can be those guardrails as they grow

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Speaker 5: that help reinforce some of those values, sometimes because they're

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Speaker 5: still developing boundaries for their own lives, and sometimes we

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Speaker 5: come and help those and help hold those as a journey.

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Speaker 1: Michelle, we've covered a lot of territory in a very

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Speaker 1: short time. If there was a take home message for

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Speaker 1: every mom, every dad, every trusted adult in these children's

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Speaker 1: lives to.

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Speaker 4: Be make a start. You've got this, You've got it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fantastic. If people want to get hold of the

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Speaker 1: books Michelle, A Girl's Guide to Puberty and A Guy's

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Speaker 1: Guide to Puberty, where should they go?

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Speaker 5: They can head to my website Michelle Mitchell dot org

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Speaker 5: and yeah, we'd love to.

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Speaker 4: See them there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fantastic. We've loved the books, Our girls have loved

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Speaker 1: the books. Really grateful to talk to you.

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Speaker 4: Today, Thanks for having me.

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