1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: I am on a little break for a few weeks, 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: so I'm re releasing some of my favorite episodes from 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: the last twelve months. I will be back with brand 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: new interviews from July thirty one, and until then, enjoy 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: today's chat what does it really take to build a 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: multi million dollar software company from the ground up? On 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: the show today, I am taking you behind the scenes 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: with Nathan Barry, the founder and CEO of the wildly 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: successful email marketing platform convert Kit. When convert Kit was 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: just eighteen months old and failing miserably, Nathan was actually 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: told to shut it all down. But instead of quitting, 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: Nathan took a counterintuitive approach that allowed him to turn 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: the struggling startup into a business that now serves over 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: fifty thousand creators worldwide and is valued at over two 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars. I have been a fan and a 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: follower Nathan's for ages, and in this chat we cover 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: all sorts of tactics that Nathan uses in his work, 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: from his annual life review ritual through to how writing 19 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: one thousand words a day for six hundred consecutive days 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: transformed his work completely. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert, 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of behavior change consultancy Inventium, 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: and this is how I work the show about how 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: to help you get so much more out of the 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: hours in your day. Nathan Barry was the most fascinating 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: person to research as I was preparing for this interview, 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: and one of the most interesting rituals I came across 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: of Nathan's was his annual life review. So while many 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: companies do an annual review of their business and publish it, 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: Nathan actually does one of his life. So I was 30 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: keen to hear more about what this process looks like. 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 2: I learned this from a creator named Chris Gillibo back 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: in twenty eleven. The first thing is I write them 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: for myself, and that's important because if you're trying to 34 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: think about writing it for someone else, you know, then 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: you get into like is this bragging? So customer number 36 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: one is me, and probably customers one through ten are me. 37 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: Somewhere in there are my kids as a customer. That 38 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: would just be really interesting. There's all these different businesses 39 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: like story Worth than others that are Here's a bunch 40 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: of questions to ask your parents so that you can 41 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: capture their life and story on video, and we'll make 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: this amazing artifact out of it. And I think that 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: would just be the best. I need to deal with 44 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: my parents, and I haven't yet. I thought like, why 45 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: don't I just do that gradually along the way. So 46 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: the main customer is me, The next customer would be 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 2: my kids thirty years from now. Why not If I'm 48 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: going to do the work, why not put it out 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: there for the world and let people follow along. So 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: that's the high level idea. 51 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: Can you talk me through the different themes or degrees 52 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: when you're sitting down to do your annual life review 53 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: that you look at. 54 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 2: The first thing is that I always try to put 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: a title on it of some kind, which usually comes 56 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: to me at the end. So I have, like twenty 57 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: twenty two, a year of growth and managing stress, right 58 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: that I was really trying to navigate. But I walked 59 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: through the businesses convert it's the main one. But then 60 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: I'll talk through the other businesses and opportunities that I have. 61 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: I own ten percent of a California ghost town. I 62 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: have airbnbs, I own a local newsletter called from Boise, 63 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: so I like provide updates on some of those things 64 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: that I usually don't talk about. It's just a fun 65 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: checking point if you go back to the early ones, 66 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: so like twenty twelve to maybe twenty fifteen, there was 67 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: much more of a split of like here's the books 68 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: that made money that was selling and things across the audience, 69 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: and then just eventually all merged to like it's ninety 70 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: nine percent convert it. So that dominates a good part 71 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: of it. Another category, travel is a big one. I 72 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: just like to reflect back even on how many trips 73 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: that I took. One of the big categories our farm. 74 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: We moved to this property seven years ago and then 75 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: expanded it three or four years ago. It's such a 76 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: big project and we don't make nearly as much progress 77 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: on it as we want. Then it's really helpful to 78 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: then be able to look back and see, like, oh, 79 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 2: that was the year that we put in the playground 80 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 2: for the kids. So that's a big category. And then 81 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: I always set goals and I usually hit less than 82 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: half of them, but it still helps me to set 83 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: the goals, and I'll check in on fitness goals as well. 84 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: It's written for me, but I let people read along. 85 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: So Nathan, if you were going to coach me in 86 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: starting to do this process for myself. What advice would 87 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: you give me? 88 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: Years one through three aren't that interesting. What's interesting about 89 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: it is when you do it for maybe years four 90 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: through ten, and so the first thing I would say, 91 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: what's a process that you could make sure to do 92 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: consistently every year for the rest of your life, because 93 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: then it's really interesting. What does help me? It's putting 94 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: a lot of things on my calendar, because that's how 95 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: I remember. There's all kinds of things where I'm like, 96 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: oh yeah, I forgot about that. So photos and calendar 97 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: would be the biggest things. Take plenty of photos in 98 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: a way that you can review them and pull out 99 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: the highlights, because those two things are basically what remind 100 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: me of the details in the year. If you have 101 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: health or fitness goals, make sure you're always tracked in 102 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: the same app. Don't chase the new tools, because what 103 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: you want is to be able to say like, oh, 104 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: as I've been on this fitness journey, let me just 105 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 2: screenshot the data of the last five years, instead of 106 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 2: saying like, oh, yeah, I used my Fitness Pal and 107 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: that I was over here with the bit and I 108 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: jumped to, you know, all these different things. 109 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: I think it would have been twenty twenty three. Set 110 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: the goal to be a lot less stressed. I'm curious 111 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: when you set a goal like that, how on earth 112 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: do you plan to achieve that? 113 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a hard one, but I think 114 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: it's more of a guideline than a goal, or it's 115 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: an intention. My wife is two younger brothers, and she 116 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: and I were dating and got married when they were 117 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: probably fourteen and sixteen, and so I was always entertaining 118 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 2: by the way they did things, the stories they told 119 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: and all of that. And they told me once that 120 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: when you're faced with two options in life, choose the 121 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: one that will result in a better story. There's the 122 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: chance to be a better story. And so I think 123 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: of being less stressed, or say an intention to be 124 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: less stressed, as something like that. It's not like that's 125 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: the guiding principle that defines the whole year, but it's like, 126 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: when you're met with two options in life, well, what's 127 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 2: the method to solve that that's going to result in 128 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: less stressed. I've had these book ideas that I've wanted 129 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: to write for years, and I've chipped away at and 130 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: one of them that I felt like I should write first, 131 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: which is the book about building an audience. I've worked 132 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: on it off and on for five years and it 133 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: just has not come together. The book has not clicked. 134 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: And the be less stressed version of that was to 135 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: hire a friend of mine who I think is one 136 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 2: of the best in the world at book packaging, positioning, marketing, 137 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: all of that, and just say I'm still going to 138 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: write the book, but you come alongside me and help 139 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: me figure out what this book is instead of me 140 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: grinding away in my own beating my head against the 141 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: wall for more years trying to do it. I did 142 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: like six three hour calls with him, so there's a 143 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: lot of time. But we really work through exactly what 144 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: the book should be. And we didn't write a short outline. 145 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: We wrote like a five thousand word outline of this 146 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 2: book working through it, and he knows my work really well. 147 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: It's Tim Grawl if anyone wants to follow along storygrid 148 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: dot com. But he's one of those people that's remarkable 149 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: at it. If you look at the top one hundred 150 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: pop songs and you look at like the producers of 151 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: the writers, and you see this one person is behind 152 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 2: like twenty five of them. They understand what it takes 153 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: to make a great song. Tim understands what it takes 154 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: to make a great book. I have this goal to 155 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: finally write and finish this book this year. What's the 156 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: less stressed version of it? Oh, let me bring a 157 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: professional alongside me to really help and guide me through 158 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: this process. Same goal, different result. 159 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of that Tim Ferris question, what 160 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: would this look like if it were easy? 161 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: M M. It's a great one now. 162 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: I like that as an approach to lowering stress. And 163 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: really it comes down to the decisions that you make. 164 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: It's a segue into a big decision that you made 165 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: two years into convert Kit. So one of the videos 166 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: that I watched in preparation for this interview was you 167 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: telling the story of what happened a couple of years 168 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: into creating convert Kit and your mental health reached what 169 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: sounded like an all time low. It was an incredibly 170 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: moving video, and thank you for sharing that. How did 171 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: you make that decision to essentially continue on with convert 172 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: Kit and not kill it at that point in time. 173 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: We have this idea that projects you're going to start them, 174 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: and they might take longer than you think, but progress 175 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: will always be linear and then eventually exponential and it 176 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: will just keep moving. Worst case things will be flying. 177 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: We don't really think about what Seth Godin will talk 178 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: about as the depth of when things decrease, you know, 179 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: and you hit this both emotional low but then also 180 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: probably the business low. I was eighteen months into work 181 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 2: on converct when a friend of mine named heat and 182 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: Shaw told me, Nathan, I think you should shut down 183 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 2: convert it. And I remember thinking, like, that's not a 184 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: nice thing to say to someone. So I was like surprised, 185 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 2: maybe a little offended. Especially if you live in a 186 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: world where people just say nice things, then that's a 187 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: little bit shocking. I hope that you, as a practice 188 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: try to find a friend group that doesn't just say 189 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: nice things like that's the biggest gift. But going from there, 190 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 2: what he said is you should check down convert it. 191 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, why. He's like, look, you've 192 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: been successful selling books and courses. You'll be successful at 193 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: plenty of other things you do. Converc it is eighteen 194 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 2: months in, it's shrinking at this time, like you should 195 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: shut it down and move on to something else. He 196 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: let me sit with that for a second and then 197 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 2: he goes, Or you could take it seriously and give 198 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: it the time, money, and attention it deserves and build 199 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: it into something real. And that's that with me. For 200 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: a while, I wish I'd done the thing of like 201 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: immediately made a decision, But often when we hear good advice, 202 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: we've sit on it for too long. And so it 203 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: ended up being about six months later. So two years 204 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: in that revenue had declined. We're at thirteen hundred a 205 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: month in revenue. It was no longer longer covering like 206 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 2: even the server hosting basic expenses. I'm losing money to 207 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 2: operate this business, and I was trying to think, how 208 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: am I going to make this decision? In my case, 209 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 2: I still really wanted to build a software company. I 210 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: definitely absolutely want this. So then the next question I 211 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: asked is have you given this every possible chance to succeed? 212 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: Because if you've truly given it your best and it 213 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: hasn't worked, then you can let it go. You can 214 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: lay it to rest knowing that everything within your power 215 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: was done. In my case, I hadn't right I asked 216 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: that question, and I was like, no, I have worked 217 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: on it part time, I haven't put that much money 218 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: into it, Like I have more savings that I could 219 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: pour into this. And I realized that if I shut 220 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: convert it down in that moment, I would be that 221 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: person at a party three years from now and you'd 222 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: be like, oh, what happened to convert it? And're like, yeah, 223 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: you know, I had to shut it down. But I 224 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: think if I had stuck with it, like I for 225 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: sure could have made that happen. You know, like we've 226 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: all encountered that person who is like, oh, just this 227 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: had been different, you know, it would have been a 228 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: huge win. And I don't like that person. I don't 229 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: want to be that person. And so I felt this 230 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: disconnect between what I said I wanted and with the 231 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: effort and work I was willing to put in. And 232 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 2: so I actually set a goal within six months to 233 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 2: get to ten thousand a month in revenue or I 234 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: would shut it down. It was really that framework helped 235 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: me decide, and then obviously nine years later after that moment, 236 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 2: I'm pretty happy with the double down decision because now 237 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: it's a giant company that powers fifty thousand plus creators 238 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 2: like entire business. 239 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: That's an amazing story. Something I have heard you say 240 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: when I've listened to other interviews with you is talking 241 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: about certain things being simple but not easy, and that 242 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: really stuck with me. Can you tell me a little 243 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: bit more about what that means. 244 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: There's so many things in life that we want to 245 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: know what's the secret. I was talking to this person 246 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: I met and somehow came up in conversation that they'd 247 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: lost fifty pounds and they looked quite fit, and I 248 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: was trying to imagine them with fifty more pounds, and 249 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: I was just like, how did you do it? Like 250 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 2: expecting they, you know, uncovered this whole secret. And there's 251 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: like I gradually increased my movement over time, and I 252 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: just made sure that I operated a calorie deficit. And 253 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: that's it. So you take something like weight loss, it's 254 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: pretty well known, it is relatively simple and definitely not easy. Right, 255 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: So we want to look at all of these things, 256 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: whether it's building an audience, for example, pretty much if 257 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 2: you show up consistently and you were to choose one 258 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: platform and say, okay, I'm going to build an audience 259 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: on X, it's fairly simple. Post every day network with 260 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 2: other creators and reply to comments and engage. Right. If 261 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 2: you do that every single day for two years, like 262 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: you're a student of the game, then I guarantee you're 263 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: going to see success. It's fairly simple. And when I 264 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: say it's simple but not easy, what I'm referring to 265 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: is stop looking for the hacks or the secrets or 266 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: the tricks. You just have to make the hard to 267 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: say visions, easy decisions, hard life, hard decisions easy life. 268 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: Now, you're one of the only entrepreneurs or CEOs that 269 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: I've interviewed that has a writing habit, and for the 270 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: most part, that's a daily writing habit. I'm curious as 271 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: to what that currently looks like in your life. 272 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: It's very scattered at the moment. And I actually have 273 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: a bit of an identity crisis when it comes to 274 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: my writing habit. And that's because I built a lot 275 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: of my identity as a creator around this idea of 276 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: writing a thousand words a day. I built this habit 277 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: of writing a thousand words a day every day for 278 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: six hundred days in a row, and I built my 279 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: entire career as a content creator off of that thing. 280 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: I wrote three books, lots of log posts built an 281 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: audience to ten thousand subscribers or more. Now, I ended 282 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 2: up getting stressed out because of other things, getting shingles, 283 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: and so at this point my writing habit is fairly sporadic. 284 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: I still write fairly regularly, probably three times a week, 285 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: but it's not the every single day habit that I 286 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: wish it was, because I decided for the season, I 287 00:13:58,800 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: have a different priority. 288 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: So what role, then, does writing now play in your life? 289 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: Writing is the way I bring most of my ideas 290 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: to the world, and I still have so many things 291 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: that I want to say. I have these flagship essays 292 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: that I've written on building wealth and flywheels and these 293 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: other concepts that I think are really really important, and 294 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: I have a bunch more of those that I want 295 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: to bring to the world, but the process of writing 296 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: them is more time consuming. I think what I've decided 297 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: is that I need to sequence the activities that I'm doing. 298 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: I do way too many things and I spread myself then. 299 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: And now what I'm doing differently this time is I'm 300 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: diving into team building. So I might not write all 301 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: of my own material. I might have an idea give 302 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: it to a researcher who I haven't hired yet, but 303 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: still into hire, so I still plan to spend a 304 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: good amount of time writing myself. But I think about 305 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: content creation at the scale that I'm at very much 306 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: as a team sport rather than a solo writer in 307 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: the cabin in the woods type of thing. 308 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: I find that fascinating As a writer myself, I've just 309 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: had my fourth book come out, and I feel like 310 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: the life which part of my self identity is attached 311 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: to being a writer and creating the thing myself and 312 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: doing the research myself. How did you make that leap 313 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: to almost detach part of your self identity from that 314 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: writing process and allow yourself to delegate, outsource, build a 315 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: team around it. 316 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: It's been a very gradual process. I'm not at the 317 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: point where I would hire someone else to write a 318 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: book for me. I have nothing against that, actually, because 319 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: I think that you get in situations where you have 320 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: someone who has an amazing story or a point of 321 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: view on the world and is not an amazing writer, 322 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: and they should absolutely bring someone along. One thing that's 323 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: been helpful for me is realizing that there's only so 324 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: many hours in the day and so much time that 325 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: you have to apply I'm willing to get a team, 326 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: so stop depriving the world of your ideas and actually 327 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 2: build the systems and bring the team in place to 328 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: make it happen. 329 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: Now, something that I know you're very passionate about is flywheels. 330 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: Can you for people that have not come across what 331 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: on Earth we are talking about? What one is? 332 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So a flywheel is a concept in physics really 333 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: of taking manual effort and then transferring it into something 334 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: that like either storing the energy or carrying it forward. 335 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: So the first time that I encountered a flywheel was 336 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight and I was in Lisutu, 337 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: which is the landlocked country inside of South Africa, and 338 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: we were working at an orphanage and we had drilled 339 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: a well and we were going to put a pump 340 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: on top of the well. And Masera, the capital city 341 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: where we were at, had electricity, but in the two 342 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: weeks we were there, I think it went out like 343 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: eight times. So we didn't really want to put in 344 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: an electric pump on this well. And so I was thinking, like, okay, 345 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: we're adding a hand pump, and Jason, one of the 346 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: guys leading our trip, was like, no, no, no, we're gonna 347 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: put a flywheel on it. So instead of the hand pump, 348 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: which would be this long handle, you go and pump 349 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: your water, and this the handle gives you leverage, but 350 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: there's a direct tie between the effort that you put 351 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: in and the impact or the results that you get back. 352 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: And at the moment you stopped pumping, you immediately stopped 353 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 2: getting water. And so instead of that, the flywheel is 354 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: this large metal wheel that sits up on top of 355 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: the pump. It's hard to get going initially, but instead 356 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: of this linear up and down movement, it carries that 357 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: momentum forward and it builds momentum over time. It's still 358 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 2: need an input, but I could basically with one or 359 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: two fingers just keep this thing spinning. And so that's 360 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: a metaphor. Obviously, like we get to apply it to 361 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: all these other areas of life and business, and like 362 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: we talked about health and fitness. That's a flywheel. It 363 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: is incredibly difficult to get going. If you're starting with 364 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 2: really small changes. You're just saying, oh, I'm gonna eat 365 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: a piece of fruit every day, you can build on 366 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 2: from there. So I really came to three laws that 367 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 2: define a flywheel, especially in the business case. The first 368 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 2: is every step in a flywheel should flow smoothly from 369 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: one into the next. The second law is that it 370 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 2: should get easier with each rotation, and then the third 371 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: laws it should deliver more with every rotation. So that's 372 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: flywheels at a high level, and we can go wherever 373 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: you'd like from there. 374 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: We will be back with Nathan soon giving an example 375 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: of how he uses the flywheel framework in his business 376 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: to drive sales. If you're looking for more tips to 377 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: improve the way you work and live, I write a 378 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply 379 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: tips to improve your life. You can sign up for 380 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: that at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot 381 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: substack dot com. I would love to get maybe an 382 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: example from within convert Kit in the sales process, because 383 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: I think everyone listening will have some kind of a 384 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: sales process in their business, maybe they are directly involved 385 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: in sales. How have you gone about applying the flywheel 386 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: concept to driving sales at convert Kit. 387 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this tay is in nicely with the kind 388 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: of the pivot point that we talked about in in 389 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 2: birk It because it wasn't just that I went all 390 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: in on a convertt and like magically we got results. 391 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 2: I actually did things differently when I made that pivot, 392 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: and one of the biggest things that I did is 393 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: I started direct sales. Being a content marketer, I was thinking, 394 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 2: I'm going to grow through content, right, that is how 395 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: this business is going to grow. Turns out it's really 396 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: really hard to sell software through content, especially software that's 397 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: not very good yet because it's new. And so the 398 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 2: pivot to direct sales really let me grow the company 399 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 2: and get traction early on, especially because what happens when 400 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 2: selling through content is if you and I are having 401 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 2: a conversation. We're sitting across from each other at a 402 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: coffee shop and I'm saying, would you like to buy 403 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 2: convert it become a customer. If you were like look 404 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: at me and then like push back your chair and 405 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: without saying anything, just get up and leave, that would 406 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 2: be socially unacceptable on so many levels. Right. If I say, hey, 407 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: will you buy this thing? You were obligated by the 408 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: rules of our society to give me a response. It 409 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: might be like maybe I'll think about it it or no, 410 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: but you have to give me a response, and whatever 411 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: response you give me, I can learn from that. When 412 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: you think about content marketing, that socially unacceptable interaction happens 413 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 2: all the time. I can just hit the back button. 414 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: I've completely rejected you. You get no feedback, and that's 415 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: what happens on the web. So I love it when 416 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 2: people will go into direct sales because it gets them 417 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: all of the feedback. So my flywheel for convertant direct 418 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: sales like it worked, and then now years later, I'm like, 419 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: why did that work? I'm like, that was a flywheel 420 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: and I didn't even realize it. So I started just 421 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: identifying potential customers. I looked at who was successful in 422 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 2: convert it and I was like, Okay, let me find 423 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: people like them that got me, like lists of men's 424 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: fashion bloggers in New York Paley Arrecipe blog. Try to 425 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 2: get as specific as possible. Then I'd reach out with 426 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 2: a personal message and I would ask about what was 427 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: frustrating so specifically, I'd see that they're using Mailchimp and 428 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: I'd say, hey, I was wondering, what's your biggest frustration 429 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: with using Mailchimp. The reason I ask is I'm working 430 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: on building a tool called Convertt and it's used by 431 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: and I would drop my the only two relevant names 432 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: that I had that was a customer or someone else, 433 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: and I just love to get your feedback, right, so 434 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 2: i'd start with that. It had a pretty good reply rate, 435 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: and people say, oh, I'm really frustrated with it's hard 436 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: to tag and organize my audience, it's hard to set 437 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 2: up automations that are relevant to my subscribers, things like that, 438 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: which very conveniently I'd built the product because I used mailchip, 439 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: but I was frustrated by these exact same things, and 440 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: so I'd say like, oh, here's how we're solving. I'd 441 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: love to get on a call and show that to you. 442 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: And that worked really well, and at some point i'd 443 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 2: ask for the sale and they would usually say no 444 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: now thankfully because we're on a call. They had to 445 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: tell me why. And the reason they said why was 446 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: usually it's too much work to migrate. We've been using 447 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: this other tool for three years, five years, and we're 448 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,959 Speaker 2: deeply embedded until finally, like out of desperation, like it's 449 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: not that much work, blah blah blah, I'll do it 450 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,959 Speaker 2: for you for free. And that's where our concierge migration 451 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: was born, and I would pull up their mail chip 452 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: account and their can working account here and another like copy 453 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: and paste over their email and then edit all their 454 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: forms and switch those over. And what that did is 455 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 2: that's how I landed the customer. And then I would 456 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 2: get a testimonial and the recommendation, Hey, who else should 457 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: I get on? Convertate that recommendation to other people? Completed 458 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: the loop? Right, It brings my flywheel background to the 459 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: beginning because then now I've identified new customers. And so 460 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 2: if we go through our three laws for this direct 461 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: sales flywheel first is every step moves smoothly, want into 462 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: the next. Right, migration goes to testimonial, which leads to 463 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: new customers or new referrals that I can then talk to. Next, 464 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: it gets easier with every rotation because my prospecting got 465 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: more dialed in my cold email, I knew what worked, 466 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: My sales calls got a lot better, the product got better, 467 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 2: and then it also drove more results with every rotation 468 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: because I could reach more and more people. Word of 469 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: mouth started to kick in a little bit, and so 470 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: I just noticed that that flywheel was so hard to turn. 471 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: It first, but it got just a tiny bit easier 472 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: with every rotation up until the point that we've just 473 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: had a huge amount of momentum in the word of mouth. 474 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: That's such a great story, such a great example. 475 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: I love that. 476 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: Thank you, Dathan. One other thing I wanted to ask 477 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: about is that you recently took a sabbatical, and when 478 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: I read that, I thought, I need to take a sabbatical. 479 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: I've been running my business Inventium for seventeen years, and 480 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: I think the longest I've taken off in recent times 481 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: is I don't know, maybe two or three weeks. I'm 482 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: craving it, but the timing is not right now because 483 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm hiring a CEO. How did you know it was 484 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: time to take a sabbatical? How did you approach it? 485 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: I probably would not have taken a sabbatical if it 486 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: wasn't for my team. We have a benefit at Convertant 487 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: that when you hit five years, you get a month 488 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: long sabbatical in addition to the month of vacation time 489 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: you have every year. So sometimes people will take, you know, 490 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 2: six or eight weeks sabbatical and I would joke like 491 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: I've been working at Conbercut for ten years. So I 492 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 2: actually get two sabbaticals now, and a few people on 493 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 2: my team were like, no, but you need to take 494 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: a savata and I was like, no, no, no, there's too 495 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: much going on and all of that, and they just 496 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: kept saying, like you were sitting the example for the 497 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: team that sabbaticals are this thing that they should aspire 498 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: to and are earned, and it's like, if you believe this, 499 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: live it out. I was like, all right, and so 500 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: I finally did. I had for probably six months leading 501 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: up to it, I had a doc outlining what are 502 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: the different types of sabbaticals I could take, Because you 503 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: could do an epic adventure. I'm going to walk the 504 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: community to Santiago, right, or go on this epic vacation 505 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: for the full time or something like that, or like 506 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: I always wanted to learn to five planes, and I 507 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 2: ended up just doing a combination of a few things. 508 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: Mostly what I chose was learning and the staycation, and 509 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 2: so I enjoyed life around Boise. We went on a vacation, 510 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 2: I spent a bunch of time working on my pilot's license. 511 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 2: I worked on a couple of things. We had some 512 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: really big convertate things going on. So I think I 513 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: took three meetings in thirty days. It was very weird 514 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: for me to walk out of a meeting, like I'm 515 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: used to sharing the work or something like that, and 516 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: I could walk out of the meeting, then I guess 517 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go. So it's good to be a 518 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: lot less involved in the business. But yeah, I think 519 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: that it'd be really good to pride for me to 520 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: do every two or three years instead of you been 521 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: every five years. 522 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: That is very inspiring, differently inspiring me to book something 523 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: in my diary now, Nathan, I feel like you're so prolific. 524 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: There's so many different places I could direct listeners to 525 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: discover more about you and obviously convert kid. Where are 526 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: the best places for people to go? 527 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: Nathanberry dot com is where I try to keep everything 528 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: up to date the new I write a weekly newsletter 529 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 2: every Tuesday. I host a podcast called The Billion Dollar Creator. 530 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: But then I think the biggest thing is if you're 531 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 2: looking to know more of my story than the documentary 532 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 2: that the team forced me to make that's on YouTube, 533 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: that's probably the best summary of life over the last 534 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: ten years. 535 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: Amazing, Well, Nathan, I'm so grateful that you said yes 536 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: to this random reach out from Australia. I'm such a 537 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: big fan of what you do, so thank you so 538 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: much for sharing your time with me today. 539 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: Oh, of course, thank you so much for having me. 540 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: I hope you liked this chat with Nathan Barry and 541 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: I must say, ever since discovering Nathan, I have become 542 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: obsessed with flywheels and thinking about different ways to apply 543 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: it to my work and also at my company, Inventium. 544 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: If you know someone that might benefit from this chat, 545 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: feel free to share it with them via whichever podcast 546 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: app you are listening to this episode from. Following this 547 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: podcast and leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners, 548 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: and your support is one of the things that makes 549 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your 550 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: day with me by listening to How I Work. If 551 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: you're keen for more tips on how to work better, 552 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy 553 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work 554 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, 555 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: part of the Cool And Nation. I am so grateful 556 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: for being able to work and live on the beautiful 557 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: land and I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, 558 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: present and emerging. How I Work is produced by me 559 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. The episode producer was Rowena Murray. And thank 560 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: you to Martin Imba who does the audio mix for 561 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound better than it would 562 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: have otherwise