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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers now.

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Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families podcast. It's my favorite episode

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Speaker 1: and the last one that we're going to be doing

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Speaker 1: this year. I'm so sad, Kylie, this is the last

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Speaker 1: Doctor's Desk episode.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I have made this conversation so sad.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who have not heard The Doctor's

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Speaker 1: Desk before. It's the best podcast episode we ever do

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Speaker 1: every month Christmas coming up. We're not going to do

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Speaker 1: one next month, but we kind of have a look

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Speaker 1: at some brand new research and look at how it

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Speaker 1: affects families, what's been going on in the world of parenting,

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Speaker 1: science and so forth. Kylie, we have four studies to

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Speaker 1: go through. We don't have time for all four of them,

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Speaker 1: and I want to spend a lot of time on

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Speaker 1: each of them. We're going to see if we can

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Speaker 1: do each one in like two and a half to

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Speaker 1: three minutes. Never before done so much to talk about

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Speaker 1: where are we starting today?

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Speaker 2: A study came out of Wellington, New Zealand discussing the

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Speaker 2: impact of income income on children's behavioral development.

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Speaker 1: So there's a fair better research around the idea that

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Speaker 1: income will have some impact on how kids develop. This

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Speaker 1: study from New Zealand from will willing Willington, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I'm you know what, I shouldn't try to

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Speaker 1: do that because I love going to New Zealand and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm giving Kiwi's a hard time, Keewey's

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Speaker 1: give Australians a hard time. I'm okay with that. New

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Speaker 1: Zealand Willington University new study links low incomes. Did I

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Speaker 1: do that? Well? Did its terrible? New study links becomes stress,

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Speaker 1: parents and child behavior. And essentially the argument that they

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Speaker 1: make is if we can support parents better financially, then

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Speaker 1: they're probably going to have better outcomes across the board.

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Speaker 2: Well, income would ultimately suggest education status.

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Speaker 1: In most cases, there's a relationship between education and income.

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Speaker 1: Certainly as one goes up, so too does the other.

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Speaker 2: And that has to have an impact. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Here's what they did. Data from more than six thousand

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Speaker 1: New Zealand mothers and their children in the Growing Up

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand study, which is kind of like the

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Speaker 1: Growing Up in Australia longest that's been going on. In particular,

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Speaker 1: they look at children's social and emotional development examined a

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Speaker 1: core school, which reflected their conduct, their hyperactivity, their emotional

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Speaker 1: peer relationship problems as reported by the mums. What they

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Speaker 1: basically say is children with high scores may have problems

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Speaker 1: with areas like friendship, paying attention at school, which could

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Speaker 1: be a forerunner for future mental health problem. So it's

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Speaker 1: really important. The research that they're doing here, they're following

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Speaker 1: kids from pregnancy to eight years of age, and what

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Speaker 1: they found is that for periods where family income was higher,

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Speaker 1: children had fewer reported behavior problems than during periods where

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Speaker 1: income was lower. But interestingly, it was only in the

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Speaker 1: preschool years. What the researchers are essentially arguing is that

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Speaker 1: a higher family income does seem to help children's early

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Speaker 1: social and emotional development and head off children's behavior problems.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess the biggest question is why.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this one's interesting to me. The argument that they

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Speaker 1: make is so in relationships, in communication, there's this thing

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Speaker 1: known as serve and return. I say something I serve essentially,

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Speaker 1: and then you hear it, and then you return. You

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Speaker 1: ask a question, or you engage with me, you interact

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Speaker 1: in some way or another, And this is really crucial

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Speaker 1: for children's brain development, and essentially, in their models, what

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Speaker 1: they're suggesting is that when mothers are super stressed, often

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Speaker 1: because of financial stress and so on, and if they're

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Speaker 1: exhibiting parenting behaviors that are related to stress, like yelling

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Speaker 1: and arguing with children, the servant return isn't happening. So

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Speaker 1: that's affecting brain Development's affecting behavior problems, affecting cor de

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Speaker 1: soul levels, it's affecting adrenaline and all of this. What

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Speaker 1: they basically say is overall, and this is a direct quote,

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Speaker 1: a higher income appears to lower stress and create space

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Speaker 1: for more engaged parenting, which benefits children's social and emotional development.

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Speaker 1: It's a really fascinating start. It's really really important conversation.

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Speaker 1: And I bring it up here. I know a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are probably going to listen and go, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not going to help me because I'm dealing with

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of financial stress. I don't have efficient income,

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Speaker 1: and my children are behaving in challenging ways. And now

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Speaker 1: you're telling me there's my fault. Number one, I don't

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Speaker 1: earn enough money, and number two, i'm being allows to parent.

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Speaker 1: That's that's certainly not what I'm suggesting at all. What

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Speaker 1: I am suggesting I think what this research points to

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Speaker 1: is that when we can help, when we can create

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Speaker 1: at a policy level and an economy that supports employment,

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Speaker 1: that supports meaning and purpose and gives people the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to generate sufficient income to support their families, that we

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Speaker 1: get better outcomes. And unfortunately, in our society today, the

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Speaker 1: cost of living, cost of housing and rent, mortgage, whatever,

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Speaker 1: everything costs so much, parents are so stressed out. It

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Speaker 1: does have an impact on the quality of relationships and

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Speaker 1: children's outcomes. It's kind of a sad news story, but

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Speaker 1: it's a really important study and I think one that

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Speaker 1: one that needs ongoing attention.

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Speaker 2: Our second study is out of the University of Wollongong, ah.

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Speaker 1: My alma mater. That's where I do we say Alma

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Speaker 1: mart I think we do even in astral as we

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Speaker 1: talk about Alma Mater. Yeah, great, great university.

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Speaker 2: Where they looked at three and four year olds and

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Speaker 2: they look specifically at their sedentary behavior, physical activity, and

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Speaker 2: sleep and the percentage that these kids are getting out

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Speaker 2: of each of those areas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how many of the kids are actually meeting The

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Speaker 1: World Health Organization guidelines for physical activity, sedentary behavior, and sleep,

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Speaker 1: thirty three countries, big study, really really clever work that

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Speaker 1: they've done here. They had seven thousand and seventeen children

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Speaker 1: who participated in this, and here are the guidelines. Okay,

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Speaker 1: the proportion of children who meet the World Health Organization

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Speaker 1: guidelines for physical activity, which is supposed to be greater

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Speaker 1: than one hundred and eighty minutes a day of total

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Speaker 1: physical activity and greater than sixty minutes of moderate to

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Speaker 1: vigorous intensity in their physical activity screen time, they're saying

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Speaker 1: less than an hour a day because we're looking at

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Speaker 1: three year olds and sleep duration ten to thirteen hours

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Speaker 1: a day. So they've estimated that across countries and by

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Speaker 1: World Bank income group and geographical region using big meta analyzes.

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Speaker 1: And Kylie, would you imagine the across the globe that

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Speaker 1: most three and four year olds are getting enough sleep,

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Speaker 1: are moving their bodies enough, and are essentially not sedentary

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Speaker 1: too much?

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Speaker 2: I want to say yes, but I actually don't think so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd probably be right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the challenge I have with it, and I

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Speaker 2: actually it actually saddens me so much when I think

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Speaker 2: of the average three or four year old.

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Speaker 1: These are busy kids, Well, they're supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're busy kids. They're so inquisitive, they're so curious,

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Speaker 2: and when they're not boxed in, you actually kind of

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Speaker 2: can't stop them from moving because that's what their development

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Speaker 2: stage is.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you, if you would a guess. You

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Speaker 1: haven't seen the study. You don't know what's about to

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Speaker 1: come out of my mouth. If you were to guess

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Speaker 1: what percentage of kids are meeting those guidelines that is,

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Speaker 1: moving their bodies one hundred and eighty minutes a day

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Speaker 1: or more, with at least sixty minutes of moderate to

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Speaker 1: vigorous intensity in their physical likevity, less than hour of

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Speaker 1: screen time, and ten to thirteen hours of sleep. What

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Speaker 1: percentage of kids across those thirty three countries would you

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Speaker 1: imagine ticking those three boxes?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I have no idea, but I would suggest

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Speaker 2: that's probably twenty five percent or less. I think.

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Speaker 1: Damn, that's that's pretty close. It was fourteen percent, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fourteen percent of kids.

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Speaker 2: I was hopeful. That's why I went that high.

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Speaker 1: Right, So curiously, there was no clear pattern. According to

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Speaker 1: income group, the proportion meeting the guidelines was sixteen point

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Speaker 1: six percent in low and lower middle income countries, eleven

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Speaker 1: point nine percent in upper middle income countries, which is

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Speaker 1: not good. I mean only eleven percent and fourteen point

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Speaker 1: four percent in high income countries. The region with the

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Speaker 1: highest proportion meeting the guidelines was Africa. Well the lowest

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Speaker 1: proportion North and South America. I just I find this fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I guess the conclusion for this one really is that

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Speaker 1: most around four year olds in this analysis and not

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Speaker 1: meeting the guidelines for physical activity, for sleep, and for

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Speaker 1: sedentary behavior, and as families, these are things that really

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Speaker 1: matter for healthy lives.

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Speaker 2: And the interesting thing just the correlation. If our children

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Speaker 2: are using their bodies more, they're going to sleep better

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Speaker 2: across the board. I just, yeah, I feel like our

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Speaker 2: children's I don't know if spirit's the right word, but

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's just being crushed.

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Speaker 1: The world is not designed for kids. I was seeing

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Speaker 1: that increasingly. Kylie. We have two studies.

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Speaker 2: Left, Okay, impact of school phone bands on children's behavior

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Speaker 2: while at school.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited about this one. So as you know,

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Speaker 1: last year or the year before, I was in conjunction

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Speaker 1: with Rebecca Sparrow mid On a King and a handful

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Speaker 1: of other people. We petitioned Grace Grace, the Education Minister

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Speaker 1: at the time in Queensland, to bring the band in

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Speaker 1: and align Queensland with what was going on in other schools.

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Speaker 1: There's been a brand new article written in the Daily

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Speaker 1: Telegraph by Elid Sproulmelis who says one year on, the

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Speaker 1: state wide ban on mobile phones in schools has been

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Speaker 1: near universally hailed as a success, with almost ninety percent

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Speaker 1: of principles claiming it has reduced classroom distractions. Let me

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Speaker 1: read on. The state wide ban on mobile phones in

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Speaker 1: schools has been universally hailed as a success by almost

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Speaker 1: a thousand school leaders one year on, and principles say

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Speaker 1: they're relieved to be quote protecting a whole generation of

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Speaker 1: children from screen addiction and distraction. And a survey of

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Speaker 1: nine hundred and sixty eight primary and high school principle

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Speaker 1: was conducted by the Department of Education in New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: Ninety five percent ninety five percent said that they supported

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Speaker 1: the mobile phone ban at their school. Asked about the

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Speaker 1: impact on students, eighty seven percent of the two hundred

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Speaker 1: and four secondary school principles surveyed said the ban had

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Speaker 1: reduced classroom distractions, and sixty eight percent reported it was

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Speaker 1: quote a lot better. One more thing that I'll add here, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Social interactions between students have also improved. Eighty six percent

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Speaker 1: of principles I highlighted that that was the case, and

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Speaker 1: more than half said student learning at their school was

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Speaker 1: quote a lot better post ban. Overall, four and five

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Speaker 1: noticed improvements, while only nineteen percent reported no change, a worsening,

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Speaker 1: or declined to respond. I mean, this is a good

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Speaker 1: news story. Support for the phone ban when we were

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Speaker 1: talking about bringing it in in Queensland was not exactly high,

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Speaker 1: and the government was really pushing against it and agitating

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Speaker 1: and saying no, no, no community consultation, we don't need to

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Speaker 1: do it. And I was dogmatic. I was adamant that

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Speaker 1: this was necessary. And I feel vindicated. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I knew what I was talking about. Maybe sometimes the

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Speaker 1: experts do know what's going on. That's my one.

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Speaker 2: I find this one interesting because you've got ninety five

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Speaker 2: percent of parents who supported it.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yet is this a case of parents not wanting to

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Speaker 2: be the bad guy? Because as a parent, I can

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Speaker 2: just say to my kid, you can't take your phone

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Speaker 2: to school.

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Speaker 1: It's really really easy when you can say to your children,

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Speaker 1: guess what, it's against the law, So you can't drive,

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Speaker 1: even though you're fifteen or sixteen and you've got your l's,

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Speaker 1: but you can't drive on your own. It's really easy

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Speaker 1: to say it's the law that X has to happen,

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Speaker 1: or why has to happen? And kids will I mean

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Speaker 1: sometimes they'll be upset about it, but they generally comply.

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Speaker 1: They get it. It's the law, and so by bringing

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Speaker 1: this ban in now, it's futile to argue against it.

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Speaker 1: There's no point arguing because it's the law, it's the rule.

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Speaker 1: The ban is in place, and this is just how

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Speaker 1: we do things here. It changes the culture. I think

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Speaker 1: overall it's a good thing, regardless of the challenge that

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Speaker 1: you raise. And we know that parents absolutely struggling with

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Speaker 1: it and want to do better, but sometimes they just

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Speaker 1: feel so helpless. I think this is a good news story,

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Speaker 1: and it's great to see some research coming out that

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Speaker 1: supports something that we've been agitating for for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Great news.

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Speaker 2: Well, our last setting looked at whether or not smacking

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Speaker 2: kids harms child development. Can I just say I'm struggling

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Speaker 2: to understand why in twenty twenty five we're still having this.

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Speaker 1: Well when not quite a twenty twenty five yet that's

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Speaker 1: still a few weeks away. I'm going to give credit

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Speaker 1: to our happy Famili's audience, and I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: for patients as I explain this study, because it is

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Speaker 1: really important. I know the researcher who's done the study

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Speaker 1: personally from the University of Oklahoma. His name is Bob Lasliir,

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Speaker 1: and he's been researching this for decades. The research appeared

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Speaker 1: in Marriage and Family Review, which is a well regarded journal,

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Speaker 1: and it's called resolving the Contradictory Conclusions from three reviews

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Speaker 1: of controlled longitudinal Studies of physical punishment a meta analysis.

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Speaker 1: Now this is a big one. A meta analysis matter.

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Speaker 1: This is actually quite an important study. For years now,

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Speaker 1: I have said that I fundamentally and completely reject the

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Speaker 1: idea that smacking is a useful disciplinary strategy for kids.

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Speaker 1: And I do that because it's shorthand it's also popular,

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Speaker 1: and because I do believe it. I believe that there

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Speaker 1: are better ways to discipline kids. But in my emails

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Speaker 1: with and in my conversations with him over the years,

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Speaker 1: there's been a couple of things that have really struck me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's a really see what I did? They've

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Speaker 1: really struck me. We're talking about smacking. I'm I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I'll move on. You just rolled You didn't even respond,

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Speaker 1: just rolled your eyes. My goodness. He's argued that smacking

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Speaker 1: should only have a limited place in parenting, and he's

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Speaker 1: also argued that it's not as bad as everyone makes

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Speaker 1: it out to be. And I think that the average

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Speaker 1: Australian parent that's an argument that I hear all the

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Speaker 1: time as well. It's just a little tap. Now, I've

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Speaker 1: got really strong moral and philosophical reasons for arguing against smacking.

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Speaker 1: No one ever smacks and says, oh, look at me

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Speaker 1: nailing parenting. But what Bob has always argued is that

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Speaker 1: there's a dose response. The more you do it, the

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Speaker 1: worse the outcomes. But if you only do it a

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Speaker 1: little bit, if it's measured, and if it's at the

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Speaker 1: right age, his argument is it's okay. And he's been

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Speaker 1: saying this for a long time. His evidence says this.

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Speaker 1: They found that smacking kids explains less than one percent

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Speaker 1: of changes in child outcomes. But he's very clear on

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Speaker 1: what smacking is acceptable and what's smacking is not acceptable.

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Speaker 1: And I cringe as I say this, because for the

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Speaker 1: last twenty years I have actively discouraged smacking, and I've

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Speaker 1: actively said it's just not okay in any circumstances. But

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Speaker 1: I want to be fair to what the data highlights here,

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Speaker 1: and I'm hoping other people can deal with me cringing

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Speaker 1: as I say it. The study recommends that if spanking

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Speaker 1: is used, the most effective approach is two open handed

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Speaker 1: swats on the bottom for children aged two to six

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Speaker 1: when they don't respond to milder discipline. Now again, I'm

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Speaker 1: cringing as I say this, because I don't think that

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Speaker 1: we should be smacking our kids. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: it's necessary. I think that we have far better ways

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Speaker 1: of doing it. But I also know that some parents

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Speaker 1: are out there with sand and you and I both,

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Speaker 1: if we're completely honest, know that over the years, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: from time to time, we've used methods that we don't

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Speaker 1: always agree with because we've been at our wits end

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Speaker 1: and we just need a solution for it.

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Speaker 2: So you also don't use that as a justification. And

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Speaker 2: I think this really kind of is stretching my capacity

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Speaker 2: as far as the research goes, because, like you highlighted earlier,

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Speaker 2: I don't think any parent gives themselves a pat on

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Speaker 2: the back after an experience like that.

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Speaker 1: Now they give themselves a kick in the bump. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The times where that has been a part of my

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Speaker 2: parenting toolkit has been when I've been at my lowest,

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Speaker 2: when I'm struggling as a parent. I'm not sitting there

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Speaker 2: going this is the only option in that moment. There

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Speaker 2: isn't any other options.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not thinking that right, and I'm always going

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Speaker 1: to advocate for alternative methods. I'm sharing this in the

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Speaker 1: doctor's desk because this is a scientific discussion. That's what

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Speaker 1: this podcast is for. I don't disagree with the data,

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Speaker 1: I disagree with the morality and the philosophy. And again,

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Speaker 1: does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And because the other part of me is that

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Speaker 2: the parents who would say to you, I've just given

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Speaker 2: them at a spot and I haven't lost control. I've done

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Speaker 2: this completely intentionally.

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Speaker 1: In cold blood. I can't help them.

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Speaker 2: Moral capacity to make a decision about hitting your child

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Speaker 2: with clarity. It's not a reactive.

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Speaker 1: Response, it's not a justsregulated thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, then you clearly have the capacity to think of

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Speaker 2: another option.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we could talk about that for a while,

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Speaker 1: because this is doctor's desk. I just want to talk

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Speaker 1: about what the science showed, because I think it's fair

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Speaker 1: to the science. Here's what he says. He says he

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Speaker 1: wanted to discover what disciplinary responses are more effective than smacking,

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Speaker 1: so that we can recommend them to replace smacking. His

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Speaker 1: response to that, by the way, is that there are none,

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Speaker 1: although parents should prefer molder and verbal disciplinary responses as

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Speaker 1: much as possible. I've got this thing called the three

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Speaker 1: ees works really well, and he and I've talked about it,

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Speaker 1: and he does like my three e'es. But he keeps

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Speaker 1: going back to this. By the way, he and Diana

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Speaker 1: Borman and don't a lot of studies together. And as

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a huge fan of Dinah Borman.

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Speaker 1: And he says, also, although it is clear that spanking

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Speaker 1: is correlated with adverse outcomes like delinquency, does it cause

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Speaker 1: those outcomes or not? And what his answer is, smacking

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Speaker 1: does not cause harmful outcomes unless it's used too often

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Speaker 1: or too severely, or out of meanness than out of

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Speaker 1: concern for children's welfare. Now. I know you and I

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Speaker 1: are both going to have a response to that, but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get caught up in the response.

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Speaker 1: I just want to report the study essentially, longer channel

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Speaker 1: data meta analysis. I know me too, even as I

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Speaker 1: read it. This is a really hard one to report on.

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Speaker 1: But this is a doctor's desk, and I am a scientist,

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Speaker 1: and the science fascinates me, even if I morally disagree

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Speaker 1: with what it's found. Meta analysis twelve and a half

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Speaker 1: nearly thirteen thousand participants across forty seven studies kids ranging

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Speaker 1: from eighteen months through to eleven years. Researchers focus on

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Speaker 1: four key child outcomes externalizing problems where kids are aggressive

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Speaker 1: and defiant, internalizing problems like anxiety and depression, cognitive performance,

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Speaker 1: and social competence. After controlling for baseline behavior, the research

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Speaker 1: has found that smacking explained less than one percent of

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Speaker 1: the variation in child outcomes. Essentially, what they're basically saying

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Speaker 1: is that smacking has a minimal impact on externalizing problems,

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Speaker 1: internalizing problems, cognitive performance, and social competence. The results fundamentally

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Speaker 1: indicate that previous reports of the harmful effects of smacking

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Speaker 1: may have been overstated due to residual confounding, meaning that

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Speaker 1: other unmeasured factors may have influenced the negative outcomes rather

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Speaker 1: than smacking itself. It could also be that people are

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Speaker 1: measuring smacking that is beyond the two handed swat with

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Speaker 1: two to six year olds. There's any number of reasons

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Speaker 1: that he's got these findings. I'm concerned about it. I

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Speaker 1: think that there's some selective choices that have been made

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Speaker 1: in terms of the studies that are included in the

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Speaker 1: meta analysis. I'm also concerned about it because I think

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Speaker 1: that it gives people a green light for smacking. I'm

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Speaker 1: concerned about it for a whole lot of other reasons

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Speaker 1: that you and I have sort already touched on. But

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Speaker 1: I also need to highlight one other thing, and that

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Speaker 1: is that these findings are in line with a study

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Speaker 1: that was published in Child Development, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest and most important journalist that are out there

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Speaker 1: in this field in twenty twenty one, which did find

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Speaker 1: that occasional wilds banking had minimal negative effects on child behavior.

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Speaker 1: So there it is Kylie Doctor's Desk kind of feeling

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Speaker 1: on a downer really important to highlight. In spite of

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Speaker 1: this research. Obviously, smacking canon does cause significant harm. It

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Speaker 1: can be misused, It is likely to have harmful effects

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Speaker 1: if it is misused, and if it's done too frequently,

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Speaker 1: or if it's done because that's what we've always done,

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Speaker 1: and we allow ourselves to think that it's okay, and

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Speaker 1: we get in the habit of it, that's when we

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Speaker 1: start to get negative outcomes. I hate the study. I

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Speaker 1: hate the research. I hate that it's there. But we've

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Speaker 1: got a couple of studies in the last couple of

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Speaker 1: years that have been very, very very well done by

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Speaker 1: well respected researchers, that are suggesting that if you're getting

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Speaker 1: it wrong, don't forgive the pun, don't beat yourself up

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Speaker 1: about it, but please remember the are better ways to

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Speaker 1: do it. And I've written several books about it. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not sharing this Doctor's Desk episode or this particular

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Speaker 1: study to vindicate or justify the hitting of children. I

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Speaker 1: find it reprehensible. I still reject its usefulness, and I

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Speaker 1: still argue that there are better things out there. If

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Speaker 1: there's any good to come out of this particular one,

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Speaker 1: it's that if you have given your kid a sword

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Speaker 1: because you have been dysregulated and you're so over it

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Speaker 1: and you just don't know what to do. The good

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Speaker 1: news is it's probably not going to have any detrimental

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Speaker 1: effects long term song as you don't keep doing it,

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Speaker 1: so long as you do find better ways.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you were trying to encourage me to enjoy

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Speaker 2: this episode better, you didn't do a very good job

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Speaker 2: of it. I still don't like Doctor's Desk, and especially

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Speaker 2: after today's data.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I still find it fascinating. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the science of it is amazing. I could sit down

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Speaker 1: and do it.

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Speaker 2: But here's the conversation piece. We could talk about this

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Speaker 2: for ages. But you find what you look what you're

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Speaker 2: looking for?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you do, you do.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to justify smacking, then you're going

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Speaker 2: to find data to support caught that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So let's pretend that I didn't do that one,

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Speaker 1: and we'll wrap things up by saying that The Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulla for a Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny. If you'd like more information about how

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Speaker 1: to not smack your kids and actually love them and

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Speaker 1: raise them in wonderful ways that help them to be

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Speaker 1: disciplined and do really well without the punitive stuff and

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Speaker 1: without going down the bob lastly a path, nice guy

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00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: that he is. You can visit us at heavy families

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00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: dot com dot you. I'm going to say, just grab

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00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: my book The Pairing Revolution. It's got everything you need,

427
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 1: like it's so done. Help for pairing and revolution wherever

428
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,959
Speaker 1: you get your books, and you can pretend that we

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Speaker 1: didn't just talk about that. Folks on the other three studies,