1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Hello there. I am taking a little break over Christmas, 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite interviews from 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two to play while I'm away. And if 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: there are any people you'd like to hear from in 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three on how I work, drop me a 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: note via the socials. You can find me on LinkedIn 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: under Amantha Imba and on Instagram at Amantha I. Have 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: you ever noticed that bronze medalists often seem happier than 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: silver medallists? It seems weird, right, but you also sort 10 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: of understand it. If you win bronze, you get to 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: go home as an Olympic medalist, but if you win silver, 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: you probably just end up thinking if only I pushed 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: a little bit harder. Maybe you've felt this yourself, even 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: if you're not an Olympic athlete. Maybe you've got a 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: B plus in school, which is a great mark, but 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: couldn't help thinking about how close you were to an A. 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: That's regret and it feels well bad. But Dan Pink 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: says it's necessary, and he's got a whole lot of 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: research to back it up. Dan is the best selling 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: author of Drive a Whole New Mind, when and now 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: the power of regret how looking backwards moves us forward. 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: Dan is one of my favorite authors, and his last 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: appearance on How I Work was one of my favorite episodes, 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: so I'm super excited to have him back. We discuss 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: why having no regrets is not the superpower people think 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: it is, and how Dan changed his behavior based on 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: regrets in his own life, and how Dan's approach to 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: work and motivation has changed since he wrote Drive many 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: years ago. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and 31 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: this is How I Work, a show about how to 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: help you do your best work. For the last couple 33 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: of years, Dan has immersed himself in the world of 34 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: regret and the power of this underrated emotion. So I 35 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: wanted to know how does regret inform his day to 36 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: day decision making. 37 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: It's changed between today and a few years ago. Before 38 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 2: I started doing the research. I mean, I was someone 39 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: who sort of thought about regretted something to avoid, but 40 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: then when I couldn't avoid it, it really brought me down, 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: and so then I tried to avoid it even more. 42 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: Now I. 43 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: Have a better understanding that regret is a powerful, powerful 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: teacher that regret if we treat it right, not doing 45 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: it the way I was doing it, not ignoring it, 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: not wallowing it, and it can clarify what we value 47 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: and instruct us on how to do better. 48 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: And so what are some of the routines, whether they 49 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: be things that you might do daily or even annually 50 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: to like as the result of investigating regrets. 51 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: So one of the things that I learned was something 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: and this is this is new to me, that doesn't 53 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: mean that it's new. Is something called self compassion, which 54 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: I don't know whether you've talked about that on your 55 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 2: show before. When we make mistakes, we tend to be 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 2: brutal on ourselves. When you think about our self talk, 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: that is the way we talk to ourselves. 58 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 3: It is cruel. 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: I mean, if I were to broadcast my self talk, 60 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: if I were to let you listen in on it, 61 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: you would think I was a lunatic. If if I 62 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: were to use this the way that I talk to 63 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: myself in a workplace, I would be I would be sacked. 64 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: And so what we should do is but that's not useful. 65 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: There's a lot of research showing that self esteem is overrated, 66 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: and self criticism is overrated. What's woefully underrated is something 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: called self passion. And with self compassion, we should look 68 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: at our mistakes and our screw ups and treat ourselves 69 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: with kindness rather than contempt. We should recognize that these 70 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: mistakes are part of the human condition, that everybody has them, 71 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 2: and we should also recognize that our mistakes are a 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: moment in our lives, not the full definition of our lives. 73 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: So that's been really helpful for me to actually treat 74 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: myself with greater compassion. 75 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: And so how do you specifically do that, because there 76 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: are a few strategies in your book, The Power of Regret, 77 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: for I guess giving yourself more self compassion. But what 78 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: do you specifically do? 79 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: So I have some regrets, and I've had some regrets 80 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: about kindness, and the kindness regrets that I have are 81 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: not regrets about having been a bully, having really affirmatively 82 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: mistreated people. I don't think I've ever done that. But 83 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: I have regrets about, in a weird way, about inaction 84 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: in kindness, in actions. So I when I was in school, 85 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: when I was in university, when I was a young professional, 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: there are many situations where people were being excluded, they 87 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: weren't being treated fairly, they weren't being treated right. I 88 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: wasn't doing the affirmative excluding, but I saw it going on, 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: and I knew it was wrong, and I didn't do 90 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 2: a damn thing, and that bugs me to this day. 91 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: Now what do I do with that? So, first of all, 92 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: one of the most important things, and this gets a 93 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: specific question, is ask yourself a question, do you think 94 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: you're the only person who has experienced that regret or 95 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: that mistake? And the answer, having collected regrets from all 96 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 2: over the world over the last couple of years, is 97 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: absolutely not. And so when I look at my mistakes 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: and I say say to myself, you know what, You're 99 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: not that special. There are a lot of people who 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: have those kinds of mistakes. That's a way to minimize 101 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: their pain and then also to begin a process of 102 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: making sense of them. 103 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: And so so. 104 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: Again I think that the specific practice would be are 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: you the only person in the world who's made that 106 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: mistake or had that regret? And the answer, in ninety 107 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: nine times out of one hundred is no freaking way. 108 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: I love that, And I do remember when you actually 109 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: wrote about that in the book around Regrets around Kindness, 110 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: and you write, I believe that you now go about 111 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: making kindness a higher priority, and I was curious as 112 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: to how you're doing that. 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: One of the things that the way this has been 114 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: useful to me is that if something is bugging you 115 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: for ten years or twenty years, that's a message that's 116 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: telling you something you know, and so what it's telling me, 117 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: because I'm sure there are many mistakes that I've made, 118 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 2: many screw ups I've had that I don't even remember anymore. 119 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: Not only do they not bother me, but I barely 120 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: have any recollection of them. So the ones that we 121 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: recollect and that stick with us are very strong signals, 122 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: and there's strong signals about what we value. And the 123 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: fact that this was such a strong signal finally alerted me, 124 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: convinced me that kindness was something that I value, and 125 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: I started. 126 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 3: Thinking about that. 127 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: I said, yeah, actually, the people I admire are often 128 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: very kind. I admire that virtue in people, and so 129 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: so regret in my case clarified what I valued. But 130 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,119 Speaker 2: it also instructed me about how to do things better. 131 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what. Let me give you a 132 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: specific example of this. And if my wife were here, 133 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: she could testify to the truth of this. So again, 134 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: my regrets about kindness were regrets about inaction, and they 135 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: regrets largely about exclusion and people being left out. That 136 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: was going on in front of my eyes, and I 137 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: didn't do anything about. So if you were to see 138 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: me Amna at a social gathering, and many social gatherings 139 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: back in the days when we had social gatherings, they 140 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: are reappearing here in the United States of America, and 141 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: we often see a social gatherings. They're sometimes hard for 142 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: people to navigate. And what you also see are would 143 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: you often sometimes see are like clumps of people talking 144 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: and then maybe one or two or three or four 145 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: or five individuals who are kind of marooned at a 146 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: loss right, And my wife will testify to this. I 147 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: now always like go over to that person and bring 148 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: them into the scrum that I'm in. I always will 149 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: widen the circle to invite other people in. And I 150 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: really think, now again, is that going to qualify me 151 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: for Saint Hoood? 152 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: No? All right, Do I have a lot more work 153 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: to do on kindness? 154 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: Yes, but I would not be doing that had I 155 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: not really faced up to my regrets about kindness, thought 156 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: about them, you know, treated myself with some compassion, tried 157 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: to make sense of those regrets and try to instruct 158 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: myself about what to do next time. 159 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: That sounds that sounds very beautiful. I want to be 160 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: at your events, Dad, because I feel like I'm off 161 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: in that person standing on the ast What what have 162 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: you done on a more macro scale with with your life? 163 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: Like we've sort of talked about some of those, you know, 164 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: concrete day to day things, and you know, I guess 165 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: that is a macro thing, identifying the value of kindness 166 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: being important. But are they you know, perhaps like annual 167 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: rhythms or rituals that you've got into, you know, now 168 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: understanding the power of. 169 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: Regret, well, there are a few things. 170 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: There are a lot of So one thing that I 171 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,599 Speaker 2: that I did this past December at the end of 172 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: the year, is that I listed my top three regrets 173 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: from the year, so as kind of like a preemptive 174 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: New Year's resolution, that is, instead of starting with my 175 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: New Year's resolutions, I said, what are my old year's regrets? 176 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: And so took a small but I limited to three. 177 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in the power of three if 178 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: I said, list ten regrets, maybe you know I don't 179 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: want to. I don't want to try to manufacture these regrets. 180 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 2: So I said, what are the three What are the 181 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 2: three regrets that I that I have for this year 182 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: from this previous year and what? 183 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: And I just thought those through and I listed them. 184 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in getting stuff out of your 185 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: head into a system, whether it's just simply writing it 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: down or typing it into a document or memorializing it somewhere. 187 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: And so I think that practice at the end of 188 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: the year of saying what are the three big regrets 189 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: of the year, can be a catalyst for what to 190 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: do about them. And if you go through this process 191 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: that I'm suggesting you list a regret, you treat yourself 192 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: with kindness rather than contempt. By disclosing it, you're beginning 193 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 2: to make sense of it, and then you try to 194 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: extract a lesson from it. Then I think that's super helpful. 195 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: I love the idea in your book about starting a 196 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: regret circle. Can you talk about that and is that 197 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: something you've thought about doing yourself. 198 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: I definitely have. 199 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: I haven't done that one yet, but it is a 200 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: very simple exercise where you, you get maybe four or 201 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: five people, and each of everybody shares you. So you 202 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: start out, one person shares a regret, that person talks 203 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: about what lesson he or she has learned from it, 204 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: and then you go around and the other people try 205 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: to give them advice and guidance on what to do next. 206 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: Because again, one of the other things that we see 207 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: from that regret teaches us is that there are other 208 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: ways to convey this. Other sources for this as well 209 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: is that we tend to be much better at solving 210 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: other people's problems than our own. So it's another way 211 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: to enlist the crowd to help resolve some of your 212 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 2: own problems, which. 213 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: I guess in a way taps into the idea you 214 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: write about using self distancing strategies like that exactly, Yeah, 215 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: like asking yourself what would your best friend do in 216 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: this situation? A self distancing strategy is something that you use. 217 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: Are there examples where you've use those in your own life? 218 00:11:58,679 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: Oh? 219 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: My god, yes, so many different occasions. So you mentioned the. 220 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 2: Decision making tool of what would you tell your best 221 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: friend to do? I use that all the time. I 222 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: use that all the time. And you know, because so 223 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: I'll give you. I'll give you a very specific for instance. 224 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: So I have been contemplating taking a sabbatical because I 225 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 2: am slightly burnt out and you know, sort of contemplating, 226 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: you know, the next couple decades of my life. But 227 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: I'm a little bit skittish about taking a sabbatical because 228 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: I feel like it might I might not accomplish anything. 229 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: I might be spinning my wheels. It might be indulgent, 230 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: it might not be productive. And as I contemplated it, 231 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 2: I asked. 232 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: That very question. 233 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: I say, what would you tell your best friend to do? 234 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 2: And if I would say take the sabbatical, like, I 235 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: don't even have to think about it when I do 236 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: that kind of when I do that kind of self 237 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: diss and saying. 238 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 3: So I use that a lot. 239 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: Another self distancing technique is talking to yourself in the 240 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: third person. I use that a lot for exercise and sports. 241 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: So when I'm running long distances, I will it's embarrassing, 242 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 2: but I will like yell at my not yell at myself, 243 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: but sort of exhort myself using my first name. So yeah, 244 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: I use that all the I use that all the time. 245 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: I'm telling you the thing, what would I tell my 246 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: best friend to do is the best decision making tool 247 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: there is. 248 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've absolutely used that one before and it is 249 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: so helpful. I want to talk about writing. One of 250 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: the things that you do so well is you tell stories. 251 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: And you're so great at making science and data not 252 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: just understandable but memorable. And I would love to know 253 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: what's your process for finding those stories. And really, in 254 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: the Power of Regret, they're all real life stories that 255 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: illust the points. 256 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 3: Well on this one. 257 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: I mean, for this book, I had, you know, a 258 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 2: pretty distinct approach in that one of the things that 259 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: to write that give me let me take two steps 260 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: back for listeners who won't know this. So for this 261 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: book The Power of Regret, I relied on three legs 262 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: of a research stool. The first leg was looking at 263 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: some existing science on this emotion of regret, in particularly 264 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: social psychology, developmental psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, to try to 265 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: say what is science existing science tell us about this emotion. 266 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: The second leg was something that I called the American 267 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: Regret Project, which was a piece of quantitative research, numbers 268 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: based research, where I did a very large public opinion 269 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: survey of the US population, the largest survey of US 270 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: attitudes about regret ever conducted and tried to find some 271 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: insights there. And then the third and this is going 272 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: to get to your question, is I also set up 273 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: something called the World Regret Survey, which was a giant 274 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: collection tool where I invited people from around the world 275 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: to submit a regret, and to my astonishment, we got 276 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand, you know, very very quickly, and we're now 277 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: over nineteen thousand regrets from people in one hundred and 278 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: five one hundred and nine countries right now. And on 279 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: that what I did so first of all, in that 280 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: one I read through at least the first fifteen thousand 281 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: regrets and started separating out the ones that I found 282 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: super compelling. What's more is that I gave people who 283 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: filled out those survey the option of including their email. 284 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: It was anonymous, but they could include their email address 285 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: if they wanted to have a follow up interview. 286 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: And so and so. 287 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: I read through the regrets, I found certain ones that 288 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: were compelling. If there were ones that were compelling and 289 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: the person was willing to talk to me, I would 290 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: reach out to them by email and do interviews. So 291 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: I did hundreds of interviews to try to find the 292 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: very best, most telling stories. 293 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: And how do you know when a story is going 294 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: to be effective enough to get your point across? 295 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 296 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know, and I don't have 297 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: a way to do that. I mean, some of it 298 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: is a some of it is a gut some of 299 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: it is a gut instinct. What I tend to do 300 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: is I tend to tell the story to somebody else 301 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: and see whether they lean in or their eyes glaze over. 302 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 3: That's, to me sometimes a good test. 303 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: And also the other thing about it is that the 304 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: stories you use are not equally weighted. That is, sometimes 305 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: a story can be brilliant for three sentences, you know 306 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: what I mean, and it doesn't deserve much more of that. 307 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: Sometimes a story needs three pages. And so I think 308 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: that knowing how much weight the story deserves is really 309 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 2: important as well. And one of the things that I 310 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: think that less experienced writers do is that they don't 311 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: wait the stories properly. That is, they think, well, I 312 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: found out all this information about this person, therefore I 313 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: need to report it. And that's often that's often a mistake. 314 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 2: And knowing like, oh my gosh, I've done three interviews 315 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: with this person, and it's taken me three and a 316 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: half hours of my life. But you know what, I 317 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: just need a sentence. You got to be good with that, 318 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 2: and that's really important. The same thing is true with research. 319 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: You have to be able to explain the research thoroughly enough, 320 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: but in a way that serves the readers rather than 321 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: validates your decisions to do the research. So let me 322 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: be specific there. So there's in the book I wrote about. 323 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: I looked at some of the research on when children 324 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 2: developed the capacity for regret, So a lot of developmental psychology, 325 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: lots and lots of experiments of giving say, five year 326 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: old scenarios and then seven year old scenarios and then 327 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: nine year oldsarios and seeing where they comprehend the idea 328 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: of regret. 329 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 3: There I probably read. 330 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 2: I probably spent a month reading these papers and looking 331 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: at some textbooks and things. Probably ended up reading I 332 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: don't know, fifty to fifty five studies on this question. 333 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 2: And when I got to writing it, I realized I 334 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: could explain it all in like a paragraph. 335 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: Wow, that must take a lot of restraint. 336 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: It does, believe me, it does. But here's the thing. 337 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: Here's the way I look at it. It's like the 338 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: only thing worse than saying, oh crap, I just took 339 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: a month of work and only got a paragraph out 340 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 2: of it. 341 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: I don't like that. Believe me. 342 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: That's not a happy day in the Pink householder, in 343 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: Pinking World headquarters here, that is not a happy day. However, 344 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 2: what is an even worse day is torturing readers. Is 345 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: giving readers something that they don't need that really bugs 346 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: That bugs me even more so. It's a question of, 347 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: as is often the case in life in general, in 348 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: my life in particular, which variety and intensity of discontent 349 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: do you prefer? 350 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: And how do you know that you are going to 351 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: be torturing readers? I guess that's the key question, Like 352 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: how do you know that they don't want to hold 353 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: chapter around kids and regrets? 354 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: I have a I that I think is easier because 355 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 2: if it bores me, you know, it's like, Okay, I 356 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: don't want to read this. I think I think that's 357 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: I mean, that's I think that's a lot. I think 358 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 2: that's a lot easier. And again, you know what you 359 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 2: want to do is you want to my I mean, 360 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: this is my own bias, but I think I've always 361 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: I think that most nonfiction books, and I've gotten in 362 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: trouble for saying this, but I think that most nonfiction 363 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: books are too long. I think that most books would 364 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: be many of many books would be twice as good 365 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: if they were half as long, because I think that 366 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 2: that they the authors aren't concise enough, there's too much 367 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: fluff in them, and that many of these books probably 368 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 2: don't deserve to be full fledged books. And so I 369 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: try to be pretty relentless about what I put in 370 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: there and and more important, what. 371 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: I leave out. 372 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: The high I mean, my favorite compliment in this book 373 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: was I was in the UK two weeks ago and 374 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 2: I did an interview, a radio interview, and the producer said, 375 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 2: you know this book is this book is really good, 376 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 2: like there's no fluff, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, there's 377 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: no fluff. 378 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: I would wholeheartedly agree with that, and just pacing it 379 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: moves quickly. I completely agree with what you're saying with 380 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: nonfiction books. I love the story of Cheryl and her 381 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: friendship with Jen, or rather her lost friendship with Jen. 382 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: How did you decide that that was going to be 383 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: one of the key stories in the book that you 384 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: took throughout it? 385 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: Partly because I found it a very relatable story for myself, 386 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: because I could see myself in the story, So as 387 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 2: narcissistic as that might sound, that was part of it. 388 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 2: And the other part of it was is that the 389 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: the it was basically the color and emotion with which 390 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: Cheryl described things and the fact that she was so 391 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: racked by this. 392 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: I found that I found that pretty compelling. 393 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 2: What's more is that this was quite representative of a 394 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: lot of regrets, So when when when you know there 395 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 2: were there were plenty of regrets very very much like Cheryl's. 396 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: So I felt like this was I could see myself 397 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: in it, and I knew that it was representing other 398 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: people as well. 399 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: I could definitely relate to that very relatable story. We 400 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: will be back with Dan soon hearing about the online 401 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: research tools that he swears by, and if you're looking 402 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work, I 403 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things 404 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: that I've discovered that helped me work better, which ranged 405 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: from interesting recent findings three to gadgets and software that 406 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm loving. You can sign up for that at Howiwork 407 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: dot co. That's how I Work dot CO. Now, research 408 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: is a huge part of your process, and as you mentioned, 409 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: the research process for the Power of Regret was a 410 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: bit different because you conducted your own very large scale research. 411 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: But still there's a whole lot of academic research backing 412 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: up the points that you're making. And i'd love to know, 413 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: once you've decided on the topic that your next book 414 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: is going to be about, what does that research process 415 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: look like. 416 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's semi systematic in that. 417 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: So before I write a book, I will write a 418 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: book proposal, And in writing a book proposal, I will 419 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: look in in a cursory way at the key pieces 420 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: of academic reseoar or, at least for this one, the 421 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 2: key pieces of academic research, just to get sort of 422 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: the skeleton, just to get the broad ideas and so 423 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: and so I have a sense of what the broad 424 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: contours are, but at a very broad level of what 425 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: the what the research says. So then when I start 426 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: the real research, I'll go back and I'll read those papers. 427 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: Again more important as I will go to the footnotes 428 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: to see what's being cited a lot pull those papers, 429 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: read those, go to their footnotes, read those, and eventually 430 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: I'll it'll start to get a little recursive that I'll 431 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: start kind of chasing my tail, and I say, okay, 432 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: I feel like in this one area I've sort of 433 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: sort of figured out. 434 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 3: The main things to read in what they in, what 435 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 3: they say. 436 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: And then then I'll do that for other kinds of 437 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 2: topics and subtopics. And then at a certain point I 438 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: will start trying to see the structure of the book, 439 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: and you know, I'll come into it with a vague 440 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: sense of what. 441 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: The structure is. It's usually wrong. That's okay. 442 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: I'll come in and then then I often will start 443 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: writing a piece of it. And for me, when I 444 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 2: start writing it, I realize I understand and the structure better. 445 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: I realize what's working with destructure and what's not working 446 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: with the structure. I also realize what more research I 447 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: need to do, and so I'll sort of begin the 448 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 2: process again, except that there'll be less research to do 449 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: and I'll go back to writing. And so that's it's 450 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: sort of like these recursive, these recursive loops between clinging 451 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: into the research, doing some writing and figuring it out, 452 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 2: using that to do a little more research, doing that, 453 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 2: then coming back and so the balance between research and 454 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: writing starts to shift from mostly research and little writing 455 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: to a balance to at. 456 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 3: A certain point mostly writing and very little more research. 457 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: Are the key tools, like online tools, for example, that 458 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: you use to do your research. 459 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan, believe it or not, of Google Scholar, 460 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 2: which is a database that Google has that is that 461 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: is very good at finding all kinds of all kinds 462 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: of academic pays papers. It is a very it's it's 463 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: it's a free tool. It's a simple tool, and it 464 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: works extraordinarily. It works extraordinarily. 465 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: Well, are there any other pieces of software that you 466 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 1: find quite useful for for your work and organizing your 467 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: thinking or productivity in general? 468 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 3: Sure? I use, though there are a bunch of different things. 469 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: So I well, when you say software, I mean I 470 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: actually still rely more on paper than a lot of people. 471 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 2: I for for the research that I care about. I 472 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: print out every paper that I want to read. I 473 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: read every everything on paper, all the all the things 474 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: on paper, and then I actually put them in paper 475 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: files as well. So it's bad environmentally, it's good cognitively 476 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: at least for me, and I put all of and 477 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: so I have these massive, uh kind of according files 478 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 2: organized by either chapter or parts of chapter and so 479 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: forth that are stuffed with paper. 480 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 3: So I do it. 481 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: So I so I use again, I use a lot 482 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: of paper in organizing the regrets from this these thousands. 483 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 3: Of regrets from the World Regrets Server. 484 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: I printed out an enormous number of them, and when 485 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: I was thinking about categorizing them, my first move and 486 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: categorizing them was laying them out on a table in 487 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: my office and just stacking them up and restacking them 488 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 2: and seeing what categories made sense to me. So a 489 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 2: lot of it is very for me, is very physical 490 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 2: and analog. Now that set, there are few tools that 491 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: I that I really like. I am a maybe it's 492 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: a very simple tool, but you know, Dropbox. If terrorists 493 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: hit the drop Box servers, I would be out of 494 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: work for. 495 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 3: The rest of my life. 496 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: I organize a lot on Dropbox, and so that's really 497 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: important to me. And then another one is less well 498 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: known that I use for trying to organize ideas is 499 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: a piece of software called it's very inexpensive. I think 500 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: it's like twenty bucks US. It's called it's called scalpele 501 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 2: s C A P P l E. It is a 502 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: it's kind of a mind mapping software. But it's the 503 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: best mind mapping software that I have. It's it's by 504 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 2: an independent developer, it's not by one of the big 505 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: tech companies, and so I use Scalpal on every chapter 506 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: in this latest book. 507 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: Wow, I've never heard of that software. I'm gonna look 508 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: that up. 509 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's very good. 510 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: It's it's a it's a it's a it's a traditional 511 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,479 Speaker 2: it's it's mind mapping software. Which there are plenty of, 512 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: plenty of types of mind mapping software. In my view, 513 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: this one seems the most intuitive, the most user friendly, 514 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: and actually has the fewest bells and whistles on it. 515 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: A lot of the mind mapping software has so many 516 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: extra features that you don't need that ends up being confusing. 517 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: This is very very simple, very elegant, uh, very elegant program. 518 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: Now, a lot of the power of Regret is about 519 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: how we can use has mistakes to reorient actions or 520 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: even our goals in the present. And you're like, you're 521 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: obviously very well known for writing about motivation and goals 522 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: when you wrote Drive, and I was wondering for you, like, 523 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: as the way that you set goals or think about 524 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: motivation in your own life changed much since you wrote Drive. 525 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a little bit. 526 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 2: I mean what I mean, maybe maybe even maybe even 527 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: quite a bit. I mean it helped me understand, I think, 528 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: why I became self employed twenty plus years ago. You know, 529 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: I hadn't written about you know, I didn't know the 530 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: research on autonomy then. But once I understood, it's like, oh, 531 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: that makes sense about why I did what I did. 532 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: So it helped inform my understanding of myself, which is 533 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: often somewhat useful. One thing that it did is on 534 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: the on the principle of mastery. It it helped me 535 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: understand the importance of daily progress. So I'm pretty obsessive about, 536 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: you know, recording and charting my daily progress. So so 537 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: you know, at the end of every day, I list 538 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: what I got done that day, or at least three 539 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: three big things I got done that day. 540 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 3: I for my. 541 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: Uh for even for exercise and running, I always log 542 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: the the miles that I run. I don't do it 543 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: in kilometer as I should, but I do it in miles. 544 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: Log the miles that I run. And so that's that's changed. 545 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: How how how I do. 546 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 3: A lot of stuff day to day and on purpose. 547 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: I do ask myself a lot, try to ask myself 548 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: as many times as possible, like why I'm doing something, 549 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: even if I'm in the weeds of writing a book, 550 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: even the weeds of writing a chapter. You know, instead 551 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: of saying to myself, Okay, how do I finish this chapter? 552 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: You know, how do how do I get this to work? 553 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: I think I take a step back and say, Okay, 554 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: why am I writing this chapter? Why is this advanced? 555 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: The story Lias is good for readers, so I do. 556 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: I guess I do not think about employee a lot 557 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: of that stuff day to day on my own. 558 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: What was your answer to that question when you were 559 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 1: writing The Power of Regret? Was there a macro reason 560 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: or motivating factor? 561 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, No, on that there was definitely a 562 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 3: macro reason there. 563 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: And actually figuring out that macro reason was really important 564 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: to me because I was kind of spinning my wheels 565 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: for a while until I figured that out. And for me, 566 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: what I wanted to do was the macro reason was 567 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: to try to reclaim this emotion because I just think 568 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: we've so fundamentally misunderstood the emotion of regret. We think 569 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: that it is dangerous, when in fact it is actually useful. 570 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 2: We think that it makes us weak, when in fact 571 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: it can make us strong. And so I wanted to 572 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: reclaim this emotion because I'm convinced it's our most transformative 573 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: emotion and that if people know how to deal with it, 574 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: they're going to lead better lives. So on this one, 575 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: there was there was a little bit more or perhaps 576 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: than maybe than some of the other ones that are 577 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: a little bit more of a missionary zeal on this 578 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 2: one than on the others. 579 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: What gave you the idea to write about regret? Because, 580 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: as I said, it doesn't seem like an obvious thing 581 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: to do. 582 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: Because I was, you know, because I was, I was 583 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: dealing with the regrets of my own and I was 584 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: also at a stage in my life where I was 585 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: pondering these things. So, you know, I don't know if 586 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: I would have I mean, I've been writing books for 587 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: twenty years, to my amazement, and I don't think I 588 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: would have written this book in my thirties. 589 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't think I had enough mileage 590 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 3: on me. 591 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: But in my fifties it felt kind of inevitable because 592 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: I was looking backward at decisions i'd made or hadn't 593 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: made and some of them bothered me, and I said, Okay, 594 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: how can I use this to live the rest of 595 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: my life? And you know, one of the things that 596 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 2: I've discovered going back to self compassion is that you know, well, 597 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: all of us are kind of special in our own way. 598 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,719 Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. We're actually not 599 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: that special. So if I'm reckoning with regrets, if I'm 600 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: wrestling with regrets, then chances are other people are too, 601 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: and that suggests that there's a wider appeal for this topic. 602 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 3: Then might meet the eye. 603 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: And like, how do you decide that this is like 604 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: this warrants you know, spending the next three or so 605 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: years of your life on Like how did you know 606 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: it was that important? Because that's essentially what we're talking about, 607 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: if not longer when it comes to writing a book. 608 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 3: Oh it's even longer. 609 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: I mean I got a call from a newspaper reporter 610 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: last week about a book I wrote twenty years ago. 611 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 3: You know. 612 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: So this is one reason why I write book proposals 613 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: before agreeing to write a book. And for me, a 614 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 2: book proposal is usually twenty five or thirty pages long, 615 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: and it lays out what the book is, who I 616 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: think is going to buy it, why it's different from 617 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: anything else. And that action does two things. First, it 618 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: forces me to say, okay, do I actually want to 619 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: spend time with this idea? And there are a lot 620 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 2: of ideas that you don't want to spend that much 621 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: time with and so and then also it allows you 622 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: to see whether there's a there there. And because if 623 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: you can't sustain it very easily in thirty five pages, 624 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to sustain it very 625 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 2: easily in two hundred and seventy five pages. And so 626 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: to me, that book proposal is a really great test. 627 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 3: And I have had situations. 628 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: Where I once years ago, was between books, figuring out 629 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: what to do next, and I my wife and I 630 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: had we had little kids at the time, and I said, okay, guys, 631 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 2: I got to like write a proposal for a new book. 632 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 2: I'm not getting any traction on this thing. And I 633 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: sent them away to my in law's house and I said, okay, 634 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: give me, guys, give me two weeks and I can 635 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 2: you know that way I can just I got to 636 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: get this thing done, and I don't want to torture 637 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 2: you and you guys can have fun without me. And 638 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 2: so I buggled down, and I think after like eight 639 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 2: or nine days, I called my wife and I said, 640 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: I got some good news and some bad news. The 641 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: good news is that you can come home now. The 642 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: bad news is because in writing this proposal, I realized 643 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 2: this is not a book. This does not hold together 644 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: as a book. And believe me a man, I'd much 645 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 2: rather find it out then than after I'd contracted to 646 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: write a book and how to disappoint my editors and deal. 647 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 3: With that stuff. 648 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. And I remember when when I last had 649 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: you on how I work, we did go into quite 650 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: a bit of depth around writing a book proposal. So 651 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: for anyone that these listening and it's like what is 652 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: the book proposal? I will link to that past interview 653 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: in the show notes. Now, I remember, like, right at 654 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: the end of the book, you also write about another 655 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: regret that you have, and you say that you regret 656 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: not forging enough close connections with friends and mentors and colleagues, 657 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: and now you try how to reach out. And I 658 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: was wondering, what does that look like, what practically do 659 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: you find yourself doing now to act on that regret. 660 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: Well, one thing is that if I find myself at 661 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: a juncture, saying oh, I'm thinking about person A, should 662 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: I reach out? Being at that juncture answers the question 663 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 2: for me. So I've done a much better job about 664 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: sending someone a text message saying, hey, do. 665 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 3: You have fifteen minutes to talk this weekend? 666 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 2: Nothing wrong, no agenda, I just want to see how 667 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: you're doing, Like I would never do that before, and 668 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: now I do that. 669 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 3: What else do you do on the reaching out? 670 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: I'm trying on this one is that I'm I'm a 671 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: little bit more likely to initiate a social gathering than 672 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 2: I have been in the past. Usually I never any 673 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 2: social gatherings and actually often tried to avoid them and 674 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 2: so so so I'm getting a little bit better about 675 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 2: trying to initiate those. 676 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: Now, Dan, four people that want to consume more of 677 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: your work and certainly the power of regret. What's the 678 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: best way for people to do that? 679 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 2: I just go to my website, which is Dan Pink 680 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 2: da n p I n K dot com, Dan Pink 681 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 2: dot com. 682 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: Amazing, Dan, thank you for writing yet another just amazing 683 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 1: book that has certainly changed my life. 684 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 3: So thank you. Thanks for doing what you do. Thanks 685 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 3: for having me back on the podcast. Maybe I'll write 686 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 3: another one so I can come back again in a 687 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 3: few years. 688 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, please do don't take that sabbatical. 689 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 2: No do. 690 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: It sounds like that's quickly for you to do. 691 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 3: Well. 692 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Dan. There were so many things 693 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: that I took out of this chat with Dan, and 694 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: also his new book, The Power of Regrets, which I loved. 695 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: I really was into the idea about Dan's annual reflection 696 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: on his top three regrets from the past year to 697 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: inform the year ahead. It's definitely one of the many 698 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: things that I plan to try implementing in my year ahead. Now, 699 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: if you're loving How I Work, maybe you might want 700 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: to recommend it to other people that you think would 701 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: also benefit. You can simply hit the share icon wherever 702 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast from and share it with 703 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,879 Speaker 1: someone else that you think would like it. Thank you 704 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: for sharing part of your day with me by listening 705 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: to How I Work. If you're keen for more tips 706 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: on how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn 707 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just search for 708 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on the traditional 709 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: land of the Warrenery people, part of the cool and nation. 710 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: I am so grateful for being able to work and 711 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: live on this beautiful land, and I want to pay 712 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. How I 713 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead 714 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Reardon, 715 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: and thank you to Martin Nimba who did the audio 716 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.