1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,519
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,000
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.

3
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,960
Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now. Hello,

4
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: this is the Happy Family's podcast. My name is Stops

5
00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 1: Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families and the parenting

6
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 1: expert on the hit TV show Parental Guidance. Season two

7
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,919
Speaker 1: just weeks away to being on your screens on the

8
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 1: Channel nine. Cannot wait for you to see season two

9
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: On the podcast. Today, I'm speaking to Amy Taylor Cabaz.

10
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 1: She's the founder of the Happy Mumma movement, author of

11
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: Mumma Rising, and she has her own podcasts as well.

12
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,839
Speaker 1: Amy thinks deeply about what it means to be a

13
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,839
Speaker 1: mum in modern times, embracing the beautiful mess and the

14
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: idea of what you might have heard of before. It's

15
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,760
Speaker 1: a word that doesn't get thrown around a lot. It's

16
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 1: called matrescence.

17
00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 2: One of the biggest realizations I've had, not only in

18
00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,560
Speaker 2: my own experience of motherhood over the last fifteen years,

19
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 2: but the thousands of mums that I've coached through my

20
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,960
Speaker 2: programs over the years, is that we never feel like

21
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,119
Speaker 2: we're on top of it. We never feel like we've

22
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 2: nailed this parenting thing. In fact, that's not true. I

23
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,240
Speaker 2: have fleeting moments of thinking, God, that's.

24
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,000
Speaker 1: Good, Amy, this is I've got it, I've got.

25
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 2: It, and then three seconds later, one of them will yell,

26
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,000
Speaker 2: one of them will do something, something will happen, and

27
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,520
Speaker 2: that feeling's gone again. So I think it's come to

28
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 2: the point where now I'm just at that point of

29
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 2: acceptance that this is what it looks like and this

30
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 2: is actually doing a great job, you know, headscarf and all.

31
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,960
Speaker 1: I have a question for you, a headscarf lady, how

32
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,200
Speaker 1: old were you when you finally made it to that point,

33
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,759
Speaker 1: because this is a critically important thing I reckon while

34
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:48,400
Speaker 1: you're pondering your answer, I'm dangerously close to fifty. I'm

35
00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,400
Speaker 1: in my late forties now, and again, I never I mean,

36
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,120
Speaker 1: those words just don't make sense to me. I'm so

37
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,320
Speaker 1: old that my eldest daughter, who's been married for three

38
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,080
Speaker 1: and a bit years, is having serious conversation about her

39
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,800
Speaker 1: procreative capacity. And I mean, I don't even want to

40
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,480
Speaker 1: say the word, but I'm going to say it because

41
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: we're on the summit. But the word grandfather, yeh is

42
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,359
Speaker 1: starting to pop up in conversations. I mean, there's nothing,

43
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 1: nothing happening yet, but the suggestion is that the next

44
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 1: couple of years. And I mean, here's how old I

45
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,480
Speaker 1: am the other night, So not not long ago. We

46
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 1: moved to the coast a few months ago and moved

47
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 1: the coast and a great neighborhood, great community. Some people

48
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:28,920
Speaker 1: that we didn't know said, hey, why do you come

49
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,360
Speaker 1: and have dinner with us on Friday nights? So we

50
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 1: went out for dinner just the other week and we're

51
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 1: sitting with these people and they're definitely a couple of

52
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 1: years older than us, and their kids are all adults,

53
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,240
Speaker 1: but they only had a couple of kids, and I mean,

54
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of adult kids now as well,

55
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,920
Speaker 1: three of them, and so we didn't really think that

56
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 1: there was much of a difference between us. And this

57
00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: is the terrifying thing. They don't look that much older

58
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,399
Speaker 1: than us. They're definitely older than us, maybe five seven

59
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:55,840
Speaker 1: years older. She's sixty three and he's sixty one. And

60
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,079
Speaker 1: I'm like, what am I going to dinner with sixty

61
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 1: year olds? For what's happened to me? But like it

62
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,359
Speaker 1: creeps up on us, doesn't it. So how old were

63
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 1: you when you kind of went this is kind of

64
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 1: who I am, and the whole hot mess thing. I

65
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 1: just need to accept that this is what life actually is.

66
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,079
Speaker 1: It's a process of making it up as we go along,

67
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 1: but hopefully getting better at the stuff we're making up

68
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: because we get to experience more and more. When did

69
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 1: it really kind of start to click for you?

70
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,360
Speaker 2: My youngest is eight. I have three children at the moment, fourteen, twelve,

71
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 2: and eight, and I think when he was about four,

72
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 2: three or four. I call it in my work the

73
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 2: inner mean Mama, this internal dialogue that says, you're doing

74
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 2: a bad job, you should be doing better, You're screwing

75
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,560
Speaker 2: this up. I can't do this anymore. That it's almost

76
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,840
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's so unconscious we don't even realize we're telling ourselves.

77
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 2: I think it was about three or four years into

78
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,720
Speaker 2: his life that I really started to be able to

79
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 2: silence that in a consistent way. Is it still there? Yes,

80
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 2: it was there yesterday. But I know how to recognize it.

81
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 2: I know it's not my truth, and I know how

82
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,240
Speaker 2: to speak back to it. But that took I started

83
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 2: that process when my first was born fourteen years ago.

84
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,080
Speaker 2: It's taken me a really, really long time to turn

85
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 2: that in a judgment off and silence it. I think now,

86
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,560
Speaker 2: and I can say this without ego and quite strongly.

87
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,240
Speaker 2: I know I'm a great mum to my kids, but

88
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean I'm perfect. I just know that I'm

89
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,279
Speaker 2: doing the best I can every single day, and it's

90
00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,040
Speaker 2: taken me a long time to feel confident in that. However,

91
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 2: I am still working much more strongly on feeling like

92
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,919
Speaker 2: less of a hot mess in other parts of my life.

93
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,920
Speaker 2: So it's like I shifted all my focus on too

94
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,839
Speaker 2: really taming that inner mean mumma voice for many, many years.

95
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 2: And because my kids are now at that beautiful age

96
00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 2: where we can have conversations and I can and see that,

97
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 2: you know what, they are growing into really great human beings.

98
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 2: I think when they're really little, it's hard to know

99
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 2: if you're doing a good job. It's hard to know

100
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,400
Speaker 2: whether those toddler tantrums are going to turn into a

101
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 2: you know, an adolescent that you know breaks into homes

102
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 2: and gets drunk, and you know, it's harder to know

103
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,599
Speaker 2: you're on the right track when they're really little. Now

104
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,720
Speaker 2: that my kids are this age and we sit around

105
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,839
Speaker 2: the dinner table and have these amazing conversations like it's

106
00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,159
Speaker 2: my favorite part of parenthood to hear them talk about

107
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 2: their worries about the planet, their reflections on what they

108
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 2: saw on the news, their way that they're handling a

109
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 2: difficult friendship at school. Even my eight year old you know,

110
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,640
Speaker 2: I can see, yeah, okay, we're on the right track.

111
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,279
Speaker 2: Other parts of my life, like work relationships, there's still

112
00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:54,400
Speaker 2: an ongoing internal coaching that I have to do to

113
00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,360
Speaker 2: just settle this perfectionist tendency I've always had ever since

114
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 2: I was little, about how perfectly I need to have

115
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:02,919
Speaker 2: this all done.

116
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,920
Speaker 1: I really like the idea of experience. As I'm hearing

117
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 1: what you're reflecting. I mean, this is why I had

118
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 1: six kids, right. We just keep on going till we

119
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 1: get it right. I'm just kidding. But what we found

120
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,480
Speaker 1: is the more kids we've had and the more experience

121
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 1: we've had with child rearing, the more comfortable we've become

122
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,080
Speaker 1: with what matters and what does and the less that questioning, nagging,

123
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:30,440
Speaker 1: doubting voice has impact on us, and we become increasingly settled. Amy.

124
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,440
Speaker 1: I've got a copy of your book, Mumma Rising, but

125
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,159
Speaker 1: it's just out of reach on the floor behind me.

126
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 1: Because when Kylie and I were recording a podcast the

127
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:37,760
Speaker 1: other day, she had it in the hand and she

128
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,599
Speaker 1: placed it on the floor there. I can't go go

129
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 1: gadget arms to get it, and I want to stay

130
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,839
Speaker 1: here in front of the in front of the camera

131
00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 1: while I'm chatting with you. So I'm just going to

132
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: need everyone to believe that you've written a book called

133
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 1: Mumma Rising, and imagine that I'm holding it up for you.

134
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this now. This conversation as part of

135
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,719
Speaker 1: the hot Mess Summit is probably give more towards mums

136
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,559
Speaker 1: than dads, but I think dads will certainly learn and

137
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,720
Speaker 1: get great value out of this discussion. So Dad's hang

138
00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 1: around for this one please. I've got a handful of

139
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 1: questions about what you've written in the book, and a

140
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: handful of questions about the whole subject of being a

141
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 1: hot mess. So, now that we know how old we

142
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,440
Speaker 1: are and how we are all just making it up

143
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,280
Speaker 1: as we go along, I want to go back to

144
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,120
Speaker 1: the beginnings of parenthood for just a sec As we

145
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 1: as we first become parents, we often come to what

146
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 1: with the perfect image of what we think it should be.

147
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 1: I know my perfect image was my kids will listen

148
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,120
Speaker 1: to me and do us they're told, which was a

149
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 1: disastrous approach to parenting. It didn't work very well at all.

150
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,600
Speaker 1: But you speak a lot about where that perfect image

151
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 1: comes from and how to change it. Can we just

152
00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 1: start there?

153
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,640
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's so important for us to get

154
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 2: a cultural and historical understanding of where we get these

155
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 2: ideas from, because you know, whether you're our age, justin

156
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 2: or younger, most women on the planet have been told

157
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 2: since they were born that they could do anything. That

158
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 2: we are in the generation now of theist and that

159
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 2: we now have choice, although it depends on where in

160
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,520
Speaker 2: the world do you have that choice right now? But

161
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,440
Speaker 2: we have this ability to be a mum and be

162
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 2: something else. You know, I distinctly remember growing up feeling

163
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 2: like I needed to never be just a mum. Being

164
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,800
Speaker 2: just a mum was a waste of my skills, my talents,

165
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 2: my life because we were really raised in this era

166
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 2: of our opportunity and the glass ceiling and you know,

167
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,200
Speaker 2: smashing through the glass ceiling. But what that did to

168
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 2: our generation and is still doing in a lot of ways,

169
00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 2: is undervaluing motherhood.

170
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,440
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that, because as you say,

171
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,520
Speaker 1: just a mum. I pause and Kylie only ever wanted

172
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 1: to be a mum.

173
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've worked with a lot of women who

174
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 2: say that as well, Like Amly, I actually did only

175
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 2: ever want to be a mum, but I felt like

176
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,439
Speaker 2: that wasn't enough by others.

177
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

178
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,680
Speaker 2: So no matter how you came to it, whether it's

179
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,599
Speaker 2: a surprising turn of events to want to be a

180
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,000
Speaker 2: mom so much because you thought you'd always be career driven,

181
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,080
Speaker 2: or whether it's been ever since you're a little girl

182
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 2: you knew that motherhood was your thing. We come to

183
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 2: this and in the moment of becoming a mother, we

184
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 2: experience what we know now as matrescence. It's this change

185
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,760
Speaker 2: in identity. It's not only a change in your brain

186
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 2: and in your hormones and in your body, of course, but

187
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,640
Speaker 2: it's also a change in how you view the world,

188
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 2: how you view yourself, your relationships, your economic status, your

189
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,040
Speaker 2: position in society, all of it. The best way to

190
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,280
Speaker 2: understand it is like matrescence is like adolescence. It's this

191
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,560
Speaker 2: period of becoming this new version of yourself. So just

192
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 2: like a child doesn't wake up on its thirteenth birthday

193
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,560
Speaker 2: and is suddenly an adult. There's this period of and

194
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,920
Speaker 2: you would know better than anyone that it's actually almost

195
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,880
Speaker 2: a decade of brain changes, hormonal changes, but also personal

196
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,240
Speaker 2: changes of pushing back and questioning and and exploring different

197
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 2: things and changing your mind about who you want to

198
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 2: be and what you're here to do, and this real

199
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 2: transition period. And we know now that that's also what

200
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 2: happens to a woman when she becomes a mother, and

201
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 2: so if we are to so for example, for me,

202
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 2: I always thought that, yeah, I'd love to be a mum,

203
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 2: but it will be something that I almost add to

204
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 2: my life. But nothing else will change. You know, I'll

205
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 2: still be I know.

206
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,400
Speaker 1: We laugh now I'm going to say famous last words,

207
00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:33,559
Speaker 1: but you yes.

208
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 2: Literally changed everything, as it does for all of us,

209
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,840
Speaker 2: whether we're aware of it or not. But I thought

210
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 2: it would be something I could almost add to my

211
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 2: resume in the sense of I'll still work the way

212
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,719
Speaker 2: I've always worked. I remember my husband and I had

213
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,079
Speaker 2: a conversation when I was pregnant with our first baby.

214
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,559
Speaker 2: You know, this is not going to change us, This

215
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 2: is not going to change our relationship. We made these

216
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,840
Speaker 2: commitments not to change. We were still going to be

217
00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:03,400
Speaker 2: who we were, and that's literally impossible. Motherhood, parenthood, fatherhood

218
00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,679
Speaker 2: changes you at your core and it makes you suddenly

219
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 2: revalue everything. So if we are growing up in a

220
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,959
Speaker 2: period of time where being a parent is not valued,

221
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 2: it's not seen, it's not celebrated, we have to justify

222
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,000
Speaker 2: ourselves to be able to put motherhood first or fatherhood first.

223
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 2: And yet internally, this is exactly what's happened. You can

224
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 2: feel this split within us. We can feel this. I'm

225
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 2: not who I used to be Suddenly. I don't want

226
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,160
Speaker 2: to go to work like I used to Suddenly. The

227
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 2: things that I thought were important just aren't important anymore.

228
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 2: When I'm at work, I want to be at home

229
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 2: with the baby. When I'm home with baby, I want

230
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,959
Speaker 2: to be at work because I feel like I'm invisible.

231
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 2: We are in this period of matrescence of these deep

232
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:55,080
Speaker 2: questioning of who we are, and it is very, very messy.

233
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,400
Speaker 2: It is the definition of a hot mess.

234
00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it. It's a fundamental

235
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 1: identity issue.

236
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:02,800
Speaker 2: Right absolutely.

237
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 1: But you would just start to say, but we don't

238
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:06,400
Speaker 1: talk about it.

239
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 2: We don't. And you know, in my study and research

240
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,520
Speaker 2: around this, justin there's so much talk around that second

241
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 2: wave of feminism in the seventies, where we really empowered

242
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 2: women to choose whether they wanted to be a mother

243
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,840
Speaker 2: or not and mother in their own way, and that's

244
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,720
Speaker 2: what we've been told. But actually, if you scratch the

245
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 2: surface of any woman, whether she's a mother or not,

246
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 2: and ask her about what her definition of a good

247
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 2: mother is, it looks surprisingly like a nineteen fifties version

248
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 2: of a mother and a wife. We may externally say

249
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,240
Speaker 2: that we've released ourselves from that identity, but actually most

250
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,679
Speaker 2: of us still carry within us this assumption that we

251
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,360
Speaker 2: should love being a mum every minute every day, that

252
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 2: we should fell pregnant naturally and easily, and birth naturally

253
00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,280
Speaker 2: and breastfeed naturally, that we should be happy to sacrifice ourselves,

254
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 2: make everything from scratch, you know, play all of the games,

255
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 2: do all of the things, and if any of us

256
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,839
Speaker 2: aren't feeling that way, even if it's just for part

257
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 2: of the time, we feel like we're a bad mum.

258
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 2: And that's where this idea of the good mother theory

259
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 2: comes from. That internally we may say outside, oh, you know, yes,

260
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,280
Speaker 2: I know, I don't have to do it all and

261
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 2: I can get help. But every single mum I've worked

262
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,120
Speaker 2: with over the years justin feels bad about asking for help,

263
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,080
Speaker 2: feels like they should make the birthday cake from scratch,

264
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 2: feels like they shouldn't be putting their kid in for

265
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,320
Speaker 2: extra hours at daycare. You know, there is this again

266
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 2: in a mean mumma voice, this internal good mother expectation

267
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 2: that makes us feel really bad about the reality of

268
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,720
Speaker 2: the messiness of this time in our life.

269
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,079
Speaker 1: I love what you're saying here. It reminds me so

270
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,200
Speaker 1: much of what I've said in the opening remarks to

271
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,319
Speaker 1: the Summit. I'm talking about the beautiful, beautiful mess effect. Right. So,

272
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 1: we love each other's vulnerability, Oh, sorry, not each other's.

273
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,959
Speaker 1: We love it when other people are vulnerable. We love

274
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 1: it when other people ask for help. We love it

275
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,240
Speaker 1: when other people talk honestly about their body or about

276
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 1: their failures as a parent. We love when other people

277
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: own their stuff. But we feel like we can't do it.

278
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: We feel like it's fine for all of them to

279
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,400
Speaker 1: do it because they've actually got it together, and when

280
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,840
Speaker 1: they're highlighting that they've had a challenge, it's just because

281
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: they had a challenge, Whereas my life is challenged like

282
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,240
Speaker 1: there's something going on here with the whole and that's

283
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 1: why we're doing the Hot Mess Summit. But this good

284
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 1: mother theory, it seems to be almost at the heart

285
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: of our identity as parents and create so much mother guilt, right, so.

286
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 2: Much mother guilt. And you know, I think in a

287
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 2: way we're trying to break this. I love what you've

288
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 2: just said, because we're trying to break this down at

289
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 2: a cultural sort of social media level in some accounts,

290
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,080
Speaker 2: some accounts still very much hold up the perfect white

291
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 2: family with the perfect white kitchen and the perfec white

292
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 2: baby in the perfect white outfit.

293
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 1: But that looks so good because and it looks so.

294
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 2: Good, and pretty much none of us are immune to

295
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 2: looking at that and thinking, oh, but I totally agree

296
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,440
Speaker 2: we forgive each other's messiness, but it actually has to

297
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 2: start with forgiving our own messiness. And I think the

298
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,440
Speaker 2: biggest thing that I do in my work through this

299
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 2: lens of matrescence is to break down that cultural assumption

300
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,040
Speaker 2: of who you're meant to be and what is meant

301
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,920
Speaker 2: to look like and feel like. You know, there's this

302
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 2: another theory that I absolutely fell in love with when

303
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,160
Speaker 2: I was doing all of this research is the maternal mandate.

304
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 2: So the maternal mandate is a description of, again what

305
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 2: women assume about themselves and the world assumes about women

306
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 2: that if you are born a woman and you are

307
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 2: of a certain age, you should be wanting to have children.

308
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 2: Once you have one, you should want more, You should

309
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: feel pregnant easily in that, you should love every minute

310
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 2: all of that. And again, this is somehow what we're carrying.

311
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 2: You know, ask any woman who is in a long

312
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 2: term relationship, someone's going to ask them, are you going

313
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: to have a baby soon? Once they've had one baby,

314
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,280
Speaker 2: they're going to say, and when will you have the

315
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 2: second one? You know, we continue to put these expectations

316
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 2: on each other and ourselves, and the key to being

317
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 2: okay with the mess, because it is a beautiful mess,

318
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 2: is to realize, I think one of the main important

319
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 2: questions we can ask ourselves is whose expectation is this?

320
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 2: Where is this coming from? Because it might come from

321
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,760
Speaker 2: your mum, and it might come from your mother's group.

322
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 2: But I think it's also just as empowering to realize

323
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 2: it comes from the culture that we've been brought up

324
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 2: in that tells us we should be able to do

325
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 2: it all. We should be able to have a great home,

326
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 2: a great body, a great relationship, be a great mum,

327
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 2: be great at work. And it's actually physically not possible

328
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 2: to do that on our own the way that we're

329
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 2: doing it at the moment. Something has to break.

330
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 1: That was Amy Taylor Kebbaz, the founder of the Happy

331
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: Mamma movement and author of Mamma Rising. I spoke to

332
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 1: Amy as part of the Happy Family's hot Mess Summit.

333
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: You can find out more about the hot Mess Summit

334
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,360
Speaker 1: at Happy families dot com dot you just jump into

335
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,360
Speaker 1: the shop. That hot Mess Summit is still available for purchase.

336
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 1: And so many great conversations, so many incredibly intelligent and

337
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 1: helpful people to help make our lives less of a

338
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,679
Speaker 1: hot mess, especially especially the way things are going at

339
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,199
Speaker 1: the moment with inflation and interest rates and all the

340
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 1: stress in life. And we're going to put all of

341
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 1: Amy's links in the show notes. You can find more

342
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 1: about her there. You can also find, like I said,

343
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 1: the hot Mess Summit on the Happy Family's website. The

344
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast, as always, is produced by Justin Roland,

345
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,359
Speaker 1: from which Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and

346
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 1: for more information about making your family happier, we'd love

347
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:06,879
Speaker 1: for you to check out that pop Miss Summit at

348
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,399
Speaker 1: happy families dot com dotu, or visit us at our

349
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 1: Facebook page, Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families