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Speaker 1: When asked to describe yourself, is one of the first

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Speaker 1: things you mention your job? Why does so many of

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Speaker 1: us form such a strong connection between our identity and

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Speaker 1: our work? And more importantly, is that actually healthy? To

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Speaker 1: explore the complex relationship between self, identity and work, I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by my very good friend Sabina Read for another

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Speaker 1: thought provoking conversation. Sabina is a clinical psychologist who shares

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Speaker 1: her expertise weekly on threeaw and through her popular podcast

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Speaker 1: Human Cogs. Sabina is going to be returning occasionally to

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Speaker 1: help me deep dive and answer these kinds of nuanced topics.

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Speaker 1: So if you've got a question or something that you

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Speaker 1: want answered by a couple of psychologists, send us a

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Speaker 1: message using the email in the show notes. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we explore whether your work is taking up too much

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Speaker 1: of your personal identity, a simple way to do if

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Speaker 1: your job.

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Speaker 2: Is consuming your sense of.

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Speaker 1: Self, and how to separate your work from your identity.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,

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Speaker 1: and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm your host, doctor

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Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. We can all agree that work can become

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Speaker 1: a big part of our lives and our identity. But

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Speaker 1: where does that come from and what drives it. To

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Speaker 1: begin exploring this, Sabina wanted to explain the driving factor

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Speaker 1: many of us experience, the need to find a job

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Speaker 1: that perfectly aligns with who we are.

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Speaker 3: I think for so many of us, we have this

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Speaker 3: fanciful idea and a job that it's going to be

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Speaker 3: perfectly aligned to who we are. And in so many ways,

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Speaker 3: people also talk about partners and homes, have this idea

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Speaker 3: that there's one soulmate for us, there's one perfect house

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Speaker 3: to live in, there's one perfect partner, and this job

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Speaker 3: that's going to be everything we need it to be.

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Speaker 3: And we've got this idea now that that job will

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Speaker 3: probably be the perfect job because it's so aligned to

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Speaker 3: who we are at our very core. But of course

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Speaker 3: with that alignment comes shadowside as well. So I'll give

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Speaker 3: an example for me. I'm a psychologist. I feel like

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Speaker 3: I've always been a psychologist before I was a psychologist.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of what led me, led me to the

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Speaker 3: work that I do. That I had these skills and

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Speaker 3: these passions, and then that led me to train and

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Speaker 3: decide to get paid for what I do so much

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Speaker 3: so now that I don't know where Sabina starts and

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Speaker 3: psychologists ends. And I use the term psychologists very broadly,

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Speaker 3: not therapist, but in all the work that I do,

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Speaker 3: so human behavior expert. Where that starts and where I

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Speaker 3: don't know because when I sit down on a plane

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Speaker 3: and I sit next to the person next to me,

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Speaker 3: I'm off, you know, so tell me about that, and

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Speaker 3: two minutes later I want to know about their relationship

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Speaker 3: with their mother. You know, good luck to them if

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Speaker 3: it's an international flight, because then I get the whole

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Speaker 3: family truck.

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Speaker 2: Didn't he befriend an air hostess?

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Speaker 3: I did? I did, I did recently, and he was

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Speaker 3: such a beautiful, beautiful man. We spent about three hours

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Speaker 3: talking and he ended up talking to me about potentially

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Speaker 3: him coming out as a gay man, but not being

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Speaker 3: sure if that would be accepted with his family room.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was a very personal, meaningful conversation. That's

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Speaker 3: a good example exactly. And I could have just sat

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Speaker 3: there and taken the chicken or fish like everyone else does,

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Speaker 3: bear a good little person on the aeroplane. But no, no,

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Speaker 3: he started by saying something around you know, you've got

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Speaker 3: a good energy, or like the way you said hi

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Speaker 3: or something, and then you know I don't need much

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Speaker 3: and I'm I'm on and it's not pretend, it's not forced.

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Speaker 3: It feels really in Asian, very natural. But I think

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Speaker 3: why I was interested in this topic of how much

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Speaker 3: is my identity my job and vice versa is because,

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Speaker 3: of course, as psychologists, we know that we learn things

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Speaker 3: along the way, and have we learned What kind of

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Speaker 3: reward feedback have I got? I mean, of course I

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Speaker 3: probably get some kind of dopamine hits when people share

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Speaker 3: and confide and connect. My greatest value is connection. So

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Speaker 3: I'm connecting with people. It feels good for me, it

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Speaker 3: feels good for them. Then, also because I share things

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Speaker 3: in the media and on socials, people will often say

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Speaker 3: to me, oh, you're doing such fascinating work. I know

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Speaker 3: they say this to you as well, and then I

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Speaker 3: feel like you're saying that because I've put my work

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Speaker 3: out there as a content creator, so many people are

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Speaker 3: doing fascinating work. But because I'm sharing it, I'm now

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Speaker 3: getting that positive feedback as well. The question is how

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Speaker 3: much of the job that I do, the job title

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Speaker 3: that I do is truly me And I believe there

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Speaker 3: are strengths to being very aligned to my vocation or

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Speaker 3: to a vocation, and there's a shadow side as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can relate to what a lot of what

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Speaker 2: you're saying.

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Speaker 3: And minus the air hostess. Yeah, they don't call them

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Speaker 3: hostess as anyone. Flight attendant, flight attendant sorry, yes, flight attendant.

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Speaker 1: Yes, although because I'm far more introveted than you, I

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Speaker 1: will not strike up conversations with strangers ever. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've always felt very very closely aligned that what I

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Speaker 1: do for work is a very big part of who

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Speaker 1: I am as a person. And like you said, in

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Speaker 1: some ways that is wonderful because spends so much of

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Speaker 1: our adult waking hours doing work. But it's also I

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Speaker 1: think puts you in quite a vulnerable position in that

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Speaker 1: that like I don't have any form of like I

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Speaker 1: feel like you know, if I stopped work tomorrow, I'd

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Speaker 1: be very lost and my self esteem might crumble. So

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Speaker 1: it's something I've thought a lot about, and I'm keen

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Speaker 1: to know, like, what are strategies that we can use

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Speaker 1: if perhaps you are someone that can relate to us

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Speaker 1: where your self identity is very very wrapped up in

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Speaker 1: what you do for work, not that we're saying that

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Speaker 1: is a bad thing, but there is a shadow side.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious, like in your own life, looking at

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Speaker 1: the shadow side, have you done anything well?

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Speaker 3: One of the questions I've asked myself if I wasn't,

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Speaker 3: aside from being a psychologist, who am I? This is deeper,

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Speaker 3: This is deeper question, but they have to be because

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Speaker 3: you know, we can't just skip through the gillips on

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Speaker 3: this one. Even if you ask anyone who am I,

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Speaker 3: most people give you a response with regards to a

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Speaker 3: role in their life. I'm a mother, I'm a wife,

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Speaker 3: I'm a psychologist, I'm a daughter, I'm a neighbor, I'm

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Speaker 3: a friend. There are all roles that we play. When

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Speaker 3: we attach our identity to a role or a multitude

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Speaker 3: of roles, then in the context of what you and

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Speaker 3: I are talking about, if that role disappears, I disappear.

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Speaker 3: And this is really relevant, whether it's as someone who

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Speaker 3: aligns neatly with their work, but also in the space

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Speaker 3: of grief. If I'm no longer a daughter, who am I?

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Speaker 3: If that was a big role that I played, or

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Speaker 3: whatever the other relational roles are. And so I think

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Speaker 3: for people across the entire last band. I think this

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Speaker 3: is important conversation to have with children as well. Actually

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Speaker 3: is who are we separate to our roles and our achievements?

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Speaker 3: And when we ask people that, when I've asked people

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Speaker 3: that most people are quite stuck. I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: don't even know what you mean by that question. I've

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Speaker 3: been told before. So then I would be inviting us

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Speaker 3: to think about the qualities that I am that are

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Speaker 3: not beholden or attached to those roles in my life.

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Speaker 3: So I like to think that I am compassionate, curious, fun, thoughtful, loyal,

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Speaker 3: you know whatever. These traits can't be taken from me

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Speaker 3: when a role is taken from me, or if I

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Speaker 3: lose a role, because they're within me, they're not in

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Speaker 3: response to things that I do.

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Speaker 1: I want to pick up on what you said about

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Speaker 1: self identity being linked to achievement because I feel like

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Speaker 1: I can very.

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Speaker 2: Much relate to that. And I feel like a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that are successful.

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Speaker 1: In their career or have you risen to the top

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Speaker 1: of their field, that they probably received a lot of

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Speaker 1: positive reinforcement for achieving things when they are a child.

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Speaker 2: And that's definitely something I can relate.

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Speaker 1: To and you know, it's kind of chasing, I guess

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Speaker 1: the eternal sense of parental approval, which.

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Speaker 2: I do feel like I have, but clearly I mean,

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Speaker 2: you've got that.

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Speaker 1: Now, I've got that, Like I mean, I feel unconditional

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Speaker 1: love for my parents.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I'm sure that there's a part.

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Speaker 1: Of me that's like, well, I need to keep achieving

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Speaker 1: to maintain that love, which is which is irrational.

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Speaker 3: It's probably not irrational because it's how you learn to

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Speaker 3: be in the world, and we're all the same, we

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Speaker 3: just we learn different. So I think it's better not

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Speaker 3: to skate over that and say yeah, I know that,

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Speaker 3: to cut it doesn't make sense anymore. It's how we

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Speaker 3: learn to survive. If you're not an only child, the

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Speaker 3: dynamics you have with siblings plays a big part too.

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Speaker 3: But if you are an only child that plays its

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Speaker 3: own role around not having that comparison peace and there's

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Speaker 3: no one else to you better step up because they

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Speaker 3: don't have a know other child is going to bring

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Speaker 3: home the gold medal.

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Speaker 2: It's you.

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Speaker 3: And when you've got siblings, I think once one role

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Speaker 3: has been taken by one sibling, subsequent children sort of

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Speaker 3: say that gig's been taken, I'll choose another persona to

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Speaker 3: play out in this. So we needed these behaviors to

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Speaker 3: survive in our own families, and then we tend to

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Speaker 3: carry these behaviors with us into adulthood. And that bit

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Speaker 3: doesn't make sense. We don't need them in the same

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Speaker 3: way now. But I think we need to honor with

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Speaker 3: gratitude why these behaviors came to be in the first place.

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Speaker 3: The need to achieve served us well. Then the question

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Speaker 3: is do I need to continue repeating that now?

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Speaker 1: I think something else that maybe confuses me sometimes is

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Speaker 1: I think about how much time goes into my work,

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Speaker 1: a lot of time, and then I think about what

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Speaker 1: are my values? What are the things that matter most

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Speaker 1: to me? And my family is at the top of

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Speaker 1: that list.

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Speaker 2: It's not work.

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Speaker 1: And I'll make choices where I put work in front

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Speaker 1: of my family. Like if I'm I don't know, accepting

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Speaker 1: a keynote speaking gig, which means I have to be

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Speaker 1: away from my partner and daughter for a night for

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Speaker 1: like as a really simple example, and I find that

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Speaker 1: really challenging.

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Speaker 2: And I think.

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Speaker 1: Also, and I mean, you know, this has been said

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Speaker 1: by so many parents and particularly mothers in the past,

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Speaker 1: it's like work gives me a clear sense of progress,

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Speaker 1: but I do not have that as a parent. And

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Speaker 1: I think how I've started to think about that is

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Speaker 1: I think I'm trying to tune more into the special moments,

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Speaker 1: particularly with Frankie, like in my role as her mum.

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Speaker 1: Like I had this moment on the weekend where we

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Speaker 1: went on a mother daughter movie date and we don't

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Speaker 1: go on those all that often, so it was quite special,

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Speaker 1: just the two of us, you know, no friends of

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Speaker 1: hers brought along, and she's at this great age, is

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Speaker 1: nearly a life and yeah, she's just like parroting some

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Speaker 1: of the dialogue to me to try to be funny

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Speaker 1: and just you know, just like mucking around. And I

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Speaker 1: just had this thought, It's like, ah, this isn't gonna

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Speaker 1: last forever. She's going to be a teenager, so I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna think that I'm really embarrassing and that it's

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Speaker 1: not cool to like, you know, muck around with your

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Speaker 1: mum and be funny together. And you know, I was

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Speaker 1: just sort of overcome with this emotion and this sentimentality

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Speaker 1: I'm going to treasure it, and I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: like that is the closest equivalent I can get to

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Speaker 1: the sense of achievement that I get at work when

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Speaker 1: you know, I look at quantitative data, whether that's feedback

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Speaker 1: scores or financials or whatever it might be, to go, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've done a good job. I've like, you know, got

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Speaker 1: this award, I've got this external externale validation. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what I'm trying to think about to have

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Speaker 1: some sort of equivalence in the nonwork domains.

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Speaker 3: Of my life. And I relate to a lot of

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Speaker 3: what you just said. My kids, as you know, twenty

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Speaker 3: two and twenty four, so we've moved through deenage years.

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Speaker 3: They're back now and I'm still embarrassing, but they embrace it.

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Speaker 3: But the bit that you said then that landed kind

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Speaker 3: of hard for me is that sometimes I choose work.

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Speaker 3: I choose work first, and I'm not as interested in

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Speaker 3: the metrics as you are. I think we know that

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Speaker 3: I'm interested in the connection and the growth and the

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Speaker 3: shared experience that I have in my work with corporate

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Speaker 3: clients and media settings and keynotes and workshops and things.

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Speaker 3: And I've got a level of shame saying that out loud,

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Speaker 3: But because you shared it, I'm sharing it too. Look,

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Speaker 3: I could throw around some metrics for what you just

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Speaker 3: described with Frankie. The metric for me would be the

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Speaker 3: way she was looking at you and engaging you and

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Speaker 3: perroshing as you said, whatever was in the mood she

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Speaker 3: was saying, be with me, I'm here with you. That's

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Speaker 3: the metric, and it don't fit in a spreadsheet. And

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Speaker 3: I know if I had a dollar for every time

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Speaker 3: an older woman said to me when my kids were

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Speaker 3: at all, it goes so fast, make the most of it,

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Speaker 3: enjoy it, make you know it's precious time. And all

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Speaker 3: of the times as a parent you're thinking not feeling

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Speaker 3: so freaking precious at the moment, feeling like it's got

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Speaker 3: another nine hours to go into a better those moments

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Speaker 3: that were hard. And yet now I'm one of those

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Speaker 3: middle aged women saying it goes so quickly. So the

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Speaker 3: metrics are different. And we got onto this cheat We've

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Speaker 3: gone everywhere. We got onto this because we're talking about

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Speaker 3: how aligned we are to our work and how our

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Speaker 3: work feels like an extension of who we are. The

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Speaker 3: foundation of that is the reward system. That we get

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Speaker 3: from it, and not just in metrics, but in those

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Speaker 3: things that I said, For me, connection and knowing that

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Speaker 3: you're impacting another's life, it's important, it's meaningful, but it

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Speaker 3: also comes with high reward. You know, it's a dopamine hit.

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Speaker 1: We will be back with Savina soon, and when we return,

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Speaker 1: we'll explore whether we should all be searching for the

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Speaker 1: perfect identity aligned job, how to tell if your work

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Speaker 1: is consuming your sense of self, and a simple step

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Speaker 1: to make sure your job doesn't define you entirely. If

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Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way you

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Speaker 1: work can live, I write a short weekly newsletter that

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Speaker 1: contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You

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Speaker 1: can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's

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Speaker 1: Amantha dot com. I would love to talk about just

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Speaker 1: some different ways that perhaps we can start to pull

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Speaker 1: apart our self identity from our work that I've been

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Speaker 1: thinking about, and I'd love to get your feedback on these.

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Speaker 1: So one thing I've been thinking about is this idea

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Speaker 1: of identity diversification. Like just like if you see a

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Speaker 1: financial advisor, they're like, well, diversification, that's the smartest strategy.

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Speaker 1: I think about the risks of putting all your self

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Speaker 1: identity eggs in one basket, and what happens if something

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Speaker 1: goes wrong in that realm Like that is probably not

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Speaker 1: a good recipe for you know, building resilience.

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Speaker 3: Well, you and I both have so called portfolio careers.

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Speaker 3: Well I describe Do you describe your work like that?

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Speaker 2: I don't, but I relate to that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I do. Maybe because you're under the inventing umbrella

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Speaker 3: you don't. But for me, I think all of these

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Speaker 3: things that I do are quite separate. So if I

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Speaker 3: lost my capacity to speak on stage, let's say, maybe

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Speaker 3: I can still speak into a microphone, or if.

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Speaker 2: I look at strange injuries. This I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I can't think. But you said if

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Speaker 3: I lost the capacity, Okay, I'm not quite sure how

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Speaker 3: to tap into this for the work that you and

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Speaker 3: I do. But if you're, for instance, a surgeon, and

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Speaker 3: somehow you lose your dexterity, of your finger dexterity, you

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Speaker 3: can't actually perform surgery anymore, then you really are having to.

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Speaker 2: More than diversify.

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Speaker 3: You're going to have to think how am I going

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Speaker 3: to use my knowledge and my skills. I've not thought

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Speaker 3: about this before, but let's just say that happens to

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Speaker 3: a surgeon. They then could choose to teach other people.

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Speaker 3: They could bring their years of knowledge of sitting with

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Speaker 3: patients and share insights about that patient journey, so they

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Speaker 3: could be working with the patient or other surgeons without

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Speaker 3: using their fingers. And I think for all of us,

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Speaker 3: there are ways that we could continue to use our

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Speaker 3: skill set and our passion. But then, actually, as I'm

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Speaker 3: saying this, it loops me back to what I already feel,

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Speaker 3: which is this targe alignment with human behavior psychological expertise.

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Speaker 3: I think it will follow me if I'm carrioaking off

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Speaker 3: flying on a plane. I'm still bringing this to the table.

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Speaker 3: And so the other question is, and what's wrong with that?

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Speaker 3: I wanted to play out the pros and the constant

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Speaker 3: strengths and the shadow side in this. If you know

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Speaker 3: so many people, I've worked with people around that. I

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Speaker 3: worked as the ambassador at SEAK for seven years, so

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Speaker 3: I did a lot. I had a lot of conversations

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Speaker 3: in a lot of forums with people around their career trajectories,

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Speaker 3: and so many people talk about wanting to find work

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Speaker 3: that's meaningful, that reflects their values, that's an extension of

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Speaker 3: who they are, that they feel motivated to get up

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Speaker 3: in the morning and do that they're not doing to

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Speaker 3: play someone else. These are all things that I feel

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Speaker 3: in my work. So I'm asking the universe and you

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Speaker 3: and myself, why do I need to dial that down?

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Speaker 2: Okay? I think there are couple of reasons. Why.

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Speaker 1: Firstly, does it lead to a lack of balance? Like,

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Speaker 1: can it lead to workaholism?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: I feel like in twenty twenty four I worked more

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Speaker 1: hours than I would care to admit, and I was

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Speaker 1: very unbalanced, and I was most of the time not

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Speaker 1: happy about that, but I felt like I.

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Speaker 2: Had to do it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So where we get our energy from? If you're

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Speaker 3: doing that kind of work and your energy feels depleted,

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Speaker 3: and we did a prior app on burnout, so we

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Speaker 3: know that story. I don't know if I call that

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Speaker 3: identity alignment with your job. I called that workaholic, and

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Speaker 3: that's what you called it. So I think it also

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Speaker 3: depends on how we feel, how energized we feel doing

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Speaker 3: the work that we do. But if I'm being really honest,

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Speaker 3: it also depends on the people who love us most

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Speaker 3: and how they feel about the work that we do too.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like there's a huge vulnerability that comes

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 2: Like I look at close.

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Speaker 1: Friends of mine who have been through job loss or

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Speaker 1: retrenchment or you know, any number of those things, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think most people in their lives have

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Speaker 1: been through something like that. And you know, the ones

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Speaker 1: that I've seen struggle the most are the ones that

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Speaker 1: most closely have their self identity aligned to their work.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think, you know, we talked about in

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Speaker 1: an earlier episode on Burnout just around you know, one

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Speaker 1: of my fears last year, you know, going to worst

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Speaker 1: case scenarios, like what if Inventium doesn't exist? Who am

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Speaker 1: I without inventingum? And like, yes, I could get to

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Speaker 1: the answers, but it wasn't easy.

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Speaker 3: Why does it have to be I like that, you're.

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Speaker 1: Challenging me, But yeah, I can only think of shoulds,

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Speaker 1: like it should be like this, or it should be

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Speaker 1: like that, or I.

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Speaker 2: Should do That's my biggest swear word.

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Speaker 3: You're like, I got nothing.

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Speaker 2: I got nothing there, I got nothing.

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Speaker 1: It's like I should I should have more diversification in

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Speaker 1: my identity.

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Speaker 3: I think it's worth really exploring where that should come

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Speaker 3: from and if it comes from fear based thinking, which

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Speaker 3: we've talked about before, because I think I'll be caught out.

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Speaker 3: You know, I tend to think with an abundant mindset.

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Speaker 3: I'm not tapping into some area of research in positive psychology.

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Speaker 3: It's just how I think. So my belief is that

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Speaker 3: if one door closes, another one will open. I genuinely

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Speaker 3: believe that, so I don't think as much through that

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Speaker 3: fear lens. So for now, I feel very aligned to

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Speaker 3: psychological work. And if at some point I can do that,

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Speaker 3: I'll explore that then, but I won't live in the

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Speaker 3: wadifs now around that issue.

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Speaker 1: So are you saying then that there is no issue

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Speaker 1: having your work? I'm just.

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Speaker 3: I think the bit that's the greatest vulnerability or potential

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Speaker 3: pain point is losing sense of self, letting your vocation,

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Speaker 3: your job, your title, your role swallow you whole.

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Speaker 2: How would you know if that's happening, Well.

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Speaker 3: I think you would lose connection with other people, meaningful

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Speaker 3: people in your life, which is a cousin of workoholism

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm.

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Speaker 3: And to understand what is the driver here? Is the

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Speaker 3: driver another hit of dopamine, or is the driver to

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Speaker 3: learn and grow to understand what drives us and then

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Speaker 3: to think about where else I can honor those drivers.

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Speaker 1: So this is something else I think about, like in

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Speaker 1: terms of the idea of mastery. And we can obviously

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Speaker 1: get a lot of satisfaction from our work if we're

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Speaker 1: mastering new things. But then back to this idea of diversification,

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Speaker 1: like I've deliberately in the last six or so months

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Speaker 1: tried to pick up a newish hobby or as it

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Speaker 1: was a hobby when I was a child, you a

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Speaker 1: lot of sewing, and I was quite inspired when I

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Speaker 1: went over to Vietnam and all the places that are

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Speaker 1: set up to make these garments that I want to

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Speaker 1: get back into sewing I want to do. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that, and so that's become, I guess,

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Speaker 1: an area of mastery outside of work, which I've really

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Speaker 1: liked for a couple of reasons. Firstly because it's not

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Speaker 1: just all about work, but secondly, as someone that works

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Speaker 1: with ideas and intangibles, it's been really rewarding to just

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Speaker 1: do something with my hands and feel and physically see

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Speaker 1: a sense of progress with this new skill. So I

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Speaker 1: found that very useful, and that's been a really deliberate

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Speaker 1: choice to go. I want to get some mastery outside

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Speaker 1: of my work, because most of the things that I

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Speaker 1: do to learn and grow their work oriented. I'm literally

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Speaker 1: just doing it so that I can create things and

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Speaker 1: so that I'm good enough. So I'm relearning skills because

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Speaker 1: you can't sew and not like know how to I

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Speaker 1: don't know do a seme or you know, put a

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Speaker 1: pattern together, and so it's relearning a lot of those

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Speaker 1: things and trying to go a little bit deeper.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I like the idea of diversification of skill and experiences,

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Speaker 3: that we try new things not to be the master

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Speaker 3: at them, but just to see how they feel.

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Speaker 1: Something I think about is with the like important relationships

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Speaker 1: and friendships in our life is I think about where

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Speaker 1: if they come from, and I think if too many

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Speaker 1: of those are work related, then it kind of sets

437
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: off an alarm bell in my head to go, hmm,

438
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: am I if it's about me or if it's about

439
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: someone else, you know, is it about too myopic a

440
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 1: focus on work? If I look across all my friendships

441
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: and hang on, they're all work friendships? And they all

442
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: do the same job that I do, or they're all

443
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: in the same industry. And so I think that's also

444
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: something that I've deliberately tried to cultivate, where I look

445
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: at my friends and there they're really quite different in

446
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: what they do. Like, yes, there's a cluster of say,

447
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: female business owners, who you know, I dearly love, and

448
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: I've got a little community of them. And yes, you know,

449
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: I probably over index on psychologists that of friends, but

450
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: different like an org psych is really different to a

451
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: clinical psyche, for example. But then otherwise there's quite a

452
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: bit of diversity, and I feel like I've deliberately tried

453
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 1: to do that.

454
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: Is this something you think about in your life.

455
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 3: I don't have many psych friends. It's really interesting you

456
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: talk about diversity and friendship. I'm drawn to people for

457
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 3: a myriad of reasons, and it's not their sav or

458
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 3: the qualifications that they have. I've probably got to know

459
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 3: more people, probably more in sort of the I would

460
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 3: say more org psych space because it's what I'm in now,

461
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 3: but I wouldn't even call them org psychs. They're people

462
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: who have an interest in human behavior and well being,

463
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 3: in stress, in relationships, in our working lives. But I've

464
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: also got a whole bunch of friends that do you

465
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 3: name a job, and they do it. So I feel

466
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 3: conflicted in this conversation because I feel extremely aligned to

467
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 3: my identity as a psychologist, of broadly speaking, but I

468
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 3: also experience a lot of diversity in my work and

469
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: in my friendships and in my day to day even

470
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: in my data. Every day is different, no days the same,

471
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 3: So I feel like I've got a lot of breadth

472
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 3: and variability. Even though I feel I tightly hold on

473
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: or I think others would say I tightly hold on

474
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: to the psychological knowledge, I think there's something interesting as psychologists.

475
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: Psychology is just the study of human behavior, the way

476
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: we think, feel, and behave. That's it, full stop. And

477
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 3: for me, that's such a winner, and it's so fascinating

478
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: because you can hang it on any part of your life,

479
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: on anyone's life. Now, if you're a chef, you talk

480
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: about food, and you could talk about what the meaning

481
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: of food is and what kind of foods you grew

482
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 3: up on and ways to cook different dishes and things,

483
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 3: but it doesn't apply to every part of life. In

484
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: the same way, if you're a police person, there's a

485
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 3: lot of elements, a lot of layers, but there's something

486
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: about psychology more broadly speaking, that touches every part of

487
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: our no disrespect to police or shit, but that touches

488
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: very part of our lives. So it's endlessly fascinating to

489
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: me of the all of the parts of life that

490
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: it touches. So it doesn't feel linear like that. But

491
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 3: I might just be trying to talk myself out of it,

492
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 3: and I'm open to you and.

493
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: Talk me back off, back off.

494
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: The cych shelf. What I know.

495
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: I'm wondering because there are probably people listening that do

496
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: not feel a connection to their work, do not feel

497
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: it's their calling, do not feel it is the be

498
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: all and end all.

499
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 2: Is that a problem? Should they be searching for?

500
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: You know, the affinity that you have with psychology for example.

501
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 3: No, not necessarily, but I think I think, you know,

502
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,239
Speaker 3: we work a third of our lives. We want to

503
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 3: do something that brings us some level of learnings. I

504
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: don't want to sound evangelical about it or too much

505
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: like swallowed the pop psychology cool aid, but I do

506
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: think there's something around enjoyment, meaning, purpose, connection, impact that

507
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: are pretty core universal human drivers and for me, that's

508
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: kind of a mindset we bring to their work that

509
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 3: we do. I was having my nails done recently, which,

510
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: as you know, is something that I have done since

511
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 3: I was fifteen. Just it's sort of just a thing

512
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: that I do that gives me a moment to myself

513
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 3: and makes me feel good. It's so simple, it's ridiculous. Anyway,

514
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: the woman that was panning the aile, she said, these

515
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: look really good. I'm really proud of myself. She was

516
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: really rating her polish work. And I'm just a normal

517
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: nail polish, no fancy, no nothing, just polish in a bottle.

518
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 3: And I was so struck with how much pride. And

519
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: she shared that with me, and I thought, that's it.

520
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: I don't know if she, you know, he feels highly

521
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 3: overly aligned with herself as a manicurist. But I think

522
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 3: that's what we're probably all needing. Some part of is, yeah,

523
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 3: I did good today and I've impacted another person in

524
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: some way. And she nailed that.

525
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: They'll be see. She knows it physically, she nailed it.

526
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: But as I said at the outset, if we talk

527
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: too much, if we have this idea that we must

528
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: find a job that is totally aligned with who we

529
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 3: are and makes our souls sing every day. And you know,

530
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: I sometimes joke and prasos that I give that wouldn't

531
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: it be great if it gets to Friday night and

532
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: we're all like, no, no, it's Friday. It's Friday night,

533
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 3: And I don't want it to be Friday because that

534
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: means the weekend I have to until Monday. Yeah, that's

535
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: probably not in either. It's something around learning and impacting

536
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: others full stop.

537
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: How much of it do you think is the job

538
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: versus the organization that you're in, Like, let's just say

539
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,239
Speaker 1: your job is not calling, but you have, you know,

540
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: a deep connection to the company and the team and

541
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: the people that you work with.

542
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: Is that good enough? Do you think?

543
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: Well? I like the phrase good enough. It's a phrase

544
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: I use often because, you know, instead of saying, is

545
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: that what we're striving for? Is that the gold gold

546
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: star of jobs. I don't think there's a one size

547
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: fits all response to that question. I think it depends

548
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: on what matters most to us. So it goes back

549
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: to this story of values. If your values are around what.

550
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: Did you say, like you feel a deep connection to

551
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: the culture and the people that you work with.

552
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so if your top values are around connection and

553
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 3: so just feeling like you're part of a team, you're

554
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 3: all on the same page, you're moving towards the same goals,

555
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: that might be what floats your boat more than anything.

556
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: If your top values around innovation and you're just kind

557
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 3: of moving with the gang, that could be very frustrating.

558
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think the culture of where we work

559
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: makes it a very big difference. I mean, we know

560
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: one of the raisins people they've worked most often is

561
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: a boss that's not aligned to how they work.

562
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: Like, you must get so many people coming up to

563
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: you after presentations or workshops and going, I'm just not

564
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: happy in my job or I'm not happy in this company.

565
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: What questions do you ask them and what advice do

566
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: you find yourself giving.

567
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: Well, that often does happen, and it usually happens in

568
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: a toilet cubicle, So they kind of follow you into

569
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: the toilet and then that guy loved what you said

570
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: and they're like, can I just ask you a question?

571
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: And it's the closest sort of safe room that they found,

572
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: or maybe it's just because that's where I go after

573
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: I present. I'm not sure, I've never done a study

574
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 3: on that. I would invite people to come back to

575
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: self and it sounds so simple and almost try it.

576
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 3: What's not working for you? What's the pain point? And

577
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 3: what are the barriers that are stopping you exploring and

578
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: actioning change? And I don't expect that I'd get a

579
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: short answer and cubicle to those questions. I don't know

580
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 3: another way except to explore or you know, these things

581
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: that drive us and motivate us, and then these things

582
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: that create barriers. It's kind of the simplest way I

583
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 3: know to think about the choices we make and the

584
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: changes that elude us, and then to revisit you and

585
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: I've talked about before, this sense of agency and accountability

586
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 3: in our own lives. No one else is at this

587
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: steering wheel but us, and it's very easy to point

588
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: the finger out when really we might do better to

589
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 3: point the finger at ourselves with compassion and curiosity, not blame.

590
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: We're in charge, not a dress rehearsal.

591
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: I love that as advice.

592
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 3: Step into the cubicle anytime I got more.

593
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: So good to chat to you about all things self,

594
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: identity and work.

595
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: It's really great to sit here and hear, and you know,

596
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: one of the things I love about our friendship and

597
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: our connection. We have different ideas, we challenge each other,

598
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 3: and I need that in my life. I know that

599
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: in my friendships, and I think it's good pod chat

600
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: as well. So thanks for having me.

601
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: I hope you loved this discussion with Sabina as much

602
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: as I did, and I know it's given me a

603
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: fresh perspective on my own identity. And if you enjoyed

604
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: this chat, I can definitely recommend that you check out

605
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: our earlier discussion on burnout where Sabina asked me all

606
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: about my burnout experience.

607
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: You can find a.

608
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: Link to that in the show notes, and I'll be

609
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: getting Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer

610
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: your questions. So if you have a question or something

611
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: you'd like us to cover, send us a message.

612
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: Using the email address in the show notes.

613
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you get follow

614
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.

615
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: How I Work was recorded

616
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of

617
00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: the Cooler Nation