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Speaker 1: Already, and this is the daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Daily ODS. It is Wednesday, the twenty eighth of February.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy, I'm Zara.

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Speaker 1: Pandora, Cea, Folly, Jetstar and Collingwood Football. What do all

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Speaker 1: of these companies have in common? Zara?

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Speaker 2: And he guesses no, but this feels like one of

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Speaker 2: your Wednesday riddles and I never get there when they're

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Speaker 2: in the newsletter, so I don't think I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get this one.

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Speaker 1: Well, they all have a gender pay gap favoring men

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Speaker 1: of more than forty percent. Yesterday, Australia's biggest employers were

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Speaker 1: forced to publicly reveal their gender pay gap. We'll take

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Speaker 1: you through which companies had the biggest pay gaps and

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Speaker 1: what it all means in today's deep dive. But before

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Speaker 1: we get thoir, Zara, what is making headlines today?

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Speaker 2: New South Wales Police say they are quote very confident

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Speaker 2: they've located the bodies of Jessebaird and Luke Davies, who

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Speaker 2: were allegedly murdered by a New South Wales police officer

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Speaker 2: last week. The bodies were found in Bungonia, a small

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Speaker 2: town about two hundred kilometers southwest of Sydney. If you

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Speaker 2: want more information about that case, you can listen to

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Speaker 2: yesterday's podcast. We'll throw the link in today's show notes.

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Speaker 1: Queensland Supreme Court has found the state's COVID nineteen vaccine

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Speaker 1: mandate for public service and health workers was unlawful. Queensland's

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Speaker 1: frontline workers, including police and paramedics, were required to be

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Speaker 1: fully vaccinated against COVID by January twenty twenty two. A

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Speaker 1: group of frontline staff challenged that requirement overclaims it was discriminatory.

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Speaker 1: This week, a judge ruled the mandate was in breach

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Speaker 1: of the Human Rights Act, meaning the vaccine requirement for

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Speaker 1: frontline workers will be scrapped.

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Speaker 2: A proposal to ban pride flags in Tennessee classrooms is

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Speaker 2: a step closer to becoming law after a draft bill

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Speaker 2: passed the state government's lower house. Under the legislation, it

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Speaker 2: would become illegal to display the rainbow flag in the

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Speaker 2: state's public schools. The proposal is part of a push

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Speaker 2: to ban quote ideological flags which represent a political viewpoint,

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Speaker 2: from being displayed in schools. The bill passed the lower

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Speaker 2: house seventy votes to twenty four and will now be

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Speaker 2: debated in the Senate.

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Speaker 1: And today's good news, Students at a medical school in

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Speaker 1: New York have been told they won't have to pay

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Speaker 1: any tuition fees after ninety three year old doctor Ruth Gotsman,

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Speaker 1: chair of the collegees board, donated one billion US dollars,

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Speaker 1: which is around one point five billion Australian dollars. The

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Speaker 1: Albert Einstein College of Medicine said the money quote will

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Speaker 1: free up and lift our students to pursue projects and

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Speaker 1: ideas that might otherwise be prohibitive. Gotsman came into the

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Speaker 1: money after her husband, who invested with billionaire Warren Buffett,

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Speaker 1: left her a valuable stock portfolio when he died. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the largest donations ever received by a medical

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Speaker 1: school in the US.

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Speaker 2: Billy Yesterday, Australia's biggest employers were actually forced to reveal

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Speaker 2: their gender pay gaps. Can you first just begin by

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Speaker 2: taking us through why did they have to do that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? It was really big news yesterday that nearly five

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Speaker 1: thousand of Australia's private companies were forced to reveal their

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Speaker 1: gender pay gaps. And I'll take you through first how

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Speaker 1: we got there? So last year, the federal government passed

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Speaker 1: a law that was all about improving gender equality in

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Speaker 1: our workplaces. They were responding to review. There were ten recommendations,

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Speaker 1: and they passed this law that acted on six of

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Speaker 1: those recommendations. And the one we're focusing on today is

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Speaker 1: the aspect that forced businesses with at least one hundred

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Speaker 1: workers to publish their gender pay gap. So what was

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Speaker 1: the purpose of this. It was to accelerate action to

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Speaker 1: close the gender pay gap. So the thinking being that

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Speaker 1: companies obviously wouldn't want to be named and shamed, and

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Speaker 1: knowing that this was coming out, they would perhaps action

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Speaker 1: to close the gender pay gap within their companies.

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Speaker 2: I just want to stop you their ability for one second,

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Speaker 2: because I do think that you've said gender pay gap

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Speaker 2: approximately eleven times in the opening thirty seconds of this podcast,

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Speaker 2: and I know that every time we talk about the

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Speaker 2: gender pay gap, we get this influx of messages from

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Speaker 2: people who are confused about what it actually means. Do

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Speaker 2: you mind just clearing that up for us from the

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Speaker 2: get go?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an infamous one in the daily o's office

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Speaker 1: because every single time the comments are a nightmare and honestly,

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Speaker 1: fair enough because there are so many different ways that

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Speaker 1: it is measured. But from the outset, I think there's

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Speaker 1: one thing that we need to clear up. The gender

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Speaker 1: pay gap is not referring to men and women being

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Speaker 1: paid differently for doing the same job. That is illegal,

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Speaker 1: is absolutely illegal in Australia. And so what it is

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Speaker 1: generally referring to is pay across all different levels, across

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Speaker 1: all different industries. But what we're talking about today specifically

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Speaker 1: defines the gender pay gap as the median difference in

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Speaker 1: earnings between men and women. And the crucial word there

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Speaker 1: is median, and that's different to average.

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Speaker 2: Obviously we all know the median mode something that we

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Speaker 2: learned at school.

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Speaker 1: We are taking it.

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Speaker 2: I still don't have the answer.

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Speaker 1: We're taking you back to yeuten mas. So the median

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Speaker 1: number means it is the middle figure. So if you

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Speaker 1: line up all the earnings from the highest to lowest

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Speaker 1: for men and women, you take the middle number of

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Speaker 1: that list for each gender and compare that number in

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Speaker 1: terms of a percentage.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And you're saying it's that number that we are

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Speaker 2: assessing the gender pay gap on.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, okay, And there is a lot of confusion, and

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Speaker 1: that's because that's not always how it's done. But in

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Speaker 1: this SPECI case, it has been done like this to

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Speaker 1: not skew the data with extreme values on either end.

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Speaker 1: So a really high salary or even a really low salary.

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Speaker 2: So that would happen if you were to do an average, Yes,

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Speaker 2: that would skew it one way or another, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And just one more thing before we actually get

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Speaker 1: to the findings. This figure includes full time salaries, and

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Speaker 1: it also includes part time and casual salaries which have

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Speaker 1: been converted into annualized full time equivalent earnings. And one

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Speaker 1: more thing. On top of salary, it also includes things

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Speaker 1: like bonuses and extra payments such as commissions for sales.

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Speaker 1: It also includes superannuation, so it's a total remuneration, which

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Speaker 1: is always a hard way to say it is.

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Speaker 2: But I do think that it's important that it included

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Speaker 2: that because we so often hear about the fact that

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Speaker 2: women end up retiring with a lot less super banked away.

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Speaker 2: So I think that that's an important element to include.

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Speaker 2: So I think I understand what it is this gender

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Speaker 2: pay gap was assessed on. Can you take me through

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Speaker 2: what the findings were?

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Speaker 1: Well, it found that the issue of a gender pay

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Speaker 1: gap absolutely exists in Australia. We knew that exactly, We

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Speaker 1: absolutely knew that. And one thing to note is how

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Speaker 1: they've done it is they've done it with negative percentages

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Speaker 1: and positive percentages. If it's a negative percentage, that means

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Speaker 1: that it favors women, and if it's a positive percentage,

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Speaker 1: that means that it favors men. And what they've said

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Speaker 1: is that between negative five percent and positive five percent

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Speaker 1: is a normal range for companies which they should aim to.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So understanding that that's kind of where you're aiming

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Speaker 2: to be, what did it say?

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Speaker 1: So it found that the pay gap at more than

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Speaker 1: three in five companies was over five percent, so in

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Speaker 1: favor of men. And just a reminder, that's three and

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Speaker 1: five private companies with over one hundred employees that have

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Speaker 1: a pay gap of more than five percent. Following following,

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Speaker 1: and it also found that more than half of employers

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Speaker 1: had a pay gap that was higher than nine percent.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so just put that in a sentence, So nine percent,

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Speaker 2: what are we saying about that figure?

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Speaker 1: So, when these companies measured the median difference between the

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Speaker 1: pay of their male employees and their female employees, more

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Speaker 1: than half of them found that difference was more than

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Speaker 1: nine percent.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's a pretty significant percentage there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely is. And one more thing it found was

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Speaker 1: that companies with female leadership were more likely to have

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Speaker 1: a lower gender pay gap, closer to that negative five

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Speaker 1: to positive five percent range. And that might seem unsurprising,

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Speaker 1: but I still think it's definitely of note.

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Speaker 2: It is definitely of note. I want to understand a

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Speaker 2: bit more about the profile of these companies who were listed.

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Speaker 2: Obviously it was an extremely comprehensive list, but in a

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Speaker 2: lot of the coverage I've seen certain companies singled out.

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Speaker 2: Can you just run me through a couple a handful

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Speaker 2: of them?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you said, it's a list of nearly five

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Speaker 1: thousand companies, so I'm obviously not going to go through

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Speaker 1: every single one.

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Speaker 2: I did control f the Daily Os, knowing full well

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Speaker 2: we only employ under twenty people, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: why I did it, but I also would have been

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Speaker 2: not there surprised.

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Speaker 1: You also would have been the one to submit that

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Speaker 1: I would be concerning if it was there. Okay, but

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Speaker 1: I will name a few companies, and the ones being

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Speaker 1: named are kind of just the ones that media Publications

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Speaker 1: thinks their audiences will recognize they're some of the biggest

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Speaker 1: companies in Australia. The companies are name now. They employ

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Speaker 1: more than two hundred and fifty workers, and they fell

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Speaker 1: within the top five percent of the highest gender pay gaps.

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Speaker 1: The first one I'll mention is Pandora. You might recognize

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Speaker 1: that name. It's a jewelry brand bracelet. Yeah, they had

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Speaker 1: a pay gap of fifty two point three percent. They

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Speaker 1: were actually the twenty seventh worst overall.

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Speaker 2: That is so interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And another surprising one was Valley Girl. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you recognize that name. They do fast fashion

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Speaker 1: towards young girls in particular. They had a gap of

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Speaker 1: fifty one point nine percent, making them the twenty ninth

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Speaker 1: worst overall.

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Speaker 2: I think both of those are interesting because they're meant

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Speaker 2: to be targeting women, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Another one was c Folly, the swimwear brand.

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Speaker 1: They also target females, and they had a pay gap

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Speaker 1: of forty four point five percent. Again I found that interesting.

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Speaker 1: The airline industry recorded some high pay gaps. Jetsar had

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Speaker 1: a gap of forty three point seven percent, Virgin had

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Speaker 1: one of forty one point seven percent and Quantis was

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Speaker 1: thirty seven percent, so pretty high, definitely higher than the

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Speaker 1: national average. Also the sports industry, at Collingwood Football Club,

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Speaker 1: for example, they had a pay gap of forty four percent,

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Speaker 1: So some pretty big companies that have a really high

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Speaker 1: gender pay gap.

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Speaker 2: Something that I thought was interesting that you said at

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Speaker 2: the beginning was the idea behind this was that with

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Speaker 2: increased scrutiny would hopefully come some movement on the gender

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Speaker 2: pay gap. So I think that it is important to say,

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Speaker 2: this is the first year this has been published. We

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Speaker 2: can hope that there will be improvement year on year

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Speaker 2: and that, you know, hopefully something productive will come out

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Speaker 2: of this. We're not talking about it just for the

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Speaker 2: sake of shaming. I think we're all hoping that these

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Speaker 2: gender pay gaps are rectified. But yeah, I do think

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Speaker 2: that it's interesting to look at that list and understand

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Speaker 2: a bit more about it. Were there any gender pay

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Speaker 2: gaps that went the other way, those that were favoring women.

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Speaker 2: Obviously it's usually the other way, but curious to know

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Speaker 2: if it went that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were obviously less of those, but there were

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Speaker 1: definitely some of Note one I thought was interesting was

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Speaker 1: Baker Mackenzie, the big law firm. They had a negative

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Speaker 1: pay gap, so a pay gap favoring women of nine

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Speaker 1: point five percent, which is pretty sid.

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Speaker 2: So that's outside of that healthy range that they were referring.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: There was also Astrozeneca. You may remember them from being

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Speaker 1: one of the big pharmaceutical companies who supplied COVID vaccines

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Speaker 1: in Australia.

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Speaker 2: How could we forget?

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Speaker 1: They had a negative pay gap of two point nine percent,

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Speaker 1: so that is within the healthy range. Another one was

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Speaker 1: black More's, the vitamin's company. They had a negative pay

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Speaker 1: gap of one point nine percent. There's just some of

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Speaker 1: the ones that I recognized when I went through that list,

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Speaker 1: but obviously that was a smaller list than the ones

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Speaker 1: that had a gender pay gap favoring men.

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Speaker 2: When I was reading our post about this on the feed,

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Speaker 2: I was very interested, and I will say a little

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Speaker 2: surprised to read that this number that the gender pay

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Speaker 2: gap was assessed on didn't include the salaries of CEOs.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this surprised me too, and I actually called the

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Speaker 1: WGEA who published this data, to make absolute certain that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't misinterpreting this data because like, it seemed slightly

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Speaker 1: odd to me that they wouldn't include the highest paid

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Speaker 1: employees of the company. But it's absolutely right. They confirmed

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Speaker 1: to me this data does not include the earnings of

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Speaker 1: CEOs or heads of business or casual managers. Okay, why, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's just because of how the legislation was planned out,

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Speaker 1: and the changes were always going to be made in increments,

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Speaker 1: and so from next year that information will be included.

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Speaker 2: Can imagine that we'll have a significant effect though, on

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Speaker 2: those numbers.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what I immediately thought, right, surely that would

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Speaker 1: have a big impact on how big these gender pay

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Speaker 1: gaps are. For two reasons. We know that CEOs typically

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Speaker 1: will be earning a higher salary than the rest of

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Speaker 1: the employees. And also we know according to wgea nearly

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Speaker 1: eighty percent of CEOs in Australia are men. That is

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Speaker 1: a huge percent, eighty percent. I was shocked by that number,

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Speaker 1: but then I remember that this is based on median earnings, which,

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Speaker 1: like I said before, explicitly is designed to lessen the

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Speaker 1: impact of more extreme earnings such as the one of

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Speaker 1: the CEO.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, so they're not expecting it to radically shift these

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Speaker 2: dynamics that much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think so. If this was a measure

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Speaker 1: on averages rather than medians, it would have a much

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Speaker 1: larger impact. But still, absolutely it's something worth noting and

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Speaker 1: keeping in mind when we are interpreting this data. I

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Speaker 1: hope that no one has turned off because the mass

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Speaker 1: is getting too much.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm nearly there. Okay, we've made it to

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Speaker 2: the end. What has been the feedback to this. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: it's the first time that we've seen this data because

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Speaker 2: the government's legislation only passed last year. What's the general

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Speaker 2: response been.

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Speaker 1: Generally, the sentiment from everyone is that things need to

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Speaker 1: improve and women broadly across the workforce are not being

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Speaker 1: valued equally to men and they're not getting promoted as

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Speaker 1: fast and that needs to change. Here's what the CEO

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Speaker 1: of WGEA, Mary Wooldridge said yesterday.

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Speaker 3: When you look at every industry across the board, the

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Speaker 3: gender pay gap is in favor of men. It is

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Speaker 3: a complex issue, and in that in terms of the profile,

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Speaker 3: even in the highest companies and in industries like construction,

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Speaker 3: professional services, the financial services industries, some gender pay gaps

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Speaker 3: are actually close to zero, while others may be at thirty,

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Speaker 3: forty and fifty percent, so it's doable. Change is possible.

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Speaker 3: It just takes that motivation and it takes that action.

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Speaker 1: And the Shadow Minister for Women Susan Lee, so she's

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Speaker 1: from the Coalition, she said this yesterday in a press conference.

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Speaker 4: We're not doing enough to enable women to get ahead,

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Speaker 4: to get promotions. We're not doing enough to support women

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Speaker 4: and this data forming an important baseline, will be something

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Speaker 4: that is measured year on year, and I'm going to

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Speaker 4: call out not by name, not by identity, but start

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Speaker 4: to call out the organizations in the main that are

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Speaker 4: not doing what they can to keep the gender pay

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Speaker 4: gap reducing.

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Speaker 1: There was some negativity though around the report and some

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Speaker 1: people said it's just not helpful data. Senator Matt Canavan

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Speaker 1: yesterday from the National Party, which is part of the coalition.

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Speaker 1: He did not mince his words when he tweeted quote,

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Speaker 1: the gender pay Gap report is useless data because it

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Speaker 1: does not even correct for basic differences like ours worked.

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Speaker 1: He went on, The gender pay Report is now the

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tait recruitment drive.

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Speaker 2: Andrew Tate being he is the.

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Speaker 1: Online influencer who has been banned from social media for

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Speaker 1: posting misogynistic views, and he's also currently facing several charges

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Speaker 1: in Romania, including for human trafficking and rape. So just

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Speaker 1: to be clear on what Matt Kinavan said, he said

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Speaker 1: that this report quote is now the annual Andrew Tait

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Speaker 1: recruitment drive. It just breeds resentment and division. Andrew Tate

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Speaker 1: is so popular because governments and corporates push a simplistic,

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Speaker 1: divisive and clearly incorrect gender narrative. So there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of conversation around that yesterday in question time.

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Speaker 2: Billy. I think it's a really, really important and interesting topic,

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Speaker 2: and I think that it is very easily misinterpreted. I

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Speaker 2: know that you know, when we get these sorts of reports,

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Speaker 2: or when we get figures kind of every other day,

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Speaker 2: it can be really difficult to understand the weight of them.

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Speaker 2: But I think this is a real moment in time

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Speaker 2: and hopefully the start of quite significant change when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the gender pay gap here in Australia. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for listening to today's episode of The Daily OS. If

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Speaker 2: you do have a spare couple of minutes, we would

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Speaker 2: in today's show notes. We will be back again tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: but until then, have a great day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: bunge Lung Chalcotin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz

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