1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: Hello there, I'm Nadia Cameron, publisher and editor of Marketing 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: at MI three. Welcome to the MI three Audio Edition. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: I've spent twenty five years covering marketing, B to B, 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: technology and business professionals and trends for publications locally and 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: in the UK. I've spent the last twelve years championing 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: cmos as the growth drivers in business. In this series, 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: we're going deep into the strategic customer and growth challenges 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: facing brands, marketing leaders and their teams and how they 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: harness the art and science to achieve those results. Have 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: you got a dull problem? Are you investing in a 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: media plan that you think is efficient but in fact 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: sacrificing effectiveness on route? Are you buying reach and ROI 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: on the premise that your ads will be seen when 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: actually they're getting the most fleeting of attention. If anything, 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: very dull media makes advertising up to twelve times less efficient, 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: meaning every dollar has to work dramatically harder at generate 17 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: the same outcome. Yet, as we'll hear, only thirty eight 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: percent of viewers are reaching that crucial two point five 19 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: second memory threshold, the point where advertising is encoding in 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: memory from the media choices that brands are making. Right now, 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: half the audience disappears within the first three seconds. That 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: early drop is more than ten times worse in very 23 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: dull environments. That means brand impactfuls thirty five percent weakening 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: brand growth, something marketers cannot afford to do, and it's 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: even worse if you're a challenger brand. It's a situation 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: Peter Field calls a terrifying complacency and one that's destroying 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: the foundations of brand prosperity. Over investment in dull platforms 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: remains an immense cost and reality unless we start to 29 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: challenge the media planning and get bolder. So today we're 30 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: going to unpack the data on what it's saying about 31 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: modern advertising approaches with the help of three clever people 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: from our community joining me today. Firstly is doctor Karen 33 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Nelson Field, one of the world's leading minds on attention, 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: a professor of media science and the founder of Amplified. 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: Doctor Field has more than twenty years of groundbreaking research 36 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: under her belt and is the author of two books 37 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: on the subject, The Attention Economy and How Media Works 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: and the Attention Economy a Category Blueprint. Our second guest 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: is Peter Pacey, Chief Strategy and Behavior Change Officer for 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: Hearts and Science Australia, part of the Omnicom Media Group. 41 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: She boasts a wealth of experience across strategy in leading 42 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: agencies and whole co groups, as well as client side 43 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: experience in communications and marketing. And we also have Guy Burbage, 44 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: Managing Director of val Morgan. Guy has been the chief 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: of val Morgan for the last seven years and has 46 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: previously worked across a range of media and advertising agencies, 47 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: holding senior commercial and sales roles. Thank you for joining 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: me today. So Karen, let's start with you on why 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: we're here. Your cost of dull study, Where did it 50 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: come from, what is it building and what are the 51 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: objectives that you have behind it? 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for having me. 53 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: Look, if anyone knows any of the work I've ever done, 54 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 3: I'm super passionate about change in our industry when essentially 55 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: the gap between served advertising versus scene is high. So 56 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: the whole cost of Dull piece comes actually from the 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: founder of Eat Big Fish, which is Adam Morgan, and 58 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 3: he wanted in twenty twenty four to understand the influence 59 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: of Dull Creative on your ability. What does it cost 60 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 3: you if you have a week versus a strong ad emotionally, 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 3: so eat big Fish and System One went about codifying 62 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: good and bad ads and then put a price to it. 63 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: So Peter Field's been involved as well over the years. 64 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 3: And then the following year they asked me to do 65 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: the same thing for media, knowing that media is typically 66 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: a greater cost to advertisers because of its influence over 67 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: the creative, and that's what I did. So in twenty 68 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: twenty five I replicated it, but it was a global 69 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: piece and this year we're bringing it to Australia some 70 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: local reality tell us and define what dullin media is, 71 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: because I understand it's quite a bit of difference between 72 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: the dull and creative study in terms of what they 73 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: were looking for versus what you were for, and you 74 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 3: found some great alignment in terms of this continuation of work. 75 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 2: It's actually not as different as you think. 76 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 3: The metric used to codify level of dull is but 77 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 3: in the same way it's split into that we've used 78 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 3: quartos in this time it's. 79 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: Turtile, so it's three groups. 80 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: So technically for the emotions piece that they did, they 81 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 3: looked at the highest to lowest level of emotion coded 82 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 3: across different campaigns, and all I switched that out for 83 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: is best to worst attention volume, So how many people 84 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: are watching over time? 85 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: I did that on purpose. I wanted it to be. 86 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: As smooth and similar and generalizable as possible, and so 87 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: that people could kind of look at the two that's 88 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 3: the difference but similar. And Yeah, we just used attention volume, 89 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: which essentially allows us to build these profiles around risk. 90 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: To be honest, and just just for the benefit of 91 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 3: people like me who didn't know what attention volume was 92 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 3: until I read. 93 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: Your read this piece last week. Just talk us through 94 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: a little bit about what you're trying to encapsulate there. 95 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you think of an AD that's running 96 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 3: for ten seconds of time on a platform with the 97 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 3: time in view Caunterdar, you've put a ten second add 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 3: on and essentially what's happening is you're getting lots of 99 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: people in second one, a few people like, then they 100 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: start to drop off and they might all be gone 101 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 3: by second five. The gap between the ten second AD 102 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 3: and one hundred percent viewing is this volume play this 103 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: scene versus served things. So the best way to think 104 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: about it is how many people over time, So it's 105 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 3: not just a time metric. It's a combination of reach 106 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 3: times by time and it's added one hundred percent. So 107 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 3: if you have a ten second AD, that volume plays 108 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: to that possibility within that ten second AD. 109 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit more as well around what 110 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: kind of data sets you used for this purpose as well, 111 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: so because I think it's also interesting to understand, you know, 112 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: what's sort of fed into some of these big fat 113 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: numbers we're about to talk about. 114 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 3: So look, you know, we our specialty is biometric's been 115 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 3: doing it for more than ten years at scale. So 116 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: our specialty area is being able to intercept ad load 117 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 3: on Facebook feeds, TikTok feeds. We have worked with our 118 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: Morgan team for a few series actually where we put 119 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: cameras in cinemas and we're with permission film people while 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 3: they're watching the pre show. 121 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: So it's essentially the first part of this. 122 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: Is biometric classic biometric data with permissions, So we're filming 123 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: you enjoying or scrolling or whatever you're doing in the 124 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: media experience without pushing them, without it being prescribed. 125 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: It's very natural. So that was half of the sample. 126 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: The second half of the sample which is one hundred 127 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: and eighty thousand views. We actually modeled because we've just 128 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: built the world's first generative AI that allows us to 129 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: ingest an AD. So we did that, which then generates 130 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: a set of data which is exactly the same as 131 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 3: we would get if we went out biometrically. So so 132 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: ultimately the data that we use in this study is 133 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: attention data. 134 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: Whether it's modeled. 135 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 3: Or biometric, it's irrelevant attention data, which is seconds decay. 136 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: We also have outcomes across all the different. 137 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 3: Ads we have, CPMs, we have you know, scroll speed, 138 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. 139 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot in it. There's a lot in it. 140 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: So tell us then, what did you What were some 141 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: of the big finders. I've sort of indicated them at 142 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: the beginning of this podcast here, but talk us through 143 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: or unpack what those findings actually were. 144 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: So there's a series of them. 145 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: So we'll start with the descriptives, which any good researcher 146 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: will do. 147 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: They'll just start looking. 148 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: At the data and playing around with what happens if 149 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: and in the case of the if, it's what happens. 150 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: If your AD is in a non dull format, What. 151 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 3: Happens if your ad is in a dull format relative 152 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: to things like how many people see your brand, how 153 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: many seconds are paid, whether someone's chosen an outcome like 154 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 3: whether they've spontaneously chosen you off a shelf, whether they've 155 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: remembered you. So the big news for me is that 156 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 3: we saw pretty early systematic collapse of effectiveness. So we 157 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: also had CPMs, so we were able to translate outcomes 158 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: relative to CPMs as an effectiveness measure, which is exactly 159 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: what we did in the last one and exactly what 160 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: the original one did as well, And that helps us 161 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: codify it from a cost perspective too, when you start 162 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 3: to include how much did you spend to get the 163 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 3: outcomes you did when you advertise in very dull versus 164 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: non do But the early numbers you said a couple 165 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: of them, so ten x attention drop. I mean, that's obvious, 166 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 3: that's how we codified it. But the bigger ones, which 167 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: I think the audience would want to know, things like 168 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: half the audience is lost within the first three seconds, 169 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 3: and that's because people exit as quickly as they can 170 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 3: in dull media versus nondle media where they're sitting there 171 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 3: entertained and want to stay, and then things like and 172 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: you said this one, only thirty eight percent of viewers 173 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: reached the memory threshold. That's actually good. We didn't include 174 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 3: programmatic in this particular study, whereas the other one I did, 175 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 3: and so had we include a programmatic there would have 176 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 3: been a fourth level which would have averaged under a 177 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 3: second on average, So very few people would have hit 178 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: that memory threshold. So ultimately why we're here is because 179 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 3: the outcomes decline, no surprise, thirty five percent decline in 180 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: in short term, declines in long term memory, and then 181 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 3: ultimately a significant drop in efficiency. So twelve weeks times 182 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 3: worse from an efficiency perspective. I know in the Dull 183 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 3: Creative study from a couple of years ago, there were 184 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: a couple of pretty significant dollars on that. The cost 185 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 3: of dollin US brands was one hundred and eighty nine 186 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 3: billion a year. In the UK it was thirteen point 187 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 3: two nine billion. They're very large amounts of money to 188 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: be suggesting of being wasted. How about from your data, 189 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 3: where do we end up? Look, these are sticker shock 190 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 3: moments for people because and I think that's what the 191 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: beauty of cost of doll is we're not codifying the 192 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 3: value at the other room, we're codifying the loss. 193 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: And not a lot of people think about it in 194 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: that sense. 195 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 3: So I'm going to tell you, I mean, you kind 196 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: of alluded to it, but it makes people really gasp, 197 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: quite frankly, because they don't really realize it at an 198 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 3: aggregate level. So to be clear, in the Australian market, 199 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 3: we only spend thirty. 200 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: So you've got to pick a market. 201 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 3: Obviously, Australia, we spent about thirty one billion dollars annually 202 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 3: on as an overall ad spend, and then what I 203 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 3: did then is built a sub segment of that, which 204 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: is around five billion dollars on the video plus cinema 205 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: sub segments. 206 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: So we started with about five billion. 207 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 3: Dollars and then I looked at the share of spend 208 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 3: of that five billion across the formats we had using 209 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 3: the efficiency multiplier, I then calculated a six. 210 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: Billion dollar cost. So what that. 211 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: Technically means is you need the same amount of money 212 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: again Australia to get the same outcomes in non doll 213 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: if you continue to advertise in extremely or very dull. 214 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: And does it change much in terms of the creative 215 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: that's inputed in at that point as well, because obviously, 216 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, we talk about media being one part of 217 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: the puzzle and creative the other. But did you you 218 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: look at you know, dull versus non dull creative in 219 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: that process as well, and how much impact that was 220 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: happening there. 221 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: Look, I've done it before. 222 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 3: We didn't do it in this, but I've done it 223 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: before a billion times, and a billion might be a 224 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: bit of an overstatement, but a lot. And we see 225 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 3: roughly around sixty five to seventy percent of the influence 226 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: of this is media choice, whereas thirty five to forty 227 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: percent is creative. So the beautiful thing about this study is, 228 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 3: you know, Peter gave us a bunch of different ads 229 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 3: and they're all very highly varied. So there are some 230 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 3: that are better than others, and then there are also 231 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 3: some that are better branded than others. 232 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: So it was a beautiful mix. 233 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 3: Of brand size, creative value or creative quality from an 234 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 3: emotions perspective, but also creative quality from a branded scale. 235 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: So it's a really rounded set of ads that we used. 236 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: And formats just to that point as well. So there 237 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: were a number four Yeah, yeah, absolutely, so Peter amight 238 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: and to you at this point, because what I'd love 239 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: to know is when you hear that, what's it saying 240 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: to you? What's that showing to you? 241 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 4: So I love this cost of dull work that Karen 242 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 4: and her team have done because quite simply, it sort 243 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: of finally puts a price on something that many of 244 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 4: us as planners and strategists and marketers have felt quite intuitively, 245 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 4: and that is there's a gap between what is served 246 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 4: and what is actually seen and cognitively received. I guess 247 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 4: from our perspective at Omnicom, everything that we're talking about 248 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 4: is not about vilifying different channels, just to be really clear, 249 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 4: It's actually about understanding the role very specifically of channels 250 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 4: in order delivering to specific objectives as well, and how 251 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 4: there is an ecosystem that we have to really think 252 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 4: about when we're planning. It's also not about necessarily chasing 253 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 4: a new metric. We have a number of different metrics 254 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 4: that we use when we're planning and when we're negotiating, 255 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 4: and maybe some of them aren't as fit for purpose 256 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 4: as they used to be because we have more data now. 257 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 4: But it's really about giving us the tools in our 258 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 4: armor so that we can go and more effectively planned 259 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 4: to cognition and think about human processing rather than just 260 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 4: exposure or opportunity to see. 261 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: So at the moment we do have the attention metrics 262 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: coming into the planning. Can you talk us just a 263 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: little bit through what's happening with those at the moment 264 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: and I guess what purpose they're serving at this point 265 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: in time when you're planning. Because you guys are known 266 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: for being quite advanced on how you're leveraging those. 267 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 4: We take it very seriously. We have obviously jumped on 268 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 4: attention from the word go. We were launched partners with 269 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 4: Karen and her team. We have ingested attention data into 270 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 4: all of our planning systems, and so whenever we're thinking 271 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 4: about how do we actually reach people and what is 272 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 4: the job to be done, we're able to be quite 273 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 4: nuanced in terms of thinking about at each stage of 274 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 4: the journey what is required from an attention point of view. 275 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 4: And what I mean by that is what connection are 276 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 4: we trying to have? What connection are we trying to make? 277 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 4: I guess one of the things that was clear to 278 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 4: us when we saw all if this research in this 279 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 4: data is we're thinking here about windows of time, and 280 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 4: what the data shows us is that if you don't 281 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 4: get the right window of time to deliver to the 282 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 4: job that you need to do, it gets really expensive 283 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 4: because you're wasting more money. So what we're trying to 284 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 4: do very clearly is work with our clients, understand where 285 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 4: they are, how the category is consumed by audiences, by consumers, 286 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 4: how they shop, how they make decisions, all of those things, 287 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 4: and then understand what's the role of memory in that. 288 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 4: Where do we need to build a memory, Where do 289 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 4: we need to just trigger and retrieve a memory. What 290 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 4: are we trying to spark here? So it's about really 291 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: understanding people as a whole, and it's now infused in 292 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 4: all of our tools, which is fantastic. 293 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: So guy handing to you then, I mean, obviously we've 294 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: got two ladies here who don't want to vilify and 295 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: shame necessarily specific media channels. Although I will add for 296 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: those who look at the global report, there's some numbers 297 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: in there that you can find that do indicate the 298 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: over indexing of spend that's going on right now versus 299 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: the level of dull that we are seeing across the 300 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: various channel mix. But what are you reading here, what's 301 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: this saying what's going on? 302 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 5: Well, I don't think it's any secret that. I think 303 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 5: it's something like seventy five cents or eighty cents, and 304 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 5: the dollar is going into the big platforms, and I 305 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 5: think that's really what the problem is. Certainly from our perspective, 306 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 5: what we see is proxies like reach and CPM overtaking 307 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 5: some of the other more important and more valuable proxies 308 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 5: like outcomes, windows of time. What we're all trying to 309 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 5: actually deliver as marketers, and an awful lot of channels, 310 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 5: Ares included, are being debased to those two very simple things, 311 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 5: which show you nothing of the true value of what 312 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 5: a channel can deliver. So, you know, we've been, as 313 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 5: Karen mentioned and as Peter said, we've been friends on 314 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 5: the attention journey for a long time. It's what we 315 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 5: do as a business, it's what we offer as a 316 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 5: channel to consumers. And what we're trying to do with 317 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 5: this piece of research is take it to the next level. 318 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 5: It was never just about attention, as Karen has said 319 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 5: multiple times, it is about understanding the outcome that you're 320 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 5: trying to deliver, not just how many people you've reached 321 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 5: or just how many or how much that has cost 322 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 5: you visa vise and procurement benchmarks. It is about understanding 323 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 5: the impact that you were making in time and time 324 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 5: again we still see this unfortunately, you know, people are 325 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 5: confusing impressions with impact and cost with value. And I 326 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 5: think it's time We've got all of this evidence. It 327 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 5: sits right in front of us, not just through this work, 328 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 5: but through Peter Field, et cetera. And it's trying to 329 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 5: you know, we should be using this evidence more appropriately 330 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 5: to come up with better media choices. 331 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: So how how do we actually do that? I mean, Peter, 332 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: what's going on there? Because obviously guys touched on the 333 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: fact that there's a misconception on impression versus value. We've 334 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: got measurements sitting in there that we're all saying demonstrates 335 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: efficiency is the measurement that we can use for efficiency. 336 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: So why aren't we getting further on that journey? I mean, 337 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: I have to say, the cmos I talk to all 338 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: the time are telling me we've got to get to outcomes, 339 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: But what in reality they're just playing the reach game. 340 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 4: I think there's a couple of things here. I think 341 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 4: that I don't know the last five to ten years 342 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 4: our whole industry. And when I say that, I'm marketing. 343 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 4: But like, let's just think about anything commercial in around 344 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 4: the world. It's short term ism. We are looking for 345 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 4: what's going to deliver in Q one, right or Q two? 346 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 4: It's the next quarter. Everyone is judged on that, so 347 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 4: our cmos, our CEOs, all of our client partners, we 348 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 4: are as well everything. It's the way that contracts are 349 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: set up, is are you reaching certain CPMs. It's a 350 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 4: systemic issue. So I can sit here as a pure 351 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 4: strategist and say we should be doing it a different way, 352 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: But it's a system issue. It's not a personal intellectual issue. 353 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 4: That's my opinion. 354 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: Yep. 355 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: Karen, you've talked a lot before, and I know it 356 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: came up in your last work around this challenge of 357 00:19:55,359 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: cost per l CPM or cost per meaningless thousand. How 358 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: do you relate to that. I mean, we're sort of 359 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: touching here on the fact that that is one of 360 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: the things that's holding us back. But it'd be good 361 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 1: to get your opinion on from all the data and 362 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: all the evidence, how do you see that playing out? 363 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: Interesting? 364 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: You ask me that I this is my whole life 365 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 3: at the minute thinking about that. So what I think 366 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 3: has happened is we've come in at a time when 367 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 3: you know, disrupting a system that is reach frequency platform 368 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 3: outcomes is difficult. I think the industry gets it, and 369 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 3: you'll get some agency peeps and you know, some brands 370 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 3: that will go right, We'll have to include that into 371 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: our systems, but it's it's hard to disrupt the flight, 372 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: which is exactly what you both just. 373 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: Said, right. 374 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 3: But however, we are literally at a turning point, I 375 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 3: think in the first time since the MRC came in 376 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 3: with a viewability metrics, and we have a chance to 377 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 3: actually impact the next phase. So the next phase will 378 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: be well, hopefully see this sit as an input variable 379 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 3: to AI systems versus an add on versus being thought about, 380 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 3: versus having to justify a tool extra over and above. 381 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: It'll be inherent. So that's where I'm seeing the globe 382 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: taking it. Because every single panel, every single keynot I'm doing, 383 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 3: I'm having the AI conversation. Even just organizations that like 384 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 3: brands themselves like systems, they're building themselves with cord or whatever. 385 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 3: And I think the flow on effect is that if 386 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 3: they build if any of these systems are built with 387 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 3: good training data, they shouldn't. 388 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: No one should have to think about attention. It should 389 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: be inherent. 390 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: So I'm hopeful that cost per meaning less thousand will 391 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 3: go back to cost per thousand and we can continue 392 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 3: to judge on reach and impressions, but constrained by what 393 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 3: we know, which is what my vision for this category 394 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 3: was eleven years ago. More So, I think we're right 395 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 3: out of people to time because of the change in AI. 396 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: Which is interesting because yes, we've obviously got different views 397 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: as to whether AI's detrimental or positive to our industry, 398 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: so it is good to hear those. One of the 399 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: things that was in the data was around the compounding 400 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: or the larger impact for the challenger brands that face this. 401 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: So I just want to go back to that point 402 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: as well, because we sort of missed over it earlier 403 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: and the fact that this is even worse a worse 404 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: situation for the challenger of brands. Karen, can I just 405 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: get you to talk a little bit about what you 406 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: found from that point of view, and then Peter, can 407 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: I ask you just to put that in some context 408 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: for us. 409 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: Firstly, this is not in your news. 410 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 3: The penalty was exactly the same as we saw last time, 411 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 3: but when you've got a smaller budget, the penalty looks 412 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 3: bigger because there but ultimately. 413 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: Established brands have. 414 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 3: Mental availability, brand credibility, whatever you know, People know who 415 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: you are. There's a level of knowledge and memory built 416 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 3: around the one hundred year old brand. So when you're 417 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 3: less seen, there is somewhat of a buffer. Challenges don't 418 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: have that buffer if you're not as well known, and 419 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 3: that's why you're a challenger. Because mental availability is connected 420 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: to growth or to brand or market share size, then 421 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: your penalty of not being seen is much more significant. 422 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 3: It's much more severe. So it's actually like compounded, so 423 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: it's not just you know half, it's well double, it's 424 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: six x times worse. So when you unpack this data 425 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 3: and we are going to write a report around it, 426 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 3: what you'll see is that not that I'd highly recommend this, 427 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 3: but to Peter's point around you know, portfolio waiting, bigger 428 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 3: brands can it's less efficient, but they can survive with 429 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 3: some spend across very dull formats by the nature of 430 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 3: the strength of their brand and the recognition of that. 431 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: But challenges can't. 432 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: And so it knows dives in terms of efficiency outcomes 433 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: when at the point when. 434 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: Challenges are advertising in these very dull media. 435 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: So Peter to give us a bit of an example 436 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: then practically of how that might apply. 437 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 4: So this is really interesting. This idea of double jeopardy 438 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 4: is one of the biggest points that I've taken from 439 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 4: this and spouting far and wide, and all my colleagues 440 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 4: are really bored already of me talking about it. With 441 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 4: challenger brands, you often don't have huge amounts of budgets 442 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 4: to be able to spend. So for new brands that 443 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 4: are coming into a category, a well established category, or 444 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 4: you know, we're living in an age of disruption, a 445 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 4: totally brand new category, You've got the energy of novelty, 446 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 4: but that only gets you so far. And so if 447 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 4: you don't have as Karen talked about, existing memory structures 448 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 4: where really small triggers, really small stimulus of advertising are 449 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 4: helping memory retrieval, what are we remembering? We're not remembering 450 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 4: anything right, We're getting attention, but we're not really sure 451 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 4: what it is. So we move on. A really good example, though, 452 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 4: is one of our clients back at the ranch, who 453 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: I won't name, but we have really adopted this because 454 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 4: they are actually a very well established market leading brand. However, 455 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 4: the way that their product works is that every time 456 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 4: they come into market, they have a completely brand new 457 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 4: novel product and it's a really competitive space where everybody 458 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 4: is coming in with brand new novel products. So actually, 459 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 4: even though they are a leadership brand, we have to 460 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 4: treat every release like it's a challenger. Now, because those 461 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 4: memory structures don't exist, that means that we have to 462 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 4: change how we plan. So as we're phasing our campaign activity, 463 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 4: we're thinking about what are the channels that are going 464 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 4: to help us to build memory, help us to deliver 465 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 4: storytelling that needs to be done, help us to you know, 466 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 4: put a stake in the ground and a point of reference. 467 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 4: And then as as the campaign progresses, we need less 468 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 4: of that. So we've used a bit of frequency. We've 469 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 4: absolutely used those channels that are delivering those larger windows 470 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 4: of time because of the ejectives that we have to 471 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 4: deliver too. And then we start to shorten the windows 472 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 4: of time because we don't need quite so long. And 473 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 4: so what Karen would call we move into more dull 474 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 4: channels potentially and move away from non channels. We do 475 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 4: that quite specifically and strategically. And what for us, what 476 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 4: that helps us do for this particular client is balance 477 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 4: those challenges that we have that we've been talking about 478 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 4: around cost efficiency and effectiveness with audiences in creating those 479 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 4: memory structures. 480 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: Because that's the thing when I when I first looked 481 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: at this, I have to admit I fell into the 482 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: trap of going, Okay, well, does this this tell me 483 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: I've got to stop spending on beta and just spend 484 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: all my money on cinema? 485 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 5: Right? 486 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: You know, I kind of fell into that. 487 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 4: I would like us to think that absolutely. 488 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: But that's obviously not not what we're saying here. So 489 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: but yes, my brain is falling into that trap as 490 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: I look at this. So for the other marketers who 491 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: potentially are sitting there looking this, who are not in 492 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: the planning tools as close as you are, Peter, you know, 493 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: what do you say back to that? Because I'm like, Okay, 494 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: well what do I do there? 495 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 5: I'm going to answer that, Yeah, feel free to fall 496 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 5: into your trap, because that is a great outcome for us. 497 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 4: It's a great temptation. It looks awesome on paper, doesn't it. 498 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 4: It really does, but it's not realistic and it's not 499 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 4: pragmatic because we do have finite budgets and sometimes we 500 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 4: need to get in front of as many people as 501 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 4: we possibly can and we need to just trigger them 502 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 4: and off we go. And if you're using again, if 503 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 4: you're using platforms and formats in the right way, you're 504 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 4: actually going to get the right outcomes. So if you're 505 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 4: trying to trigger like more of a performance sale for instance, 506 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 4: because you have actually done the brand building using other 507 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 4: non dull channels, you're golden. That's why performance works. But 508 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 4: it's if you're trying to put all of your budget 509 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 4: into cost effective which is what Karen is saying, it's 510 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 4: a bit of a misnomer because of attention and dullness. 511 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 4: That's when you go wrong. So my response to that is, 512 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 4: please speak to your friendly strategist or planner. This is 513 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 4: a craft that we do. I know that can sound 514 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 4: a bit silly at times, but we are in so 515 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 4: much data and analytics and understanding so many different types 516 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 4: of science here that it's actually it's not a one 517 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 4: size fit all approach for any brand or any category, 518 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 4: or even any audience as well. So different audiences react 519 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 4: in different ways and need different windows of time as well, 520 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 4: so you have to get into the nuance just to 521 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 4: sort of. 522 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 3: Step back from that and add She's right. I think 523 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 3: the biggest thing for advertisers to even take from this is, 524 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 3: you know, I say cost per menialists thousand because it's 525 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: funny now, but it really is. So I think the 526 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: reality is stop thinking about I get if you've got 527 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 3: to finite amount of budget, that's one thing, but a 528 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 3: more expensive seat does not necessarily mean it's not value, 529 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 3: you know, Like, so I think that's the biggest piece 530 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: of anyone, regardless of the how much more do you 531 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 3: need to spend you know, blah blah blah, stick a shock. Ultimately, 532 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: I wrote a paper for Wall Street Journal years ago 533 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 3: with the first ever kind of equivalent wedge said, you know, 534 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 3: this platform is six times cheaper, but actually should be 535 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 3: twenty times cheaper relative to the outcome, and this platform 536 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 3: is six times dearer. Most people get really upset about that, 537 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 3: but it's actually twenty times more effective. 538 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: So I think that is still. 539 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: To me, the biggest thing that advertisers should take from this, 540 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: And to Peter's point, that's where a strategist comes in 541 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 3: because they can understand the nuance it sits behind the cost. 542 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 3: It's like saying, you know, a more expensive car isn't 543 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: worth it. Well, it is. If it's got a better engine. 544 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 3: It's gonna last year, three hundred thousand kilometers, it's got 545 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: to you know. 546 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. 547 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: But you might not be able to afford it. That's 548 00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 3: kind of what you've got to start to think about. 549 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 550 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 4: The other thing I would say, and this might be 551 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 4: a little bit provocative, is it's all in the briefing. 552 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 4: So some marketers know exactly what they need to do. 553 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 4: They know their consumers. 554 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: Really really well. 555 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 4: They know the job, they know the behavioral job, they 556 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 4: know all about memory, they know all of those sorts 557 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 4: of things. But there are other marketers who are focused 558 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 4: on different things. They're optimizing to completely different objectives. So 559 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 4: they're not thinking about the people necessarily and what it 560 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 4: takes to convince or persuade or trigger someone to purchase. 561 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 4: And so they might be just using, to be fair, 562 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 4: what we've taught them for a long time out our industry, 563 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 4: not personally, but our industry has taught for a long time. Hey, awareness, 564 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 4: Awareness will drive get a certain amount of awareness, it'll 565 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 4: drive a certain amount of consideration, push it on down 566 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 4: that funnel. But I think this whole conversation shows us 567 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 4: that we need to evolve from that as well. The 568 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 4: funnel works as a way of telling a story, but 569 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 4: it's not actually how people work. And so if you 570 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 4: can brief your agencies, your media partners in what's the 571 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: actual job that I'm trying to do, what is the 572 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 4: actual connection I'm trying to make, You're going to probably 573 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 4: have quite a different media plan now. Having said that 574 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 4: as well, for marketers, if you have a CEO who's 575 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 4: only talking to you about how many people have you 576 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 4: reached and how efficient have you been, and you're pushing 577 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 4: that onto your media agency, which of course you are, 578 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 4: of course you are. That's of course our job is 579 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 4: to de risk that for you. So we are going 580 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 4: to deliver to what you ask us to deliver to. 581 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 4: And this is the role of strategist to come back 582 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 4: and go, sure you want to do. 583 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: That, Yes, well, I know that. When we have been 584 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: talking in the lead up to this podcast, one of 585 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: the things we talked about was again that point of 586 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: risk and the idea that fewer eggs in the basket 587 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: can scare people off. So you know this is potentially 588 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: leading to concentrating some of that spend for example. That's 589 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: one part of it. But the second is obviously if 590 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: you're optimizing and optimizing and you know you're going to 591 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: get the sales in the short term despite what might 592 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: happen in the long term, then you're optimizing to that. 593 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: Then you're going to go for that. 594 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 4: And if when you look at CMO Tenure, CEO Tenure, honestly, 595 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 4: how can we ask them to make any other decisions? 596 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 4: We can't. 597 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 5: But I think there's a sense from media that we 598 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 5: see a world where it's all become very isolated. It's 599 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 5: one channel does one job, and I don't think that's 600 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 5: true anymore. So it's you know, we're seeing a lot 601 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 5: more work come through. The consideration about our channel. Is 602 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 5: what we're trying to shift people to is away just 603 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 5: from spots and dots and into more interesting work around 604 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 5: the cultural benefits of cinema, how you do activations, the 605 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 5: different viewing experiences, and that's seen a twenty percent rise 606 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 5: in the last two years, so it's definitely working. But 607 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 5: it's trying to move that needle away from the moment 608 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 5: where it's just I just want to reach people, and 609 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 5: it's cheap, and I want to find the cheapest way 610 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 5: to do it. And I take Peter's point, I really do. 611 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 5: I think it's you know, there's going to be those briefs. 612 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 5: There always will be those briefs and those requirements to 613 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 5: use those channels for that basis. But I feel there 614 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 5: is a tipping point in that world where we are 615 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 5: not just being isolated and analyzed on our own. It's 616 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 5: this whole idea of combinations, and certainly some of the 617 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 5: tools and these dear strategists at Arts and Science specifically 618 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 5: are helping that conversation. 619 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, actually, just what impact 620 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: the mmms are having on that, because obviously we've seen 621 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: a lot more take and to your point, they're supposed 622 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: to be comparing things across the spectrum rather than purely 623 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: by channel. 624 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 5: When we are working with an MMM provider and we 625 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 5: are helping them with the data inputs to get more 626 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 5: interesting information out of cinema in terms of audience and 627 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 5: splits and markets and time and demographics, then we see 628 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,959 Speaker 5: a disproportionate, disproportionate rise in performance. Where we've fallen down 629 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 5: with MMM models is when aggregate spend data goes in 630 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 5: over a couple of weeks or a month, and it 631 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 5: tells you almost nothing. And so we want and the 632 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 5: conversations we're having more interesting now because we're starting to 633 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 5: understand what that level of sufficiency is required the data 634 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 5: in and the spend in to be able to tell 635 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 5: a real story about what is really working here. And 636 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 5: we've had some conversations with clients that have invested point 637 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 5: nine percent of their total spend over three years and 638 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 5: they're making a judgment call based on that that we 639 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 5: don't work and it just can't be correct. We can't 640 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 5: run a research study with less than twelve percent reach 641 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 5: for its robustness. So there is a massive gap between 642 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 5: that part of it. That said, you know, once we 643 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 5: have found some MA results, we've gone from last to second, 644 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 5: once we've actually been able to interrogate some of the 645 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 5: data change formats think about the price. So this isn't 646 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 5: about coming to us and you know, running off into 647 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 5: the sun with those glorious CPMs. It is about working 648 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 5: with agencies and clients to find what number is palatable 649 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 5: for the category, the moment, the challenge, etc. So I 650 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 5: think it's the most interesting part because it has exploded 651 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 5: over eighteen months. There's no doubt. 652 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: One of the things that I love as well. Just 653 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: going back talking to Peter's point and Karen around the 654 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: attention as well, and in conversations where we've talked about 655 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: just bringing that as a lens to kind of keep 656 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: you honest in your media and what you're looking at. 657 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: I find that just really interesting in itself as literally 658 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: just a bit of a check like even if we 659 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: can't get ourselves to take this lock stock and barrel, 660 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: the fact that we you know, just starting to see 661 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: that change media decisions is actually really great to heart. 662 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 4: All about quality, Yeah, it's all about quality, and it's 663 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 4: you know, we've had the conversation about viewability and that's 664 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 4: been kind of the lead lever, I guess as we've 665 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 4: talked about quality, but now we're talking about cognition. And 666 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 4: so for as a behavior change specialist, cognition, it's all 667 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 4: about cognition. But we should all be thinking about that, 668 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 4: whether you're behavior change specialist or not, because it's think 669 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 4: about it for yourself. What are you paying attention to? 670 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 4: How much attention are you paying as you're you know, 671 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 4: seeing advertising out there in the world. What does capture 672 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 4: your attention? Why does it? I would really love for 673 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 4: people to be using their own experiences to think about 674 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 4: this more deeply. And then when you're actually applying this 675 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 4: thinking to your briefing and to your conversations and to 676 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 4: your creative and media development, it helps. 677 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: Karen, what are you hoping from this? If there were 678 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: some practical applications from this, what are you sort of 679 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: hoping that the marketers will take away from this? 680 00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 2: From this work? 681 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 3: Two things unification of media and creative as a concept 682 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 3: of a brief slash strategy. 683 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, for it. 684 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 3: To happen in silo this day and age is crazy 685 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 3: because the inefficiencies between the two solos are stupid obvious 686 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 3: in stuff like this. And then the second piece we've 687 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 3: spoken about, which is the cost is not a measure 688 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 3: that's equal. And I started the saying not a rich 689 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 3: is equal in you know, eleven years ago, and now 690 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 3: it's the cost of mending. 691 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: Our salesman is because it's not equal, you know. So 692 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 2: I think I think people just really need to re visit. 693 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 3: And it's funny because I often say, you know, when 694 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 3: you go to a supermarket, they were forced to put 695 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 3: unit price on there because there was a whole a 696 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 3: triple C thing around. You're misleading people if you're a 697 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 3: dollar but you give them less and they're two dollars, 698 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 3: you know, or you know, whatever it is. You know, 699 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 3: it's so you have to come down to the unit 700 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 3: And I look at this like that, this is a 701 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 3: unit cost. And yet we're not as an industry when 702 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,720 Speaker 3: it's billions and billions of dollars spend. Yeah, as an industry, 703 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 3: we're not forcing people to think about it in that context. 704 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 3: We're going, oh, that's okay, we'll buy that three dollars, 705 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 3: even though it shouldn't be that that much, Sure, too 706 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 3: little or whatever, you know. 707 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: So Karen's brought up the unification of media and creative 708 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: and clearly, if you look at these two pieces of 709 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: research together, there's an interesting story to tell. So Peter, 710 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: give us a comment on how you feel about that 711 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: and what does that mean. 712 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 4: I think it's really exciting because media and creative teams 713 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 4: have been utilized separately and often in silos throughout advertising history. 714 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 4: Sometimes we're together, sometimes we're apart. Sometimes there's a different hierarchy. 715 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 4: Think what this data really shows us extremely clearly is 716 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 4: that we're equal footing. We should be briefed together. You 717 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 4: should have your specialists in the room at the same 718 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 4: time so that they are able to plan, build, and 719 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 4: create work for our clients and for our brands. That 720 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 4: is going to deliver growth that leverages great creative and 721 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,479 Speaker 4: great media. That's going to work to the budget. That's 722 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 4: the only way that it will actually work. If you're 723 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 4: kind of planning based on budget alone, you're going to 724 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 4: have a plan that looks one way. If you're planning 725 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 4: based on creative alone, you're going to have a plan 726 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 4: that looks quite different. But actually the two need to 727 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 4: work hand in glove together. We've talked about efficiency a 728 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 4: lot and how we're planning, and it's how we're measuring, etc. 729 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 4: But it's really for me, the most important part of 730 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 4: all of this is that it actually gives us the 731 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 4: tools to be able to switch the conversation more strongly 732 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 4: it's not the right phrase, but more strongly towards effectiveness 733 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 4: and connection with consumers. There is so much research, There 734 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 4: are so many books written by Karen and her incredible 735 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 4: marketing science friends that all tell us the same thing, 736 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 4: which is you have to be out in market a 737 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 4: lot having a meaningful emotional connection, defining what emotion you 738 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 4: want to use and leverage, and thinking about the people 739 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 4: and the humans and how their brains work and what 740 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 4: that processing looks like, how memory is built. If you 741 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 4: can do all of that and not think about the 742 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 4: bottom line all the time as the primary factor, you're 743 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,959 Speaker 4: going to get to great advertising. 744 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: Sounds simple, hopefully will we'll trigger a few thoughts on 745 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: that well. Thank you so much, Guy, Peter, and Karen 746 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 1: for participating in this MI three podcast today. 747 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 2: Thank you for having us. 748 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 5: Thanks thanks. 749 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: This three audio edition was presented by Nadia Cameron, producer 750 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: Alissa Partington. Music by Matt Dwyer. For more episodes, download 751 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: the iHeart app and search three free audio edition, or 752 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: do the same for any of the major podcast networks.