WEBVTT - The first global plastics treaty

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is this is the daily Art, This

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<v Speaker 1>is the Daly ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 2>the thirteenth of August.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy Fitzsimon's.

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<v Speaker 2>High level officials from more than one hundred and seventy

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<v Speaker 2>countries are in Switzerland right now to finalize the first

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<v Speaker 2>legally binding treaty on plastics. Negotiations began in twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 2>two when the United Nations Environment Assembly that's the world's

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<v Speaker 2>highest decision making body on the environment, agreed on the

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<v Speaker 2>need to address the environmental and health impacts of plastic

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<v Speaker 2>pollution and waste.

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<v Speaker 3>Since then, five negotiation sessions have failed to reach a consensus.

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<v Speaker 3>This time, protesters outside the UN are calling for courage,

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<v Speaker 3>not compromise, But with a record number of fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 3>lobbyists attending the latest of talks in Geneva, there are

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<v Speaker 3>concerns that global efforts could stall further. Doctor Nicholas Charters

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<v Speaker 3>is a senior Research fellow with the University of Sydney's

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<v Speaker 3>Faculty of Medicine and Health. As a leading authority on

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<v Speaker 3>the health impacts of plastic pollution and microplastics. He's part

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<v Speaker 3>of a group of experts who have made several recommendations

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<v Speaker 3>for the un Plastics Treaty.

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<v Speaker 1>The amount that's already in the environment, this is the

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<v Speaker 1>really scary bit. We can't get it out. It's in everything,

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<v Speaker 1>It's in every type of soil sentiment. You know. The

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<v Speaker 1>particles are so small in the ocean, they're already in

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<v Speaker 1>our body, and so that for me is probably the

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<v Speaker 1>most concerning piece.

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<v Speaker 2>Nick joins us for today's deep dive to unpack everything

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<v Speaker 2>you need to know about these negotiations and the current

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<v Speaker 2>state of play. Doctor Charters, Welcome to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks Harymy.

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<v Speaker 2>For people who are listening who might not have heard

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<v Speaker 2>about this treaty at all, firstly, can you explain to

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<v Speaker 2>us what it actually is and why it's being discussed

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<v Speaker 2>right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure? So, Back in twenty twenty two, the United Nation

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<v Speaker 1>Member States adopted a resolution to negotiate the first international

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<v Speaker 1>legal binding treaty to end plastic pollution. So this has

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<v Speaker 1>been ongoing for the last three years. There has been

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<v Speaker 1>a series of meetings to develop the language that we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to the treaties. Though, what it will actually do

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<v Speaker 1>and what the member states will have to commit to essentially,

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the main sticking points or challenges with

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<v Speaker 1>this is that the majority of member states are wanting

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<v Speaker 1>to cap plastic production and they also want to end

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<v Speaker 1>the use of non toxic chemicals in the production of plastics.

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<v Speaker 1>Not many people realize that plastics are made from oil

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<v Speaker 1>and gas, but they also have thousands of additive chemicals

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<v Speaker 1>in them to essentially give them the characteristics the plastics have.

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<v Speaker 1>And obviously there's lots of different types of plastics. And

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<v Speaker 1>then there's a small coalition of fossil fuel producing, a

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<v Speaker 1>petrochemical producing member states that are pushing back against this

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<v Speaker 1>idea of capping plastic production and also cap in the

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<v Speaker 1>use of these chemicals. And that's essentially because they want

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<v Speaker 1>to see a focus on recycling and waste management so

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<v Speaker 1>that they can continue to essentially produce and make plastic

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<v Speaker 1>because it's such a huge revenue stream for them.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to focus in a little bit on the

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<v Speaker 2>problems that the treaty is trying to solve. You've touched

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<v Speaker 2>on there, but how urgent is a treaty like this

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<v Speaker 2>and can you tell us more about those problems?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean absolutely. I think most people would just

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<v Speaker 1>know from their own experience in their lived environment that

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<v Speaker 1>plastic's becoming more and more of an issue. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think in Australia we have always thought we live in

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<v Speaker 1>such a pristine, an amazing environment, and we certainly still do.

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<v Speaker 1>But I mean you only need to take a walk

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<v Speaker 1>on a beach, or look at the streets, or just

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<v Speaker 1>look at your own house and look at how any

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<v Speaker 1>plastic products are now in that environment. They're abiquitous and

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<v Speaker 1>there everywhere, and these are the ones that we can see.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm talking about like the larger sized pieces of

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<v Speaker 1>plastic just to give you an understanding of how big

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is. We make about four hundred and ninety

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<v Speaker 1>million metric tons of plastic a year, and so of like,

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<v Speaker 1>well what does that look like. Well, it's doubled since

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and eight. And if you think it looks

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<v Speaker 1>bad now, only if you think the beaches in the

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<v Speaker 1>water from your own experience looks polluted. It's going to

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<v Speaker 1>triple in the next thirty years. So we're in a

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<v Speaker 1>triple plastic production in the next thirty years. Based on

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<v Speaker 1>the projections that have been made on how the oil

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<v Speaker 1>and gas industry are going to essentially use plastics as

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<v Speaker 1>an new revenue stree. So as the world starts to

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<v Speaker 1>transition away from energy and transport for a primary source

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<v Speaker 1>of oil and gas, about fifty percent of oil and

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<v Speaker 1>gas will be used by twenty sixty for making plastics.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's going to become an even bigger shuit of

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<v Speaker 1>what we're currently experiencing. What I mentioned before about the

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<v Speaker 1>plastics that you can see, I mean, that's one thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and so we think about plastics often, and we've drown

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<v Speaker 1>up thinking about plastics as these larger pieces of over

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<v Speaker 1>material that we can pick up, put in and recycling

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<v Speaker 1>bin and essentially just happens and we get new products

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<v Speaker 1>made from them. And that's what we've been told. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a story, a narrative. It's shaped by the fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 1>industry back in the seventies and eighties that we can

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<v Speaker 1>recycle our way out of this problem. About eight nine

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<v Speaker 1>percent globally. Different averages, different estimates have been put forward,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's the ballpark number for how much plastic we recycle,

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<v Speaker 1>eight to nine percent globally each year. And there's about

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<v Speaker 1>one percent of plastic that gets recycled twice in its lifetime.

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<v Speaker 1>So the idea that we can actually recycle plastic is

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<v Speaker 1>a fallacy, and there's a lot of health issues with

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<v Speaker 1>that concept as well. So when we're thinking about plastic

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<v Speaker 1>that we can see, obviously it's a huge issue based

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<v Speaker 1>on what we really know, but another really concerned anything

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<v Speaker 1>of these tiny particles that we can't see, not its microplastics.

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people would be really surprised

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<v Speaker 2>to hear the scale of plastics production that it's doubled

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<v Speaker 2>since two thousand and eight, because you know, socially, culturally,

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<v Speaker 2>we've become so much more aware of plastics use. I'd

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<v Speaker 2>say in our data day lives, we're more conscious about

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<v Speaker 2>the plastic we use. Where is all of that manufacturing

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<v Speaker 2>coming from and what's it going towards?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a good question. So over fifty percent is

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<v Speaker 1>single year still, so there's single use products are still made,

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<v Speaker 1>including things like food packaging. And then there's this one

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<v Speaker 1>of the second well I think it's the third largest

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<v Speaker 1>is which most people often don't make the association is textiles.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyone out there that wears athleisure, where anyone that's

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<v Speaker 1>wearing any type of spandex material you're pretty much wearing

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<v Speaker 1>oil and gas. So polyester materials, polyethylene, they're essentially the

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<v Speaker 1>materials are made from an oil and gas backbone. We

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<v Speaker 1>still have a huge line in things like food manufacturing.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a huge issue as well. So if you

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<v Speaker 1>think about our food systems now, we're highly dependent on

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<v Speaker 1>food packaging and obviously that's made from plastic. If you

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<v Speaker 1>think about obviously coat bottles or soft drink bottles, you

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<v Speaker 1>think about the level of consumption, there's still huge sources

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<v Speaker 1>contributing to this. And one of the again the keys is,

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<v Speaker 1>like I said, is that we often will purchase products

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<v Speaker 1>that may have the recycling so we call them the

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<v Speaker 1>chasing arrow symbols of the Three Arrows, and people look

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<v Speaker 1>at it and it's a very clever bit of marketing.

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<v Speaker 1>So people look at them and they go, oh, water relief,

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<v Speaker 1>it's got that recycling logo on, and I can drink

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<v Speaker 1>this without in the environment, and we're drinking and pop

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<v Speaker 1>it in that bin over there and know that it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to go back and be reused. And again that's

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<v Speaker 1>a fallacy and one of the things people need to

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<v Speaker 1>become aware of is that we can't, unfortunately, protect ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>and the environment from the impacts of plastic through recycling,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's because of the chemicals in them, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>also because of the tiny fragments that break down from

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<v Speaker 1>them over time. And we're learning more and more, but

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<v Speaker 1>those signed fragments are getting into us and they bioaccumulating,

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<v Speaker 1>So basically we can't get released little particles and we're

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<v Speaker 1>getting more and more into our bodies.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to talk a little more about the specifics

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<v Speaker 2>of the treaty in a second, but before we get there,

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<v Speaker 2>can you speak to me about the health impacts of

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<v Speaker 2>these plastics, particularly microplastics. You know, as you mentioned, we

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<v Speaker 2>do hear a lot about plastics polluting the oceans. We

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<v Speaker 2>have that, you know, the pollution that we can see

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<v Speaker 2>and the understanding of its place in the environment. But

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<v Speaker 2>what health risks does all of this pose to the

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<v Speaker 2>average person?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, thinking about plastic kicks of two main constituents,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the first one is the backbone. The polyme

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<v Speaker 1>backbone is made from oil and gas, so essentially plastic

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<v Speaker 1>is petrol. So not many people realize that. So the

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<v Speaker 1>main part of the plastic material that you're holding a

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<v Speaker 1>single use, single use plastics ninety act centum are made

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<v Speaker 1>from oil and gas, but any type of plastic will

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<v Speaker 1>have that type of petrol backbone essentially. And then there

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<v Speaker 1>are all these additional additives I mentioned before included into

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<v Speaker 1>the plastic to give it its characteristic depending on what

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<v Speaker 1>it's trying to do. So things like PFAS, which has

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<v Speaker 1>been in the media a lot lately, forever chemicals, ye,

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<v Speaker 1>forever chemicals exactly. But another one which most people don't

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<v Speaker 1>really know about, something called a phthalate, which is basically

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<v Speaker 1>these classic chemicals that we know are endocrime disrupting chemicals,

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<v Speaker 1>and what that means is they essentially alter our body's

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<v Speaker 1>natural hormone system. So these chemicals are getting included into

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<v Speaker 1>that oil and gas backbone that I mentioned before, with

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<v Speaker 1>very little transparency on the reporting as well. So when

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<v Speaker 1>these plastics are made, we often don't know what's in

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<v Speaker 1>the plastic. But what we're now learning, which is probably

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<v Speaker 1>the most concerning component of all this, is that the

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<v Speaker 1>plastic particles are breaking down to these tiny fragments, to

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<v Speaker 1>what we call a microplastic, which is essentially smaller than

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<v Speaker 1>half a centimeter, but they can go right down to

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<v Speaker 1>the size of something like a human blood cell or

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<v Speaker 1>smaller than your human hair, so you wouldn't actually see

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<v Speaker 1>these particles in the environment. So they're essentially every wedding,

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<v Speaker 1>and so a lot of research in the last two

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<v Speaker 1>to three years has come out looking at both how

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<v Speaker 1>they accumulate in our bodies so they get in and

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<v Speaker 1>they don't leave. But we've just done a review last

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<v Speaker 1>year looking at what are the health effects of these

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<v Speaker 1>microplastic particles. It's been tricky to study, so you know

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of authoritative bodies around the world have to

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<v Speaker 1>regulate chemicals using animal studies because that's all we have.

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<v Speaker 1>And what we found across large number of animal studies

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<v Speaker 1>were these really consistent effects in the respiratory, digestive and

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<v Speaker 1>also reproductive system. So we saw the impact of fertility.

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<v Speaker 1>We also saw that increase these biological markers in our body,

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<v Speaker 1>things like chronic inflammation in both the lung and also

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<v Speaker 1>in the column. So we saw these suspected links to

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<v Speaker 1>these cancers. So we're starting to see more and more

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<v Speaker 1>evidence coming out to show that yeah, once these things

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<v Speaker 1>around our body, it makes sense they're oil and gas

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<v Speaker 1>and these chemicals I mentioned before they're going to lead

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<v Speaker 1>to a raft at health effects, which is the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that is probably most concerning.

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<v Speaker 2>When it comes to the treaty. I suppose there are

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<v Speaker 2>so many facets that you have mentioned as concern areas,

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<v Speaker 2>from transparency, through production to marketing. What are some of

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<v Speaker 2>the big sticking points or the disagreements between countries in

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<v Speaker 2>these negotiations, or between even kind trees versus health experts.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, I mean, if that's interesting point about countries birth

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<v Speaker 1>health experts. At the moment, I think in Geneva, there's

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<v Speaker 1>three hundred and thirty five last estimates industry lobbyists fossil

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<v Speaker 1>fuel and chemical companies, and I think they're out numbering

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<v Speaker 1>academics at five to one, or scientists at five to one,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, indigenous communities at ten to one. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>these negotiations are flooded by the invested interests of these

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<v Speaker 1>corporations that want to produce plastics. And the main sticking

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<v Speaker 1>point very simply is that a number of fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 1>producing countries is coalition of countries which now includes the

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<v Speaker 1>United States. They do not want to cap plastics production

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<v Speaker 1>very simply. You know, they don't want to stop extracting

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<v Speaker 1>oil and gas out of the ground. But if we

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<v Speaker 1>are going to be using it for energy and transport,

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<v Speaker 1>the world starts transitioning regards to what the United States

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<v Speaker 1>is currently doing, they need a new revenue stroom, and

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<v Speaker 1>plastics is the obvious one because they can argue that

0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.000
<v Speaker 1>we are relying on them in society and we have

0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.760
<v Speaker 1>become but it doesn't mean they're essential. So the very

0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.360
<v Speaker 1>simple takeaway at the moment is that they don't want

0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:07.240
<v Speaker 1>to cap plastic, and over one hundred and ten nations

0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.720
<v Speaker 1>at the moment do and that's essentially where the treaties

0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:11.719
<v Speaker 1>still lie. Can we get agreement on.

0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.440
<v Speaker 2>This if the influence of these manufacturers and lobbyists is

0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.720
<v Speaker 2>so intense, Is there a middle ground? Is there a

0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.000
<v Speaker 2>way to switch at scale for some change?

0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean this is the tricky part. So one

0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.920
<v Speaker 1>of the I don't want to say critical flaws or flaws,

0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.080
<v Speaker 1>but the actual rules of procedure and how the treaty

0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.120
<v Speaker 1>is going to be finalized. There's been one of the

0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.360
<v Speaker 1>main issues with it. Essentially, these countries are saying that

0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.199
<v Speaker 1>it needs to be a consensus so everyone has the

0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.640
<v Speaker 1>route and the draft rules of procedure actually allow for

0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.120
<v Speaker 1>what they call a qualified majority voting when consensus fails. So,

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.080
<v Speaker 1>in other words, if you can't get consensus, can we

0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.640
<v Speaker 1>get a majority of votes to essentially move the treaty

0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.720
<v Speaker 1>language forward and start finalizing something that is legally binding.

0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Because at the moment this is the fifth meeting, it

0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:59.439
<v Speaker 1>was actually meant to be the final meaning back in

0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.360
<v Speaker 1>November last year, and again language could not be finalized

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.280
<v Speaker 1>because there was a consensus. So what may happen here

0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 1>is that there is you know, this country is just

0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 1>won't agree to consensus and they are also with their

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.440
<v Speaker 1>recognize this idea of a qualified majority voting if it

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 1>does take place. So what may need to happen is

0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.120
<v Speaker 1>the countries that are say, look, we want to we

0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.000
<v Speaker 1>want to come up with a global plan on how

0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 1>we redgise plastics. Is it they essentially develop it, and

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 1>they're going to have to try to do that, you know,

0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.240
<v Speaker 1>with those those countries removed from the process, because otherwise

0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 1>just nothing will take playing some fortunate we are just

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.520
<v Speaker 1>going to be in this essentially a whole wind pattern.

0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.199
<v Speaker 2>What role is Australia playing in these negotiations? Are we

0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.080
<v Speaker 2>leading or lagging with the pack? And how does that

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 2>take into our own plastics manufacturing here.

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, Australia at the

0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>moment is in alignment with the idea that there needs

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 1>to be reduction in plastic production. So in Australia is

0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.440
<v Speaker 1>supporting this idea that we don't want, that we should

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 1>be trying to catch to a sustainable level. It's a

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 1>little bit vague in terms of I guess you know

0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 1>what our complete commitment is, and we certainly can still

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>do a lot more back in Australia immediately as well.

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's no reason why we don't immediately ban

0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:17.320
<v Speaker 1>on essential plastics since you use plastics in Australia. There's

0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 1>lots we can do that current environment, which is important

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 1>and we're not a huge global player. But I mean

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.120
<v Speaker 1>the fact that we are supporting a reduction in plastic

0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:27.040
<v Speaker 1>I think is important.

0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.480
<v Speaker 2>What are some of the key points that you think

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 2>belong in a successful treaty? What would be your kind

0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 2>of priority areas for the most urgent things that if

0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.080
<v Speaker 2>you could change tomorrow you would enact.

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean the obvious one, as we've talked about,

0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 1>is capping. This keeps me up at night. Because I

0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.840
<v Speaker 1>don't think people fully understand how much this is going

0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>to impact generations to come, particularly if you have children,

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 1>which I do. Even if we start to cap plastics,

0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:03.040
<v Speaker 1>and if we move towards reducing the volume, the amount

0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.960
<v Speaker 1>that's already in the environment, this is the really scary

0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 1>but we can't get it out. It's in everything, It's

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.560
<v Speaker 1>in every type of soil sediment. The particles are so

0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.840
<v Speaker 1>small in the ocean, they're already in our body, and

0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.800
<v Speaker 1>so that for me, is probably the most concerning piece.

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 1>But we do need to take action, and so capping

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.360
<v Speaker 1>is absolutely critical to this, and there's a need to

0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 1>look immediately at non essential materials. So just very simply

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.560
<v Speaker 1>what is not critical for society to function. A critical

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 1>piece of material may be something like a medical device,

0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.480
<v Speaker 1>but even still there may be alternative materials that could

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 1>be used. The second thing is chemicals. You mentioned chemicals before.

0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 1>We already have a list of four thousand knowe toxic

0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 1>chemicals in plastics is about sixteen thousand that have been identified,

0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.320
<v Speaker 1>and so we need to bound those immediately being used

0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.080
<v Speaker 1>because once they're into the plastic, as I mentioned before,

0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.800
<v Speaker 1>we can't recycle those plastics. If those toxic chemicals are

0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.800
<v Speaker 1>in there or it's incredibly difficult to do that. So essentially,

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:01.920
<v Speaker 1>once they're put in, we know that they're going to

0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.120
<v Speaker 1>end up in landfill. And there needs to be global

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 1>implementation of databasic chemicals that are identified as toxic, similar

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 1>to the stock Own convention where they just get banned,

0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:13.560
<v Speaker 1>we can't use them. So that's the second thing when

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.920
<v Speaker 1>it's bound these toxic chemicals. A third thing is the

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 1>transparency around it. It needs to be reporting. So when

0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:21.920
<v Speaker 1>plastics are made, we need to know what's in them.

0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 1>Currently we have very little idea of how many added

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.120
<v Speaker 1>into these plastics. And then finally, how are we going

0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.120
<v Speaker 1>to pay for all this and implement it? And this

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.760
<v Speaker 1>is critical, this is happening. This is an issue, a

0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:37.200
<v Speaker 1>key issue with a lot of environmental catastrophes, similar to pafas,

0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.560
<v Speaker 1>where we have manufacturers and producers of these chemicals and

0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:45.160
<v Speaker 1>these environmental contaminants that essentially externalize the costs. So what

0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:46.720
<v Speaker 1>do I mean by that is they can make it,

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.960
<v Speaker 1>they make it a very cheap price, and then they

0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.000
<v Speaker 1>sell it. We consume it, but then we pay for

0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.240
<v Speaker 1>the health implications, both human health and environmental and so

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.800
<v Speaker 1>we're burdened with the ongoing impact and costs of these products,

0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:02.680
<v Speaker 1>even when we know that they're toxic low we do

0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.280
<v Speaker 1>now at plastics, So it's critical. It's really critical that

0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.920
<v Speaker 1>the implementation of a tree, but also just moving forward

0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 1>globally in terms of how we remediate and how we

0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.840
<v Speaker 1>reduce the impact or repair the impact of these contaminants

0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.440
<v Speaker 1>is that we put the burden back on the pluta.

0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 1>So the fossil full industry is the petrochemical companies and

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 1>the plastic companies that are making these need to bear

0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.520
<v Speaker 1>the costs for the impact that it calls into the environment.

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:33.000
<v Speaker 1>So capping plastic, removing toxic chemicals, increasing transparency on what's

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.080
<v Speaker 1>going into them, and making the pluters pay for this

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:36.800
<v Speaker 1>have been the four main things I'd want to see

0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:37.399
<v Speaker 1>in this treet you.

0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.640
<v Speaker 2>My last question for you, I think for individuals and

0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.320
<v Speaker 2>as young people much of our audience are young Australians,

0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.720
<v Speaker 2>it can feel a little bit hopeless or overwhelming when

0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 2>we consider these ongoing negotiations. You know, a bunch of

0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.119
<v Speaker 2>faceless suits at a table overseas trying to determine ways

0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.080
<v Speaker 2>around this. What can we do or can we do

0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.320
<v Speaker 2>anything to actually make a difference beyond just recycling. As

0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.679
<v Speaker 2>you've mentioned, that's its own flawed beast. What would your

0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 2>advice be.

0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Put it on the ballot. We know that civil action

0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.000
<v Speaker 1>and engagement around an issue can lead to change because

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:16.919
<v Speaker 1>there are a lot of community action groups out there

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.240
<v Speaker 1>at the moment on this, and also consumer action will

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.520
<v Speaker 1>lead to a lot of manufacturers changing. People can talk

0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 1>to their local members. We need to ensure that governments

0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.359
<v Speaker 1>know that this is something that potentially could lead to

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.159
<v Speaker 1>their position in parliament changing. There is an opportunity for

0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.760
<v Speaker 1>people to get around this as an idea and to

0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.919
<v Speaker 1>get governments to start responding in a timely way, because

0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.840
<v Speaker 1>if we wait thirty years and plastic production triples, the

0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.399
<v Speaker 1>amount of plastic that's going to be in this world

0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 1>and this environment's going to be near and possible to remove.

0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:49.920
<v Speaker 1>The idea is not to scare people. I think it's

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.760
<v Speaker 1>important for people to be aware of what's happening. It's

0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 1>a difficult concept to understand, and we've all been misinformed

0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.199
<v Speaker 1>about recycling idea that we can take care of it

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.959
<v Speaker 1>through that process and we simply can't. But we can

0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.959
<v Speaker 1>take action, and certainly I think people may informed. It's

0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.199
<v Speaker 1>more important than you're not having that information to make

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:11.000
<v Speaker 1>your own decisions.

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.320
<v Speaker 2>Nick, thank you so much for your time, fascinating and terrifying,

0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 2>and we will keep an eye on all the developments

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:19.960
<v Speaker 2>out of these negotiations.

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.639
<v Speaker 3>Thanks you Ta, such a fascinating chat there. Thank you

0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.600
<v Speaker 3>so much to doctor Nicholas Charters for that chat, and

0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.679
<v Speaker 3>to Emma for doing that amazing interview. And thank you

0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.480
<v Speaker 3>so much for listening to this episode of The Daily Os.

0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.119
<v Speaker 3>We'll be back this evening with your evening headlines, but

0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:40.679
<v Speaker 3>until then, have a great day.

0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.200
<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda

0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:48.240
<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily Os acknowledges

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.000
<v Speaker 1>Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.