1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the daily Art, This 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: is the Daly ohs oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Wednesday, 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: the thirteenth of August. 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 3: I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy Fitzsimon's. 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 2: High level officials from more than one hundred and seventy 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: countries are in Switzerland right now to finalize the first 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: legally binding treaty on plastics. Negotiations began in twenty twenty 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: two when the United Nations Environment Assembly that's the world's 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 2: highest decision making body on the environment, agreed on the 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: need to address the environmental and health impacts of plastic 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: pollution and waste. 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 3: Since then, five negotiation sessions have failed to reach a consensus. 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 3: This time, protesters outside the UN are calling for courage, 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: not compromise, But with a record number of fossil fuel 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: lobbyists attending the latest of talks in Geneva, there are 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 3: concerns that global efforts could stall further. Doctor Nicholas Charters 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 3: is a senior Research fellow with the University of Sydney's 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 3: Faculty of Medicine and Health. As a leading authority on 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 3: the health impacts of plastic pollution and microplastics. He's part 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 3: of a group of experts who have made several recommendations 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 3: for the un Plastics Treaty. 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: The amount that's already in the environment, this is the 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: really scary bit. We can't get it out. It's in everything, 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: It's in every type of soil sentiment. You know. The 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: particles are so small in the ocean, they're already in 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: our body, and so that for me is probably the 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: most concerning piece. 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: Nick joins us for today's deep dive to unpack everything 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: you need to know about these negotiations and the current 31 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: state of play. Doctor Charters, Welcome to the podcast. 32 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: Thanks Harymy. 33 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: For people who are listening who might not have heard 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: about this treaty at all, firstly, can you explain to 35 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: us what it actually is and why it's being discussed 36 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: right now? 37 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: Sure? So, Back in twenty twenty two, the United Nation 38 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: Member States adopted a resolution to negotiate the first international 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: legal binding treaty to end plastic pollution. So this has 40 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: been ongoing for the last three years. There has been 41 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: a series of meetings to develop the language that we're 42 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: going to the treaties. Though, what it will actually do 43 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: and what the member states will have to commit to essentially, 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: And one of the main sticking points or challenges with 45 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: this is that the majority of member states are wanting 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: to cap plastic production and they also want to end 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: the use of non toxic chemicals in the production of plastics. 48 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: Not many people realize that plastics are made from oil 49 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 1: and gas, but they also have thousands of additive chemicals 50 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: in them to essentially give them the characteristics the plastics have. 51 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: And obviously there's lots of different types of plastics. And 52 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: then there's a small coalition of fossil fuel producing, a 53 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: petrochemical producing member states that are pushing back against this 54 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: idea of capping plastic production and also cap in the 55 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: use of these chemicals. And that's essentially because they want 56 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: to see a focus on recycling and waste management so 57 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: that they can continue to essentially produce and make plastic 58 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: because it's such a huge revenue stream for them. 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: I want to focus in a little bit on the 60 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: problems that the treaty is trying to solve. You've touched 61 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: on there, but how urgent is a treaty like this 62 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: and can you tell us more about those problems? 63 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean absolutely. I think most people would just 64 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: know from their own experience in their lived environment that 65 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: plastic's becoming more and more of an issue. And I 66 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: think in Australia we have always thought we live in 67 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: such a pristine, an amazing environment, and we certainly still do. 68 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: But I mean you only need to take a walk 69 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: on a beach, or look at the streets, or just 70 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: look at your own house and look at how any 71 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: plastic products are now in that environment. They're abiquitous and 72 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: there everywhere, and these are the ones that we can see. 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: So I'm talking about like the larger sized pieces of 74 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: plastic just to give you an understanding of how big 75 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: the problem is. We make about four hundred and ninety 76 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: million metric tons of plastic a year, and so of like, 77 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: well what does that look like. Well, it's doubled since 78 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. And if you think it looks 79 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: bad now, only if you think the beaches in the 80 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: water from your own experience looks polluted. It's going to 81 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: triple in the next thirty years. So we're in a 82 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: triple plastic production in the next thirty years. Based on 83 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: the projections that have been made on how the oil 84 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: and gas industry are going to essentially use plastics as 85 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: an new revenue stree. So as the world starts to 86 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: transition away from energy and transport for a primary source 87 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: of oil and gas, about fifty percent of oil and 88 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: gas will be used by twenty sixty for making plastics. 89 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: So it's going to become an even bigger shuit of 90 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: what we're currently experiencing. What I mentioned before about the 91 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: plastics that you can see, I mean, that's one thing, 92 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: and so we think about plastics often, and we've drown 93 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: up thinking about plastics as these larger pieces of over 94 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: material that we can pick up, put in and recycling 95 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: bin and essentially just happens and we get new products 96 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: made from them. And that's what we've been told. It's 97 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: a story, a narrative. It's shaped by the fossil fuel 98 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: industry back in the seventies and eighties that we can 99 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: recycle our way out of this problem. About eight nine 100 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: percent globally. Different averages, different estimates have been put forward, 101 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: but that's the ballpark number for how much plastic we recycle, 102 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: eight to nine percent globally each year. And there's about 103 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: one percent of plastic that gets recycled twice in its lifetime. 104 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: So the idea that we can actually recycle plastic is 105 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: a fallacy, and there's a lot of health issues with 106 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: that concept as well. So when we're thinking about plastic 107 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: that we can see, obviously it's a huge issue based 108 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: on what we really know, but another really concerned anything 109 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: of these tiny particles that we can't see, not its microplastics. 110 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people would be really surprised 111 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: to hear the scale of plastics production that it's doubled 112 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: since two thousand and eight, because you know, socially, culturally, 113 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: we've become so much more aware of plastics use. I'd 114 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 2: say in our data day lives, we're more conscious about 115 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: the plastic we use. Where is all of that manufacturing 116 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: coming from and what's it going towards? 117 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. So over fifty percent is 118 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: single year still, so there's single use products are still made, 119 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: including things like food packaging. And then there's this one 120 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: of the second well I think it's the third largest 121 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: is which most people often don't make the association is textiles. 122 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: So anyone out there that wears athleisure, where anyone that's 123 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: wearing any type of spandex material you're pretty much wearing 124 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: oil and gas. So polyester materials, polyethylene, they're essentially the 125 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: materials are made from an oil and gas backbone. We 126 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: still have a huge line in things like food manufacturing. 127 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: This is a huge issue as well. So if you 128 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: think about our food systems now, we're highly dependent on 129 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: food packaging and obviously that's made from plastic. If you 130 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: think about obviously coat bottles or soft drink bottles, you 131 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: think about the level of consumption, there's still huge sources 132 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: contributing to this. And one of the again the keys is, 133 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: like I said, is that we often will purchase products 134 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: that may have the recycling so we call them the 135 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: chasing arrow symbols of the Three Arrows, and people look 136 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: at it and it's a very clever bit of marketing. 137 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: So people look at them and they go, oh, water relief, 138 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: it's got that recycling logo on, and I can drink 139 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: this without in the environment, and we're drinking and pop 140 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: it in that bin over there and know that it's 141 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: going to go back and be reused. And again that's 142 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: a fallacy and one of the things people need to 143 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: become aware of is that we can't, unfortunately, protect ourselves 144 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: and the environment from the impacts of plastic through recycling, 145 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: and that's because of the chemicals in them, and it's 146 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: also because of the tiny fragments that break down from 147 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: them over time. And we're learning more and more, but 148 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: those signed fragments are getting into us and they bioaccumulating, 149 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: So basically we can't get released little particles and we're 150 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: getting more and more into our bodies. 151 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: I want to talk a little more about the specifics 152 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: of the treaty in a second, but before we get there, 153 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: can you speak to me about the health impacts of 154 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: these plastics, particularly microplastics. You know, as you mentioned, we 155 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: do hear a lot about plastics polluting the oceans. We 156 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: have that, you know, the pollution that we can see 157 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: and the understanding of its place in the environment. But 158 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: what health risks does all of this pose to the 159 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: average person? 160 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, thinking about plastic kicks of two main constituents, 161 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: which is the first one is the backbone. The polyme 162 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: backbone is made from oil and gas, so essentially plastic 163 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: is petrol. So not many people realize that. So the 164 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: main part of the plastic material that you're holding a 165 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: single use, single use plastics ninety act centum are made 166 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: from oil and gas, but any type of plastic will 167 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: have that type of petrol backbone essentially. And then there 168 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: are all these additional additives I mentioned before included into 169 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: the plastic to give it its characteristic depending on what 170 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: it's trying to do. So things like PFAS, which has 171 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: been in the media a lot lately, forever chemicals, ye, 172 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: forever chemicals exactly. But another one which most people don't 173 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: really know about, something called a phthalate, which is basically 174 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: these classic chemicals that we know are endocrime disrupting chemicals, 175 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: and what that means is they essentially alter our body's 176 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: natural hormone system. So these chemicals are getting included into 177 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: that oil and gas backbone that I mentioned before, with 178 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: very little transparency on the reporting as well. So when 179 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: these plastics are made, we often don't know what's in 180 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: the plastic. But what we're now learning, which is probably 181 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: the most concerning component of all this, is that the 182 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: plastic particles are breaking down to these tiny fragments, to 183 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: what we call a microplastic, which is essentially smaller than 184 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: half a centimeter, but they can go right down to 185 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: the size of something like a human blood cell or 186 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: smaller than your human hair, so you wouldn't actually see 187 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: these particles in the environment. So they're essentially every wedding, 188 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: and so a lot of research in the last two 189 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: to three years has come out looking at both how 190 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: they accumulate in our bodies so they get in and 191 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: they don't leave. But we've just done a review last 192 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: year looking at what are the health effects of these 193 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: microplastic particles. It's been tricky to study, so you know 194 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: a lot of authoritative bodies around the world have to 195 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: regulate chemicals using animal studies because that's all we have. 196 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: And what we found across large number of animal studies 197 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: were these really consistent effects in the respiratory, digestive and 198 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: also reproductive system. So we saw the impact of fertility. 199 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: We also saw that increase these biological markers in our body, 200 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: things like chronic inflammation in both the lung and also 201 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: in the column. So we saw these suspected links to 202 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: these cancers. So we're starting to see more and more 203 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: evidence coming out to show that yeah, once these things 204 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: around our body, it makes sense they're oil and gas 205 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: and these chemicals I mentioned before they're going to lead 206 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: to a raft at health effects, which is the thing 207 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: that is probably most concerning. 208 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: When it comes to the treaty. I suppose there are 209 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: so many facets that you have mentioned as concern areas, 210 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 2: from transparency, through production to marketing. What are some of 211 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: the big sticking points or the disagreements between countries in 212 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: these negotiations, or between even kind trees versus health experts. 213 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, if that's interesting point about countries birth 214 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: health experts. At the moment, I think in Geneva, there's 215 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: three hundred and thirty five last estimates industry lobbyists fossil 216 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: fuel and chemical companies, and I think they're out numbering 217 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: academics at five to one, or scientists at five to one, 218 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: and you know, indigenous communities at ten to one. So yeah, 219 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: these negotiations are flooded by the invested interests of these 220 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: corporations that want to produce plastics. And the main sticking 221 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: point very simply is that a number of fossil fuel 222 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: producing countries is coalition of countries which now includes the 223 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: United States. They do not want to cap plastics production 224 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: very simply. You know, they don't want to stop extracting 225 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: oil and gas out of the ground. But if we 226 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: are going to be using it for energy and transport, 227 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: the world starts transitioning regards to what the United States 228 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: is currently doing, they need a new revenue stroom, and 229 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: plastics is the obvious one because they can argue that 230 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: we are relying on them in society and we have 231 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: become but it doesn't mean they're essential. So the very 232 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: simple takeaway at the moment is that they don't want 233 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: to cap plastic, and over one hundred and ten nations 234 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: at the moment do and that's essentially where the treaties 235 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 1: still lie. Can we get agreement on. 236 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: This if the influence of these manufacturers and lobbyists is 237 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: so intense, Is there a middle ground? Is there a 238 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: way to switch at scale for some change? 239 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is the tricky part. So one 240 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: of the I don't want to say critical flaws or flaws, 241 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: but the actual rules of procedure and how the treaty 242 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: is going to be finalized. There's been one of the 243 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: main issues with it. Essentially, these countries are saying that 244 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: it needs to be a consensus so everyone has the 245 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: route and the draft rules of procedure actually allow for 246 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: what they call a qualified majority voting when consensus fails. So, 247 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: in other words, if you can't get consensus, can we 248 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: get a majority of votes to essentially move the treaty 249 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: language forward and start finalizing something that is legally binding. 250 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: Because at the moment this is the fifth meeting, it 251 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: was actually meant to be the final meaning back in 252 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: November last year, and again language could not be finalized 253 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: because there was a consensus. So what may happen here 254 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: is that there is you know, this country is just 255 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: won't agree to consensus and they are also with their 256 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: recognize this idea of a qualified majority voting if it 257 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: does take place. So what may need to happen is 258 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: the countries that are say, look, we want to we 259 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: want to come up with a global plan on how 260 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: we redgise plastics. Is it they essentially develop it, and 261 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: they're going to have to try to do that, you know, 262 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: with those those countries removed from the process, because otherwise 263 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: just nothing will take playing some fortunate we are just 264 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: going to be in this essentially a whole wind pattern. 265 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 2: What role is Australia playing in these negotiations? Are we 266 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: leading or lagging with the pack? And how does that 267 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: take into our own plastics manufacturing here. 268 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, Australia at the 269 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: moment is in alignment with the idea that there needs 270 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: to be reduction in plastic production. So in Australia is 271 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: supporting this idea that we don't want, that we should 272 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: be trying to catch to a sustainable level. It's a 273 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: little bit vague in terms of I guess you know 274 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: what our complete commitment is, and we certainly can still 275 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: do a lot more back in Australia immediately as well. 276 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no reason why we don't immediately ban 277 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: on essential plastics since you use plastics in Australia. There's 278 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: lots we can do that current environment, which is important 279 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: and we're not a huge global player. But I mean 280 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: the fact that we are supporting a reduction in plastic 281 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: I think is important. 282 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: What are some of the key points that you think 283 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: belong in a successful treaty? What would be your kind 284 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: of priority areas for the most urgent things that if 285 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: you could change tomorrow you would enact. 286 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the obvious one, as we've talked about, 287 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: is capping. This keeps me up at night. Because I 288 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: don't think people fully understand how much this is going 289 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: to impact generations to come, particularly if you have children, 290 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: which I do. Even if we start to cap plastics, 291 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: and if we move towards reducing the volume, the amount 292 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: that's already in the environment, this is the really scary 293 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: but we can't get it out. It's in everything, It's 294 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: in every type of soil sediment. The particles are so 295 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: small in the ocean, they're already in our body, and 296 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: so that for me, is probably the most concerning piece. 297 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: But we do need to take action, and so capping 298 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: is absolutely critical to this, and there's a need to 299 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: look immediately at non essential materials. So just very simply 300 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: what is not critical for society to function. A critical 301 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: piece of material may be something like a medical device, 302 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: but even still there may be alternative materials that could 303 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: be used. The second thing is chemicals. You mentioned chemicals before. 304 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: We already have a list of four thousand knowe toxic 305 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: chemicals in plastics is about sixteen thousand that have been identified, 306 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: and so we need to bound those immediately being used 307 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: because once they're into the plastic, as I mentioned before, 308 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: we can't recycle those plastics. If those toxic chemicals are 309 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: in there or it's incredibly difficult to do that. So essentially, 310 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: once they're put in, we know that they're going to 311 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: end up in landfill. And there needs to be global 312 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: implementation of databasic chemicals that are identified as toxic, similar 313 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: to the stock Own convention where they just get banned, 314 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: we can't use them. So that's the second thing when 315 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: it's bound these toxic chemicals. A third thing is the 316 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: transparency around it. It needs to be reporting. So when 317 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: plastics are made, we need to know what's in them. 318 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: Currently we have very little idea of how many added 319 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: into these plastics. And then finally, how are we going 320 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: to pay for all this and implement it? And this 321 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: is critical, this is happening. This is an issue, a 322 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: key issue with a lot of environmental catastrophes, similar to pafas, 323 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: where we have manufacturers and producers of these chemicals and 324 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: these environmental contaminants that essentially externalize the costs. So what 325 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: do I mean by that is they can make it, 326 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: they make it a very cheap price, and then they 327 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: sell it. We consume it, but then we pay for 328 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: the health implications, both human health and environmental and so 329 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: we're burdened with the ongoing impact and costs of these products, 330 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: even when we know that they're toxic low we do 331 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: now at plastics, So it's critical. It's really critical that 332 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: the implementation of a tree, but also just moving forward 333 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: globally in terms of how we remediate and how we 334 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: reduce the impact or repair the impact of these contaminants 335 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: is that we put the burden back on the pluta. 336 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: So the fossil full industry is the petrochemical companies and 337 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: the plastic companies that are making these need to bear 338 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: the costs for the impact that it calls into the environment. 339 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: So capping plastic, removing toxic chemicals, increasing transparency on what's 340 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: going into them, and making the pluters pay for this 341 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: have been the four main things I'd want to see 342 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: in this treet you. 343 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 2: My last question for you, I think for individuals and 344 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: as young people much of our audience are young Australians, 345 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: it can feel a little bit hopeless or overwhelming when 346 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: we consider these ongoing negotiations. You know, a bunch of 347 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 2: faceless suits at a table overseas trying to determine ways 348 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 2: around this. What can we do or can we do 349 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: anything to actually make a difference beyond just recycling. As 350 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 2: you've mentioned, that's its own flawed beast. What would your 351 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: advice be. 352 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: Put it on the ballot. We know that civil action 353 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: and engagement around an issue can lead to change because 354 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: there are a lot of community action groups out there 355 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: at the moment on this, and also consumer action will 356 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: lead to a lot of manufacturers changing. People can talk 357 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: to their local members. We need to ensure that governments 358 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: know that this is something that potentially could lead to 359 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: their position in parliament changing. There is an opportunity for 360 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: people to get around this as an idea and to 361 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: get governments to start responding in a timely way, because 362 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: if we wait thirty years and plastic production triples, the 363 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: amount of plastic that's going to be in this world 364 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: and this environment's going to be near and possible to remove. 365 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: The idea is not to scare people. I think it's 366 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: important for people to be aware of what's happening. It's 367 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: a difficult concept to understand, and we've all been misinformed 368 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: about recycling idea that we can take care of it 369 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,959 Speaker 1: through that process and we simply can't. But we can 370 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: take action, and certainly I think people may informed. It's 371 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: more important than you're not having that information to make 372 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: your own decisions. 373 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: Nick, thank you so much for your time, fascinating and terrifying, 374 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: and we will keep an eye on all the developments 375 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: out of these negotiations. 376 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: Thanks you Ta, such a fascinating chat there. Thank you 377 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: so much to doctor Nicholas Charters for that chat, and 378 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 3: to Emma for doing that amazing interview. And thank you 379 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: so much for listening to this episode of The Daily Os. 380 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 3: We'll be back this evening with your evening headlines, but 381 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 3: until then, have a great day. 382 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda 383 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily Os acknowledges 384 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 385 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 386 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 387 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.