Speaker 1: Good day, Peter, Helly here, welcome to you Ain't Seen
Speaker 1: Nothing Yet, the Movie podcast, where I chat to a
Speaker 1: movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they haven't
Speaker 1: quite got around to watching until now.
Speaker 2: And today's guests my Project co host Wali Dali.
Speaker 3: Do you really think you have a chance against us?
Speaker 3: Mister cowboy? Open the pod bay doors, Hell.
Speaker 4: I'll have what she's having.
Speaker 2: Happening, right, You ain't.
Speaker 5: Seen nothing here?
Speaker 1: Now. This is the third time Why Lead has been
Speaker 1: on the show, so I'm not going to bang on
Speaker 1: about everything he's done. He's very well accomplished, he's very smart,
Speaker 1: and he sits next to me on a TV show
Speaker 1: called The Project. He does heaps of stuff. He's a
Speaker 1: super bloke, as smart as they come and as considerate.
Speaker 2: Now, last time while he was on the show, he
Speaker 2: went through more of his favorite films.
Speaker 1: He issued me a challenge, and that challenge was for
Speaker 1: him to return to talk about the movie we're talking
Speaker 1: about today.
Speaker 2: That I needed to.
Speaker 1: Watch a movie called Four Lions that he loves and
Speaker 1: he wanted me to watch it so we could talk
Speaker 1: about it. So not only are you getting the third
Speaker 1: installment of the original Star Wars, trilogy beginning also a conversation.
Speaker 2: About a fantastic comedy in Four Lions.
Speaker 1: So, of course I'm bloody stoke to be hanging out
Speaker 1: with Walid again today.
Speaker 5: Hi, I'm regular guest williad Ali, and I'm here to
Speaker 5: complete my Star Wars training because up until last night,
Speaker 5: I had never seen Return of the Jedi.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's the.
Speaker 1: Movie that made trilogies a thing, nineteen eighty seven's conclusion
Speaker 1: to the greatest space saga of all time, Unless, of course,
Speaker 1: they find a way to make more movies based on
Speaker 1: this galaxy far far away.
Speaker 2: I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Speaker 1: After the iconic climax of nineteen eighty three's The Empire
Speaker 1: Strikes Back, George Lucas puts the little known director Richard
Speaker 1: Marquand in the controls that bring this baby home, we
Speaker 1: find our heroes out on Tatooine in the fame Jabada
Speaker 1: Hut's palace, with Hans Solo frozen in carbonite, Luke growing
Speaker 1: into his big boy Jedi robes, and Princess Layer wearing
Speaker 1: a slinky for a bikini. Yep, she's a snug as
Speaker 1: a bug on a slug. Return of the Jedi waste
Speaker 1: no time dishing up e Wok thrills and Sarlac spills
Speaker 1: with daring escapes, comic relief, twists and turns, and Luke
Speaker 1: getting some Daddy closure. Return of the Jedi remains a
Speaker 1: much loved member of the Star Wars Library. Wale Nally,
Speaker 1: have you ever passed someone passionately only to find.
Speaker 2: Out later that you were related?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 2: No, no, no. To be honest, this is an open.
Speaker 5: Space at the time that he was my brother.
Speaker 2: What happens in Rabina's days in.
Speaker 5: Definitely not a Rabbino Mitchell. I just want to clarify, See,
Speaker 5: I didn't I didn't know any of this. You're referring,
Speaker 5: of course, to the fact that I assume everyone listening
Speaker 5: to this nose. But I didn't until last night that
Speaker 5: the Skywalker and Princess lera brother and sister.
Speaker 1: Right at the end of our discussion of Empire strikes back.
Speaker 1: I because I thought at the end of Empire, maybe
Speaker 1: because I've seen it so many times obviously, and I
Speaker 1: know what happens. I hinted, and I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: you kind of read my mind or read the situation
Speaker 1: that I kind of thought i'd given away that Luke
Speaker 1: and lay were sisters, siblings, So I wasn't sure you're
Speaker 1: going into this what you have either remembered from our
Speaker 1: chat or what you had retained or knew.
Speaker 2: So at the.
Speaker 5: Time, did I look like you told me something, that
Speaker 5: there was something?
Speaker 1: There was a little bit of like what well, and
Speaker 1: I think maybe I tried to shut it down a
Speaker 1: little bit and go, well, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know you.
Speaker 5: Either shut it down successfully or my memory completely let
Speaker 5: go home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean stuff has happened because we've done a
Speaker 1: season in between. Yeah, you so welcome back, Thank you.
Speaker 2: You watched this last night?
Speaker 5: I did. Yeah, I did watch it last night quite late.
Speaker 1: I like Tish earlier for you know, you're often l
Speaker 1: writing columns and yeah, that's doing your thing gaming grand
Speaker 1: theft or grand you love a bit of grand theft,
Speaker 1: auto nothing jumping and stealing it. But yeah, I can't.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I watched it last night. And where do
Speaker 5: you want me to begin? Because there's so many ways
Speaker 5: I feel like it's it's a really interesting film.
Speaker 1: It is, so I don't want to know exactly what
Speaker 1: you thought of it right now. In fact, there are
Speaker 1: conditions of you returning. That's true, there was a term
Speaker 1: and a condition. Should we tidy this up first, Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's tard you that first. So I did mention an
Speaker 1: intro your your six favorite films. But I think last
Speaker 1: time we spoke, there was a film that you mentioned
Speaker 1: we spoke about briefly called Four Lines, that you were
Speaker 1: a big fan of, a comedy. I hadn't seen it.
Speaker 1: I was certainly aware of it. It kind of made
Speaker 1: a bit of noise upon release. It involves for suicide Bombers,
Speaker 1: released in twenty ten, and.
Speaker 5: I hadn't seen it.
Speaker 1: As a lot of clarifications happening very early in today's episode.
Speaker 1: So you said to me, I will come back and
Speaker 1: do a Return of the Jedi as long as you
Speaker 1: watch Four Lines, and we can talk about that.
Speaker 5: Because I couldn't think of three more films.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I mean, you know, I do wonder the more.
Speaker 1: Luke McGregor is the only one who's done the three
Speaker 1: three Godfathers, and he he came up with another three films.
Speaker 1: But I do wonder the more why you start getting
Speaker 1: into double digits?
Speaker 5: What is it? Exactly? It was.
Speaker 1: Just films you've seen, So what do you think I
Speaker 1: watched four Lines last night, and I loved it, and
Speaker 1: I am embarrassed I haven't I hadn't seen it because
Speaker 1: I certainly was aware of it. I had tried to
Speaker 1: watch it once and I think I was either tight
Speaker 1: or not in the mood. It wasn't because I wasn't
Speaker 1: enjoying it. But I I think, well, of the times
Speaker 1: you watch a movie, can think what am I doing
Speaker 1: watching a movie?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 1: This is I haven't got time for this. Either I'm
Speaker 1: tired or I've got you know, literally having good time.
Speaker 1: So and I have tried to go back and watch
Speaker 1: it again, but it was tricky to find. Actually, in fact,
Speaker 1: it's I had to buy it on Apple and yeah,
Speaker 1: so it is, it's not everywhere online. I really I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. So twenty ten, I mean you have
Speaker 1: to put it in the perspective as well. This is
Speaker 1: this context of it, the context.
Speaker 2: Of doing this movie.
Speaker 1: And obviously movies don't get made, you know, from from
Speaker 1: a from conception of an idea to scripting, and so
Speaker 1: they would have who knows when they started working on
Speaker 1: who knows when the idea was born.
Speaker 5: London bombings are the Tube bombings are two thousand and
Speaker 5: five thousand and five, so it's entirely possible. And that
Speaker 5: was actually remember that was the birth of homegrown terrorism
Speaker 5: as a popular concept because up and there, up until then,
Speaker 5: nine to eleven was the big thing.
Speaker 2: And I was thinking about through the nine to eleven
Speaker 2: prison if.
Speaker 5: You like, yeah, I think it's more than London bombings.
Speaker 1: So you reckon the idea maybe Kingdom and post London bombing, Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think that's well, that's the thing that makes it relevant, yes,
Speaker 5: like as the touchstones relevant. Yeah, because because nine to
Speaker 5: eleven is people coming from overseas. You know, there's an
Speaker 5: Egyptian guy, there's Saudi guys. They come, they learned the flyplanes,
Speaker 5: but not land them. They do all that stuff, get
Speaker 5: through the security system, turn the planes into weapons, et cetera.
Speaker 5: But that's still someone from outside coming. It's execute a
Speaker 5: terror attack then Bali, Well it's Indonesians, there's a local
Speaker 5: terrorst cell. It's not the Western world, so we expect
Speaker 5: there are different sort of things to play. London was
Speaker 5: like Madrid again, like cells across heroe al Qaeda's involvement
Speaker 5: directly someone London happens and it just changes everything because
Speaker 5: everyone was like hang on, these are these are homegrown lads,
Speaker 5: with maybe one exception, but these were homegrown lads, most
Speaker 5: of whom had nothing remotely to do with They went
Speaker 5: in ol Kainda training camps in Afghanistan, everything like that's
Speaker 5: not that kind of.
Speaker 1: Thing, totally into British pop culture and everything.
Speaker 5: And it changed the whole terrorism conversation because it made
Speaker 5: it now a domestic issue rather than an international issue. Right,
Speaker 5: the war in Iraq had started by this time, the
Speaker 5: war in Afghanistan had started by this time. Because you remember,
Speaker 5: when nine to eleven happens, we're all like the United
Speaker 5: States especially and then US following their leader, like well,
Speaker 5: we're going to go bomb Afghanistan to take out al
Speaker 5: Kada's infrastructure, and we're going to we're going to bomb
Speaker 5: Iraq because well, let's just bomby rack and so we
Speaker 5: do all this, right, but that's all because we're seeing
Speaker 5: it as international problem. We can bomb this thing out
Speaker 5: of existence. But once it's it becomes a social problem,
Speaker 5: then it's completely different scenario.
Speaker 2: I laughed so many times.
Speaker 1: There was a moment where they and this, you know,
Speaker 1: this the idea that these these are English lads in
Speaker 1: the way like, you know, they have obviously cultural ties.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure they're from their families are
Speaker 1: all from the same country, but they're they're they're English.
Speaker 5: It's all the subcontinent, like so that that Pakistani Indian
Speaker 5: migrant community dominates East London, right, and I have those
Speaker 5: East London South Asian accents.
Speaker 1: And I laughed so much when they cut to a
Speaker 1: shot they've got the van and then they all of
Speaker 1: a sudden they're singing, dancing to the moonlight's and because
Speaker 1: what what it's really kind of powerful in doing is
Speaker 1: like we think of these terror cells existing almost in
Speaker 1: a in a movie universe where there they're masterminds and
Speaker 1: there this is almost always going to this is what
Speaker 1: they were born for, and this is what they've been
Speaker 1: training all their lives for. And it's slick, and it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's like a you know, a bond
Speaker 1: is a bond gone, you know, esponage kind of all
Speaker 1: on to it. But these are just like plunkers who
Speaker 1: not even sure of the reasons why they're doing incompetent,
Speaker 1: still kind of engaged with with, you know, and probably
Speaker 1: still have a love of Britain even if they won't
Speaker 1: actually admit that themselves. I don't really know who the
Speaker 1: targets are supposed to be.
Speaker 2: How how is that?
Speaker 1: Do you think that's purely comedic or do you think
Speaker 1: that exists, you know with a lot of people who
Speaker 1: get you know, it's.
Speaker 5: A really good question. I don't think it's purely comedic actually,
Speaker 5: because it does happen, right, like we observed it with
Speaker 5: the London Bombers, the the culturally British. Culturally that's that's
Speaker 5: what they are. Politically it's different, but culturally they are.
Speaker 5: Is it in four lines? Because you know the film
Speaker 5: better than me now because I haven't seen it for ages,
Speaker 5: But were they debating their favorite footballer?
Speaker 2: Oh? They they had so many little debates. It was
Speaker 2: so really funny any the shore.
Speaker 5: But I feel like David Beckham probably got to mention like, yeah,
Speaker 5: that sort of stuff that that's got common. You get
Speaker 5: you look in the biography these people and actually no, they.
Speaker 1: Had someone Bin Laden was like a massive Whitney Houston fan,
Speaker 1: like yeah, like Kim Jong Kim Jong Earl like and
Speaker 1: and and yeah even before Kim Jong on was a
Speaker 1: massive like massively he thought Bond was the Bond films
Speaker 1: were like part basically documentary, Like he fell in love
Speaker 1: with this idea of espionage being so that he got
Speaker 1: into but he started making propaganda films. He was a filmmaker,
Speaker 1: Kim Jong's sorry, and and he he would honestly believe that,
Speaker 1: and he liked he liked Michael Bay style films, you know.
Speaker 1: And there's an amazing story that's been listening to about
Speaker 1: him and apping this really famous South Korean actress and
Speaker 1: the South Korean director who had been married and then separated,
Speaker 1: and he set up a meeting like in might in
Speaker 1: Hong Kong or in South Korea, actually in South Korea,
Speaker 1: and then basically the actress, I think it's just the
Speaker 1: actress at that stage arrived this meeting on an empty
Speaker 1: beach and no one who was there, and then she
Speaker 1: just heard these humm of these boats coming from the
Speaker 1: ocean and there was these two speedboats.
Speaker 2: They bundled into the speedboats. They took it back over
Speaker 2: there for like six years.
Speaker 5: Which sounds like a Bond film. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But he was as obsessive you know, American pop
Speaker 1: culture and pop culture in general.
Speaker 2: But so you got to forget that.
Speaker 1: They have all these influences that yeah, contradicts totally.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's like, they are human beings. I know that
Speaker 5: they're doing something in human and the way we discussed
Speaker 5: them in the media and like via news and in
Speaker 5: politics is to remove any sense that they're human beings
Speaker 5: from the conversation. And I can understand why that happens,
Speaker 5: but it's not correct. They are they are still human beings,
Speaker 5: and so they are there's all these sort of weird
Speaker 5: this weird we would regard it as weird. Maybe it's
Speaker 5: actually not that weird. But they if they grow up
Speaker 5: in the UK, then you can expect that they're going
Speaker 5: to be inflected by British culture, especially because what's really
Speaker 5: common among people who become radicalized is not like it's
Speaker 5: actually rare that they went to an Islamic school, were
Speaker 5: religious their whole lives, and then sort of the zenith
Speaker 5: of their religious development was to strap on a suicide
Speaker 5: bomber's vest. That's really rare. The story is much more
Speaker 5: common and was common was there amongst the London bombers,
Speaker 5: is that they had no completely irreligiou they're out getting
Speaker 5: drunk or whatever, like all these things that are completely
Speaker 5: inimicable inimical to Islamic life, and then they have a
Speaker 5: sort of sudden conversion to religious zelotry, and so they
Speaker 5: get attracted to the most extreme form of it because
Speaker 5: that's a common thing. That's this pendulum effect that you
Speaker 5: get when you go from one thing to its opposite, right,
Speaker 5: So actually that's a really common thing. So of course
Speaker 5: they would have been steeped in popular culture, and they
Speaker 5: probably had a favorite beer if you ask them, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean. But we don't ask them, of course,
Speaker 5: and in the case of suicide wrong as you can't.
Speaker 5: But those sort of things do emerge from their biographies,
Speaker 5: like when you start reading the biographies after the media
Speaker 5: has lost interest. That's the sort of stuff that sort
Speaker 5: of turns up. So to come back to your question
Speaker 5: about the film, I don't I mean, I don't know
Speaker 5: what their intentions were, but it's clearly comedic. But I
Speaker 5: don't think it's just comedic. I think they're making an
Speaker 5: observation that is that is true or at least rooted.
Speaker 1: In because imagine, also, if you are going to make
Speaker 1: this film at the time period when it was made,
Speaker 1: you want to get some things right. You know you
Speaker 1: can't and this is funny enough. There's so like it
Speaker 1: is laugh out loud funny.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in a very English way, right, a very English
Speaker 5: comedy film.
Speaker 2: Yes. Like, there's a scene where and I encourage you
Speaker 2: to watch it.
Speaker 1: Obviously you can maybe skip ahead a little bit if
Speaker 1: if you don't, I want to check it out before
Speaker 1: you talk about too much.
Speaker 2: Where there's like a council meeting to discuss you.
Speaker 1: Know, probably Islamophobia, I guess, and a guy a guy
Speaker 1: jumps up, does like a two pack kind of rap,
Speaker 1: and then and then reveals he's got a bomb strapped
Speaker 1: to him, and then he says the things they say
Speaker 1: before he you know, he presses the button and like
Speaker 1: streamers and glitter basically pop out, and everyone's because everyone's yeah,
Speaker 1: I kind of like Winston.
Speaker 2: Then and he goes, oh, what you think.
Speaker 1: There's a Muslim, which is hilarious because he's got to
Speaker 1: what looks like a bomb strap to him and he
Speaker 1: just said he's about to blow everybody up. But now,
Speaker 1: because I'm Muslim, you thought I was gonna do it.
Speaker 5: And that's one of the things about a feel like
Speaker 5: that is it cuts in multiple directions, right, It's you know,
Speaker 5: that's partly I think having a dig at people who
Speaker 5: will claim everything this homophobia. Yes, ye, yes, at the
Speaker 5: same time as the film is kind of in a
Speaker 5: way lampooing the seriousness that the you know, the criminal
Speaker 5: mastermind element of the way we sort of manufacture these figures,
Speaker 5: these characters as you know, the terrorst cell, when actually
Speaker 5: often it's not like that at all. So I think
Speaker 5: that's what makes it an interesting film. I'm not an
Speaker 5: enormous fan of hugely didactic films that kind of like,
Speaker 5: all right, here's the position and we're gonna hammy with
Speaker 5: it over and over and you know, until you submit
Speaker 5: to the politics or the the you know, the view
Speaker 5: that we're trying to. I much prefer these sorts of
Speaker 5: films where they're they actually got something to say to
Speaker 5: everybody and we're all laughing, and in it we can
Speaker 5: all think a little bit about ourselves.
Speaker 2: And you can go this. Could you could watch this
Speaker 2: film and have a laugh and keep it at that.
Speaker 5: Yes, definitely, because it's genuinely like it stands up just
Speaker 5: as a.
Speaker 2: College it is so funny.
Speaker 1: But you can also also, and I'll challenge you to
Speaker 1: baby watch you know that the third act and not
Speaker 1: be feeling, you know, feeling something.
Speaker 5: It's a bit tragic at the end, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Riz Armed he's the ringleader and he is
Speaker 1: just absolutely they're all. It's a uniformly brilliant cast. It
Speaker 1: was written I did know by Jesse Armstrong, who is
Speaker 1: man behind Succession, and Christopher Morris who did something like
Speaker 1: The Day to Day and these great you know, sat High,
Speaker 1: so it's got and also behind Veep, and some of
Speaker 1: those writing staff worked on Veep.
Speaker 2: But also the thick of it, so it's got that you.
Speaker 5: Can sense that actually, well I didn't know that to
Speaker 5: you set up, but as soon as you say, you go, yeah, thats.
Speaker 2: And I didn't know. I looked it up.
Speaker 1: I knew Christopher Maris had been involved, and also men
Speaker 1: called Sambaye. I mean, it's funny because we both loved
Speaker 1: the film. But I'll ask you, is it an issue
Speaker 1: that there wasn't I don't think any of those men
Speaker 1: are Muslim?
Speaker 2: Does that matter?
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter to me. I mean, I mean this
Speaker 5: gets into a massacre.
Speaker 1: And I have no idea that if they if they consulted,
Speaker 1: if they did all those things.
Speaker 5: And I suspect that just because again, I've watched it
Speaker 5: for a long time, but I have no memory of
Speaker 5: watching it. And I know a lot of Muslims that
Speaker 5: watched it because it was very popular amongst Muslims for
Speaker 5: reasons I'll explain this sect. It's just actually interesting how
Speaker 5: it was popular. But I don't know anyone amongst the
Speaker 5: Muslim community who watched it and was like, oh, for
Speaker 5: God's sake, I've got that wrong. And yeah, there's none
Speaker 5: of that in there, at least that I remember, And
Speaker 5: like I said, don't remember having conversations like that. So
Speaker 5: then you get into this thing, which I think the
Speaker 5: Devil's a lot of the you know, the discussion about
Speaker 5: representation and all this sort of stuff that I think,
Speaker 5: you know, the way I end up looking at these
Speaker 5: things is I'm not actually that interested in representation in
Speaker 5: some kind of mathematical or accounting sense of as if
Speaker 5: there's a Muslim character, for example, I don't need that person,
Speaker 5: the actor, to be a Muslim who's playing that character.
Speaker 5: All I care about is is it a good portrayal? Right,
Speaker 5: So you know, Morgod Freeman played a Muslim in Robin
Speaker 5: Hood right with the Kevin Costa one, And I remember
Speaker 5: that distinctly because I was probably grade five at the
Speaker 5: time and I just never seen a Muslim character that
Speaker 5: wasn't a terrorist before in a film, and I was like,
Speaker 5: oh wow, And it was interesting because he was the
Speaker 5: Wislim character who came from a more advanced civilization. They had,
Speaker 5: you know, they'd mastered optics and all these He was
Speaker 5: giving him a telescope and Robin Hood's like, what's this
Speaker 5: and all this sort of stuff. So that's why that
Speaker 5: stuck with me. I had no problem with Margod Freeman
Speaker 5: playing that character, and the portrayal was a good portrayal.
Speaker 5: I did have a problem and I can't even remember
Speaker 5: if it's Robin Hood someone else. I think it might
Speaker 5: be Robin Hood, But like where they cut to a
Speaker 5: shot of like a group of Muslims praying together, and
Speaker 5: it's like, that's not how that works. You don't stand there,
Speaker 5: what are they doing? Who thought this? Was like, you know,
Speaker 5: it's always like someone who had never ever seen a
Speaker 5: congregational prayer had just decided to imagine what one might
Speaker 5: look like and chuck it on the screen. That annoys me,
Speaker 5: not in a way that's going to make me, you know,
Speaker 5: join social media and start a hashtag about it. But
Speaker 5: like that annoys me. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: don't need to go through a list of writers or
Speaker 5: actors or directors and say where's your where's your Muslim there?
Speaker 5: That's that's kind of beside the point.
Speaker 1: I mean, and a smart collection of man who wrote this.
Speaker 1: I can only imagine some of the black Well Walls
Speaker 1: and this addition of writing. He's involved in some of
Speaker 1: those shows as well. And the fact is, I'd be
Speaker 1: shocked if the cast didn't have little inputs of it.
Speaker 2: They totally along the way I.
Speaker 1: Mean is so I said, it's uniformly great. There's a
Speaker 1: fantastic scene before they're about to go on there on
Speaker 1: their mission, and there is one of the characters. I
Speaker 1: think it's Hassan's. You know, he's the thickest I think
Speaker 1: he says, he's almost thickest fudge, and he he doesn't
Speaker 1: really know why he's doing this. He's basically just going
Speaker 1: along with it and maybe you know everything. Then he
Speaker 1: raises doubts, and he raised these doubts before they go
Speaker 1: on on their final mission, and Omar says, well, what
Speaker 1: does your what does your heart say? And he says,
Speaker 1: because he says, is this wrong? I was just right?
Speaker 1: I was this wrong? I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 1: I might be wrong. Is listen to your heart? What
Speaker 1: does your heart say? He goes, well, my heart says
Speaker 1: it's wrong. And he goes, well, listen to your brain.
Speaker 1: What does your brain say? He goes, well, my brain
Speaker 1: says that we're here and and we're all like ready,
Speaker 1: and it would be a bit of a dog act
Speaker 1: to kind of pull out now these He goes, well,
Speaker 1: switch switch what they've done. They've put your heart where
Speaker 1: your brain is, so switch those two things. And then
Speaker 1: the other Bolk's kind of saying Barry's kind to say, well,
Speaker 1: listen to your brain.
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, just whatever is going to give
Speaker 5: you the answer that I've got.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then and then the final act that well,
Speaker 1: you know, is them going on this mission, which gets
Speaker 1: you know, obviously goes pair shaped in various ways, and
Speaker 1: and he's got a tragic again when it is a
Speaker 1: tragic again and he but they're running around and this
Speaker 1: is the English element to it. They're running around because
Speaker 1: it's the London Fun Run. They're running around and these
Speaker 1: ridiculous outfits like the one if you've seen The Office
Speaker 1: where where the red Nose day and David Brent rocks
Speaker 1: up and he's wearing the you know, the the EMU.
Speaker 2: Or the Ostrichia.
Speaker 1: He looks like he's writing an ostrich One of them
Speaker 1: is on that they're all in the ridiculous Yeah, which
Speaker 1: is kind of ones is that ninja turtle and Barries
Speaker 1: in a ninja turtle?
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: But there is a turning point where where kind of
Speaker 1: realizes that, you know, and it might be too late,
Speaker 1: that the things that this may not be the right thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the reality, Yeah, which had to I did find myself
Speaker 1: during it going how is this going? I was really
Speaker 1: fascinated by going how do you draw this to a close?
Speaker 1: Do they go through with the mission? Do they come
Speaker 1: to their senses beforehand? It is fascinating.
Speaker 5: It is a really interesting question. And you know, from
Speaker 5: my memory of it, they ended it perfectly, like they
Speaker 5: really threaded the needle and in a way that made
Speaker 5: it more than just a comedy like that that we
Speaker 5: don't want to give out away what's tragic about the end,
Speaker 5: but it really is. And you look at this and
Speaker 5: you go, what a waste?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's it was one of the purest messages
Speaker 1: about this whole thing, isn't it?
Speaker 5: Yeah and waste And that's actually one of the saddest
Speaker 5: things about the real world phenomenon is I mean, there's
Speaker 5: the obvious tragedy, which is the tragedy that we all
Speaker 5: talk about, but then there's the you know, the feeling
Speaker 5: for the families of the people who you know, they're
Speaker 5: dealing with, how did I have a kid who got
Speaker 5: messed up, like mixed up in this sort of thing,
Speaker 5: and like where did I go wrong? And all this
Speaker 5: sort of thing, But also like this didn't need this
Speaker 5: didn't need to happen, and now we've just got to
Speaker 5: pick up the pieces of all this for what for what?
Speaker 5: There's so yeah, it's I think it's just it's quite
Speaker 5: richly subtle in that way, and the things that picks
Speaker 5: up at the same time as it just never seems
Speaker 5: to compromise.
Speaker 2: On the comedy of it.
Speaker 5: It's brilliantly done. I just had a thought about the
Speaker 5: representation stuff as you were talking then, And the other
Speaker 5: aspect of it is there's a very particular community that
Speaker 5: this is based in, which is that sort of South
Speaker 5: Asian the second generation of our South Asian Muslim migrant
Speaker 5: community in London. And that's not even a thing that
Speaker 5: let's say, you know, I was one of the writers
Speaker 5: or whatever, I wouldn't be really any more representative, right,
Speaker 5: because that's a particular like community with a particular experience
Speaker 5: and particular a particular way of speaking. And I might
Speaker 5: be more familiar with that way of speaking than say
Speaker 5: you are, because I'm exposed more to it or whatever,
Speaker 5: but I'm not. I'm not of it, right. The guys
Speaker 5: playing the roles on screen, they're probably of it. Yeah,
Speaker 5: And you can tell because the way they ifn just
Speaker 5: the way they deliver their lines. It's like, yeah, that's
Speaker 5: come from someone who knows what they're doing, like what
Speaker 5: they're saying, how these conversations work, et cetera. Everything about it,
Speaker 5: you know, even just the conversation about rubber dingy rapids.
Speaker 5: It's just it feels perfect. Yeah, Yeah, they really got
Speaker 5: it right.
Speaker 1: It didn't bother me at all, but I did kind
Speaker 1: of wonder I thought more of the writers sometimes. I
Speaker 1: think about the discussions in the writer's room.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And because we meet Omar and Barry and Baj and Hassan.
Speaker 5: Barry has to be there, by the way, is very important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it tells me that about because Barry, to my mind,
Speaker 1: was just like he's not connected culturally.
Speaker 5: No, he's the convert.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a convert. Yeah yeah, yeah, tell us about that.
Speaker 5: It's just an important story. It's just an important part
Speaker 5: of it because that too is paybe the zeal of
Speaker 5: the convert that I was talking about. You kind of
Speaker 5: have this mix within a lot of these sort of
Speaker 5: radical groups that are self starting radical groups, that's the
Speaker 5: thing they're not, you know, from established terrorist organizations whatever.
Speaker 5: This mix of what you could call really loosely internal
Speaker 5: and external converts, you know that people who came from
Speaker 5: being in a Muslim family or whatever but not really
Speaker 5: practicing or anything like that, and then the people who
Speaker 5: are just new to it and like they're not Muslims
Speaker 5: at all and they become Muslims. And there were just so
Speaker 5: many stories like that, right, and so the fact that
Speaker 5: they chose to put a convert there is so like
Speaker 5: it had to happen, like it really and also that
Speaker 5: is an important part of the mix of those communities.
Speaker 5: Like people. It might surprise people to hear this, but
Speaker 5: lots and lots of people convert to Islam in places
Speaker 5: like the UK and places like Australia. I know lots of.
Speaker 5: I'm married to one, I know, I know lots of.
Speaker 5: They are actually part of the community, and they find
Speaker 5: themselves in these environments where everyone, okay, suddenly everyone they
Speaker 5: knows Pakistani or whatever. It's the kind of culturally distant
Speaker 5: at the same time as they're like cultural, like they're
Speaker 5: culturally the majority, but they're they're religious minority now and
Speaker 5: they've kind of converted to a minority status. And it's
Speaker 5: a very particular experience, right, but it's it's a really
Speaker 5: important part of I think just about every Muslim community
Speaker 5: in the West, even in the US, and the US
Speaker 5: is slightly different because you've also got African Americanism versus migrants,
Speaker 5: and there's a whole different relationship there that I don't
Speaker 5: think there's any parallel of in Australia the UK. But
Speaker 5: but it's either either way. The convert presence is a
Speaker 5: really important presence.
Speaker 2: And he has almost he's the most fervent.
Speaker 5: Which is kind of the point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing that I wondered about in the writer's
Speaker 1: room was we meet these guys as they're making a video.
Speaker 1: You know, so they're they're they're already all in and
Speaker 1: it's very some of the stuff that's going on, it's
Speaker 1: very funny, but they're kind of committed to kind of
Speaker 1: doing something. But at this stage, and I so we
Speaker 1: don't see them become radicalized. I mean, they really work
Speaker 1: out what the point? At what point did they become radicalized?
Speaker 1: We see Omar at home with his wife and his kid,
Speaker 1: like reading bedtime stories to which is really great, Like,
Speaker 1: these are people living amongst us who are doing that's
Speaker 1: what humans human beings. Yeah, and they're reading which book
Speaker 1: is and talking about the Lion King and you know,
Speaker 1: and they're putting a lot of themes into the Lion King.
Speaker 1: And I just wonder if they discussed the idea of
Speaker 1: kind of going, okay, what we never really and like
Speaker 1: I just watched it last night, so I may watch
Speaker 1: it again and go, oh, there it is. But I
Speaker 1: never saw the point where we realize why Omar had
Speaker 1: gone down this this part.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's that's a fair point because I, yeah,
Speaker 5: my memory of it's a saying that that's not really explained.
Speaker 5: I think that might be for a couple of reasons.
Speaker 5: One is it would be hard to do that without
Speaker 5: it becoming a very different I agree, becomes a drama
Speaker 5: at that point. Yes, Whereas sometimes the best place to
Speaker 5: start in the story is in the middle of it.
Speaker 5: And if what you really want to do is talk
Speaker 5: about the dynamics, sort of the social dynamics and the
Speaker 5: sort of like shambalic nature of a lot of these
Speaker 5: sort of groupings, then you might be best to start
Speaker 5: with that formed and then you tease out some of
Speaker 5: the background or the psychology of these people through the
Speaker 5: story that unfolds, rather than through the history. But you're right,
Speaker 5: I can see why someone would say, well, I wanted
Speaker 5: to I want to know that. Yeah, but in some
Speaker 5: ways it's kind of good you don't know, because it's
Speaker 5: not entirely clear that they do exactly.
Speaker 1: And like I said, it didn't bother me at all.
Speaker 1: In fact, I was impressed they didn't lean on the
Speaker 1: sentimentality of the fact that he was I did have
Speaker 1: a kid at home, like there's not that scene and
Speaker 1: I may have I must say I was midtally very
Speaker 1: tired when I watched this, which actually is a credit
Speaker 1: to the movie, because I no doub would have finished it.
Speaker 1: Probably this morning but I really wanted to keep at it,
Speaker 1: and I still enjoyed it so very much. But I
Speaker 1: may have missed a couple of bits, but my mind
Speaker 1: I cannot certainly, because I watched the last kind of
Speaker 1: sequence again this morning. I want that there's a there's
Speaker 1: a version of this where he calls home and he's
Speaker 1: kid answers, you know. And I'm really glad that they
Speaker 1: didn't do that. Yeah, and we'll have been fine if
Speaker 1: they did. But I think it's impressive that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree, there was a certain I don't know
Speaker 5: what the word is. It's not really purity, but there's
Speaker 5: a there's a certain discipline, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to the way there.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good way of putting it, because
Speaker 1: they weren't making an emotional drama.
Speaker 2: No, they and it's it's it's.
Speaker 1: You know, three cheers for making a point, you know,
Speaker 1: I think some really good points with good themes by
Speaker 1: sticking with comedy and.
Speaker 5: Not over making them. That's that's the thing. And it
Speaker 5: was really interesting to me that it became such a
Speaker 5: popular film amongst Muslims at that time, because that's how
Speaker 5: I heard about it. It was just other Muslims saying, oh,
Speaker 5: you got to see this film. It's great or whatever.
Speaker 5: I know, it's one of Naseema's homes.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because I spoke on the ze so
Speaker 1: you you had said make sure you watch four You
Speaker 1: remind me you make sure you watch four King four lines.
Speaker 2: I say, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1: Watching it on Thursday night, and I swept them in
Speaker 1: the zeine. He rang on Thursday he's going to be
Speaker 1: a guest at the Grapes of Mirth festival in Adelaide.
Speaker 1: If you're there, he's going to be doing sideways. And
Speaker 1: he said, I said you again, Well, I guess you
Speaker 1: need to know your three favorite films. Yes, you need
Speaker 1: to know now. I said, no, no, no, no, just you
Speaker 1: tell me on the day. And he said, I'll just
Speaker 1: let you know one because you may not have seen
Speaker 1: its four lines. I said, that is bizarre, as because
Speaker 1: I'm literally watching that tonight.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that's the thing. It would there'd probably
Speaker 5: be a lot of Muslims who if you said give
Speaker 5: us you three that that would appear. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: if they were attuned to pop culture at that particular time,
Speaker 5: because it and they would probably all say the same thing. Oh,
Speaker 5: you might not have seen it, because I don't think
Speaker 5: it like it didn't become a pop culture smash or anything.
Speaker 2: No, it's a bit of a sort of cult film, but.
Speaker 5: Which is odd because the way it's made is very
Speaker 5: much a mainstream comedy. It's not like it's not like
Speaker 5: an art house or something like that that says, please
Speaker 5: let me be a cult film. It's not like that.
Speaker 5: But anyway, it was interesting that.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's dark.
Speaker 1: You explained it to somebody, it's a comedy about suicide bombers. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you can understand why people.
Speaker 2: Go, yeah, I'm not ready for that. All I need
Speaker 2: to be in the right frame of mind to watch
Speaker 2: out totally.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can understand that. But I think the reason
Speaker 5: was some seem to like it so much was like
Speaker 5: it was a really really hard period for people to
Speaker 5: live through, right, because it starts at nine to eleven
Speaker 5: and it just does not stop till probably it goes
Speaker 5: up and down a bit, but it probably lasts till
Speaker 5: like twenty seventeen. Maybe that's a long time, right. And
Speaker 5: it's heavy, and it feels like you become claustrophobic, Like
Speaker 5: it's almost like you walk outside and the air is
Speaker 5: just thick and it wants to surround you and everything's
Speaker 5: so serious and whatever. And then someone takes this thing
Speaker 5: that is the cause of that and turns it not
Speaker 5: into light relief that's not the right description, but lampoons
Speaker 5: it and at the same time reveals things that you've
Speaker 5: known but can never find the way to say, because
Speaker 5: you can't say any of the things the film is
Speaker 5: saying without i don't know, sounding off, sounding like you're
Speaker 5: I don't know, diminishing the gravity of terrorism or something
Speaker 5: like that. It just seemed to find It was like
Speaker 5: the exact balm that I think a lot of Muslims
Speaker 5: needed at that time, that spoke to their condition, their experience,
Speaker 5: the way life was for them, but in a way
Speaker 5: that it wasn't overly. It was light, it didn't have
Speaker 5: the way, it didn't have the heaviness about it. It's
Speaker 5: a master stroke, I think, to be able to do that,
Speaker 5: and the fact that Muslims responded that way, I think
Speaker 5: tells you how well it was executed, Like just just
Speaker 5: how authentically done. That's probably not the right word, but
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Yeah, there's something about it
Speaker 5: that it's it's telling a particular truth there.
Speaker 1: It'd be nice to see them now that you know
Speaker 1: the Western world, you know. I mean it's a British film,
Speaker 1: but you know, let's say, non Muslims, if you like Field,
Speaker 1: that enough time has passed, they're okay, they're comfortable enough
Speaker 1: to watch it. I hope it does find continues to
Speaker 1: find the audience and it has a second third life
Speaker 1: because it's it's it's just a really only filming.
Speaker 2: If you and if you love Veep and if.
Speaker 1: You love Succession and you know the day to day,
Speaker 1: you'll love this.
Speaker 5: Do you think there would be people who'd be offended
Speaker 5: by it?
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 5: Hard to be offended by it.
Speaker 1: This is a good film to demonstrate the difference between
Speaker 1: the message in the punchline, yeah right, you know, and
Speaker 1: Micky Gervais talks about a whole bunch and something he
Speaker 1: could go into I think even murky areas. But this
Speaker 1: is not laughing at this whole thing. No, it's actually
Speaker 1: making a point. And I think if you watched the
Speaker 1: whole film and get to the end, you it's unmistakable.
Speaker 2: Yeah the point they're making.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's I'm really glad you liked it.
Speaker 2: It's a film that I I'll revisit many times.
Speaker 5: It's probably the only film I've seen that you haven't.
Speaker 1: You got one, you got one in But there is
Speaker 1: another film we are here to talk about. If you
Speaker 1: have done your homework once again. You started this journey
Speaker 1: a few seasons ago with Episode one and New Hope
Speaker 1: into Empire Strikes Back, and now it is.
Speaker 2: The third of the trilogy Return.
Speaker 1: Of the Jedi nine to eighty seven, director by Richard Markuin,
Speaker 1: written by Lawrence Lawrence Kasden, Star Wars Legend, screenwriting Legend
Speaker 1: and story by and also co written by George.
Speaker 2: Lucas Wale Ale. Did you enjoy Return of the Jedi?
Speaker 5: I did?
Speaker 6: Yes.
Speaker 5: Three from three I think I actually in the end,
Speaker 5: I think I really did well.
Speaker 1: This is you can you can now answer the question
Speaker 1: you can have a favorite Star Wars movie.
Speaker 5: Now, Ah, that's true. Oh God, I wasn't ready for that.
Speaker 5: That's no naive not to be ready for that.
Speaker 1: Actually, we can come back. We can come back today.
Speaker 1: You may or may not have an answer, but.
Speaker 5: I was tempted to say Empire Strikes Back. I think
Speaker 5: Strikes Back is a better film than the others in
Speaker 5: the way that I just got the twist in it,
Speaker 5: like the blind Side and that sort of stuff. I
Speaker 5: kind of got to the end of that one and
Speaker 5: I said, oh, that's recognizably the way a good film works. Yes,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. And halfway through Jedi, I
Speaker 5: was like, what is this? Like what have I done?
Speaker 5: And there's still bits about it where I'm like, I
Speaker 5: don't know, like did we need the Ewoks?
Speaker 2: Well that is contentious, Like.
Speaker 5: I know, I know they've loved and so from that perspective, yeah,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure it was great for like the.
Speaker 1: Crew hated the Ewoks, did they They One of the producers,
Speaker 1: Ralph mcquarie, he walked off because he hated the Ewoks
Speaker 1: so much. You just said, na and originally supposed to
Speaker 1: be Wookies, which actually I do think would help because
Speaker 1: some people just don't like the Ewoks.
Speaker 5: I like, I just don't see the point of the
Speaker 5: whole thing.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, yes, see for me, the return of the
Speaker 1: Jedi brilliant first act. You could even argue it was
Speaker 1: a completely necessary and I would like to discuss.
Speaker 5: The whole job of the Hut one.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, but entertaining it's a lot of the
Speaker 1: way to introduce characters we will. I would like to
Speaker 1: get your idea of what Luke's plan or what the
Speaker 1: plan was to actually save Han Solo.
Speaker 5: I can earn the assume it's what happened.
Speaker 1: Well, I got a feeling layer and look, we're on
Speaker 1: different and different things going on.
Speaker 2: A masterful third.
Speaker 5: Act, yes, the third act is the thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you have these three things going on which
Speaker 1: we can get to and a bit of a saggy
Speaker 1: middle act.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 5: So as I was watching the first act, I was going, well,
Speaker 5: this is all fun, but it looks to me like
Speaker 5: I mean Jabba the Hunt. Interestingly, everyone knows that Jaba
Speaker 5: the Hunt is, and I obviously did coming into Star Wars,
Speaker 5: but I didn't realize he was actually such a minimal character,
Speaker 5: like he doesn't appear that much throughout the trilogy. And
Speaker 5: then this is the moment.
Speaker 1: And originally when when I first saw Return of the
Speaker 1: Jedi at Greens for a twin twice in the same day,
Speaker 1: I've mentioned this and then and I was the asshole
Speaker 1: who said when Luke enters Jabba's palace and the like
Speaker 1: behind me goes starth Vader, and I just laughed, it's Luke,
Speaker 1: what an asshole. So but when I watched the first time,
Speaker 1: we had never seen Jabba before. Because Jabba was added in,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that he was referenced.
Speaker 2: We had never seen him. Okay, so this is exciting.
Speaker 5: This is one of my regrets with the fact that
Speaker 5: I've seen the new digitally altimately, because there's a lot
Speaker 5: of times I'm watching this he was going, is that
Speaker 5: a new bit? Is that? And I was like, Actually,
Speaker 5: because I'm a bit of a purist, I like, I
Speaker 5: want to see the original. I mean, i'd see it
Speaker 5: on real to real if I could. Yeah. But anyway,
Speaker 5: so that just backs up the point of making know
Speaker 5: that he pretty peripheral character really. And then so as
Speaker 5: this is going on, I'm like, well, this is all
Speaker 5: kind of fun and the okay, there's a fighting scene
Speaker 5: and all this sort of stuff, and they've got to
Speaker 5: get Hansolid out. I guess, all right, okay, but it
Speaker 5: kind of looks like an excuse for Jim Henson's workshop
Speaker 5: just to make a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1: Or funnily enough, George Lucas did want to do it
Speaker 1: basically another CANTEENA scene like mos iclely Canteena because when
Speaker 1: they did that. He thought they didn't quite have as
Speaker 1: much money as he like, So this is his opportunity
Speaker 1: to go back and go let's let's be.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's not as good as the canteen To scene.
Speaker 5: I don't think there's something about the can maybe because
Speaker 5: that's your first venture into that world, so it strikes
Speaker 5: you in a different sort of way.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I think, and it's.
Speaker 1: I mean that funnily enough, the Canteena seems more dangerous
Speaker 1: in a weird way. I think maybe because we know
Speaker 1: our characters. We know Luke's Jedi. Now we know they're capable.
Speaker 1: We probably know they're going to get out alive. Where
Speaker 1: when we first All Star Wars was yeah this farm boy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: He walked into it. You know. It's like it's like
Speaker 2: when you're sixteen year older you go to a pub.
Speaker 2: I know you know that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, you know we've all been there, so
Speaker 1: I yeah, I mean, I really I love the I
Speaker 1: mean there's obviously the stuff that happens before we get
Speaker 1: to the Jabba's Palace, but.
Speaker 2: I always kind of thinks as the opening.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, yeah, and I get
Speaker 5: there's an important plot device there that you have. Hansla
Speaker 5: has to get free somehow. Yeah, I get that that's happening,
Speaker 5: and I guess you get a demonstration of Luke Skywalker's
Speaker 5: ability this sort of he's becoming.
Speaker 1: Yes, so you certainly picked up the vibe that I
Speaker 1: did very early, very You know that Luke had gone
Speaker 1: from farm boy in yeah, and you hope into apprentice
Speaker 1: in their pare strikes back to now master Jedi.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yes, although he has one thing to do before. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 5: but it did at the same time as all that's happening.
Speaker 5: I can see the criticisms, Like, I can see why
Speaker 5: there would be people whould say, no, this isn't the
Speaker 5: film because because of that, a lot of it feels gratuitous. Right,
Speaker 5: Do you need all this jabb of the heart stuff?
Speaker 5: Do you really need it? The whole Ewoch thing, that
Speaker 5: whole storyline. Actually, it's completely the real battle. Is the
Speaker 5: Empire going to be destroyed? And if the Empire is defeated,
Speaker 5: then it's all over the Wookie thing. It's relevant for
Speaker 5: those particular characters, but that's kind of it, right, Do
Speaker 5: you need any of that at all? Is this just
Speaker 5: an excuse to create a whole lot of characters that
Speaker 5: you can put on a whole lot of T shirts
Speaker 5: or something.
Speaker 2: Or that there's a big part of it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So I can see that criticism. Even they rebuilt the
Speaker 5: death start, it's like, okay, right, okay, so you basically
Speaker 5: just it's the same thing. Let's just blow up the
Speaker 5: death start again.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 5: So I can see those criticisms, and I would say
Speaker 5: halfway through the film, that's how I was feeling, was like,
Speaker 5: it's just me or is this just weirdly weak? But
Speaker 5: I think the way it ends, that third act, which
Speaker 5: I think you described as master forward, I think it's
Speaker 5: so good and so for such deep reasons. Actually, I've
Speaker 5: got to I've been thinking about this, and I think
Speaker 5: it's a film. I think it's a deeply moral film,
Speaker 5: and I think it's a now from our current vantage
Speaker 5: point in twenty twenty two, I think it's a deeply
Speaker 5: unfashionably moral film, which I really like.
Speaker 2: Is part of that.
Speaker 1: It's one of the fascinating things about it is that
Speaker 1: for Luke to be the hero, usually it's about killing
Speaker 1: the bad guy. Yes, and this is them saying this
Speaker 1: is him resisting that and choosing a higher power.
Speaker 5: That's exactly it. So he what's unfashionable about it is
Speaker 5: we are in an age, I think, where virtue in
Speaker 5: political struggle is demonstrated by how angry you can get,
Speaker 5: by how much you can lash out, by how many
Speaker 5: people you can destroy that are the enemy. That's actually
Speaker 5: how we go about doing politics and selling ourselves to
Speaker 5: the world as serious people with a moral core. Right,
Speaker 5: Luke is the exact opposite of His journey is the
Speaker 5: exact opposite that in several really important ways. One, he's
Speaker 5: not an instant hero who's just born with I don't know,
Speaker 5: superpowers or freakish ability or whatever, who's to be celebrated
Speaker 5: for being so strong and courageous and whatever. No, he's
Speaker 5: a person who's on a journey, who starts a million
Speaker 5: miles away from that and has to undergo training and initiation.
Speaker 5: He has to become that. In other words, he has
Speaker 5: to undergo a really rigorous, lengthy process of moral formation.
Speaker 5: He has to be worthy internally, almost spiritually. He has
Speaker 5: to be worthy of being the Jedi right.
Speaker 1: And this has done over three films, as opposed to
Speaker 1: it being a montage in a New Hope where he
Speaker 1: goes from farm boy to Jedi exactly.
Speaker 5: And it's the fact that it's over three films that
Speaker 5: I think gives that its power, right, And that's why
Speaker 5: Yoda is because watching it over the course of it,
Speaker 5: I was kind of surprised Yoda wasn't in it more
Speaker 5: because he's such a huge, famous character. I just assumed
Speaker 5: going into the trilogy, Oh, well, this is going to
Speaker 5: be wall to wall Yoda, and it's actually not. But
Speaker 5: he's such a crucial character because he's the moral center
Speaker 5: of the universe, right, he's the moral center of Luke's universe.
Speaker 5: And he's not a guide that teaches Luke how to fight.
Speaker 5: He's a guy that teaches Luke how to be, and
Speaker 5: that's a very different thing. Luke Skywalker can only be
Speaker 5: Luke Skywalker because he learns to be something, and that's something.
Speaker 5: Is not one who will do whatever it takes to
Speaker 5: destroy the empire, right, that's not someone who will lash
Speaker 5: out in a kind of self justifying blaze of anger
Speaker 5: or rage. And the great like the zenith of all
Speaker 5: this is that scene of course with the Emperor at
Speaker 5: the end. The Everra is great. By the way, you
Speaker 5: don't see him until this film, that which mirrors exactly
Speaker 5: the dynamic between Batman and the Joker actually, and just
Speaker 5: one of the reasons I love Batman so much, where
Speaker 5: the Joker is saying to Batman, come on, kill me.
Speaker 5: I want you to do be because the minute you
Speaker 5: do it, you become the same as me, and then
Speaker 5: you've lost right. And that's the moral drama of Batman.
Speaker 5: That's why Batman is to me the greatest superhero. It's
Speaker 5: not just because of Batman, it's because he's got the
Speaker 5: greatest villains. And the Joker is the greatest villain because
Speaker 5: he's so deeply psychologically and morally inflected. Right, He's asking
Speaker 5: all the hardest questions of Batman's moral commitments. You have
Speaker 5: one rule. I'm going to make you break that rule,
Speaker 5: and if that means I die great, right, everything I
Speaker 5: do is going to be engineered to what's getting you
Speaker 5: to break your rule? You are going to kill me, right,
Speaker 5: And the Emperor's doing the same thing. The Lightsaber's next
Speaker 5: to him, He's showing next to the Emperor, he's showing
Speaker 5: Luke all of the ways that the Rebel alliance is
Speaker 5: in trouble, how this was all a trap, It's all
Speaker 5: falling apart. It's come on, Luke, what are you going
Speaker 5: to do here? Pick up the lightsaber and strike me,
Speaker 5: because the Emperor knows the minute you do that, you're
Speaker 5: not that you've succumbed to the dark side. And this
Speaker 5: is really interesting because the dark side here, I think,
Speaker 5: connotes a series of a series of moral vices like anger, retribution, revenge,
Speaker 5: all these sorts of things. We're in an age where
Speaker 5: we're being trained, i think, by public discourse to think
Speaker 5: of those things as virtues. Now Luke isn't that, and
Speaker 5: he nearly does to come right. He picks up the lightsaber,
Speaker 5: he goes to stroke the emprehends up in the light taper,
Speaker 5: fight with with daft, etcetera. So this is a really
Speaker 5: unfashionable view of morality. Like a it's something that you
Speaker 5: work on, that is part of your day to day
Speaker 5: process of inculcating something internal right. It's not just about
Speaker 5: what your views are on things, it's about who you are.
Speaker 5: It's a long process, it requires initiation, It requires masters
Speaker 5: to help you along. You know who have greater wisdom
Speaker 5: than you because they're older than you, et cetera. Very
Speaker 5: unfashionable idea, very un fashioned.
Speaker 1: It's very interesting as though well, that Yoda and obi
Speaker 1: Wan give different advice in a way. Subtly, Yoda says,
Speaker 1: you must confront Vada. Let's have a listen to the
Speaker 1: Yoda advising Luke, no more drinking?
Speaker 6: Do you require already? Know you that what you need?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 6: I am a Jedi?
Speaker 4: Not yet.
Speaker 6: One thing remains.
Speaker 5: Vader. You must confront Vader.
Speaker 6: Then on, then, hey, Jedi, will you be and confronting
Speaker 6: you will? Master Yoda is Darth Vader?
Speaker 4: My father.
Speaker 6: Arrest I need yeah, yes, rest.
Speaker 5: Yoda.
Speaker 3: I must know.
Speaker 6: Your father is told you did he yes? Unexpected?
Speaker 4: This is m h and unfortunately.
Speaker 5: Unfortunate that I know the truth.
Speaker 4: No, MH.
Speaker 6: Unfortunate that you rushed to face him that you're complete?
Speaker 5: Was your training that not ready for the burger for you?
Speaker 4: I'm sorry?
Speaker 6: We met a Jedi.
Speaker 5: Stream flows from the forest.
Speaker 1: So he's saying you must confront Vader, which is a
Speaker 1: very different thing than what obi Wan is about to say.
Speaker 2: Obi Wan says you must destroy Vader.
Speaker 1: Now, let's have to listen to obi Wan and what
Speaker 1: he has to say to look and there's I guess
Speaker 1: there's two elements here. He talks about Anakin and then
Speaker 1: he talks about like, we're going to listen to both,
Speaker 1: but this is funny that you've kind of had noticed
Speaker 1: and you're not alone. And I agree that the second,
Speaker 1: the middle act does lag a little bit. This sequence
Speaker 1: wasn't originally going to be in there, so there's gonna
Speaker 1: be no Yoda.
Speaker 5: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: And it was Richard Marquin who came in the director
Speaker 1: and said, oh no, you need you need to have
Speaker 1: Yoda in there, if only two, to hammer home or
Speaker 1: at least to solidify the idea that Vader is Luke's father,
Speaker 1: and that there must be a confrontation. And they kind
Speaker 1: of like, I shared the load between Obi Wan and.
Speaker 2: Yoda. But then James and Luke. George still has some doubts.
Speaker 2: And then James L.
Speaker 1: Jones said, I always thought that Darth Vader is a trick,
Speaker 1: that he's not really his father. So who is the
Speaker 1: best person to actually kind of confirm that this is true,
Speaker 1: the Yoda or Obi Wan. So this is obi one
Speaker 1: talking to Luke about Anakin Skywalker.
Speaker 2: Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed
Speaker 2: and murdered my father.
Speaker 6: Your father.
Speaker 7: Was seduced by the dark side of the force. He
Speaker 7: ceased to be Anagin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When
Speaker 7: that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.
Speaker 7: So what I told you it was true from a certain.
Speaker 6: Point of view, a certain point of view, Luke, You're.
Speaker 7: Going to find that many of the truths we cling
Speaker 7: to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin
Speaker 7: was a good friend when I first knew him.
Speaker 5: Your father was.
Speaker 7: Already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly
Speaker 7: the Force.
Speaker 2: Was with him.
Speaker 7: I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.
Speaker 7: I thought that I could instruct him just as well
Speaker 7: as Yoda.
Speaker 6: I was wrong. There is still good in him.
Speaker 7: He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil.
Speaker 5: I can't do it.
Speaker 7: Then you cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth
Speaker 7: Vader again.
Speaker 6: I can't kill my own father.
Speaker 7: Then the Emperor has already one. You were only.
Speaker 2: Hope, No pressure, obi Wan.
Speaker 5: It's such an important scene. Yeah, yeah, such an important scene.
Speaker 5: And what's important about it is that Obi Wan's wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 5: he is completely.
Speaker 2: Wrong, Luke. Luke is the true Jedi here?
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, but I think thanks to Yoda. But also
Speaker 5: so thanks to something you ate within him.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So this is the other aspect of it that
Speaker 5: I think is deeply moral and deeply unfashionable at the moment,
Speaker 5: and that is that the thing that marks look out
Speaker 5: from just about everyone else except perhaps Shoda, is he
Speaker 5: never loses faith in the possibility of redemption that some
Speaker 5: even someone as terrible as death later And you could say, yes,
Speaker 5: that's because it's his dad, and so okay, yeah, maybe
Speaker 5: maybe I don't know that that's necessarily true, but maybe,
Speaker 5: but he still doesn't lose faith. He doesn't do that thing,
Speaker 5: which is the thing that we love to do, which
Speaker 5: is just right, someone off just because that's it. They
Speaker 5: exist now only to be killed or only to be vanquished.
Speaker 5: And maybe one's one hundred percent wrong, because, as we
Speaker 5: discover in the final confrontation with the Emperor and Darth Vader,
Speaker 5: the Emperor wants him to kill dath Vader because to
Speaker 5: do that means he's now overcome by the dark side,
Speaker 5: and he just steps into Vader's shoes and becomes probably
Speaker 5: a better version of Vader for the Emperor and for
Speaker 5: the Empire. Right, So that's a really I don't know,
Speaker 5: I'm kind of a bit stunned that I haven't heard
Speaker 5: this being I'm sure it gets discussed, but like, I
Speaker 5: know bits I went in knowing bits of Star Wars,
Speaker 5: like Luke homb your father. Yeah, I know that whatever.
Speaker 5: I had no idea. You get to see Darth Vader
Speaker 5: without his home, and he's just like, what did that?
Speaker 5: Why does no one talk about that?
Speaker 2: I guess I get spoken about.
Speaker 5: That's not in the same way. Otherwise i'd have heard it.
Speaker 5: You just don't hear it the same way. I didn't
Speaker 5: realize that. In the end, Darth Vader admits his error
Speaker 5: and forsakes the dark side. That's just not part of
Speaker 5: the sort of what's in the ether, at least the
Speaker 5: ether that I'm none of that.
Speaker 2: In your mind, Darth Vada, that was just a bad guy.
Speaker 5: Right, and I'm expecting, oh well, eventually Luke goes and
Speaker 5: kills him and they win or something. That's kind of
Speaker 5: how it ends. This is a much more impressive ending
Speaker 5: because it has these sort of quite rich themes of redemption,
Speaker 5: of forgiveness, of repentance, like of human development, of spiritual development,
Speaker 5: of the way in which the dark and the light
Speaker 5: sort of dwells within the same person and how one
Speaker 5: might have even within Luke, right, because he does succumb
Speaker 5: to those things that make the Emperor think he's going
Speaker 5: to go fall to the dark side, right.
Speaker 2: He does.
Speaker 1: When Vader starts talking about Layer, Yeah, that's which is
Speaker 1: it's it's it's beautiful that comes up at that point,
Speaker 1: you know, like because you do need something, something that
Speaker 1: you know, to turn the screws on Luke. Before we
Speaker 1: get to that, let's just have a listen to it.
Speaker 1: We'll finish off Ibi Wan talking and he also they
Speaker 1: also discussed Luke's sister.
Speaker 7: Other he spoke on as your twin sister.
Speaker 5: But I have no sister.
Speaker 7: To protect you both from the Emperor. You were hidden
Speaker 7: from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew
Speaker 7: as I did, if Anagan were to have any offspring,
Speaker 7: they would be a threat to him. That is the
Speaker 7: reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
Speaker 5: Laya lay as my sister.
Speaker 7: You know inside serves you well, bury your feelings deep
Speaker 7: down loop they do your credit that they couldn't be
Speaker 7: made to serve the Emperor.
Speaker 1: So that that's foreshadow that sets up that moment up
Speaker 1: where Vader mentions Layer and works it out he has
Speaker 1: these feelings that have betrayed him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean even that piece of advice from
Speaker 5: Obi one of it, who says, you know, bury your
Speaker 5: feelings deep with deep inside. Whoever he says that anymore,
Speaker 5: we're like, if you've got a feeling, tell somebody, tell everyone.
Speaker 5: It's yeah, but it sort of speaks, I guess, to
Speaker 5: the the idea of what's at stake, Like Luke's being
Speaker 5: asked there. There's the whole question of like the strategic
Speaker 5: reasons that you wouldn't want Layer to be known as.
Speaker 5: But Luke's being asked there to resort to know, resources
Speaker 5: of character to do something really difficult, right, to overcome
Speaker 5: just responding to feeling that sort of stimulus response thing
Speaker 5: is in the end, the great battle that he has
Speaker 5: right at the end of the film.
Speaker 1: I will say, I will say the recent series Kenobi Like,
Speaker 1: one of the great joys of that is seeing you know,
Speaker 1: Obi Wan and Vader you know, almost in their prime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was certainly Vader in his prime, I think. And
Speaker 1: in defense of Obi Wan, this force ghost him. He
Speaker 1: does try like he has tried and tried again to
Speaker 1: see the good Invader or to see Anakin, so he
Speaker 1: has reasons for his Yes, Now you may say that
Speaker 1: a Jedi should still always keep you know, maybe they're
Speaker 1: not They're not perfect and Jedies do get corrupted and
Speaker 1: Jedi's fall and not perfect.
Speaker 2: No, No, he has his moments.
Speaker 1: So I think, to use one of my mum's phrases,
Speaker 1: Obi WANs at the end of his tabor, he's had
Speaker 1: about the pussy's bow.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he's made a judgment. Yeah, but it's telling
Speaker 5: that he's judgment's wrong, and it's it's telling, which doesn't
Speaker 5: mean he's fuck stupid or anything, but in the end
Speaker 5: he's wrong. And maybe that's because it looks at a
Speaker 5: higher level than that.
Speaker 1: When you found out that that so layer was the
Speaker 1: related reaction of thoughts feelings.
Speaker 5: I thought was this is a real family drama. That
Speaker 5: was my first thought, and I was a bit subs
Speaker 5: on it because I actually didn't know what was coming.
Speaker 2: Because of the passion and by strikes back.
Speaker 5: Well, but also because it's like, oh, you've done the
Speaker 5: family trick well.
Speaker 1: It is often a thing that kind of some Star
Speaker 1: Wars fans. While we went into the next installation, the
Speaker 1: next not not the prequels, but the new the newer films,
Speaker 1: it was like, ah, is everyone.
Speaker 2: Going to be related again?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So yeah, it's tricky.
Speaker 5: It just felt to me like a trick that had
Speaker 5: already been used, Yeah, because I didn't realize that it
Speaker 5: was actually quite like that. It was setting up something
Speaker 5: really quite important. All of it is, but at that moment,
Speaker 5: and remember that's in the context of a film that
Speaker 5: I'm at that point a bit worried about. I'm just
Speaker 5: kind of like, this feels like they went one too
Speaker 5: long or something and they couldn't really figure anything new out.
Speaker 5: So they chuck some new characters in, but we don't
Speaker 5: need and all that. So that's what's going through my
Speaker 5: mind at that moment. So it probably wasn't in the
Speaker 5: most receptive state for that, and I thought maybe it
Speaker 5: would be a neat little trope that they could use
Speaker 5: to play off with Hans Solo or whatever, which they
Speaker 5: do a bit.
Speaker 2: But yeah, well we go back to end Or, and
Speaker 2: end It is the only new planet in Return of
Speaker 2: the Jedi.
Speaker 1: Usually we have a couple of new planets in each movie,
Speaker 1: but it's basically tato Wine, Dagoba, and end Or.
Speaker 2: There's a moment in end Or where George Lucas.
Speaker 1: Dialogue is not really his thing, and we see it
Speaker 1: even more with the prequels. But there is a moment
Speaker 1: that Layer and Luke cher and then Hahn joins them,
Speaker 1: and then he and even the way this is blocked,
Speaker 1: which is not George Lucas's fault. That's that's on Richard Marquin.
Speaker 1: But it's like a scene at the General hospital. Could
Speaker 1: so be bold and the beautiful, let's have a listen
Speaker 1: at and this is you know, this fall is probably.
Speaker 2: Smack bang in the middle of back two.
Speaker 1: And this may be white white SAgs a little bit,
Speaker 1: but this is Hahn and Layer.
Speaker 2: Hey, what's going on?
Speaker 4: Nothing? I just want to be alone for a little while.
Speaker 2: Nothing. Come on, tell me what's going on?
Speaker 4: I can't tell you.
Speaker 5: Could you tell Luke?
Speaker 2: Is that who you could tell?
Speaker 4: Hi? I'm sorry, hold.
Speaker 1: Me now, I was a twelve year old, you know,
Speaker 1: I was probably you know, went along with it.
Speaker 2: But it's I mean, it's just it's just I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be surprised you.
Speaker 1: George Lucas wrote that and was probably put his feet
Speaker 1: up on the desk and his hands beyond his head
Speaker 1: and went and nailed it, but he didn't.
Speaker 2: He didn't like, I don't know.
Speaker 5: It's half an hour of the film. You could have
Speaker 5: back if.
Speaker 1: You Yes, I don't know how you make that stuff
Speaker 1: any better, but yeah it is.
Speaker 5: But but I sort of reached a point very early on,
Speaker 5: like in Star Wars, I think, yeah, the first film
Speaker 5: where I just said, I'm just not going to invest
Speaker 5: in the woodenness of the performances and the dialogue or whatever.
Speaker 5: That's obviously that's the that's the house style.
Speaker 1: Yes, but the performance only become wood when they're giving
Speaker 1: ship like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean, like that, the performances,
Speaker 2: Like I.
Speaker 1: Love how much Mark Hamill commits to look Skywalker carry Fisher,
Speaker 1: the saying, the fistiness of Carrie Fisher. I love that
Speaker 1: there's a sense of from Harrison Ford of almost winking
Speaker 1: to the camera on occasion because I think he he
Speaker 1: you know, he was probably over Star Wars before anybody else,
Speaker 1: you know, where his career was making you know, Indiana
Speaker 1: Jones and and the Mosquito Coasts, you know, but by
Speaker 1: then where Mark Hamill's Look Skywalker and he was happy
Speaker 1: to be Luke Skywalker. So I think performance is always
Speaker 1: great in Star Wars until they're given these personal scenes
Speaker 1: that are kind of not necessarily about the conflict of
Speaker 1: the force and that you know, actually.
Speaker 2: About feelings that you know. It's just they can't make work.
Speaker 1: Harrison Ford said, George Lucas, you can write these words,
Speaker 1: but you can't say them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a good vibe. Yeah. I think even the
Speaker 5: scene when Laya reveals to Harrison for to Han Solo,
Speaker 5: the misunderstanding that I know he's my brother. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 5: I mean we're glad it happened, I guess.
Speaker 2: But it's the way it was supposed to end.
Speaker 1: Was Luke Skywalker was supposed to be back in Tatoine,
Speaker 1: and he was supposed to walk off into the desert
Speaker 1: like a line which kind of in a way leads
Speaker 1: better to into which they weren't thinking of at the
Speaker 1: time obviously. I mean they were thinking this is it
Speaker 1: like they was thinking even about George Lucas. May say
Speaker 1: he still had the prequels, you know, in mind or
Speaker 1: hope to make him, but there was there wasn't a
Speaker 1: lot of talk of the prequels back then, really, so
Speaker 1: the idea was that Luke just walked off into the
Speaker 1: desert Solo which when we see him in the Force Awakens,
Speaker 1: he's basically he's in isolation. You know, he's in exile.
Speaker 1: So it kind of would have married up quite nicely.
Speaker 5: I have to ask you, as a huge Star Wars
Speaker 5: than like, given the way that this trilogy ends, and
Speaker 5: I think it ends really brilliantly, like, yeah, all my
Speaker 5: misgivings about this film aside there's a bow on it. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and it's rich. Yeah, it's done well. It's not just
Speaker 5: a happy ending, it's more than that, right, purely creatively.
Speaker 5: Did they need should they have left it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: You think they should have done all there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's popcorn. It's entertainment, and I and I
Speaker 1: have loved, to be honest, the prequels. I would have
Speaker 1: I may have given you a different answer when it
Speaker 1: came to the prequels if if they stopped after the prequels,
Speaker 1: that's probably unecessarily. You probably just need to put it
Speaker 1: away now. I actually really enjoyed the recent trilogy. I
Speaker 1: have some issues with some of them, nothing the middle one.
Speaker 1: I I'm disappointed there wasn't more engagement and consultation between J. J.
Speaker 1: Abrams and Ryan Johnson about I was really shocked to
Speaker 1: find out that they didn't really know what each other
Speaker 1: was doing. I find that you're part of Disney now
Speaker 1: like they own Marvel. Marvel did it over like a
Speaker 1: nineteen movie arc. You don't have a three of This
Speaker 1: is the most iconic film franchise of all time. So
Speaker 1: that was that was strange. With that said, I really enjoyed.
Speaker 1: I felt the Force awakens. I really felt like it
Speaker 1: felt like a Star Wars movie where the prequels sometimes
Speaker 1: didn't to me, I also realized, I've come to accept
Speaker 1: that I was at a different age when the prequels
Speaker 1: obviously came out and I.
Speaker 2: The Ewoks.
Speaker 1: To me, what is what jar Jar Binks was to
Speaker 1: a lot of kids.
Speaker 5: And so you're saying you don't like ju Jo Binks
Speaker 5: speak and understand that.
Speaker 1: I can understand his appeal to younger I've seen my
Speaker 1: you know, I started watching it with my kids. They
Speaker 1: quite enjoyed jud Jo.
Speaker 2: Binks because he's cutesy or something. Why is comedic?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the how rude thing. I just took it back
Speaker 1: to full house. Yeah that is yeah, that was Jodie Sweeten.
Speaker 1: So but I've you know, and I watched every and
Speaker 1: then I'll just go back and watch the Rise of Skywalker.
Speaker 1: This is kind of go was I swept up in
Speaker 1: the moment. I've really really enjoyed.
Speaker 5: So you think they've done justice to the I think so.
Speaker 1: And I particularly loved the Mandalorian they have smashed out
Speaker 1: of the park. They I thought Bubba Fett was was
Speaker 1: was good and like a bit of fun.
Speaker 5: Things about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you get to see there's.
Speaker 1: A rank corps in there, and like another rank corps
Speaker 1: and you're back in Jabber's Palace, and and I and
Speaker 1: this anytime I can spend time in the Star Wars well,
Speaker 1: because it's just I was thinking about it this week actually.
Speaker 2: And it's not just because I think, you know, why
Speaker 2: do I still connect with this that?
Speaker 1: Because this is these are my formative years. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't just about seeing the movie. It was the trading
Speaker 1: cards where you know, it was all these things and
Speaker 1: this It wasn't you could just watch them as many
Speaker 1: times as you possibly could.
Speaker 2: You you had to kind of work.
Speaker 1: Out when you could you rent out Return of the Jedi,
Speaker 1: when was it coming out on video?
Speaker 2: You take years for movies to be released on video.
Speaker 5: After the sear three years before I was on TV. Yeah,
Speaker 5: there was a schedule.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so until you had a recorded off TV, it
Speaker 1: was it just felt special.
Speaker 2: It felt special, and yeah, so it was. It was.
Speaker 1: I remember the trading cards, and the trading cards were
Speaker 1: like came out before you may be only seen it
Speaker 1: once or twice, and you'd almost relived the movie.
Speaker 2: Through the through the cards. It was the figurines.
Speaker 1: I had a screen suitcase I used to walk around
Speaker 1: with loaded with Star Wars figurines. And so any time
Speaker 1: I can spend in that universe, time in that universe,
Speaker 1: I I I love and I think Kenoby Canoby in
Speaker 1: a way justifies some of the prequels as well. So
Speaker 1: I thought Rogue one was brilliant and I can't wait
Speaker 1: for and Or where as we speak now less than
Speaker 1: two weeks away from that being released. I think it
Speaker 1: looks amazing. And I thought Solo was unfairly maligned. I
Speaker 1: thought Solo was a really fun adventure that was actually
Speaker 1: like the fastest moving kind of Star Wars movie.
Speaker 5: Just it felt like, go to woe, you can't have
Speaker 5: a fast moving styles.
Speaker 1: There was no general hospital scene between Hahn and Layout excellent.
Speaker 5: I will say about about Return of the Jedi, the
Speaker 5: Death the blowing up of the Death Star this time
Speaker 5: at least has more than three frames devoted to it. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 5: I couldn't help it get noticed in the first one. Yeah, instantly,
Speaker 5: it just sort of happened.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to Let's go back to Jabba's palace.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the plan. What do you
Speaker 1: think Luke's plan was to get out?
Speaker 2: To get out?
Speaker 1: So, okay, he sends the droids in Hans Frozen, his favorite.
Speaker 1: He's a memorabilia, Yes, got the Sportsman's Night, Yes, a
Speaker 1: lot of like a Collingwood jumper on and so. Then
Speaker 1: Luke sends the droids in unbigknownst to C three po
Speaker 1: but two's across it, as he often is. Then we
Speaker 1: go from and then Laya appears in disguise as a
Speaker 1: bounty hunter. That voice I forget who actually voiced it,
Speaker 1: but it's the voice of Et, same voice as Et
Speaker 1: if it sounds familiar. As she gifts Chewbacer to Jabber,
Speaker 1: who's happy with that.
Speaker 2: Then she tries to.
Speaker 1: She was She unfreezes hat and it looks like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're on here.
Speaker 5: He can't see, but then recognizes her sweet breath and.
Speaker 2: Voice amazing, It's beautiful, it is.
Speaker 1: And then somehow, for some reason, Jabb is behind a curtain.
Speaker 1: They've been sitting there in the dark. Yeah, waiting. Yes,
Speaker 1: I must say that. When you hear that laugh, it
Speaker 1: is so beautifully executed.
Speaker 5: But it is what's happening. We're just giving them a moment.
Speaker 1: It's not just jabber and like one or two of
Speaker 1: his cronies. It's like it's like everyone who was at
Speaker 1: the party has waited up. It's like a it's like
Speaker 1: a weird grim surprise party.
Speaker 2: It's very old and everybody. So when did he know
Speaker 2: that that bounty hunter was lea Yeah? Or did he
Speaker 2: did he?
Speaker 5: Was he just following her?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Who knows?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. None of None of those sequence
Speaker 5: has made a great deal of sense to me. But
Speaker 5: I think I've told you before I'm very bad at
Speaker 5: watching actions scenes. Not that that's an action scene, but yeah,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of action scenes in that bit, And
Speaker 5: so I just assume when something like that happens that
Speaker 5: doesn't add up that it's me like, I'm just like, oh, well,
Speaker 5: I have no idea what's going on, But I assume
Speaker 5: everyone else is on board.
Speaker 1: I've never really thought about like, it's never bothered me,
Speaker 1: and it still doesn't like it. Really, it really doesn't.
Speaker 1: But I was watching a game. What was the plan?
Speaker 2: He said.
Speaker 1: Luke then comes in pretty confident, I would say, very cool,
Speaker 1: got a newfound swagger.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you're.
Speaker 5: Going to die, even at the moment where he is
Speaker 5: most likely to be killed. Yeah, he's one hundred percent sure.
Speaker 5: This is what's going to like work out.
Speaker 1: Despite his newfound Jedi powers, it seems to be unaware
Speaker 1: that he's standing.
Speaker 2: On a trap door.
Speaker 5: True.
Speaker 1: Also, even when three Po tries to tell him he doesn't,
Speaker 1: can't quite finish the sentence off for him.
Speaker 5: Yes, but also seems unwilling to use the Force in
Speaker 5: fighting these monsters. Well maybe the Force doesn't work on
Speaker 5: the monsters, but he's using the Jedi mind trick when
Speaker 5: he walks. I just never understand that we've had this
Speaker 5: conversation about I don't know exactly what the Force can do,
Speaker 5: but it seems to me it can do unbelievable things,
Speaker 5: except when you need to win a fistfight with somebody.
Speaker 1: Well, it is funny because they will use that like
Speaker 1: in a battle scene like in a big battle scene
Speaker 1: with a vader. And this is even going to other
Speaker 1: films as well, Like yeah, like they it's bring on
Speaker 1: the Jedi stuff, but they won't use them for like
Speaker 1: just little things.
Speaker 5: So I can only assume from that, and this is
Speaker 5: a big stretch, but I can only assume from that
Speaker 5: that Luke intends to be beaten and to be captured
Speaker 5: and then nearly killed.
Speaker 2: Yes, why does he send everybody in? He sends everybody
Speaker 2: in the trapped.
Speaker 1: I can't I can't work out why Layer went in
Speaker 1: there with Chewi and then Luke went in separately, Like
Speaker 1: what they mustn't have been talking. There's no communication therese
Speaker 1: leave Layer.
Speaker 2: And Chewing there.
Speaker 1: They're not really unless he's thinking they he needs them
Speaker 1: to help with the escape now either either he knows
Speaker 1: I've heard a theory that because Luke was born on Tateweine,
Speaker 1: he might know that Jabber likes to make a show
Speaker 1: of of you know, this is the Sarlak pit, so
Speaker 1: he might know that they will all be together.
Speaker 5: And even so does he need that? Well, what's the
Speaker 5: theory there that Jabba wouldn't throw Luke into the pit alone?
Speaker 5: Because that's not theatrical enough so he needs.
Speaker 1: If it's just Luke now, I think he sends our
Speaker 1: two in so he can have the lightsaber.
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, so he's unarmed. He walks in unarmed. I
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Maybe could have mentioned that. They could have kind of
Speaker 1: said he's unarms. This is going to make that point.
Speaker 5: He sends C three po in because he needs a translator.
Speaker 2: You need to well, he doesn't need a translator.
Speaker 5: Just on the translating point. This drove me mad. I
Speaker 5: was C three po is translating for Jab of the Hut?
Speaker 5: Is he giving him the messages back in English? If
Speaker 5: that's the case, why does Jabba just talk directly to
Speaker 5: the people who are speaking English. There's a moment I'm
Speaker 5: sure where Jabba says these Jabba stuff. C three po
Speaker 5: speaks in English to whoever it was. It might have
Speaker 5: been Layer at the time doing the negotiation. Bayer replies
Speaker 5: in English. Three tells him in English. You can hear.
Speaker 2: That I did like that name.
Speaker 1: In whatever language it is R two duties. So the
Speaker 1: first two he's just been AUSD two yeah, but the
Speaker 1: second two is yeah yeah, it's subtle.
Speaker 5: It's a beautiful language. Also, their music is very American yes.
Speaker 2: Well, and that's that's new.
Speaker 1: So that whole bigger things you kind of tell when
Speaker 1: that's just going up like that was is this basically
Speaker 1: that blue Elephant thing, and that was kind of pretty
Speaker 1: much the band And so that's.
Speaker 5: Just more just fun. Yes, right, that doesn't need to
Speaker 5: be that.
Speaker 2: It doesn't need to be there.
Speaker 1: But I mean we love the cut the world, but
Speaker 1: the universe building of Star Wars.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that's actually in the end that's probably
Speaker 5: the reason it's become as huge as it is, because
Speaker 5: I think it's ultimately like all the stuff I was
Speaker 5: talking about before, about the moral arc of it and everything,
Speaker 5: I really like, I'm pretty sure the kids were not
Speaker 5: that excited about that. It's just the aesthetics of it.
Speaker 5: Darth Vader has a great aesthetic. The Stormtroopers have a
Speaker 5: great aesthetic. And even now watching it with all the
Speaker 5: sort of POxy effects you know, where they that doesn't
Speaker 5: look that muppet looks like it's a ridiculous muppet. It
Speaker 5: doesn't look like it's this thing that's come to life.
Speaker 5: It's not well done by contemporary standards. Right, Even then,
Speaker 5: there's just there's something in the aesthetic that just makes
Speaker 5: you want to watch it. It makes you want to
Speaker 5: look at it, it makes you want to buy into it.
Speaker 5: It's perfect for the figurines, et cetera. Which is why
Speaker 5: it doesn't surprise me to hear you say anytime you
Speaker 5: can spend in that world, because I think what you're
Speaker 5: saying is anytime you can spend rounded by that esthetic. Yeah,
Speaker 5: there's a you know, there's it's it's hyper modern in
Speaker 5: the sense that it's space and all this, but it's
Speaker 5: also ancient, right the the way the Jedis dress, the like,
Speaker 5: that's even and to come back to the moral dimensions
Speaker 5: of it, even that that's a very like traditional old
Speaker 5: fashioned morality, right, all of it. It's basically like an
Speaker 5: order of some sort like monks or whatever, right, the
Speaker 5: sort of trained, initiated warrior type person these are these
Speaker 5: are ancient ideas. So it's got these incredible the incredible mix,
Speaker 5: I think if the ancient and the hypermodern. There's lasers
Speaker 5: and stuff like that, but it's really just sword play. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's all that sort of I think, whether deliberately or otherwise,
Speaker 5: I think it's very much nailed that esthetic.
Speaker 1: I think George Luigels is going for that Matine kind
Speaker 1: of you know, space fantasy, you know, very much nodding
Speaker 1: the hat to you, old mate. Movies and and and
Speaker 1: many many kinds of influences. I mean, that's why the Jedi,
Speaker 1: you know, where it can be a little bit inconsistent sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's a made up it's a made
Speaker 1: up religion, and it's a little bit of this, and
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of that. I mean, even some
Speaker 1: of the languages. So Ninnam, which is Lando's co pilot,
Speaker 1: he speaks a Kenyan dialect.
Speaker 5: Is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And apparently audiences in Kenya were so thrilled to
Speaker 1: hear their language spoken and actually they spoke properly on screen.
Speaker 1: It was and it was voiced by Kenyan student living
Speaker 1: in the US. And the Ewoks. There's a couple of
Speaker 1: different dialects called languages going on. There's a Filipino language,
Speaker 1: and there's also some Ewoks speak a language I think
Speaker 1: Kalmilk language spoke by some Buddhist tribe in southern Russia.
Speaker 1: So now, I mean, I'm heartened by hearing that the
Speaker 1: Kenyans were like on board and like going, wow, this
Speaker 1: is they're speaking this properly. So I hope they've gone
Speaker 1: and done that with the same due diligence with other
Speaker 1: languages as opposed as doing asient accents, for example.
Speaker 5: But if they're using languages like that, though they're pretty obscure,
Speaker 5: you'd probably be hard pressed to find someone who can
Speaker 5: do anything in it that isn't speaking of.
Speaker 1: Problem and nine eighty seven, chances are you won't hear
Speaker 1: the complaints that the Southern Russians Russian Buddhists probably ain't.
Speaker 5: No, probably not getting I did have one question though
Speaker 5: about the Ewoks. You know that scene where they they
Speaker 5: first run into them and they decide to see three
Speaker 5: pos their God and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yes, has that.
Speaker 5: Attracted a lot of criticism for being racist or have
Speaker 5: people just kind of waved that through?
Speaker 2: Not that I've heard, no, because.
Speaker 5: As I was watching it, it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 5: it's the drums and you know, oh, we see this,
Speaker 5: you know, we're really primitive and here's this modern thing
Speaker 5: and will make you out God because well why wouldn't we,
Speaker 5: you know, they don't have any reason to make him
Speaker 5: their god. It's just kind of it just felt a.
Speaker 1: Bit like, I guess because these is golden yeah, old
Speaker 1: if it was Luke like the Golden Cuff, Yeah it
Speaker 1: was Luke or hahnh you might kind of go okay,
Speaker 1: but because he's literally made of gold, I think that
Speaker 1: yeah maybe. I mean, I've never thought of that.
Speaker 2: I must say it.
Speaker 1: I've never heard it, but I'm not saying it doesn't
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that I was communities there's a
Speaker 1: broad one.
Speaker 5: Or even I'm sure there's a take out there like that.
Speaker 5: But I was just wondering about because it felt a
Speaker 5: bit like a kind of africaure, a caricature of primitive
Speaker 5: Africans or something like that. That's kind of how but
Speaker 5: I mean, I wasn't like on fire about or anything,
Speaker 5: but as I was watching it, I was just kind of,
Speaker 5: I wonder if that's been a thing like that's sort
Speaker 5: of debates out there, but if not, they're not.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I did enjoy the.
Speaker 1: Three po explaining the story of them, like and doing
Speaker 1: all the sound effects and taking them through that like
Speaker 1: that felt you know, like I said, we mentioned quite
Speaker 1: few times, Act two does lag a little bit, but
Speaker 1: it felt like a little breath at that point. I
Speaker 1: had no issue with them growing up. When I first
Speaker 1: I loved them.
Speaker 5: They were so popular.
Speaker 2: It was so popular. I mean they had the Caravan
Speaker 2: of carriages and.
Speaker 5: I've seen that film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, have you seen Carabana Carriage.
Speaker 5: I remember very little about it except when something bad
Speaker 5: happens they go, oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, their own cartoon it was, you know, and Warrick
Speaker 1: Davis was. I think it's wicked and funnily enough, the
Speaker 1: term ewoks never used and no names are used either,
Speaker 1: but there you know we.
Speaker 2: Know in the credits.
Speaker 5: Is that only in the new film?
Speaker 2: Maybe in the new film?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Right? Do you think though, because I remember that they
Speaker 5: were huge, because you said, this is eighty seven, So
Speaker 5: I was in grade three and I remember it's being
Speaker 5: massively popular. So I was probably at that age where
Speaker 5: everyone I didn't know what they were. I didn't know why.
Speaker 5: I knew as a Star Wars thing. Yeah, everyone loves
Speaker 5: so clearly for kids, like they're basically teddy bears, right,
Speaker 5: So that all makes sense. But is it a better
Speaker 5: film if there aren't that whole thing is gone? Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean it's it's a much shorter film.
Speaker 1: It's a much shorter film. It does provide Star Wars
Speaker 1: I think has been committed to. There being some laughs
Speaker 1: along the way some levity, and I think it gives
Speaker 1: you that it gets I mean, you could take place,
Speaker 1: you know, it could be Hahn could also have this
Speaker 1: adventure with Layer and the droids and Chewy elsewhere. It
Speaker 1: does give you this beautiful final act that we and
Speaker 1: there's other ways of achieving it, There's no doubt, but
Speaker 1: the three points, the three stories going in that third
Speaker 1: act where you've got the battle in the empress throne room,
Speaker 1: which is just incredible. You have end or going on
Speaker 1: in the Ewoks. You know, the underdogs. You know you're
Speaker 1: on our turf, we know, and it invitded me. Actually
Speaker 1: funny enough of I watched thirteen Larves recently and I responded,
Speaker 1: really and I didn't notice part of the story. This
Speaker 1: is the story of you know, Richard Harris onon Train
Speaker 1: of the Year. But you know the divers who went
Speaker 1: into the rescue the tight and there was a local,
Speaker 1: a local who they couldn't the warter kept on coming
Speaker 1: from above down into the caves and then they had
Speaker 1: a drain and there was a local who.
Speaker 2: Basically got.
Speaker 1: Local bamboo, and kind of we was able to split
Speaker 1: them in a way that you could like time together
Speaker 1: the water, and it was amazing. I don't ever knew
Speaker 1: that happened, but I remember really responding to that guy.
Speaker 2: You know, that's how amazing local.
Speaker 1: Local knowledge, local knowledge is great, and that I thought
Speaker 1: of that when I was watching he Box local knowledge.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's like it's like the Vietnam War. You're on
Speaker 5: out for Afghanistan. You don't win in Afghanistan, you don't.
Speaker 5: They know, they know what they're doing.
Speaker 1: And it was actually a Californian forest. It was due
Speaker 1: for logging, so they were able to actually knocked down trees.
Speaker 5: Right. Did they end up logging it in the end
Speaker 5: or did they say, oh, you know what, now it's
Speaker 5: a movie.
Speaker 1: That was protect End or Protect End or Let's talk
Speaker 1: about Vader's mask off, because obviously it is actually before
Speaker 1: we do that. Did you sense there was a change
Speaker 1: in Vader even before that moment, because there is a lot.
Speaker 1: I certainly sensed there was more doubt about Vader once
Speaker 1: he was united reunited with Luke. They refer to each
Speaker 1: other as father and son. My take on it is
Speaker 1: now that Vader was having those doubts but could not
Speaker 1: see a way that he could make this week.
Speaker 2: So he was deferring to the emperor.
Speaker 5: That's interesting. I have to admit I didn't sense that.
Speaker 5: I would certainly defer to your judgment over mine.
Speaker 1: But it's almost new because I hadn't seen it for
Speaker 1: a while, and watching it, I was like, I just
Speaker 1: sense there's a the word sense movement in the force,
Speaker 1: but a sense that Vader was touch more passive in moments.
Speaker 5: But is that just due to the Emperor's presence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, possibly because he does.
Speaker 5: But even the emperor they have a massive fight. I
Speaker 5: think the reason I didn't think that was Luke walks
Speaker 5: in there very confident that you're not going to take
Speaker 5: me to the emperor. As he says that, right, there's
Speaker 5: a lie because I can't remember what he says before it.
Speaker 5: But he goes, and that's why you're not going to
Speaker 5: take it, because there's good in you and you're not
Speaker 5: going to do it. And he goes, all right, let's
Speaker 5: go see the emperor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's it did not work out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, even so Luke still holds onto the belief that
Speaker 5: this will work out. But that I just read that
Speaker 5: as the symbol to the audience that no, he's Vader's
Speaker 5: fully committed. Yeah, right, and I don't know, maybe that
Speaker 5: was meant to be a symbol that Luke's wrong, and
Speaker 5: so it's a bait and switch thing. I don't know.
Speaker 5: But from that, I mean that he clearly has regret
Speaker 5: at the last, the very last moment. Then his hand
Speaker 5: gets taken off, et cetera, and he sees that like
Speaker 5: when the moment of truth arrives, Vader discovers what's true. Right,
Speaker 5: But up until that moment, I don't Actually I don't
Speaker 5: know when it switched if if it wasn't at that moment.
Speaker 5: But I, like, I say, I've seen it once and
Speaker 5: I was just like, oh my god, his helmet's not on,
Speaker 5: like you know, I was still processing all.
Speaker 2: That yeah sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's the first time I kind of
Speaker 1: saw it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe you've watched it so many times, maybe you've well.
Speaker 5: Is there a prevailing view?
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I haven't really discussed that really with I mean, I
Speaker 1: probably haven't dicussed Return of the Jedi probably with anyone
Speaker 1: for since seven.
Speaker 5: Right, Okay, really I assumed you were at all the conventions.
Speaker 1: No, I'm too busy Collingwood Games.
Speaker 5: Isn't that one of the you look like stormtroopers, simply
Speaker 5: the dark side.
Speaker 2: Let the mask coming off? What what?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 1: What did you make of it? Were you expecting to
Speaker 1: see James Earl Jones or what?
Speaker 2: What was?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 2: We were your thoughts of how that was played out.
Speaker 1: I do find it interesting that it was basically dragging
Speaker 1: like this, this guy they've been after all these years,
Speaker 1: and he's dragging you know, Darth Vader through to that start.
Speaker 2: Nobody seems to give a ship.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is true. Actually I hadn't thought about that.
Speaker 5: But then again, with you know, things that.
Speaker 2: Were going pair shaped by then, everyone was out for themselves.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's probably was that before after the ship came
Speaker 5: into that control room.
Speaker 2: That might have been just before. It was around that
Speaker 2: time that stuff's that stuffs happening.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I I mean I think that was just
Speaker 5: a thing where, oh my god, I can't believe they're
Speaker 5: doing this.
Speaker 2: In fact, let's have a listen to Vader Vader's mask
Speaker 2: coming off.
Speaker 4: No go shut.
Speaker 5: Leave, No, you're coming with me.
Speaker 6: I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you. You're right,
Speaker 6: you're all right, you're right about me.
Speaker 1: Anything it is, it is actually beautiful and that doesn't
Speaker 1: come across as as Malkish is. The general hospital scene
Speaker 1: we played for Mendo between Luke and Sohan and Lay earlier,
Speaker 1: it's actually quite sweet. I like that the the you know,
Speaker 1: all the mechanics of the you know, the voice is
Speaker 1: human stripped away.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he ceases to be the machine. Hence everyone's wrong
Speaker 5: when he says he's more machine than men. But I
Speaker 5: think what's beautiful about that is the idea that whether
Speaker 5: I live or dies not, what's important. What's important is
Speaker 5: that I've I'm redeemed, and so you've saved me. That's it.
Speaker 5: That's what matters. And that's that's a big idea.
Speaker 2: You know, that's.
Speaker 5: It's it's big because it's about something more than the
Speaker 5: politics of it. It's it's about something really human. Right Yeah.
Speaker 5: And I but the thing I was hanging on as
Speaker 5: soon as I saw the thing off, the mask off,
Speaker 5: I was like, what's his voice going to be?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, because that's all I want to say. It was like,
Speaker 5: is Darth Vader's voice a product of a machine? Because
Speaker 5: I never thought of him as a machine. Weirdly, like,
Speaker 5: until Ibi one said he's more machine than man, I
Speaker 5: was like, oh, I'd never really maybe I forgot a
Speaker 5: moment in one of the previous ones where it got revealed.
Speaker 1: When I first watched the Star Wars as like an
Speaker 1: eight year old, I thought he was so I had
Speaker 1: the opposite thing coming from a very different agent and
Speaker 1: point of view, and so I knew he was exactly is.
Speaker 2: Before I knew any of that, I either thought he's
Speaker 2: a robot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, because you know my world was about robots,
Speaker 1: not necessarily humans within.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: It turns out his cry, yeah, yeah, he's inside this.
Speaker 1: I do wonder if Darth Vader could tell a difference
Speaker 1: between zebra crossings and work at the peatures for identification
Speaker 1: purpose A good point, that's how you would because he's
Speaker 1: a man, he's kind of a robot.
Speaker 5: Well, this is the alternative way that that scene with
Speaker 5: Obi One goes. Obi One says he's more machine than man,
Speaker 5: and Luke says, we'll hang on.
Speaker 2: Through traffic a many trucks. He's like, I'm still it
Speaker 2: still makes me nervous. I still don't know.
Speaker 5: But they did.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I thought it was amazing about obviously he's lying down
Speaker 5: on the ground, but they did this amazing thing of
Speaker 5: making someone who's so huge and formidable look meek, yeah,
Speaker 5: and old and physically incapable. Really yeah, and that's yeah.
Speaker 5: I thought that was really well done. The gashes on
Speaker 5: his head and all that, And obviously he's totally white,
Speaker 5: and I assume that's just what he looks like because
Speaker 5: he's so decrepit. I think that's the idea, rather than
Speaker 5: that he's covered in something. So it's almost like what
Speaker 5: you're seeing there is the toll of the dark him.
Speaker 5: I think that he's he's submitted him his succumbed to
Speaker 5: the dark side. And it's not that that makes you
Speaker 5: more powerful, it's that that actually destroys you. And and
Speaker 5: he's in the end destroyed and all he can do
Speaker 5: is finally redeem himself, but only with his last breath,
Speaker 5: because that's all that the dark sides left him with. Really,
Speaker 5: that's kind of how I see it. I don't know
Speaker 5: if that's the way it's meant.
Speaker 2: To be or what if it No, I think that's
Speaker 2: a good read.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I thought, yeah, I thought it was a
Speaker 5: beautiful moment, and the voice was crucial to me, the
Speaker 5: fact that he in that moment, he's not Vader anymore,
Speaker 5: because they set up this idea that Vader and any
Speaker 5: kind of different things and different people, or one's not
Speaker 5: a person, and so it was kind of good in
Speaker 5: the end that there was nothing about him that was
Speaker 5: Vader at all. Vader was completely gone in that moment.
Speaker 1: Well, you have passed once again. Once again. What's your
Speaker 1: favorite Wars film?
Speaker 5: I think I'm saying. I think I'm saying in Past.
Speaker 2: Strucks back, Okay, it's fine as well.
Speaker 5: Is that it's a popular answer.
Speaker 2: He is a very popular answer.
Speaker 5: How many Jedi people would you say?
Speaker 6: There are.
Speaker 2: What have been Jedi people would say Return of the Jedi? Oh, sorry,
Speaker 2: with the actual jedis coming out, so it does? It does?
Speaker 1: I think the Jedi might have been I loved it
Speaker 1: when I came out, and it might have been mine
Speaker 1: the same way Temple of Doom was my favorite. Indiana
Speaker 1: Jones and I got a bit older, and I thought
Speaker 1: that Raiders is a better movie, I would say, And
Speaker 1: then New Hope, I'd say Empire is probably considered most
Speaker 1: people's favorite, and New Hope closely behind, and Jedi third.
Speaker 1: And then there's a whole get into a whole other
Speaker 1: thing of like where what people think of some people
Speaker 1: love the prequels, some people love the.
Speaker 5: That's that's far too complicated for me to try and
Speaker 5: figure out.
Speaker 1: That Rogue one might be an interesting one for you
Speaker 1: to watch, right, okay, because that leads directly into the
Speaker 1: New Hope and the new series and or is based
Speaker 1: in that world.
Speaker 5: Right, how many episodes in a series like that?
Speaker 2: I think? Also?
Speaker 5: Okay, so it's like a long film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the prequels that you know, it's up to you
Speaker 2: now you're on your own time.
Speaker 5: I have seen one of them in a film in
Speaker 5: a cinema in Adelaide. I remember nothing about it except
Speaker 5: that I thought it was terrible.
Speaker 1: But you could cheat potentially and kind of have a
Speaker 1: bit of a catch up and then watch Revenge of
Speaker 1: the Sith, which is the best of the prequels, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think, And that's like like Vader becoming Vader, and
Speaker 1: the rest is he's like a kid basically, and he's
Speaker 1: a kid.
Speaker 5: And yes, one of the ones I saw, we look
Speaker 5: like a teenager.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I could bring you up to speed
Speaker 1: to get you if you want to watch Revenge a Sith.
Speaker 5: But I put it this way, I think Empires my favorite,
Speaker 5: but we could have a conversation like one day and
Speaker 5: after half an hour I would say Jedi, Like you
Speaker 5: could convince me if you if you set out to say, now, look,
Speaker 5: Jedi is the best.
Speaker 2: You just got to If anyone said Turn of the
Speaker 2: Jedi is my favorite, I wouldn't be like what.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's just that the flaws of it
Speaker 5: are so obvious. That's the problem. But I also think
Speaker 5: it has the best moments. Yeah, so it's at the
Speaker 5: highest points of the trilogy, but as at the lowest,
Speaker 5: and so I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: Some fun facts before we head off. It took six
Speaker 1: people to work Jabber and his animatronic obviously, and the
Speaker 1: Jabba when he moved, because we love it. Of sound
Speaker 1: design facts, when he moved Bilbert ben Bert, it's the
Speaker 1: sound of him running his hands through a cheese casserole,
Speaker 1: which is the perfect thing for Jabber. I think I
Speaker 1: think he would love a bit of mac and cheese.
Speaker 1: And also another sound design in Vaders footsteps were recorded
Speaker 1: in an underground tunnel under the Golden Gate Bridge give
Speaker 1: him an ominous feel.
Speaker 2: That makes makes sense.
Speaker 5: I should have done it at Alcatraz. Imagine that what
Speaker 5: a story that.
Speaker 1: Would then you could actually sell, yes, hike up the price.
Speaker 1: They called the working title for this movie was Blue Harvest,
Speaker 1: and part of that was to keep because obviously it
Speaker 1: was the biggest movie in town, to keep the secrets
Speaker 1: scripts and were tightly guarded, but also to keep location
Speaker 1: costs down because as soon as you're saying we want
Speaker 1: to shoot at your blah blah your forest, or we
Speaker 1: want permits and you say we're shooting the third Star
Speaker 1: Wars movie, people get onto it. So Blue Harvest was
Speaker 1: the They were also originally titled Revenge of the Jedi,
Speaker 1: and that was almost they went almost to the end
Speaker 1: of calling it Revenge of the Jedi, and then George
Speaker 1: Lucas realized that it's not part of a Jedi's.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not revenge. That's the whole point.
Speaker 2: That's the whole point.
Speaker 5: How did they not did they not read that scene?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, obviously ben Kenobi.
Speaker 5: Didn't also allowed them to have a Revenge of the
Speaker 5: Sith all those years later, what they did.
Speaker 1: That was part of the thinking they eventually because they
Speaker 1: did think Revenge of the Jedi is a catchier title, yes,
Speaker 1: but it didn't work. And Selacious Crumb who's a little
Speaker 1: like puppet thing on Jabba's tail when he was that
Speaker 1: Pubble was taking the C three pos I am Anthony
Speaker 1: Daniels had a panic attack. It's a little bit of
Speaker 1: fun and was also in the Bible. It's really yeah,
Speaker 1: it's some mentioned somewhere in the Bible. There's no ewoks though.
Speaker 5: Oh really? Yeah, okay, have you read through to the end
Speaker 5: of Revelation because it might be in Revelations.
Speaker 2: I mean I thumbed through the Bible and Jesus did say.
Speaker 5: I just know there's a lot of stuff in Revelations.
Speaker 5: If you told me there were eos, I would believe you.
Speaker 1: But mate, thank you so much. Great the chat not
Speaker 1: just a Return of the Jedi, but Four Lines. I
Speaker 1: recommend checking that out as well.
Speaker 2: No worries.
Speaker 5: Thanks for watching it, my pleasure.
Speaker 2: See you on the projects.
Speaker 8: Should we go to work, Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: There it is.
Speaker 1: Loved having that conversation with my mate while about Return
Speaker 1: of the Jedi and Four Lines, I think of had fascinating
Speaker 1: insights into both of those movies, especially in Return of
Speaker 1: the Jedi, well not especially, I thought the Four Lines
Speaker 1: discussion I loved, but as far as the ongoing.
Speaker 2: Star Wars trilogy. To hear somebody speak about a movie
Speaker 2: that has been so discussed and.
Speaker 1: Torn apart in a way, not in a necessarily a
Speaker 1: bad way, but analyzed the here fresh perspective, I thought
Speaker 1: was really interesting.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed it as well. Just a couple
Speaker 2: of things.
Speaker 1: We are getting a lot of speak pipes and we're
Speaker 1: not airing them at the moment because we just the
Speaker 1: way we're recording these, we're recording them a little bit
Speaker 1: in isolation, a little bit.
Speaker 2: We're a little bit disjointed at the moment, but we
Speaker 2: will catch up.
Speaker 1: And I want to thank thank you for all the
Speaker 1: emails and your speak pipes, keep them coming. Also, thank
Speaker 1: you to everyone who came to their live show at
Speaker 1: the in the Brussel Valley for the Grapes of Mirth
Speaker 1: festival that Merrick Watts and his team put together. What
Speaker 1: a fantastic weekend that while and the live show with
Speaker 1: Nazim Hussein and Merrick Watts discussing the movie one of
Speaker 1: my favorite movie, Sideways, was just it was a magical experience.
Speaker 1: We absolutely loved it. And that will be available in
Speaker 1: a few weeks right here for everybody.
Speaker 2: To listen to, but next week is a show.
Speaker 1: There's also was recorded live at an event on the
Speaker 1: Sunshine Coast, actually in Calowndra great conversation with w make
Speaker 1: Shane Jacobson, one of the absolute journeymen and quadruple threats
Speaker 1: of Australian showbiz. We recorded it that he That's not
Speaker 1: My Dog Festival and each live event we've had they've
Speaker 1: been very different. We've had Jude Lucy at the Melbourne
Speaker 1: International Comedy Festival, Tom Gleason at the Brunswick Ballroom, the
Speaker 1: zem who's saying in a wine cellar with Merrick Wants.
Speaker 1: This was done outdoors and it's a very different vibe,
Speaker 1: but it's a lot of note needs.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: But it was just great to get Shane's perspective and
Speaker 1: he's chatting about a film from off the top of my.
Speaker 2: Head nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's Trainspotting, Danny Boyle, we've seen the Rise of
Speaker 1: You and McGregor, Robert carlisles in there. It's a cracking movie.
Speaker 1: I probably write it as a perfect movie. I think
Speaker 1: it's pretty brilliant and we'll be doing that on the
Speaker 1: Sunny Sunshine Coast, me and Shane Jacobson on stage in
Speaker 1: a park somewhere talking about train spotting. You don't want
Speaker 1: to miss it until then, take care, and so we
Speaker 1: leave Old Pete save Lansall, and to our friends of
Speaker 1: the radio audience, we've been a pleasant good name.