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Speaker 1: The concept of furries.

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Speaker 2: It's been around for a while now, you've likely heard

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Speaker 2: of furries. Today on the podcast, we look at what

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Speaker 2: this is all about and whether we should be worried.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to a Happy Families podcast today, Real parenting solutions

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Speaker 2: for some really big parenting problems. This is Australia's most

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Speaker 2: downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson and

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Speaker 2: Hun Furry fandom gaining visibility and youth culture.

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Speaker 1: There's more and more noise about it.

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Speaker 2: We need to understand what it means, especially from mental

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Speaker 2: health perspective. In the past few days, this has been

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Speaker 2: blowing up in the media. I was on the Today

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Speaker 2: Show yesterday talking about it. This was the reaction of

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Speaker 2: Lucy Zelich on two GB.

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Speaker 3: So withfurry is somebody that identifies as an animal, right

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Speaker 3: as a dog, a cat, you name it, right, And

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Speaker 3: this is something that was brought to my attention. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I was phoned by parent this afternoon to tell me

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Speaker 3: that this is going on in their particular area. And

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Speaker 3: I was also made aware of it the other day

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Speaker 3: that this is occurring at a Catholic school in the

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Speaker 3: Hills district where they do have a furry. The parent

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Speaker 3: that spoke to me today said that at their school

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Speaker 3: that they've been made aware of this it is a dog,

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Speaker 3: and that they have been told the students have been

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Speaker 3: instructed that when this child barks like a dog, that

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Speaker 3: they are just they are to act as though this

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Speaker 3: is completely normal. It is a disgrace and it's an

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Speaker 3: absolute and utter embarrassment that we as a Western society

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Speaker 3: have allowed things like this to happen, that we are

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Speaker 3: encouraging this behavior. At what point are we going to

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Speaker 3: realize that we've started to make grave mistakes in the

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Speaker 3: way that we are raising our next generation. You've got

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Speaker 3: parenting websites that are saying adopt the art of parenting

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Speaker 3: without saying no, alternative ways of saying no to a child.

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Speaker 3: Don't give your child.

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Speaker 1: Trauma and say no to them.

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Speaker 3: How about you give the kid a smack and teach

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Speaker 3: them some respect and to actually grow up as a responsible,

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Speaker 3: functioning adult that's daring to contribute to society and not

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Speaker 3: put on a damn collar and act like a dog

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Speaker 3: in a classroom.

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Speaker 4: There's some fighting words there.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot going on.

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Speaker 2: So the first thing we need to emphasize is that

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Speaker 2: smacking is not going to solve this problem. Lucy might

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Speaker 2: have some big opinions around this, and I want to

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Speaker 2: support several of them, but smacking your children is not

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Speaker 2: going to be helpful. And the other thing that I

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Speaker 2: quickly want to jump in with, even though I know

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Speaker 2: that you're bursing to jump in, is Garble Marte and

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Speaker 2: his everything that happens in our life as a result

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Speaker 2: of childhood trauma. I don't think that that's helpful in

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Speaker 2: this conversation either. Outside of that, though, go for it,

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Speaker 2: missus Happy Families. As a non psyche person, what are

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Speaker 2: your thoughts?

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Speaker 4: I think Lucy's spot on when she says that as

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Speaker 4: a society, we're doing our children a grave injustice when

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Speaker 4: we let this become normal. Our children are losing their

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Speaker 4: identity just about every facet. There is no clear cut anymore,

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Speaker 4: There is no given, there is no just I can't

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Speaker 4: imagine trying to navigate this without the maturity and life

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Speaker 4: experience as a five year old, as a seven year old,

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Speaker 4: as a ten year old, as a fourteen year old,

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Speaker 4: and the children in the room are wanting us to

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Speaker 4: be the adults.

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Speaker 2: So a couple of things that are important here we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about identity development shortly. This is very

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Speaker 2: much an identity issue, but it's an identity issue because

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Speaker 2: of this thing that they call the affirmation model. So

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Speaker 2: in psychology across much of the Western world right now,

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Speaker 2: especially in Australia, when somebody identifies as anything at all,

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Speaker 2: the psychological focus is on affirmation rather than what psychology

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Speaker 2: once did, which was to ask questions and help a

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Speaker 2: person to do the inner work to figure out who

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Speaker 2: they are, what they value, on what's really going on.

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Speaker 2: I have all the compassion in the world for any

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Speaker 2: family who is going through this, For parents who are

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Speaker 2: going through this, this is going to be a really

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Speaker 2: big challenge. For children who are going through it, it's

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Speaker 2: even bigger. But I'm also a little bit frustrated because

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Speaker 2: I don't believe that it's necessary that families go through this.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I want.

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Speaker 2: To talk about as we discuss what it is to

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Speaker 2: be a furry and how this works.

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Speaker 4: So how popular is this? I mean, we're seeing this

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Speaker 4: more and more. I'm seeing it even when we're out

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Speaker 4: on the streets.

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Speaker 2: The visibility is blowing up, right, it really is.

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Speaker 4: But what is the data actually telling us?

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Speaker 1: So we don't have very much data.

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Speaker 2: Understandably, it's really hard to collect data in this particular arena.

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Speaker 2: The average age apparently is about twenty eight. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: while there are lots of kids who are starting to say, yeah, identify,

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Speaker 2: identify as a wall for a dog or a pussy

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Speaker 2: cat or whatever it is, the average age of a

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Speaker 2: quote unquote furry is twenty eight. So we are dealing

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Speaker 2: with mentally unstable adults primarily, although there's a trickle down

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Speaker 2: and it's primarily pushed by social media. What else do

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Speaker 2: we know about this? We know that there is a

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Speaker 2: higher proportion of young people who have gender identity issues

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Speaker 2: that also cross into furry territory. Okay, there's a website

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Speaker 2: that's out there. It's called First Science. Heaps of info there.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how credible this website is, primarily because

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Speaker 2: the focus is on affirmation and on reducing stigma. So

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Speaker 2: to me, that doesn't feel like it's going to be

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Speaker 2: balanced and neutral information to support our children's interests and

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Speaker 2: ensure they're well being. Fundamentally, though, I'm just concerned about

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Speaker 2: what's going on in the heads of kids and adults

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Speaker 2: who are identifying this way.

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Speaker 4: So what you're suggesting is that what we're dealing with

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Speaker 4: here is really a mental health issue.

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Speaker 1: I think it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there will be a lot of people who don't

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Speaker 2: like me for saying this, but fundamentally this is let's

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Speaker 2: have look at the stats. There was a twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: study done. It's really hard again, like I said, to

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Speaker 2: get good, credible, somewhat neutral information around this, but there

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Speaker 2: was a University of like Caado study twenty eighteen. There

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Speaker 2: were something like twelve hundred and forty nine twelve hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty furries from fifty seven countries, and what they

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Speaker 2: found was this, and this to me is alarming. Thirty

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Speaker 2: eight and a half percent of furries have reported an

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Speaker 2: attempt on their own lives. Twenty three and a half

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Speaker 2: have made multiple attempts on this nearly half, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about forty six forty seven percent scored in the clinical

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Speaker 2: range for anxiety, forty one percent with depression. So these

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Speaker 2: are obviously mental health challenges at rates that vastly exceed.

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Speaker 1: The normal general population.

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Speaker 2: In terms of what we see on average with our

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Speaker 2: typical population, there are definitely mental health challenges going on here.

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Speaker 2: I think that this comes down a little bit of parenting,

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Speaker 2: well not a little bit, probably quite a lot of

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Speaker 2: parenting as well, But fundamentally mental health, identity issues and

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Speaker 2: parenting I think are at the core of it.

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Speaker 4: So I guess a question to explore would be, is

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Speaker 4: the community, the furry community, actually attracting those who are

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Speaker 4: already struggling or is the community actually contributing to the issue.

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Speaker 2: And I would say yes to both. I would say

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Speaker 2: it's both column A and column B. When you've got

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Speaker 2: somebody who's struggling with all of these mental health challenges,

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Speaker 2: they're not doing the inner work. They're not really working

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Speaker 2: through the process that's required to understand who they are

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Speaker 2: and why they are struggling with either mental health issues

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Speaker 2: or trauma. I mean, let's pull on the Garble Marte

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Speaker 2: thing for just a second and say that there has

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Speaker 2: been some childhood trauma for some of these kids. They

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Speaker 2: adopt these animal alter egos. They're called personas, like as

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Speaker 2: opposed to a persona. It's a first sona very clever

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Speaker 2: play on words. Influences their identity. They create these alternative identities,

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Speaker 2: so they think that they really do need to go

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Speaker 2: to the toilet in kitty litter. They really do believe

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Speaker 2: that they can respond to people's questions with purring or

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Speaker 2: growling or barking, and they get all this affirmation, which

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Speaker 2: just reinforces the identity that they've got. And it's happening

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Speaker 2: quite often at this crucial time of identity development, during adolescence,

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Speaker 2: where they're supposed to be developing a healthy self concept,

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Speaker 2: and so you get this double edge sword, right because

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Speaker 2: when they step into furry land and they get all

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Speaker 2: this affirmation because so many people are afraid that the

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Speaker 2: kids are going to be hurt if we don't affirm them,

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Speaker 2: they get this temporary escape and it feels really good,

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Speaker 2: and then they also avoid any real world challenges. So

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Speaker 2: avoidance reinforces the anxiety and makes things worse. Fundamentally, this

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Speaker 2: identity issue and the mental health challenges that are associated

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Speaker 2: with it, to me again seem to.

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Speaker 1: Be at the core of it.

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Speaker 2: So after the break, we're going to talk about whether

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Speaker 2: or not it's a safety issue, and what we can

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Speaker 2: do is parents, if we're worried about our kids heading

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Speaker 2: in this direction. Okay, really complicated topic today, talking about

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Speaker 2: whether or not it's okay to affirm your children in

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Speaker 2: their furriness.

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Speaker 1: If that's where they've decided to go.

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Speaker 2: They want to wear a tail, they want to wear

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Speaker 2: a mask, they want to purr, they want to use

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Speaker 2: kitty litter or that kind of thing, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Something that we.

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Speaker 2: Need to sort of wave the flo around here is

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Speaker 2: the risk of harm to kids who and young adults

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Speaker 2: who ascribe to a furry identity. So when I was

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Speaker 2: doing the data search around this, research shows that predators

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Speaker 2: specifically seem to know who's vulnerable, and they particularly go

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Speaker 2: after vulnerable young furries. They know that there's going to

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Speaker 2: be some mental health challenges, that they're going to be

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Speaker 2: a little bit weaker, a little bit more likely to

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Speaker 2: accept somebody who's grooming them and accepting them and affirming

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Speaker 2: them and making them feel good about themselves. So there

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Speaker 2: are some concerning data. Again I'm questioning how good the

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Speaker 2: data is, but what data is there certainly indicates that

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Speaker 2: they're going to have some challenges there. We also know

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Speaker 2: they're much more likely to expose to explicit content online.

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Speaker 2: They're seeking out a whole lot of stuff, and like

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Speaker 2: I said, a lot of this is tied up with

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Speaker 2: gender identity stuff as well, So they're much more likely

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Speaker 2: to be exposed to pornography and very disturbing content around that.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately, in a study that I found in the

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Speaker 2: Archives of Sexual Behavior, a higher percentage of sexual motivation

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Speaker 2: among adult furies. So unfortunately, there seems to be a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of sexual misconduct that hobs around these gender identity,

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Speaker 2: sexual identity mental health challenge situations. When it comes to

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Speaker 2: young people who identify as something other than human.

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Speaker 4: I find this really curious because when I think about

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Speaker 4: anxieties and the experience is that we have when we're

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Speaker 4: feeling anxiety, the last thing we want to be is

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Speaker 4: the main focus in the room.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so when you dress up like this, I'll

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Speaker 2: make those noises that actually.

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Speaker 4: It amplifies it. Right, all eyes are on you for

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Speaker 4: all the wrong reasons.

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Speaker 2: What's really going on here is roleplay, so I don't

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Speaker 2: have to be me. Therefore, I'm not being judged for

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Speaker 2: who I am. It's my alter ego. It's my first

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Speaker 2: sona that's being judged. I've spoken to a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who work, maybe in an education space, dealing with

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Speaker 2: neurodevelopmentally challenged kids, autistic kids specifically, and they'll often say

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Speaker 2: that drama is one of the best places for these

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Speaker 2: kids to be because they get to stop being the

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Speaker 2: autistic kid in the class and they get to be

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Speaker 2: the character in the play. And I've spoken with a

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Speaker 2: couple of autistic people who have told me that one

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Speaker 2: of their favorite subjects is drama because they get to

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Speaker 2: let go of all the anxiety associated with me being

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Speaker 2: me and they get to put on that alter ego.

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Speaker 2: So I think that goes some way to explaining what's

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Speaker 2: going on here. Ultimately, though, when it comes to our children,

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Speaker 2: their safety, the mental health, their identity development. What I

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Speaker 2: want to share is six very clear parenting solutions that

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Speaker 2: can help in this context. So I'll run through them.

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Speaker 2: If I say anything that prompts something for you, just

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Speaker 2: hit me up with it, and let's see if we

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Speaker 2: can be effective in helping parents who are worried about

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Speaker 2: these things. The first thing is that this is going

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Speaker 2: to sound really harsh, but I think we need to

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Speaker 2: set absolute boundaries. Really, this is a red line moment.

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Speaker 2: We set this boundary and we say, in our family,

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Speaker 2: none of them animals. We are all humans. So we're

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Speaker 2: not going to have personas, we're not going to have

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Speaker 2: first suits, we're not going to have conversations about being

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Speaker 2: a furry. To me, this is a non negotiable now

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Speaker 2: that flies in the face of what the Australians Psychological

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Speaker 2: Society and many other psychological societies around the.

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Speaker 1: World would tell you to do.

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Speaker 2: They would tell you to be affirming because by not

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Speaker 2: affirming you could place your child in grave danger. But

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Speaker 2: if we can do it lovingly, I'm not talking about

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Speaker 2: being punitive and aggressive and saying that's it we're not doing,

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Speaker 2: but rather saying, kid, oh, I know this is really

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Speaker 2: hard for you, but we are going to call you

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Speaker 2: by your name and we are going to support you

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Speaker 2: to be a healthy, functioning human because that's.

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Speaker 1: What you are.

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Speaker 2: That's going to be far more effective in the long term.

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Speaker 2: We've just got to do it compassionately.

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Speaker 4: I think back to our tricky question a couple of

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Speaker 4: weeks ago with a parent who was concerned about the

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Speaker 4: sexy fun girl photos that her daughter was posting. Great

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Speaker 4: in relation to possible injury to future employments. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: And I'm sitting here as a parent thinking how does

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Speaker 4: this impact my child when they finally come out of

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Speaker 4: this phase, they'll be unemployable and decide that maybe I'm

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Speaker 4: not a furry anymore. Maybe I'm not a dog. Maybe

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Speaker 4: I'm actually a person who's got feelings and thoughts and

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Speaker 4: you know, hopes and dreams and aspirations.

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Speaker 2: The second thing that I want to emphasize is the

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Speaker 2: importance of digital monitoring. So we've talked about online safety issues.

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Speaker 2: That plays a really big role there, but the online

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Speaker 2: community will often affirm and amplify the challenges that your

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Speaker 2: child is struggling with. So if you've got a child

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Speaker 2: who's indicating that they have a preference for stepping into

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Speaker 2: furry land and they want to adopt a persona, they're

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Speaker 2: going to get so much support from online communities. Whether

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Speaker 2: it's on discord or whether it's on YouTube or whatever

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Speaker 2: platform they're using, they will get so much support there. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: as parents, we need to be involved in blocking furry content.

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Speaker 2: I think we want to block furry forums have I'm

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Speaker 2: not big on parental controls, but sometimes our children are

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Speaker 2: vulnerable and they need to be protected in including from themselves.

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Speaker 2: So I would say that that would be my second thing.

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Speaker 1: The online world.

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Speaker 2: The online community is an amplifier and a magnifier of this,

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Speaker 2: and it is not in our children's best interest to

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Speaker 2: be playing there.

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Speaker 4: I think back to my childhood. I don't have a

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Speaker 4: single incident where one of my friends thought they were

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Speaker 4: a cat or adult.

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Speaker 1: Didn't exist in the nineties or nineties any of that.

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Speaker 4: And I have to believe that social media plays a

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Speaker 4: huge part.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and unquestionably does. And it plays a huge part

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Speaker 2: in all the gender identity stuff and everything that's associated

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Speaker 2: with this. So for children to develop an identity and

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Speaker 2: do so in a healthy way, minimizing their access to

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Speaker 2: screens is going to make a really big difference. Third,

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Speaker 2: redirect their interests. I want to see parents channeling our children,

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Speaker 2: their children's creativity and interest towards healthy outlets like traditional

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Speaker 2: art and sport and conventional social activities. Get off the internet,

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Speaker 2: step away from anime, and get under the real world,

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Speaker 2: face to face with people who also do not think

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Speaker 2: that they are animal. Right, go and become part of

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Speaker 2: a team somewhere doing something, and it'll make a difference.

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Speaker 2: My fourth one got to build real world connections.

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Speaker 4: I think this is this is imperative right.

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Speaker 2: Relationship is the heart of well being, and typically if

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Speaker 2: you've got a child who's struggling with anxiety, struggling with depression,

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Speaker 2: my bed is that they are involved in social circles,

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Speaker 2: whether relational needs are not being supported. Therefore they are

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Speaker 2: going online. They're getting all the affirmation and support from

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Speaker 2: these online communities and that's where they want to be,

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Speaker 2: and they start to You become the average of the

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Speaker 2: five people you spend the most time with. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: we want our children to spend time in healthy, face

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Speaker 2: to face, analogue social opportunities rather than online communities.

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Speaker 4: And for our anxious children, we need to recognize they

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Speaker 4: are going to need our support in that process, like

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Speaker 4: hold my hand kind of support.

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Speaker 1: Not saying this is going to be easy.

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Speaker 4: It's not going to be as easy as saying we've

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Speaker 4: organized playdate, you go and play. These kids are going

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Speaker 4: to need your health integrating into their social circles more

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Speaker 4: times than not.

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Speaker 2: Two more points professional support, like if your child is

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Speaker 2: already involved in this, if your child is heading down

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Speaker 2: this path, you want to seek professional guidance immediately. But

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Speaker 2: you don't want to step into an affirmation situation. So

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Speaker 2: if you've got a psychologist who's saying, well, I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to affirm them in their furryness, find another psychologist.

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Speaker 2: This is not the person for you. You want a

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Speaker 2: psychologist who is going to say, we need to ask

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Speaker 2: some deep and probing questions here, and we need to

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Speaker 2: work on the gender issues, the identity issues, their screen usage,

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Speaker 2: their anxiety, their depression, their physical health, the sleep that

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Speaker 2: they're getting, the people and their relationship building skills. Those

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Speaker 2: are the things that are going to help your child

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Speaker 2: to thrive, not an affirmation of furry status. And the

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Speaker 2: last one is as parents, we've got and I said

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Speaker 2: this at the outset, I want to reemphasize it now

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Speaker 2: compassionate framing. Our job as parents is to focus on

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Speaker 2: protecting our kids, not punishing our kids. So our line,

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Speaker 2: our conversation points should be something like this. I love you.

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Speaker 1: I love you no matter what. I love you no

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Speaker 1: matter how you identify, no matter what you choose.

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Speaker 2: But I also love you too much to let you

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Speaker 2: risk your mental health by continuing down a pathway where

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Speaker 2: you start to think that you are not a human.

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Speaker 2: Because you are. You are a loved and needed and

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Speaker 2: valued and worthy human and part of our family. And

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Speaker 2: we are going to affirm that because that's who you are.

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Speaker 2: You're our son, you're our daughter. You're the one that

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Speaker 2: we will weep with as you work through these hard things.

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Speaker 2: That is going to be really, really hard, And I

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Speaker 2: know there will be some people who will say that

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Speaker 2: it could be dangerous for their kids. I'm so sorry,

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Speaker 2: but it's already dangerous. If your child is playing in

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Speaker 2: Furreyville right now and has adopted a Ferstsna, their anxiety

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Speaker 2: and their depression levels are almost certainly through the roof,

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Speaker 2: and the risk of them trying to take their lives

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Speaker 2: is already vastly higher than it would be if they

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Speaker 2: were developing like a typical young person. So I just

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Speaker 2: don't buy the line that you're endangering their life by

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Speaker 2: treating them like a person rather than a furry.

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Speaker 1: You need to wrap this up.

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Speaker 2: Final words, final action steps, final way to proceed. If

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Speaker 2: you're worried about this Number one, I just want to

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Speaker 2: make it really clear. This is not harmless fandom. Kids

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Speaker 2: who are playing in this area are usually dealing with

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of other issues, and it can be dangerous.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: The tragedy of this.

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Speaker 2: I really hate this because when a little kid wants

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Speaker 2: to dress up like Tigger or where a put a

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Speaker 2: tail on, a run around the house like we probably

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Speaker 2: did when we were kids once upon a time, that

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Speaker 2: was harmless fun, and now kids can't do that because

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Speaker 2: parents are paranoid because what if this turns into something

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Speaker 2: more than what it already is.

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Speaker 1: It's just so sad.

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Speaker 2: As parents, our job is protection. If we don't guide

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Speaker 2: our children's development, the online communities will, and.

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Speaker 1: They do it so well.

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Speaker 2: They groom brilliantly. And lastly, truly compassionate parenting means preventing harm,

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Speaker 2: not responding to harm, but preventing harm by drawing that

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Speaker 2: line in the sand. Any last words, if I have a.

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Speaker 4: Child who wants to at me, I want to tell

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Speaker 4: them how much I miss hearing their voice. And I

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Speaker 4: want to understand and know what it is that they're

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Speaker 4: feeling and how they feel about the world around them.

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Speaker 4: While ever they're barking at me, I can't. I can't

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Speaker 4: even begin to comprehend or understand them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Kylie, let's wrap this up. We will link to

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Speaker 2: the University of Bycato study. It's actually quite a balanced

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Speaker 2: study and maybe even a little bit too pro for

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Speaker 2: my liking based on my bias. Nevertheless, we'll link to

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Speaker 2: that in the show notes. The Happy Families podcast is

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like more information and more resources to

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Speaker 2: Make your family happier, you'll find it at happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com, dot a