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Speaker 1: Got anything good.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is the Christian O'Connell show podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey this is Christian. This is a podcast special. It's

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Speaker 1: our long form unedited chat with the one and only

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Speaker 1: Amanda Kenna. I adore Amanda. I think she's brilliant. I've

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Speaker 1: been a fan for years. Earlier in my radio career,

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Speaker 1: I had a crazy Australian boss and he used to

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Speaker 1: give me tapes of an old breakfast show used to

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Speaker 1: do with a brilliant man called Andrew Denton. So when

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Speaker 1: I moved here seven years ago, it's a great joy

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Speaker 1: to get to no Amanda. And if you've ever heard

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Speaker 1: my podcast that I did two seasons off the Stuff

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Speaker 1: of Legends, Amanda's episode is the one that gets the

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Speaker 1: most reaction. So it's a deep joy to share this

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Speaker 1: with you. This is the unentered version of my chat

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Speaker 1: with Amanda Keller, and we're talking about being parents. She's

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Speaker 1: involved in this brilliant new TV show called The Role

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Speaker 1: of a Lifetime, which you can enjoy every Tuesday night

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Speaker 1: on ABC and you can watch it whenever you want

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Speaker 1: on iView as well. It's called the Role of a Lifetime.

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Speaker 1: And as you listen to this, you've got any questions

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Speaker 1: about being parents or anything, send me an email. I

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Speaker 1: love talking about this stuff. It's a deep joy of

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Speaker 1: mine being a dad, and it's a lot to try

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Speaker 1: and work out how to do it the best you

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Speaker 1: can for your kids. So if you've got any questions,

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Speaker 1: email me Christian at christiano'connell dot com. Do AU. But

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Speaker 1: right now, let's go to the great, the one and

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Speaker 1: only Amanda Keller on the show right now. One of

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Speaker 1: my favorite people to talk to. I love her. I

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Speaker 1: think she's brilliant. The last time we spoke, she made

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Speaker 1: me cry. It was about Perrington. I think there'll be

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Speaker 1: tears again. But welcome back to the show, Amanda Keller.

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Speaker 3: Christian O'Connell. I've got my waterproof Misscara, and I'm ready

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Speaker 3: to go.

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Speaker 1: Great because the last time we spoke on the subject

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Speaker 1: of kids, I was getting ready to drop off my

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Speaker 1: eldest daughter at university. So get a load of this

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Speaker 1: this Sunday, a couple of days time youngest daughter two

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Speaker 1: years on will be dropped off at university. Then my

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Speaker 1: wife and I will have no kids up home. So

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Speaker 1: for a conversation about role of a lifetime can You

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Speaker 1: show on ABC, which started this week. Yeah, I'm my

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Speaker 1: wife and I at that big moment where it's of

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Speaker 1: course it's exciting. But you know when we drive away Sunday,

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Speaker 1: round about just after lunchtime, I know that we'll be

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Speaker 1: pulling up around the corner going bo, what's gone so quick?

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Speaker 3: Walking back into the house, that will be hard. Let

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Speaker 3: me ask you this, how long unto you're getting a

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Speaker 3: new dog?

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Speaker 1: Six months? I think towards the.

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Speaker 3: End of the day, I reckon make it six hours?

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Speaker 3: What I reckon get a dog because it doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: what you're feeling. This is something that everyone can love.

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Speaker 3: There's noise in the house, there's I am.

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Speaker 1: Fair in the silence, no genuinely no fear in the silence.

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Speaker 1: I remember, even for a year after the Ruby, our

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Speaker 1: first daughter to leave home, I kept getting out four

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Speaker 1: plates because there's always been four plates, and my youngest

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Speaker 1: daughter going, there's this three now dad, and so now

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Speaker 1: just to go back twenty years later, just two plates.

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Speaker 2: You'll be eating with your hands. You won't even bother

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Speaker 2: with plate.

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Speaker 3: What I found, though, with my sons who both left

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Speaker 3: home to study, is the dread of it was harder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah than the reality.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I'd felt it.

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Speaker 3: For years leading up, and actually when it happened, I'd

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Speaker 3: felt like I'd done so much grieving that the fact

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Speaker 3: I survived it was almost quite liberating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you mean. I think I've been

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Speaker 1: grieving for two years, right, because my wife and I,

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Speaker 1: even like a year ago, are like, why are you

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Speaker 1: getting upset now? It's not for another year, And I

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Speaker 1: couldn't work like that, and so I actually think it's

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Speaker 1: like letting out the pressure from a balloon, and so

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Speaker 1: I think I've let some of mine out already. I

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Speaker 1: think my wife's going to have the big explosion on Sunday.

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Speaker 1: Because of my hours and doing breakfast radio for twenty

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Speaker 1: seven years, I've never been there in the morning. So

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Speaker 1: my wife runs the house and has to do that

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Speaker 1: really tough part of the day, which is getting kids

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Speaker 1: ready for school. So suddenly removing that really from Sunday

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Speaker 1: is going to be I think she's going to really

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Speaker 1: feel it in the morning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's hard, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: My son was the other day and he wanted to

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Speaker 3: stay the night, which he doesn't normally, but he's going

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Speaker 3: to a party down the road and he said, can

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Speaker 3: I stay here? For the night, and I said, this

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Speaker 3: is your home. You don't have to ask permission to

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Speaker 3: stay here. Having said that, he then went and stole

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Speaker 3: about ten cans of tuna and made his way through

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Speaker 3: the fridge and did all that, lift clothes everywhere. But

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Speaker 3: even I was thrilled to see it.

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Speaker 1: Now, tell me this when so my kids, I'll always

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Speaker 1: call them kids. But they're eighteen and twenty year old

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Speaker 1: daughters now, and obviously you're Jack and Liam there what

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Speaker 1: are they midt? Early twenties now older your boys?

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Speaker 3: Well, this year Liam will be twenty four and Jack

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Speaker 3: will be twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we are, we're a different part of it.

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Speaker 1: It never stops. If anything, he gets a bit more complicated.

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Speaker 1: I think as they get older. But when you look

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Speaker 1: about we look back at your time as a parent,

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Speaker 1: especially in the teenagers, because I think there's two phases

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Speaker 1: to it. There's the up in two teens when it's

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Speaker 1: more just exhausting and I think a lot of admin

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Speaker 1: and are you dropping off? Then I've got to go

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Speaker 1: over then. And then when they become teenagers, it gets

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Speaker 1: into a ward of emotions and it's a completely different

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Speaker 1: kind of parent that you need to be. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: do you think when you look back at your style

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Speaker 1: of parents and what have you learned, What were your

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Speaker 1: big sort of learnings, and what were your big mistakes

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Speaker 1: as well?

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Speaker 2: Interesting, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Because this show is all about parenting and a lot

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Speaker 3: of parents are comparing themselves to other people on the

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Speaker 3: internet and seeing you know parents who are going who

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Speaker 3: are far more intentional. I don't remember being intentional. I

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Speaker 3: feel that these children of mine were almost like our

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Speaker 3: border collie. They kind of trained themselves. And that can't

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Speaker 3: be true because they've been shaped into very nice human

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Speaker 3: beings who are responsible and sensible and funny and all of.

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Speaker 2: That and loving.

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Speaker 3: But I don't remember setting out to be a certain

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Speaker 3: kind of parent. But the hard thing about parenting tweens

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Speaker 3: and teens now is that you have to parent in

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Speaker 3: two dimensions, in the real world and also in the

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Speaker 3: digital world. And my kids were kind of just at

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Speaker 3: the beginning of that, but children by and larger now

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Speaker 3: fully in the drop zone. And if you went out

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Speaker 3: for the day in our day, your parents knew what

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Speaker 3: kind of people you were hanging around with. Generically, they

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Speaker 3: kind of knew where you were and what you were doing. Now,

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Speaker 3: all of that is hidden on a screen and you

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Speaker 3: have no idea of the kind of influences that are

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Speaker 3: coming to hear.

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Speaker 1: And it's really hard to deal with that, right because

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Speaker 1: I had really hard Both my daughters over the years

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Speaker 1: were you know, bullied online and on their phones, and

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Speaker 1: we didn't really have any idea. It's only now they're

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Speaker 1: sort of ready telling us about it. And actually they

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Speaker 1: both sort of said, well, this is just the way

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Speaker 1: it is. You know, at least when we were kids,

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Speaker 1: if you had a bad day at school, when you

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Speaker 1: went home, that was just save space. You closed the

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Speaker 1: front door and at least you have that night. You

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Speaker 1: didn't know if your friends were doing something without you

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Speaker 1: or if you being excluded, and you had a night

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Speaker 1: just to regroup, and then you go back to school

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Speaker 1: on a brand new day. But now actually it's twenty

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Speaker 1: four to seven and hard to deal with that.

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Speaker 3: How can kids be robust enough to know that all

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Speaker 3: their friends are together and you're not. It would drive

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Speaker 3: me even now, I don't want to know any of that.

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Speaker 3: It would have driven me crazy as a teen. And

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Speaker 3: we didn't get our smartphones, our age group until we're

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Speaker 3: in our thirties or our forties. When they are invented,

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Speaker 3: but for kids who are now getting them younger and younger.

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Speaker 3: And that's one of the big things the show looks

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Speaker 3: at is what age is age appropriate for a child

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Speaker 3: to get a smartphone? And how can you help them

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Speaker 3: navigate what they see? I thought, Maggie Dan, who's a

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Speaker 3: parenting gurup, she's goad advised, she's so good, and she said,

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Speaker 3: make sure if your child comes to you because they've

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Speaker 3: seen something dreadful, something that's really upset them on their phone,

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Speaker 3: don't threaten to take their phone away.

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Speaker 2: Sit down with them, love them, discuss it.

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Speaker 3: Because if you're going to say I'm taking your phone away,

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Speaker 3: they will not come to you. So through all of this,

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Speaker 3: she also said the basic tenets of what a child

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Speaker 3: needs love, support, a loving home, open arms. She said

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Speaker 3: that is still exactly the same as it's always been.

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Speaker 3: The world is different, but those basics are still there.

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Speaker 3: So as parents we need to educate ourselves. As I said,

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Speaker 3: I was fully non intentional, whereas now I don't think

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Speaker 3: you can afford to be, but don't despair. The basics

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Speaker 3: are still the basics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true. I found that to be true.

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Speaker 1: The more that you always try to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you were leading with connection before going to sort of

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Speaker 1: correction or direction, because I still my wife, and I

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Speaker 1: still get this wrong. Like a twenty year old will

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Speaker 1: call and you get into that admin. Have you done this?

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Speaker 1: I thought you needed to do that, And you can

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Speaker 1: tell they're just going to stop calling you because it's

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Speaker 1: an end of stream. If you haven't done this, Why

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Speaker 1: didn't you do that? I thought we told you to

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Speaker 1: do that, And you just disempower them. And it's really

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Speaker 1: hard sometimes a parent to actually realize you don't have,

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Speaker 1: especially when it come teenagers. Your influence and control is

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Speaker 1: dwindling really really quickly, and so the biggest thing you

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Speaker 1: can have is connection with them.

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Speaker 3: I remember too that my mother and we didn't have

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Speaker 3: mobile phones. But you know, if I was going to

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Speaker 3: cop a lecture or just a nag, why would I

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Speaker 3: talk to them? Why would I phone them for that?

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Speaker 3: And I saw I was doing that with my younger son,

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Speaker 3: who was stuffing up his university admin and when he

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Speaker 3: first moved out, so well, those things are so hard,

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Speaker 3: and I kept thinking that surely by now I'll take

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Speaker 3: my foot off the accelerator with him, and I just

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Speaker 3: kept going and going, and every conversation was have you

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Speaker 3: done this?

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Speaker 2: Have you done that?

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Speaker 3: And once I stopped that, he now calls me every

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Speaker 3: day and even if I want to say have you

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Speaker 3: done such and such, I bite down on it and

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Speaker 3: I might text him later and say just a quick reminder,

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Speaker 3: but I don't make it part of our conversation.

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Speaker 1: And that's so much better way of doing it. Otherwise

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Speaker 1: it's just disempowering. The thing, my god, what I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get is a stream of you haven't you should?

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Speaker 1: You know? And so they feel less and less like

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Speaker 1: that they can have just a decent connection with you.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I would say to parents who've got

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Speaker 1: teenagers is, you know, I always try to. Even when

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Speaker 1: we were getting into areas of conflict, I would always

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Speaker 1: try to, and I'm emphasizing try to, because many times

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Speaker 1: I didn't, But I always would try and steer myself

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Speaker 1: back to speaking to them as I'd want to be

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Speaker 1: spoken to. And I thought that way, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: hopefully create some climate of I don't know, in power

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Speaker 1: them to try and figure out their own answers rather

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Speaker 1: than rather than me trying to tell them what I

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Speaker 1: think they should do. Was trying to help them figure

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Speaker 1: out their own answers and support that. Yeah, but that

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Speaker 1: was the holy grail. I got it roll more than wrong.

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Speaker 2: That is the holy grail.

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Speaker 3: And often parents are fully stressed, parents are burnt out,

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Speaker 3: parents are tired, parents are on their phone completely naked.

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Speaker 3: I saw some footage of parents who decided that they

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Speaker 3: didn't want their kids to see them on the phone

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Speaker 3: all the time, but they wanted to be on the phone.

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Speaker 3: The adults did and had work to do, so they

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Speaker 3: put it inside it children's books. Every time the kids

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Speaker 3: looked up, they thought their parents were reading. And that's

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Speaker 3: the image they'll have of their childhood, how well read

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Speaker 3: their parents were.

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Speaker 1: It's all fakery, And so what do you think are

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Speaker 1: the lessons that really stayed with you? So pe people

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Speaker 1: will listen to this right now, and it is a

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Speaker 1: privilege to be a parent, right it is. It'll always

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Speaker 1: be the biggest thing in my life, will be as

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Speaker 1: my journey as a dad. But I think, what do

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Speaker 1: you think is the biggest thing that it means to you?

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Speaker 3: I feel my life began when my children were born,

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Speaker 3: and I find it really hard that when I left home,

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Speaker 3: I didn't look over my shoulder that I left time

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Speaker 3: to study and that was it. That's when I feel

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Speaker 3: my life began when I left home. And the fact

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Speaker 3: that my kids are now at that stage, I think,

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Speaker 3: how can all the richness of the time we've had

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Speaker 3: together not be the important thing for them? So I

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Speaker 3: try to remember for me how it felt to find

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Speaker 3: my freedoms and to not be that needy parent. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to be needy, and I find that really

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Speaker 3: hard not to be needy, because really I just delight

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Speaker 3: in my children. I went overseas with them as adults

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Speaker 3: over Christmas, and just to hang out with them as

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Speaker 3: adults was.

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Speaker 2: Just such as you were the best.

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Speaker 1: The conversations out that we took our twenty year old

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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend with us overseas over Christmas, and this

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Speaker 1: is like a whole new area now for us, right,

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Speaker 1: and it was brilliant. It was just a different conversation.

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Speaker 1: You meet up a happy hour, you have a couple

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Speaker 1: of drinks, you play cards, you talk about life, and

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Speaker 1: they laugh for all these kind of like rigid opinions

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Speaker 1: you have about it all, and they roast you and

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Speaker 1: you laugh at yourself. And I was like having one

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Speaker 1: those moments you get the sometimes when you're in the experience,

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Speaker 1: but you're also above it and you think it this

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Speaker 1: doesn't get any better right now, there's nothing I need

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Speaker 1: or want in the world.

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Speaker 3: I had a wonderful moment. We're in Tokyo and we

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Speaker 3: went to karaoke bar and actually I told Robbie Williams

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Speaker 3: about this. We're in a tiny karaoke bar with the

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Speaker 3: only Wessners there. It was this tiny place and we

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Speaker 3: sang angels and we were all holding each other, my

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Speaker 3: two sons and I and my eldest son Lindover and

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Speaker 3: said I love you, mum. And I thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: those bubbles of bliss, that's all you're entitled to. Really, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's what happiness is. Are those moments that pass you

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Speaker 3: by and you need to acknowledge them when you see them.

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Speaker 3: And I thought, this is that moment, because it can't

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Speaker 3: be wall to all that, and it won't be the

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Speaker 3: natures of my sons, mean, it won't be that. But

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Speaker 3: that's not what happiness is. That's not the human condition.

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Speaker 3: These bubbles that float by, and I was luck. I felt,

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Speaker 3: I'm so lucky to be consciously enjoying the bubble as

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Speaker 3: it passes through me. It was just wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's beauty, beautiful, and you know what, you know,

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Speaker 1: I know we're saying like it's tricky. It is and

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Speaker 1: all of that's true. Right, It is overwhelming being a parent.

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Speaker 1: At times, it's just enough to get through the day,

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Speaker 1: and then you're trying to sort of figure out areas

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Speaker 1: that we don't fully understand. And often my wife and

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Speaker 1: I would meet in private by the washing machine and go,

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Speaker 1: what do we actually think about? What do we actually

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Speaker 1: think about that. I don't have a ready made opinion.

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Speaker 1: I haven't got time to listen to all the podcasts,

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Speaker 1: read all the flipping books, watch all the ted talks.

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Speaker 2: And it's intimidating.

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Speaker 1: All that's feel like you've been told off being a

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Speaker 1: crappy parent. I think the most important thing is actually

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Speaker 1: to remember the number one thing is the job is

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Speaker 1: about enjoying them, and then when you approach it from that,

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Speaker 1: even when there are moments of conflict where you've got

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Speaker 1: to sit down with them and have awkward conversations, like,

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Speaker 1: the job is to enjoy this. It's a ride. My

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Speaker 1: daughter told me that she goes, she goes. Oh, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I just read on TikTok the other day

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Speaker 1: that ninety five percent of my time with you is over,

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Speaker 1: and I was like.

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Speaker 2: It's the doomsday class.

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Speaker 1: She was like, oh, look you're starting to cry. Went yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: ninety five percent done. What. I couldn't go to sleep

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Speaker 1: that night. My wife went, and there's something on your

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Speaker 1: mind And I told her. She went, I can't go

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Speaker 1: to sleep right now. Five percent the time is done?

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Speaker 1: Oh my, And it is.

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Speaker 2: It is, and you have to let it go. Graciously.

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Speaker 3: We oa of that, im I know, I know, But

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Speaker 3: we are the generation that wants to stay connected. Our

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Speaker 3: parents let us go, whether they wanted it or not.

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Speaker 3: Because they I moved the other.

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Speaker 1: Side of the work. If I moved the other side

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Speaker 1: of the world, I left home twice. They must have

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Speaker 1: really hate that second trip to Australia. It wasn't enough

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Speaker 1: just to move three hours away. You now want to

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Speaker 1: move a hemisphere as well away. But yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's important to mind with all the information about

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Speaker 1: what it's a mind field at times. Actually the job

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Speaker 1: is to enjoy, enjoy raising these these people. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're launching rockets really that leave you and they were

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Speaker 1: never really yours. You know, and it goes. At the time,

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Speaker 1: it feels galatial the progress. You're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it's going so slowly today, And then

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Speaker 1: suddenly you look back and it's gone really quickly, you know.

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Speaker 1: And your kids are the ages there are. I've got

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Speaker 1: daughters now are eighteen and twenty. But I still love

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Speaker 1: deeply the journey of being a parent and trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how best to support them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I was just talking to some girlfriends the other day

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Speaker 3: who was saying, who are now sort of moving into

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Speaker 3: grandparent region, and it makes us all feel that we

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Speaker 3: weren't intentional enough or present enough when they were little,

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Speaker 3: but we're just busy raising them and keeping them alive.

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Speaker 3: Grandparents can treasure every single moment as a parent. That's

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Speaker 3: a luxury, but it doesn't mean you weren't a great parent.

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Speaker 3: None of us were awake enough to treasure every moment,

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Speaker 3: but those moments that you had, you know, all you do.

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Speaker 3: You need to do, as you say, is a rocket.

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Speaker 3: Set up a rocket that's leaving from a loving base.

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Speaker 3: Love your children, praise their achievements, and you're three quarters

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Speaker 3: of the way there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Even when I was having awkward conversations with the kids, which,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, if you ask my wife, she'd go,

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Speaker 1: has been pretty rare because I always love the word yes.

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Speaker 1: Is that I would always make sure that the new

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Speaker 1: they felt safe and loved, even if I was saying no,

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Speaker 1: or I was given them the news they didn't want

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Speaker 1: to hear. I didn't want them thinking I was withholding

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Speaker 1: love in any way. I'd always go no, and I

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Speaker 1: love you, And so I always wanted them to know

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Speaker 1: underneath all of that there was just a place of

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Speaker 1: unconditional love. Even though in the rare circumstances I ever

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Speaker 1: was going no, I don't want you doing that, and

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Speaker 1: normally let my wife have those more awkward conversations. I

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Speaker 1: always wanted them to know that they was always held

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Speaker 1: in love, no matter what they've done and what choices

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Speaker 1: they'd made.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we had a toy shop up the road

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Speaker 3: and I'd go in there once a week to buy

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Speaker 3: lego and she'd say, had a busy, weaker manner. I'd say, yep,

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Speaker 3: give me that one on the top shelf.

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Speaker 2: We can't love them enough, bribe them enough, And.

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Speaker 1: Do you think you and I would have done anything

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Speaker 1: differently if we watched a TV show like this, Role

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Speaker 1: of a Lifetime. I think this is a show with

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Speaker 1: the show is a great idea. There's a lack of

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Speaker 1: information and making it in easy, bite sized chunks. It's

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Speaker 1: just what mumms and dads need right now.

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 3: But I think that the age our kids are, particularly mine,

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Speaker 3: they didn't grow up with an iPhone in their hand,

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Speaker 3: so my ignorance isn't as pronounced as it is for

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Speaker 3: parents today. They really need to be across this stuff,

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Speaker 3: and particularly you know, I've got two boys, the stuff

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Speaker 3: of toxic masculinity or the imagery or the Andrew Tait

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Speaker 3: stuff or the Jim Junkie kind of stuff. Young boys

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Speaker 3: are open to some really strange and dangerous influences, which

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Speaker 3: also affects young ladies because of the way men are

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Speaker 3: reading this stuff. So be aware of what your boys

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Speaker 3: and your girls are reading online about what it is

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Speaker 3: to be a man, what is to be a lady

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Speaker 3: or a woman.

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Speaker 2: This stuff's hard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Amanda, great work on the show is much needed.

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Speaker 1: You know, it really is. It's mums and Danstay's need

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Speaker 1: information that's easy to die, to digest, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: because there's just not enough hours in the day to

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Speaker 1: just get through the day, let alone trying to read

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Speaker 1: up on how to become a parent when it's all

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Speaker 1: happening right in front of you, and it's the endless

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Speaker 1: stream of we haven't done this, what's for dinner? You know?

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Speaker 1: My school Jim kitt hasn't been washed. It's a lot.

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Speaker 1: So the show I think is a great service to

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Speaker 1: mums and dads right now, much needed as well, so

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Speaker 1: well done. It's on ABC on Tuesday nights. Roll of

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Speaker 1: a lifetime, Amanda. It's always a deep joy to chat.

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Speaker 3: To you, and good luck on Sunday. I'll wait for

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Speaker 3: the waters to rise with your Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. If you hear news the flooding in Melbourne, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's my wife and I and then I'll have that dog.

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Speaker 1: I probably lunch someone on the Monday now I think

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Speaker 1: about it all right, Amanda, Loss of Love, Love Chat,

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Speaker 1: You take it, Bye, go bye.

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Speaker 2: The Christian O'Connell Show Podcast