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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: First peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Just a heads up before we begin. This episode deals

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Speaker 2: with some distressing content relating to the death of and

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Speaker 2: violence towards First Nations people. If you need support with

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Speaker 2: any of the themes raised in this episode, you can

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Speaker 2: call one three Yarn. They can connect you with an

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal or Torys Strait Islander crisis supporter twenty four hours

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Speaker 2: a day.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the second of February. I'm Sam and I'm Zara.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday I chatted to Billy about the death of Tyree

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Speaker 2: Nichols at the hands of police in the US, and

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Speaker 2: we ended that episode with a quick discussion about the

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Speaker 2: fact that in fact, it wasn't a uniquely American thing

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Speaker 2: to have happened. Death in the justice system is very

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Speaker 2: much something happening locally in our backyard.

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Speaker 3: In Australia, this week, a Victorian coroner found the death

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Speaker 3: of Guninchmarra jajar Warong Wurajuri and Yorti Yota woman Veronica Nelson,

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Speaker 3: who died in custody in twenty twenty, could have been prevented,

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Speaker 3: and that her treatment in prison was quote inhumane and degrading.

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Speaker 4: The sounds of Veronica's last pleading calls for help echoed

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Speaker 4: around the courtroom, prompting me to ponder how the people

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Speaker 4: who heard them.

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Speaker 3: And had the power to help her did not rush.

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Speaker 4: To her aid.

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Speaker 3: In today's deep dive, we're going to look at what

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Speaker 3: happened to Nelson, what went wrong, and what the coroner

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Speaker 3: is recommending moving forward. But first, Sarah, let's do the headlines.

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi has said he wants to act

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Speaker 2: on rising crime rates in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 4: I want not to delay, but I also understand that

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Speaker 4: some of these issues are intergenerational. They aren't easy off

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Speaker 4: the shelf solutions.

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Speaker 2: While speaking in Perth yesterday, Albanizi said he's expecting a

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Speaker 2: report on ways to address the situation and we'll discuss

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Speaker 2: it with NT Chief Minister Natasha Files next week.

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Speaker 3: Three people accused of killing fifteen year old Perth boy

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Speaker 3: Cassier's Turvy have been charged with kidnapping and assaulting another

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Speaker 3: teenage boy. This attack is supposed to have occurred less

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Speaker 3: than a week before they allegedly killed Turvy. Western Australia

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Speaker 3: Police said the group chased down the boy before punching,

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Speaker 3: kicking and stabbing him during the attack.

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Speaker 2: The funeral for Cardinal George pell will take place today

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Speaker 2: amid plan protests near Saint Mary's Cathedral in Sydney. The

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Speaker 2: New South Wales Police had applied for a court order

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Speaker 2: to stop the protest, but a compromise was reached. The

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Speaker 2: Community Action for Rainbow Rights group agreed on an alternative

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Speaker 2: route for a peaceful man march through Sydney's CBD. The

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Speaker 2: protest will now go up to the street of the cathedral,

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Speaker 2: but not down it.

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Speaker 3: And today's good news. More wind and solar electricity was

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Speaker 3: generated in the European Union than fossil gases in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two, and that's the first time this has ever happened.

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Speaker 3: New analysis found that wind and solar accounted for twenty

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Speaker 3: two percent of the EU's electricity, which was slightly above

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Speaker 3: fossil gases at twenty percent. EU wind and solar use

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Speaker 3: generation overtook hydropower in twenty fifteen and cole in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to start this deep dive in the same

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Speaker 2: way that I started yesterday's, which is to say that

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Speaker 2: again we're dealing with some pretty difficult and distressing content.

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Speaker 2: But the story of Veronica Nelson, like that of Tyree Nichols,

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Speaker 2: is really important to engage with if you're feeling up

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Speaker 2: to it. If not, we will catch you again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: And just a note on cultural sensitivity, We're following the

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Speaker 2: lead of Nelson's family in using her name.

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Speaker 5: Returning to our top story for you, and the coroner

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Speaker 5: investigating the death of Aboriginal woman Veronica Nelson in custody

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Speaker 5: has described Victoria's bail law changes as a complete and

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Speaker 5: unmitigated disaster.

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Speaker 3: Veronica Nelson was deeply loved by her family and friends.

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Speaker 3: It's my first bond child, and she was my best friend.

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Speaker 3: She was kin and clear and uncompassionate. But she died alone,

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Speaker 3: locked in a prison cell, after calling for help forty

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Speaker 3: nine times.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Sam I know we're going to get into

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Speaker 2: some of the details about what happened to Veronica Nelson

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Speaker 2: and what we've learned from the coroner's report, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like a good starting place is just to quickly

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Speaker 2: explain what a coronial inquest is, because that's where we've

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Speaker 2: gotten a lot of this information from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, a coronial inquest is an investigation into the

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Speaker 3: cause of someone's death. They're generally held when circumstances around

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Speaker 3: the death are unclear or there's a broader issue of

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Speaker 3: public health and safety that needs to be examined. So

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Speaker 3: it's worth highlighting there that not every death leads to

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Speaker 3: a coronial inquest. Each and territory has their own coroner

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Speaker 3: and it's operated through that system. Now, it's not the

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Speaker 3: role of the coroner to lay blame or to find

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Speaker 3: anyone guilty of an offense, but if the coroner believes

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Speaker 3: an offense has been committed, they'll often give recommendations to

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Speaker 3: a Director of Public Prosecutions and a trial of potential

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Speaker 3: criminal charges can go forward from there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So if we bring it back to this story,

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Speaker 2: what did the coronial inquest hear about the details relating

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Speaker 2: to the death of Ronica Nelson.

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Speaker 3: Nelson died in a Victorian prison on the second of

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Speaker 3: January twenty twenty three days after she was detained. And

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Speaker 3: to give you some details on the circumstances of her arrest,

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Speaker 3: she was arrested on the thirtieth of December twenty nineteen

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Speaker 3: on outstanding warrants relating to allegations of shoplifting. She'd been

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Speaker 3: already released on bail after being charged with theft, but

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Speaker 3: when she failed to show up to court, a new

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Speaker 3: warrant was issued for her arrest. She was then taken

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Speaker 3: into custody and spent the night of the thirtieth in

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Speaker 3: Melbourne Custody Center before being transferred to a maximum security

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Speaker 3: prison the next day.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and so within that time timeline, when do we

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Speaker 2: know that things started to go wrong with Nelson's health.

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Speaker 3: Well, the first account of Nelson feeling unwell in the

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Speaker 3: coroner's report is in the van that brought her to

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Speaker 3: the prison, and that's why she vomited several times. She

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Speaker 3: received a medical assessment within an hour of her arriving

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Speaker 3: at prison, and this initial assessment went for fifteen minutes

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Speaker 3: and Nelson disclosed an opioid dependence. She was prescribed a

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Speaker 3: withdrawal pack and placed in her holding cell, where she

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Speaker 3: continued to vomit. On her first night, she used the

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Speaker 3: intercom in her cell over twenty times to request assistance.

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Speaker 3: She was given medical treatment and was moved to a

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Speaker 3: clean cell the next day, but her health didn't improve.

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Speaker 3: In the early hours of the next morning, she used

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Speaker 3: the intercom to report that she needed help and was

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Speaker 3: quote cramping something shocking. A nurse spent approximately two minutes

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Speaker 3: with her at one thirty six am, giving her paracetamol

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Speaker 3: and something for her nausea. Nelson was then heard wailing

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Speaker 3: in pain for the next two hours and complained of

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Speaker 3: worsening cramps and continued vomiting. At three point fifty six

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Speaker 3: an officer told Nelson to stop screaming because she was

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Speaker 3: keeping the other prisoners awake. At three point fifty eight am,

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Speaker 3: the officer told Nelson her only option was to return

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Speaker 3: to the medical center, but she said they quote probably

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Speaker 3: can't give you anything else. Nelson said she would stay

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Speaker 3: in her cell. Nelson was found deceased in her cell

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Speaker 3: by officers on the morning of the second of January,

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Speaker 3: four hours after their last contact with her.

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Speaker 2: It's just an absolutely horrific story, especially when you run

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Speaker 2: through it with all of that detail. Presumably the coroner

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Speaker 2: has examined this detail and come to a conclusion. What

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Speaker 2: did the inquest find?

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Speaker 3: Victorian coroner Simon McGregor found that the treatment of Nelson

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Speaker 3: leading up to her death was quote inhumane and degrading.

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Speaker 3: One of the key things a coroner sets out to

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Speaker 3: find is a cause of death, and in this case,

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Speaker 3: the overall cause of death was found to be complications

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Speaker 3: of withdrawal from chronic opiate use, as well as malnutrition

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Speaker 3: caused by an uncommon condition called Wilkie syndrome. It can

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Speaker 3: cause pain, nausea, vomiting, and can result in malnutrition and dehydration. Now,

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Speaker 3: the coroner found that Nelson's death could have been prevented

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Speaker 3: if she had been transferred to hospital at any point

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Speaker 3: between her arrest and passing away. One of the issues

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Speaker 3: McGregor highlighted was the stigma surrounding drug use, and McGregor

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Speaker 3: went as far as to find that this stigma changed

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Speaker 3: the way law enforcement responded to Nelson's condition. He also

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Speaker 3: found that Nelson received no culturally specific support, which is

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Speaker 3: basically to say she didn't speak to anyone specifically trained

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Speaker 3: to be aware of the issues or stigma she might

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Speaker 3: face as a First Nation's woman.

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Speaker 2: When you hear all of that, you can't help but

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Speaker 2: hope that things will change in the future. And yet

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Speaker 2: we keep hearing stories like this. Can you take me

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Speaker 2: through some of the recommendations that the coroner handed down,

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Speaker 2: and I guess I want to know also will the

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Speaker 2: Victorian government actually be acting on those recommendations.

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Speaker 3: So we'll get to what though Victorian government said in

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Speaker 3: response in a minute, but first let me cover off

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Speaker 3: those Coronial inquest recommendations. McGregor made thirty nine recommendations to

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Speaker 3: avoid similar deaths from occurring, and high up on the

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Speaker 3: list was actually a recommendation to absorb the recommendations made

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen ninety one Royal Commission into Deaths of

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Speaker 3: First Nations people in custody. Even as far back as

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one, that review made three hundred and thirty

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Speaker 3: nine recommendations to address First Nations deaths in custody, but

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Speaker 3: many of those recommendations haven't been implemented yet. To keep

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Speaker 3: going through some of the recommendations, another major area of

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Speaker 3: concern for the coroner was the Victorian Bail Act. So

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Speaker 3: to give you some context here, in twenty eighteen, the

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Speaker 3: Victorian government passed laws which basically makes it harder to

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Speaker 3: grant bail, and this was one of the factors which

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Speaker 3: resulted in Nelson having bail refused. McGregor referred to these

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Speaker 3: changes to the bail law as quote a complete and

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Speaker 3: unmitigated disaster which have a discriminatory impact on First Nations people,

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Speaker 3: particularly First Nations women, and this has had a tangible

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Speaker 3: impact on First Nation's incarceration rates. A year after the

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Speaker 3: Bail Act changed, imprisonment rates increased and the rate at

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Speaker 3: which Aboriginal women were being in prison and nearly doubled.

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Speaker 3: To fix this, McGregor recommended an urgent review of the

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Speaker 3: Bail Act with the view to remove any part of

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Speaker 3: the law that unfairly impacts First Nations people.

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Speaker 2: When you were going through some of the issues that

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Speaker 2: have arisen, cultural sensitivity was the one that struck out

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Speaker 2: to me. What were the recommendations around.

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Speaker 3: That, Well, there were several recommendations made to increase cultural

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Speaker 3: sensitivity in dealing with First Nations people in these situations

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Speaker 3: and increase access to people in both the legal and

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Speaker 3: health field. With cultural sensitivity training and that's the important

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Speaker 3: bit and knowledge. For example, one recommendation was for First

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Speaker 3: Nations people in prison to have an option to consult

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Speaker 3: with a First nation's health practitioner within forty eight hours

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Speaker 3: of arriving in prison.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back right after this, okay, So can we

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Speaker 2: come back to my other question, which was how we

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Speaker 2: preventing this from happening time and time again. Is the

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Speaker 2: Victorian government going to implement these recommendations?

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Speaker 3: Well, the Victorian government has acknowledged the issues raised in

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Speaker 3: the coroner's report, and in particular Premier Daniel Andrews has

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Speaker 3: committed to overhauling the Bail Act. This was Andrew's speaking

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Speaker 3: to the media this week.

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Speaker 6: What's important is that I extend not only the government's

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Speaker 6: deeper sympathies to the Nelson family and say to them

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Speaker 6: that Ronica is in our thoughts, and her experience and

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Speaker 6: the terrible way in which she was let down and

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Speaker 6: failed will drive reform and change. Being no doubt about that.

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Speaker 6: We'll have more to say about those reforms quite soon,

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Speaker 6: and they will involve not just bail and a better

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Speaker 6: recognition in our bail laws of the difference the clear

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Speaker 6: difference between violent offending and non violent offending. But they'll

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Speaker 6: also involve other matters that go well beyond the law.

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Speaker 6: They go to issues of prisoner welfare and making sure

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Speaker 6: that vulnerable Victorians, whether that be because they are First

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Speaker 6: Nation's Victoria all for many other reasons are given the

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Speaker 6: support and care that they are entitled to as a

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Speaker 6: basic human right.

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Speaker 3: The premier has committed to this overhaul within months, saying

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Speaker 3: that the government needs time to get the legislation right.

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Speaker 3: The opposition has indicated they will work constructively with the

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Speaker 3: government to bring these reforms into effect. Corrections Victoria have

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Speaker 3: also said they will carefully consider the recommendations and that

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Speaker 3: they've already begun implementing new reforms for their prisons.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and then bringing it back down to a personal level,

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Speaker 2: what about Nelson's family, what happens next to them?

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Speaker 3: Well, the coroner referred the healthcare provider charged with looking

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Speaker 3: after Nelson that night to the Director of Public Prosecutions,

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Speaker 3: and that means that Nelson's family could end up receiving

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Speaker 3: a payout for damages from them. Nelson's family have also

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Speaker 3: already filed a civil case in the Supreme Court of

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Speaker 3: Victoria against the Victorian government. They've also filed a claim

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Speaker 3: against the healthcare provider and other parties and will be

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Speaker 3: keeping an eye on those cases moving forward. But of

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Speaker 3: course there's much bigger issues here at play, and I

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Speaker 3: want to end this episode by reading something that proud

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Speaker 3: wi Ajurie Woman, Professor Meaghan Williams said during the inquest

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Speaker 3: that really stuck with me. Our understanding in our culture

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Speaker 3: about us being spiritual beings that are connected to our

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Speaker 3: family and to our country all point to how inappropriate

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Speaker 3: it is for us to die alone, to die in

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Speaker 3: a disempowering institution, and to not pass on country, to

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Speaker 3: pass without having an opportunity for our spirit to become

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Speaker 3: free and to convey what we need to convey. From

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Speaker 3: a cultural perspective.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's much that we can add there,

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Speaker 2: especially given how beautiful those words are, but to say

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Speaker 2: that when you are reading stories like the ones we

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Speaker 2: covered yesterday that happen on a global scale, it is

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Speaker 2: important to remember that it is happening here in Australia

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Speaker 2: as well, and it's certainly something to keep reading about

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Speaker 2: and keep talking about if you need support with any

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Speaker 2: of the themes raised in this episode, you can call

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Speaker 2: one three yarn. They can connect you with an app.

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Speaker 2: Original Auturus Straight Islander Crisis supporter twenty four hours a day.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us on the Daily Oz this morning.

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Speaker 3: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to

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Speaker 3: hit subscribe so there's a TVA episode waiting for you

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Speaker 3: every morning. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then, have

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Speaker 3: a great date.