WEBVTT - Is the U.S. turning away from vaccines?

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<v Speaker 1>Before we jump into today's podcast, We've got a really

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<v Speaker 1>quick ask of you to ensure this podcast remains really

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<v Speaker 1>relevant and useful to everyone listening. We'd love to learn

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<v Speaker 1>more about you. We've put a short survey in today's

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<v Speaker 1>show notes and would be so grateful if you could

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<v Speaker 1>fill it out. It'll only take a couple of minutes.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks in advance for helping TDA. Now let's get into

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<v Speaker 1>it already, and this is this is the Daily this

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<v Speaker 1>is the Daily ODS.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>the eighth of August.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Sam Kazlowski, I'm Billy Fitzsimon's.

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<v Speaker 1>This week, US Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior announced

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<v Speaker 1>he's canceling twenty two vaccine development projects worth five hundred

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<v Speaker 1>million US dollars, specifically targeting mRNA technology used in COVID

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen vaccines. The decision has sparked concern from infectious disease experts,

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<v Speaker 1>who say could leave a man Erica vulnerable to future pandemics.

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<v Speaker 1>On today's podcast, we're going to dive into what these

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<v Speaker 1>cuts actually mean, why we're seeing such dramatic changes in

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<v Speaker 1>US health policy and where the similar changes could actually

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<v Speaker 1>come to Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Sam, this story all centers around RFK Junior, who

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<v Speaker 2>is now in charge of America's health policy. For anyone

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<v Speaker 2>who's not familiar with him, do you want to just

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<v Speaker 2>give us a quick overview about who is RFK Jr.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So this is the main character of this story,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd say so. Robert F. Kennedy Junior is Donald Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>Secretary of Health and Human Services.

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<v Speaker 2>He's kind of like our Minister for health exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's the Mark Butler of America. He's from the

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<v Speaker 1>famous Kennedy political dynasty. He's the nephew of former President

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<v Speaker 1>John F. Kennedy. Now, before entering politics, RFK was an

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<v Speaker 1>environmental lawyer, but over the past twenty years he's become

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<v Speaker 1>a really prominent vaccine skeptic. He's repeatedly questioned vaccine, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>during the COVID pandemic, and he linked vaccines to autism

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<v Speaker 1>despite overwhelming scientific evidence showing no connection there. He founded

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<v Speaker 1>an organization called the Children's Health Defense that spreads what

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<v Speaker 1>experts say is vaccine misinformation. And what's really significant now is,

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<v Speaker 1>as you said, he is in charge of America's health system,

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<v Speaker 1>so he oversees multiple health agencies. The ones that we

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<v Speaker 1>would know and be familiar with would be the CDC,

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<v Speaker 1>the Center for Disease Control, and the FDA, which regulate

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<v Speaker 1>and recommend vaccines and medications.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember the CDC, the Center of Disease Control, was

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<v Speaker 2>very prominent during the pandemic, so I think maybe a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of us would know it from.

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<v Speaker 1>There Doctor Anthony Fauci, he was the figurehead.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so this was a pretty dramatic move from RFK

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<v Speaker 2>Junior to cut funding for a lot of vaccines in

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<v Speaker 2>the US. Do you want to just break down exactly

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<v Speaker 2>what that announcement was this week?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure? So it was on Tuesday US time and RFK

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<v Speaker 1>got up and announced that the Department of Health and

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<v Speaker 1>Human Services will cancel contracts and pull funding for twenty

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<v Speaker 1>two projects. And when you bundle all of those projects together,

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<v Speaker 1>the total amount of funding being pulled is five hundred

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<v Speaker 1>million US dollars, which is about seven hundred and seventy

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<v Speaker 1>million Australian dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>And is this funding into the rollout of vaccines or

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<v Speaker 2>funding into the research of future vaccines.

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<v Speaker 1>It's more in that second bucket, So it's more about

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<v Speaker 1>the development of vaccines, particularly the ones that use mRNA

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<v Speaker 1>technology to fight respiratory viruses.

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<v Speaker 2>Remind me what that is.

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<v Speaker 1>So mRNA technology I'll get to in a sect. But

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<v Speaker 1>the respiratory viruses that we would know about from a

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<v Speaker 1>vaccine context would be COVID nineteen, the flu and bird flu. Familiar, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>And so the contracts being canceled, they involve some of

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<v Speaker 1>America's biggest pharmaceutical companies. We're talking about Pizer and Maderna,

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<v Speaker 1>and those are the companies that we know develops the

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<v Speaker 1>COVID nineteen mRNA vaccines. And so Kennedy comes out with

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<v Speaker 1>this video exp blaming his decision, and he says, to

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<v Speaker 1>replace the troubled mRNA programs, we're prioritizing the development of safer,

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<v Speaker 1>broader vaccine strategies like whole virus vaccines and novel platforms

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<v Speaker 1>that don't collapse when viruses mutate.

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<v Speaker 2>And to translate that into US non scientific yes, folk.

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<v Speaker 1>So basically what he's saying there is they're putting energy

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<v Speaker 1>and money into developing a universal vaccine. So what's one

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<v Speaker 1>vaccine that can adapt on the fly within the human

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<v Speaker 1>body and fight any virus? That comes along the weakness

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<v Speaker 1>with the mRNA vaccine. In Kennedy's view is that with

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<v Speaker 1>every iteration of a virus like COVID, you need a

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<v Speaker 1>new modification to the vaccine. And so he's looking for

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of a universal vaccine, a one stop shot.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you like that, I get it, instead of a

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<v Speaker 1>vaccine that when a virus mutates, isn't useful anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that makes sense. And to go back to my

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<v Speaker 2>earlier question, what exactly is MRNS technology?

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<v Speaker 1>So basically, it's a type of technology where scientists create

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<v Speaker 1>a snippet of genetic code that carries instructions for how

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<v Speaker 1>the body can make a protein that can fight a virus.

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<v Speaker 1>So they pick a protein to target from a virus,

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<v Speaker 1>they inject the instruction manual into the code of the vaccine,

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<v Speaker 1>and your body then makes enough of that protein to

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<v Speaker 1>trigger a protection from the virus. So it basically helps

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<v Speaker 1>your body produce its own vaccine dose. Now, the big

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<v Speaker 1>advantage to mRNA technology is the speed at which it

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<v Speaker 1>can be developed, and that's something we talked a lot

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<v Speaker 1>about during the pandemic because mRNA vaccines were developed in

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<v Speaker 1>record time and in the early stages of the pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>When we were talking about traditional vaccines, we were talking

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<v Speaker 1>about years of development time needed. mRNA vaccines can potentially

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<v Speaker 1>be created in months now. Infectious disease experts say that

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<v Speaker 1>the technology could be crucial for responding to future pandemics,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in current concerns around bird flow in the US

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<v Speaker 1>where it's potentially spreading to humans. Don't tell us that,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>That you can't tell us there's another pandemic on the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean this has been a really interesting legacy

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<v Speaker 1>from the pandemic is looking at pandemic preparedness, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>a really interesting perspective for countries now of how ready

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<v Speaker 1>is a country if another pandemic was to arrive on

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<v Speaker 1>our doorstep.

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<v Speaker 2>So what I'm hearing about mRNA technology is that the

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<v Speaker 2>value of it, its prime value is how speedy it

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<v Speaker 2>can be in responding to any new viruses that emerge.

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<v Speaker 2>But now RFK Junior has pulled funding from it. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>neither you or I are vaccine experts. So what have

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<v Speaker 2>the experts said about this?

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<v Speaker 1>It's such an in depth area of science. Let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about what the people who actually not going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about are saying. So I mean, the basic concern is

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<v Speaker 1>that America could be caught unprepared for the next pandemic,

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<v Speaker 1>and experts argue that the rapid development capability of the

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<v Speaker 1>mRNA vaccines could be the difference between containing a new

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<v Speaker 1>virus quickly or facing another health crisis. So Jerome Adams,

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<v Speaker 1>who was the surgeon General for the bulk of Donald

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's first term, he wrote on X this week that

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<v Speaker 1>while he has tried to be objective and non alarmist

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<v Speaker 1>about recent decisions made by RFK jor, quite frankly, this

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<v Speaker 1>move is going to cost lives. And that's somebody who

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<v Speaker 1>was appointed by a Trump administration, which I thought was

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<v Speaker 1>really interesting. There's a leading academic expert on infectious diseases,

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<v Speaker 1>Mike Osterholm, and he said, I don't think I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>a more dangerous decision in public health in my fifty

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<v Speaker 1>years in the business. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>And obviously, Donald Trump, the US President, is the person

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<v Speaker 2>who appointed RFK Junior, so I imagine that he's in

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<v Speaker 2>support of this.

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<v Speaker 1>He is, so he gave Kennedy really significant freedoms to

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<v Speaker 1>reshape American health policy. He's previously said he wants RFK

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<v Speaker 1>to quote go wild on health and food policy. It's

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<v Speaker 1>interesting with Trump because during his first presidency, Trump actually

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<v Speaker 1>horted the development of mRNA technology. It was called Operation

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<v Speaker 1>Warp Speed, and it was this big investment in funding

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<v Speaker 1>to develop COVID vaccines really quickly. At the time, Trump

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<v Speaker 1>called mRNA vaccines a medical miracle. Now, in recent years,

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<v Speaker 1>especially after the pandemic, he has expressed increasing skepticism about vaccines,

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<v Speaker 1>and we can, I guess, look to the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>he has appointed RFK Junior in this position as an

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<v Speaker 1>indication of where he stands on the issue. There's one

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<v Speaker 1>really interesting comment I wanted to tell you about. So

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<v Speaker 1>in the press conference this week with RFK Junior, when

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<v Speaker 1>asked whether Trump is satisfied with his performance in the

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<v Speaker 1>role in the first six months, RFK Junior said Trump

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<v Speaker 1>calls him multiple times a week, always with the same question,

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<v Speaker 1>why aren't people healthier?

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<v Speaker 2>Yet?

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<v Speaker 1>That was kind of cool. I mean, that's that very

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<v Speaker 1>blunt question, one way to describe it. Very interesting. I

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<v Speaker 1>would yeah, yeah, I can only imagine the conversation those

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<v Speaker 1>two are having.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I want to go back to something you

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<v Speaker 2>said earlier, because what you're sa said is that RFK

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<v Speaker 2>Junior is not saying that we should cut vaccines all together.

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<v Speaker 2>From what you said, you're saying that he thinks that

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<v Speaker 2>there should be a universal vaccine. What does that look

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<v Speaker 2>like and is that possible?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's largely theoretical at this stage. That's according to

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<v Speaker 1>scientists and experts in the field. Scientists have been trying

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<v Speaker 1>to develop an idea of a universal vaccine, even just

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<v Speaker 1>a universal flu vaccine, for decades and they haven't been

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<v Speaker 1>able to be successful in that. Essentially, a universal vaccine

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<v Speaker 1>would mimic natural immunity and it would then be effective

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<v Speaker 1>against both coronavirus and flu, but also any other virus

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<v Speaker 1>that we might not even know about yet, and it

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<v Speaker 1>essentially would stimulate the body's natural immunity function. As I said,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a promising idea, but scientists have no timeline on

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<v Speaker 1>how this can be developed and if and when it

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<v Speaker 1>could be available in the wider market.

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<v Speaker 2>And if we were to bring this back to an

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<v Speaker 2>Australian context, is there any signal from the Australian government

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<v Speaker 2>that they will move in a similar direction at all

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<v Speaker 2>in line with the US.

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<v Speaker 1>No signal at all, really, I mean, there hasn't been

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<v Speaker 1>a direct response to rfk's policy changes this week. But

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<v Speaker 1>we can look to the investment in vaccine research and

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<v Speaker 1>roll out as a pretty safe it's bipartisan as it's

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<v Speaker 1>supported by everyone, it's part of our health framework, So

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<v Speaker 1>I can pretty safely say that the government would not

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<v Speaker 1>be looking to follow this path in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>It's bipartisan, I meaning it's supported by basically both sides

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<v Speaker 2>of Parliament or all sides of Parliament.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, But what I did think was interesting is that

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<v Speaker 1>there has been a number of stories that have come

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<v Speaker 1>into the news over the last couple of months about

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<v Speaker 1>the changing attitudes of Australians towards the flu vaccine. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>there's been a steady decline in the percentage of adults

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia who are getting the flu vaccine, and hospital

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<v Speaker 1>admissions from flu have spiked this year by up to

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<v Speaker 1>fifty percent in some states. And at twenty twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>survey published in the Media Journal of Australia found that

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<v Speaker 1>about one in five said they would not get a

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<v Speaker 1>government offered vaccine in a future public health emergency, while

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<v Speaker 1>another seventeen percent said they were uncertain whether they would

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<v Speaker 1>or wouldn't. So we can kind of say that about

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<v Speaker 1>forty percent of Australians are either hesitant or outright against

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<v Speaker 1>a government offered vaccine.

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<v Speaker 2>It would be interesting to know what those stats were

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<v Speaker 2>prior to the pandemic and to kind of look at

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<v Speaker 2>how it's changed since. But I think from everything that

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<v Speaker 2>you've said, it's clear that they kind of are seemingly

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<v Speaker 2>changing attitudes about.

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<v Speaker 1>Vaccinations definitely, and there's a clear delineation from pre pandemic

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<v Speaker 1>attitudes to post pandemic attitudes, particularly in children. And that

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<v Speaker 1>was something that our Health Minister Mark Butler touched on

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<v Speaker 1>in June when he got up and released a new

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<v Speaker 1>national immunization strategy.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you mean children getting vaccinations or the attitudes of children?

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<v Speaker 1>No, so I don't the type of age of children

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about here probably don't have vaccine attitudes just

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<v Speaker 1>yet at six months to three, right, But the attitude

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<v Speaker 1>of their parents to be getting children vaccinated has changed

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<v Speaker 1>and it's kind of going down about one or two

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<v Speaker 1>percent a year. So Mark Butler got up in June

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<v Speaker 1>and released this new national strategy, and part of that

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<v Speaker 1>strategy was a direct opposition to another move that RFK did.

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<v Speaker 1>RFK had announced a couple of weeks before that that

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<v Speaker 1>America would withdraw its funding for GAVY, which is the

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<v Speaker 1>Global Vaccine Alliance in Mark Butler's strategy. He announced a

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<v Speaker 1>three hundred and eighty six million boost in funding to

0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.720
<v Speaker 1>that body between twenty twenty six and twenty thirty. One

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<v Speaker 1>interesting angle that we can talk about in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>the effect of rfk's decision this week is actually the

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<v Speaker 1>opportunities it presents in terms of Australia's capabilities to make

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<v Speaker 1>and even one day export mRNA vaccines. So CSL and

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<v Speaker 1>Maderna they're the two biggest producers of mRNA vaccines in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>They've got large vaccination facilities now in the country. Experts

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<v Speaker 1>say that Australia wouldn't be quite prepared today if there

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<v Speaker 1>was another pandemic to roll out rapidly and universally a

0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.959
<v Speaker 1>vaccine program. So we're not quite at the stage where

0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.720
<v Speaker 1>we would look at exporting it to other countries. But

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<v Speaker 1>if you think about how much America produces in this space,

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<v Speaker 1>if that was all cut, there would be some openings

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<v Speaker 1>in the global export landscape, which is a quirky way

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<v Speaker 1>to look at it, but an interesting to take.

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<v Speaker 2>So interesting such a topical story at the moment, Sam,

0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.840
<v Speaker 2>thank you for explaining it to us. Thanks Billy, and

0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.200
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for listening to this episode of

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.680
<v Speaker 2>The Daily os. We'll be back this afternoon with your

0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>evening headlines, but until then, have a great day. My

0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.360
<v Speaker 2>name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung

0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Caalcuttin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that

0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.320
<v Speaker 2>this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl

0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 2>people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait

0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.640
<v Speaker 2>Island and nations. We pay our respects to the first

0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.160
<v Speaker 2>people of these countries, both past and present.