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Speaker 1: The news that has come through over the last sort

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Speaker 1: of twelve hours is the COLP government have shocked correctional

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Speaker 1: staff across the Northern Territory late yesterday announcing that private

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Speaker 1: contractors are going to be used across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Now the government set to introduce will targeted amendments to

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Speaker 1: the Correctional Services Act for twenty fourteen, so that Act

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Speaker 1: is going to be updated subject to passage through the

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Speaker 1: Legislative Assembly. Now the Commissioner of Corrections will have the

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Speaker 1: power to appoint special officers to supplement the core corrections workforce.

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Speaker 1: These changes are going to include the secondment of interstate

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Speaker 1: officers and the appointment of specialist officers. I've already been

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Speaker 1: contacted by correctional officers voicing serious concerns about the changes now.

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Speaker 1: They say that they are worried that this is the

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Speaker 1: first step in privatizing corrections and they worry that the

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Speaker 1: appointment of special officers is going to mean that private

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Speaker 1: security are transporting some of the territories burst criminals. Now

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Speaker 1: joining me on the show is the Corrections Commissioner, Matthew Varley.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to your commissioner.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for taking the time to come into

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Speaker 1: the studio to talk to us this morning. Now, Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: this is a massive move by the government. Why is

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Speaker 1: this happening.

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Speaker 2: This is a significant change, Katie. You're absolutely right, but

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Speaker 2: it's necessary and it's necessary that it's done quick to

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Speaker 2: help us manage some of the urgent capacity constraints and

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Speaker 2: workforce pressures we've been seeing across our prisons. You spoke

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Speaker 2: with me a think about a week ago, and since then,

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Speaker 2: you know, we continue to see high numbers of prisons

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Speaker 2: are prisoners across the Northern Territory. We've got more than

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Speaker 2: twenty seven hundred people in custody. Watch houses are continuing

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Speaker 2: to be full and I don't see that trajectory changing

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Speaker 2: anytime soon. And not only in prisons, Katie, but in

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Speaker 2: our community supervision area. Our probation and prole officers are managing,

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Speaker 2: you know, some sixteen hundred people on community supervision orders.

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Speaker 2: We're now seeing more than six hundred people on electronic

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Speaker 2: monitoring devices around the territory. This trajectory of growth is

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Speaker 2: outstripping everything we've been able to throw at it. So

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Speaker 2: these are significant legislation changes that are complex and detailed.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to talk through those, but they give me

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Speaker 2: the ability to put more people to a task as

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Speaker 2: we need to deploy.

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Speaker 1: These are massive numbers. I mean, twenty seven hundred people

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Speaker 1: in those correctional facilities across the NT, sixteen hundred on

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Speaker 1: community orders. Did you say yes, that's correct, and then

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Speaker 1: you've got six hundred being monitored by electronic monitoring devices.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as I said, they are enormous numbers. How

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Speaker 1: BIG's the workforce covering off on.

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Speaker 2: All those So our correctional officer workforce in the prisons

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Speaker 2: we have about seven hundred uniformed officers at the moment,

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Speaker 2: slightly less than I think two hundred odd probation and

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Speaker 2: prole offices in about eleven or twelve locations around the territory.

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Speaker 2: And of course we have a whole range of other

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Speaker 2: specialists support staff, including our psychologists, our educators, our aboriginal

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Speaker 2: support workers. So the total workforce including Youth Justice for

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Speaker 2: Corrections as it stands is close to fourteen hundred people.

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Speaker 2: But when you look at all of the specialties and

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Speaker 2: the disciplines and the professions that are required to do

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Speaker 2: the job, you know, we've always said short, we're short

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Speaker 2: staff we're under stretched, and I've never made an apology

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Speaker 2: about telling the truth on that.

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Speaker 1: So what exactly are these changes going to mean from

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Speaker 1: your perspective?

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Speaker 2: So first thing to point out to your listeners, Katie,

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Speaker 2: and to everyone listening, including my staff, is we are

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Speaker 2: not just changing the Lord to give carte blanche authority

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Speaker 2: for me to employ anyone I like. There are some

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Speaker 2: specific provisions there to provide the appointment powers for what

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Speaker 2: we're calling special correctional officers and special probation and prole officers. Now,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't change the requirements under the Act for the

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Speaker 2: appointment of a correctional officer normal as a public sector

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Speaker 2: employee and a probation and parole officer. What this amendment

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Speaker 2: does allows me to do two or three things. One,

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Speaker 2: if I needed to borrow a surge workforce or borrow

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Speaker 2: special officers from another jurisdiction, like you know, another state

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Speaker 2: or territory, and also contract providers to help us with

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Speaker 2: our jobs. And we can provide I guess, appointments to

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Speaker 2: those officers to do specific tasks. We can provide them

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Speaker 2: appointments to limit the scope of their powers to a

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Speaker 2: specific functional task. We don't just give them carte blanche

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Speaker 2: powers across the whole Northern Territory. And it also gives

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Speaker 2: me the power to only appoint that person if I'm

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Speaker 2: satisfied that the person has the qualifications, the skills or

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Speaker 2: the experience to properly perform the functions that I assigned them.

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Speaker 2: That's in the legislation. Now. For example, your listeners would

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Speaker 2: remember Katie. Only a couple of weeks ago, the Police

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Speaker 2: Commissioner was able to lean on and call on the

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Speaker 2: assistance of South Australia Police in Alice Springs. That's a

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Speaker 2: great thing. Police have long had the ability to appoint

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Speaker 2: special constables from another jurisdiction. We don't have that same

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Speaker 2: power in the Correctional Services Act.

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Speaker 1: Look, I don't get the impression from the correctional stuff

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Speaker 1: that I've spoken to that they're so concerned about the

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Speaker 1: secondment of interstate officers. They seem quite worried about contract

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Speaker 1: providers coming in and obviously you know, doing things like

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Speaker 1: transporting prisoners. Also you know, being there at the hospital

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Speaker 1: to keep an eye on a prisoner who may need

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Speaker 1: to go to the hospital, and also those court appearances. Now,

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Speaker 1: the reasons that I've been given by some of those

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Speaker 1: correctional stuff is that they are worried about safety. They're

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Speaker 1: worried about the safety of the broader community. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what kind of contract providers are we talking about here?

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Speaker 1: Is it the likes of Circa, Is it like Wilson's Security?

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Speaker 1: What's it going to be.

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Speaker 2: So let's put a few clear things on the table here, Katie,

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Speaker 2: to dispel some of the concerns that your listeners, the community,

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Speaker 2: and my officers might have. And I'm going to try

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Speaker 2: and be really clear as we step through this. Firstly,

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Speaker 2: nothing changes in the Correctional Services Act. That ultimately means

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Speaker 2: I have to be satisfied that I'm in control of

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Speaker 2: the safety and security of offenders in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: That's number one. Number two is we know our extraordinary

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Speaker 2: hard working offices and workforce out there are doing hours

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Speaker 2: of overtime, huge amounts of excess duties. We're moving prisoners

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Speaker 2: all over the territory all the time. On any given day,

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Speaker 2: I have probably half a dozen prisoners in hospital and

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Speaker 2: on each of those prisoners, we have to have officers.

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Speaker 2: Those offices are taken out of the roster of the jails.

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Speaker 2: On any other given day, Monday to Friday. I have

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Speaker 2: eight officers sitting in the Darwin Local Court operating those cells.

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Speaker 2: We have people on medical escorts, renal escorts, we escort

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Speaker 2: prisoners to funerals. Some of those duties can be provided

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Speaker 2: by other service providers. And again this is not a

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Speaker 2: new practice, Katie. Now large jurisdictions and I'll give you

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Speaker 2: an example. Victoria, South Australia, WA have been doing this

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Speaker 2: for years. This is not new and there are major

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Speaker 2: providers out there in this country. And I'm not talking

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Speaker 2: about you know, Bob Security company down the road. There

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Speaker 2: are major companies who provide qualified, trained and professional workforces

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Speaker 2: to do these tasks. And that's what we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: because that's a worry.

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Speaker 1: I suppose that you know that I'm hearing from from

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Speaker 1: normal punters as well, sort of going, well, hang on

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Speaker 1: a second, is it going to be security like we

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Speaker 1: have at bottle shops and like we've got at shopping

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Speaker 1: centers who are not intervening when people might expect them to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, of course, And I get why people are

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Speaker 2: concerned about that. But that's why we're here to try

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Speaker 2: and explain some of this information and legislation changes and

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Speaker 2: mind you you know, there's been radio commentary this morning

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Speaker 2: by the union that says we're going to employ, you know,

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Speaker 2: a local security company and throw them in the jail untrained.

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Speaker 2: Completely not the case. Let's just be one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: clear on that. We have the ability to approach some

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Speaker 2: of these companies and ask for a proposal, go to market,

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Speaker 2: say this is the services that we want you to provide.

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Speaker 2: How could you do it? Shall wish your qualifications and

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Speaker 2: where's the workforce coming from?

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Speaker 1: So, Commissioner, you are going to obviously you've got to

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Speaker 1: be satisfied with who is going to ultimately do this

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Speaker 1: job and who is ultimately going to be sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, stepping into the corrections realm. Some might be

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Speaker 1: listening this morning thinking that's going to be difficult for you.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're already dealing with a small city or

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Speaker 1: a small community. You know, when you look at the

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Speaker 1: volume of prisoners that you've got and also when you

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Speaker 1: look at the volume of workforce that you're currently overseeing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is why we've had to take these changes, Katie.

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Speaker 2: Let's be honest about that. You know, we have been

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Speaker 2: recruiting hard for two years now, but the growth of

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Speaker 2: that recruitment in our workforce is being outpaced by the

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Speaker 2: growth of people in prison. It's as simple as that. Now,

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Speaker 2: what that means is and I've been really clear about

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Speaker 2: this too in my messaging to our people. No one's

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Speaker 2: losing their job out of this.

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Speaker 1: Are they losing maybe extra over time hours that they

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Speaker 1: might be reliant on.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can't answer that question. But the point is

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Speaker 2: we know that our officers have spent you know, can

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Speaker 2: I say dozens, maybe even a couple of hundred shifts

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Speaker 2: a week on overtime managing all of these movements, And

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Speaker 2: that's exhausting, that's tiring, it takes them away from their families.

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Speaker 2: It also means that those offices are not available for

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Speaker 2: overtime shifts in the prisons, and that's what causes lockdowns

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Speaker 2: and you know, disruptions to programs. We know, and I

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Speaker 2: think I said this to you last time. I've had

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Speaker 2: to close down industry services, I've had to close down

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Speaker 2: education programs. My psychologists can't get into the prisons to

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Speaker 2: do the work they need to do to treat these offenders.

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Speaker 1: So you reckon that this is actually going to help

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Speaker 1: in terms of being able to deliver all of those

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Speaker 1: services to prisoners.

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Speaker 2: Again one hundred percent Codie. And that's the whole point.

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Speaker 2: If I can get twenty thirty forty officers a day

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Speaker 2: back in my jails, that's twenty or thirty forty officers

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Speaker 2: that can be put to the professional task that they're

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Speaker 2: trained to do. And that's what this is about.

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Speaker 1: Are you anticipating that that is, you know, through a

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Speaker 1: private contractor that that is the number of staff that

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Speaker 1: they're realistically going to need, Like that's kind of the volume.

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Speaker 1: It's about thirty forty.

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Speaker 2: I think it's more than that, to be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: And we're going to grow it over time. So what

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Speaker 2: we will do, and when I grow it over time,

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying is to meet the urgent need. I

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Speaker 2: will be going to the market as soon as this

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Speaker 2: legislation passes. And bear in mind, I can't do that,

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Speaker 2: of course, until the law passes parliament, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: the government needs to do its thing, and then I'll

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Speaker 2: have approval to go to the market and say, you know,

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Speaker 2: to these major providers, here's my problem. This is the

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Speaker 2: shortage that we're seeing. These are the tasks that you

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Speaker 2: could potentially help me with. Give me a proposal. Then

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Speaker 2: we'll work through that proposal and it might be that

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Speaker 2: we start small and we scale up over the next

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Speaker 2: few months. But we'll be doing it all with the

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Speaker 2: right procurement, we'll be doing it all with the right legals,

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Speaker 2: and we'll be doing it all with the right assessment

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Speaker 2: to make sure the community is safe and that our

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Speaker 2: officers concerns will listen to.

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Speaker 1: If you have just joined us, we are in this

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Speaker 1: studio with the Northern Territory Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley now Commissioner.

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Speaker 1: Last night we obviously had a prisoner escape the Darwin

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Speaker 1: Watchhouse under the care of Police and Corrections. Thirty three

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Speaker 1: year old Chris Cooper fled sometime between three point fifty

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Speaker 1: in the afternoon and five pm. He was last seen

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Speaker 1: in the Karama area about six point thirty last night,

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Speaker 1: traveling in a blue great Wall ute with the registration

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Speaker 1: CF six ' nine NG. First off, is there any

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Speaker 1: update on that prisoner.

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Speaker 2: What my understanding is, and this is subject to police

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Speaker 2: information and their investigations. They're leading obviously the charge on

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Speaker 2: that location and that investigation. I'm going to let them

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Speaker 2: do their jobs because that's what they're there for. I

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Speaker 2: also need to be really clear that the officer, sorry,

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Speaker 2: the prisoner was in our custody, not police custody. We

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Speaker 2: operate the Darwin Watchhouse, so just to be fair to

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Speaker 2: the police, this is our facility and we as soon

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Speaker 2: as we identified that prisoner being missing around seventeen hundred yesterday,

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Speaker 2: police were notified and we had seen your officers from

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Speaker 2: police and seenior officers from our site on site. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: the investigation into that escape and the apprehension of that

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Speaker 2: offender takes its course, but right now we've got our

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Speaker 2: investigations and safety and security team at the facility this

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Speaker 2: morning commencing a review into that incident to find out

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Speaker 2: what's happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's going to be people listening that are going,

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Speaker 1: how on earth do you get out of a secure facility.

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Speaker 2: Well, the answer to that at the moment appears to

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Speaker 2: be several fire escape doors, Katie, and we'll work through

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Speaker 2: that inquiry. I don't want to jump to a conclusion

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Speaker 2: on what, when and how, but the obvious exit point

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Speaker 2: is the fire escape and that's what the CCTV and

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Speaker 2: other things tell us. I guess it goes to show

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Speaker 2: and in fairness, it goes to show the pressures that

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Speaker 2: our officers are under operating these watch houses. I've always

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Speaker 2: said a watchhouse is not a prison. We're not fit

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Speaker 2: for purpose in that respect, and we don't want to

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Speaker 2: be in watch houses any longer than we have.

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Speaker 1: To be commission of Ali. There's going to be people

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Speaker 1: listening this morning thinking police and Corrections can't stop a

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Speaker 1: prisoner getting out of the watchhouse. How are these new

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Speaker 1: specialist officers going to stop a prisoner at the hospital

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Speaker 1: from maybe taking off, or or somebody taking off while

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Speaker 1: they're at court.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think your answer to that question, Katie, is

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Speaker 2: corrections is a risky business, right. These are prisoners, they

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Speaker 2: don't like being in custody. There's always a risk, and

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Speaker 2: that's why we have to have trained, qualified officers responding

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Speaker 2: to proper procedures. And that's what we train our officers

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Speaker 2: to do. And I think the other important thing to

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Speaker 2: point out to your listeners is some of these providers

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Speaker 2: that we are talking about inter state. These are very

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Speaker 2: large providers that run prisons, run transport escort services. So

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Speaker 2: if you look at Victoria, for example, they've had a

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Speaker 2: prisoner escort and transportation service in place for I think

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Speaker 2: more than twenty years, Katie. They run their own training academy.

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Speaker 2: They actually deliver the same Certificate three qualifications that our

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Speaker 2: officers get to that national standards. So again, this is

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Speaker 2: not about Bob security firm down the road, you know,

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Speaker 2: just throwing me a few guards that I'll chuck into

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Speaker 2: the hospital. Not the case. We'll be setting out those

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Speaker 2: specifications with the providers and it'll be up to them

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Speaker 2: to meet it.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, you know, you've obviously got the union

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Speaker 1: who've been out speaking. I know there are you know,

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Speaker 1: there are correctional stuff that have contacted me that are

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Speaker 1: feeling pretty furious. They're saying that they feel worried about

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Speaker 1: the safety issues that this could present. Well, I guess

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Speaker 1: you know, the big thing that I want to ask

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Speaker 1: is is what do you say to those correctional stuff

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Speaker 1: this morning, because I think you've got, you know, you've

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Speaker 1: sort of got a bit of a juggle right now,

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Speaker 1: right where you've got the union who's maybe saying one thing,

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Speaker 1: you're saying another, and you've got staff who are really worried.

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Speaker 2: And I understand when my staff are worried, and I

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Speaker 2: respect that, and I'm here to answer their questions. Every

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Speaker 2: day of the week. I wrote to staff about ten

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Speaker 2: pm last night. I had to because already some of

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Speaker 2: the misinformation was circulating in social media. Obviously, the government

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Speaker 2: had its planned announcements this morning, but I brought forward

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Speaker 2: my message to the agency last night to dispel some

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Speaker 2: of the misinformation that's circulating, and we will continue to

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Speaker 2: provide information today and in the days ahead. Now, a

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Speaker 2: couple of things, Katie, and I need to be really

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Speaker 2: blunt about this. You asked me, what would I say

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Speaker 2: to my officers. I'd say, your trained professionals, deal with

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Speaker 2: the evidence and the information and the facts that are

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Speaker 2: in front of you. Make your judgment. Don't listen to

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Speaker 2: the narrative that's running around on social media on the

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Speaker 2: radio this morning. Now. To be honest, Katie, I offered

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Speaker 2: the Union of briefing yesterday. I met with them. That

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Speaker 2: meeting lasted less than ten.

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Speaker 1: Minutes because they didn't want it to go further, or

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Speaker 1: you do.

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Speaker 2: I think Miss Early said on the radio this morning

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Speaker 2: that she terminated the meeting. So, you know, my senior

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Speaker 2: executive team and I sat down to provide a detailed briefing.

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Speaker 2: I got through my opening introductions and I pause and

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Speaker 2: I asked for any comments at that point, and they

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Speaker 2: terminated the meeting now eight or nine minutes, Katie.

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Speaker 1: So are you saying that they're not communicating.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I'm saying is I didn't get an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to provide the union with all of the information I did.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to. I had a whole list. I wrote

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Speaker 2: a letter to the unions last night which explains in

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Speaker 2: more detail what you and I have just discussed. But

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Speaker 2: the narrative that's running around on the radio this morning

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Speaker 2: about you know, untrained, unqualified, random security companies is just

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Speaker 2: not true.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'd be really blunt about it. You know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of those correctional officers aren't going to be listening

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Speaker 1: to the ABC this morning. They're not going to care

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Speaker 1: too much what's been said there. But they are going

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Speaker 1: to care what you say to them today, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to They're worried, right and they're pissed. So you

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Speaker 1: know again, I mean, if there is one thing that

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Speaker 1: you can get across to them right now.

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Speaker 2: What is that. What I'd say is read my message

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Speaker 2: from ten o'clock last night. I'm proud of you, I'm

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Speaker 2: proud of us. We have risen to the challenge. We're

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Speaker 2: going to keep doing that. We've got an enormous job

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Speaker 2: in front of us. You know, we have seen more

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Speaker 2: growth in this agency than ever before, and territorians expect

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Speaker 2: us to provide safety and security for the community. But

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Speaker 2: in our motto is also we want a safer territory,

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Speaker 2: but we also want reduced reoffending and change lives. Prisons

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Speaker 2: and Community Corrections is about recidivism, reduced reoffending. We need

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Speaker 2: more staff, we need better run prisons. We need more

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Speaker 2: time in your day to be able to do the

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Speaker 2: true work that you want, which is rehabilitation.

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Speaker 1: Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, I always appreciate your time on

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Speaker 1: the show. Thank you very much for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Katie, Thank you